Email a copy of 'Top grids hold steady in January' to a friend
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Hypergrid Business
Covering virtual reality, immersive worlds, and other emerging technologies
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Hypergrid on Kitely is worth a woot!
always look forward to your stats-)) was getting worried there..hehe
lots of w00ting! thanks Maria for tracking this and your insight into the various grids =)
and double w00t for James Stallings! he was our guy for two years and is wonderful! =)
Agreed re James and thanks and best wishes to Neb as well
Couldn’t agree more… And Neb is still working very closely with James, this is all VERY positive!
I assume jokaydiaGrid stopped reporting after their move. Are they still on the Hypergrid?
They don’t have a stats page up, and haven’t been responding to our emails asking for info. I also haven’t been able to hg teleport in — I’ll log in directly and see if I can teleport out.
Had a quick look at the website. Looks like they’re keeping busy but off-grid for a few more days.
I expect to see Metropolis over come inwz in regions by next month. On the HG as well as they rent regions and let folx bring their own in and connect. Good concept, nice people, a ton of free quality content, very nice-)) And they are big on the Arts-))
Oh you bet! I like their introductory offers for parcels to get the feel for the grid, and then the full 45k prim regions are 26 euros (or 29) and with the US exchange for that it’s very favorable!
I’m finding my self hosted regions there run as well as they did on OSgrid, though for some reason Imprudence 1.7.3 which I use doesn’t seem to like this grid and frequently crashes on teleport landings. Imprudence crashed on teleports in OSgrid too but not as often. The Harper viewer works for me much better.
Yes, the price is good for their rental regions especially considering the size of the grid overall and that it is hypergated, which I especially enjoy doing-))
I only know of the latest imp of 1.4 beta 2…did I miss something??
–regards
My bad, Imprudence 1.3.2 not 1.7.3, the 1.4 music streaming does not work on Mac machines as it has a bug that was not fixed.
oh good-)) thought I had missed something important there…lol
Since they said they froze imp updates-))
OSgrid has been great, but with recent administration changes I am sure they will announce the details of at some point, the head guy appears to desire more of a focus on the TEST grid aspects than the social or other aspects. I’ve already migrated out as have several others, and the long published newsletter, the “OSGazette” will have it’s last issue put out and cease operations due to changes.
It was inevitable there would be changes due to the nature of the grid, and I enjoyed my time there, but it’s become clear the grid is going more towards testing and development, and those with non-standard human/fantasy/furry av’s are not going to be that happy with some of the comments made on LBSA.
That remark is unfounded and you know it. If anything rather than the iron GRIP of a few negative people running LBSA, Hiro is trying to make the grid MORE Community minded rather than run by several people who THINK they own/operate OSGrid. Frankly, I’m thrilled to see it, it’s about time the admins came in and took control of what OSGrid “appears” to be for the incoming newbies. LBSA has been an absolute disgrace as a landing zone for newcomers. Frequently known griefers were wearing “greeter” tags, people sat around badmouthing other grids, they did nothing BUT make derogatory remarks against several viewers that are very well liked by the VW community at large.
As for this non-standard human/fantasy/furry remark, you couldn’t be further off base. Don’t spread rumors because YOU don’t like that you aren’t artificially running the show anymore over in LBSA. Hiro was in LBSA today addressing just this thing because someone came in touting that rumor, and he never said ONE word (nor has anyone else affiliated with the admin team) regarding non-human/non-standard avatars AT ALL (I’d re-read that town-hall meeting chatlog that you didn’t attend if I were you). There WAS a remark regarding child avatars, but even that there was no indication they were about to be REMOVED from the grid. Try getting your facts straight from the source rather than spreading rumors.
I’ve seen a 100% improvement in ALL aspects of OSGrid since Neb and Hiro started working collectively on it. It’s a much more POSITIVE place, and I’m looking forward to the changes.
I have been hearings so many rumors in the metaverse concerning osgrid. Personally, I think it is sad. I like osgrid as well as all grids on the hg. Closed grids now, another matter…lolol
In fact, reading this reminds me I haven’t stopped in to lbsa in a few days….gating over next-))
Rumours are the correct word and there’s no reason for them. OSGrid’s meetings are public and so are the minutes and the forum. There’s no secret agendas and it’s not going downhill. Changes need to happen on an admin level to keep the ball rolling. I agree with Walter in that it’s improving and becoming more proactive as a community.
The comments are not unfounded at all, if there’s anyone who seems to feel they are in control of the grid its the littlefield BDSM slave community, which oddly enough now has their own “newspaper” on LBSA almost copied verbatim in style and all else of the long standing respected OS Gazette. You might explain how a littlefield resident only ten days old manages to get into the newly emptied grid greeter’s group!
I happen to know the two people who were insulted in LBSA over their choice of avatars- ponys, to the effect that “I am not interested in all this flying pony chit on LBSA”
I never said any avatars were going to be banned, just not welcome, and a comment about someone’s
avatar to the effect of “pony chit” doesn’t exactly lay out a welcome mat! I have no opinion on child avatars and made no statement or implied anything about them at all.
I’ve seen the chat log, you can take that comment as you wish, but those two residents have left the grid as a result.
You might confirm or deny what your “newspaper” says about the “rumor” that you might be invited to be on the admin team, and how someone running a BDSM/slave community will act towards other residents, orientations and interests. Indeed, with you involved in an administration team capacity
(having a newspaper now on LBSA sure is a sign of that coming) concerns more than a few people, not only about the direction of the grid, but the community within.
“LBSA has been an absolute disgrace as a landing zone for newcomers.”
That’s not true, a number of long time residents, were hanging out there
specifically to help and greet new people, myself included, and we
didn’t use LBSA to steer them to our BDSM region, nor do we use a “newspaper” placed on LBSA to direct traffic to or promote our own regions either!
“Don’t spread rumors because YOU don’t like that you aren’t artificially running the show anymore over in LBSA.”
Chat logs are not “rumors” and if you can’t read the post contents without coming up with what you think you see “rumored” then don’t waste my time responding to this.
I never ran any “show” in LBSA, I rarely
went there because I don’t like the dark, sterile, futuristic, black
deathly scenery, it’s not a very welcoming or inviting scene.
And it’s no rumor the grid has always been a TEST GRID, that has been it’s purpose, one which has taken somewhat of a “backseat” to the more social avenues going on, (frontend the public sees) and that it is going to revert more back towards a professional test grid with the new changes at the top.
That’s all fine, no problem, things change all the
time, Hiro, Neb, Dan et al have been great and work hard for no pay, but each of us have different purposes and needs, and if one grid doesn’t match that well, or any more, then it’s time to move on and a number of us are moving on, that’s not a”slam” on the staff or the grid, it’s a change of purpose and change of direction.
Just don’t get your curlers too tight Walt! good luck, you’ll need it.
Oh just a reply to this:
“You might confirm or deny what your “newspaper” says about the “rumor”
that you might be invited to be on the admin team, and how someone
running a BDSM/slave community will act towards other residents,
orientations and interests. Indeed, with you involved in an
administration team capacity
(having a newspaper now on LBSA sure is
a sign of that coming) concerns more than a few people, not only about
the direction of the grid, but the community within.”
Misinformed…. How does our group which isn’t even BDSM based (and btw, didn’t see one BDSM remark anywhere in any of our papers aside from articles written by other communities about THEIR lifestyle which we welcome because we don’t discriminate like you do, so you’ve made that insinuation on your own, and now your bullshitting people here with it) putting a newspaper vendor out make us part of the admin team? Were you part of the admin team with YOUR vendor? And unlike you… our group has ALWAYS been welcoming and accommodating to everyone. You on the other hand have been nothing but judgemental (you can see an example of that here) elitist, and negative toward anyone who is differently oriented than you. So before you throw stones, better get out of your glass house. Also, my curlers are just fine, YOU are the one whining on here after throwing a tantrum and quitting OSGrid then badmouthing it here. Oh and as for us looking like the Gazette… we used the same Opensource scripts from Hiro that you used. If you don’t want it to look like that, use your own scripts next time…
Still not got it right have you Walter!
The poster known as Guest is NOT Eryn.
As always, anybody who does not agree with you gets the personal attack flame job instantly. I recall several OSGrid forum threads that the admins eventually deleted because of your inability to control your self and your temper very well.
Never mind, what is happening on OSGrid now is a sad time for many, who have been a part of that grid for a long time, whether they are staying or leaving.
With what I have witnessed there at Lbsa Plaza myself, you are so wrong about the insinuations or rumours flying around, regarding “non-human” Avi’s.
Not that it matters, many have left OSGrid now, for a more relaxed and welcoming environment, myself included.
Enjoy what you have at OSGrid, or any other grid you may be part of people.
Bye Walter, wish I could say it was nice to have known you!
Well it hasn’t been nice knowing you either, and I’m glad to see you go as are many others… Enjoy griefing the new grid… How about not hiding behind “guest” since your so wonderful btw…
Never greifed anyone or any region in my long history with OpenSim in general Walter, wrong yet again.
Never mounted personal attacks against anyone either unlike some I could mention.
You’re doing it right here…. And again, we’ll never know that cause your too cowardly to use your real name.. 🙂
“Misinformed…. How does our group which isn’t even BDSM based (and btw,
didn’t see one BDSM remark anywhere in any of our papers aside from
articles written by other communities about THEIR lifestyle which we
welcome because we don’t discriminate like you do,”
By the way, I do not descriminate, like I said, I don’t care what consenting people do. I don’t care what people do in bed, in private, it’s not my concern if they want to play slave, BDSM, whip, cut, whatever each other or do whatever they like.
As Guest2 says; Bye Walter, wish I could say it was nice to have known you!
“osgrid Contrary to the rumour mill, OSgrid has no intentions of
banning furry avatars. SRLY, banning furrs? They’re the furriest! xD ”
I never started that rumor, not even implied, nor have I heard of a rumor like that, this statement does not translate into a rumor either;
” and those with non-standard human/fantasy/furry av’s are not going to be that happy with some of the comments made on LBSA.”
The exact comment made on LBSA was, as I said earlier; “I am not interested in all this flying pony chit on LBSA (Hiro)”
“As for this non-standard human/fantasy/furry remark, you couldn’t be further off base. Don’t spread rumors because YOU ”
You might re-read the post, because you like to make up stuff as you go, that much is obvious from your comment. I actually stated this exactly:
” and those with non-standard human/fantasy/furry av’s are not going to be that happy with some of the comments made on LBSA.”
How “comments made on LBSA” is twisted by you into anything other than what it says there is beyond me- hurtfull, insulting comments that were made to two people in pony avatars who have left because of it.
That’s not a rumor, nor did I even imply it was a “ban.”
No one got into the greeters’ group unless an administrator sent them an invite. ALL of the people involved in the greeters group were well known and watched over a period of years by Key, Dan and Nebadon. Also, these people not only gave technical support in lbsa to new users, but organized events and games in recreation plaza and generally made lbsa a friendly and pleasant place to visit to most people.
To judge whether or not the recent change is an improvement, one has only to look at the way former unpaid volunteers have gone from organizing games for the grid to being painted as villains. Alternately (more simply) go spend any amount of time in lbsa and see what kind of social mileu littlefield has replaced the old crowd with…
As far as non-standard avatars goes –there are furry avatars available in Wright Plaza and anyone who has any doubts about the vibe furs get while visiting lbsa only needs to grab one of them and spend some there.
Don’t take my word or Walter’s –find out for yourself if you’re curious,
Though, personally, I think a better use of one’s time would be to make an account on hypergrid.org and see what our vibe is like instead… 🙂
” ALL of the people involved in the greeters group were well known and
watched over a period of years by Key, Dan and Nebadon. Also, these
people not only gave technical support in lbsa to new users, but
organized events and games in recreation plaza and generally made lbsa a
friendly and pleasant place to visit to most people.”
They were yes, but the group was recently emptied out, all of the people in the greeters’ group woke up to see that they had received the message about having been removed from the group suddenly during the night.
One of the first invited was someone from the littlefield BDSM community who was only ten days old. They have essentially replaced the OSGazette with a rival littlefield promotional “newspaper” on LBSA by copying the format and layout almost verbatim. As a result, the original Gazette has quit and left the grid, though there may be one final issue to put out.
With the littlefield “newspaper” hinting of “rumors” that Walter may be invited or involved with the administration of the grid, the paper giver being placed on LBSA which is the official landing region, and now Walter coming in here like this acting all defensive, all point towards the same direction, Even a rumor of Walter becoming involved on the back end of administration duties in some capacity and that has a number of people concerned enough to leave the grid and empty out inventory.
I certainly can see him using LBSA, the official greeter’s group, the fact he has a littlefield “newspaper” there, and being involved on the back end of administration in some capacity as a way to recruit more members for his BDSM community and group.
I don’t care about the BDSM/slave stuff one way or the other, but a conflict of interest appears to be developing.
First of all, I don’t see any rumor ANYWHERE of me or any other member of Littlefield being involved in the greeters group or the administration of OSGrid. And unlike you, and we all know it’s you even if you don’t have the good sense to use your real name, I don’t name MY newspaper after the grid because I don’t feel “entitled” to do that like you do. And I don’t know who you think was invited after 10 days into this group but if you mean Amy Storm, she is not only NOT BDSM she isn’t part of our “group” so once again, you haven’t got a clue what your talking about. Of course this isn’t unusual based on how you worked at OSGrid. Hiro didn’t REPLACE the OSGazette, he added a second newspaper to LBSA, if your paper is so good, you shouldn’t be worried about it should you? Your inability to manipulate Hiro is why you are annoyed, and that’s just too bad. What’s wrong if YOU aren’t controlling things it is all bad? THAT is why you aren’t part of the group, and that is exactly why that group was a mess. You felt that ANYONE else that was involved in anything YOU weren’t running wasn’t worthwhile. THAT isn’t a community minded operation. As for your remark about your group being friendly and helpful, fact is everyone HATED LBSA while you were there. You made it unfriendly, everyone was negative and uncooperative, and I can’t tell you how many people I met that would say “ugh, LBSA, no way I will go there”. So don’t blow smoke up everyones ass.
More importantly it’s YOU who threw your little tantrum on here because you didn’t get your way with Hiro. And rather than bullshit everyone on here, why don’t you post ANYWHERE in my newspaper that eluded to, hinted, or made any remark that I or any of the Littlefield staff was going to have ANY involvement in the OSGrid admin group. It hasn’t been offered, and frankly none of us would be doing it because it WOULD be a conflict of interest, and nobody in my group has the time to take on that kind of responsibility anyway. Hiro, Dan, Neb, and Key have matters well in hand and don’t need any of us interfering.
So far, you’ve done nothing but make up things here on this page, and everyone knows it. Nobody has LEFT OSGrid but you and people that were negative anyway. Frankly everyone I’ve run into at LBSA recently thinks the whole situation is an improvement. Let’s see this part in my newspaper where it says ANYTHING about anyone from Littlefield being part of the admin team. The only thing the newspaper says about the re-org at all is I reposted NEB’s forum post. If you got Littlefield being involved from that… your pretty creative. Take your scare tactics somewhere else Eryn.
I’d also like to address this. Get off your high horse about the BDSM community. Littlefield ISN’T a BDSM community. Is it run by people from that community? Yes.. But we have as much as segmented a region off of the mall “specifically” to not mix that community with the regular community. There is NO BDSM content in Speakeasy Dance Club, None in Littlefield’s Main mall, None in 20 of the other regions we run. The only regions that DO have that are specifically listed as such. So again, rather than making things up and lying to people, why don’t you get your facts straight. Anyone who reads the Littlefield Groups information there is ZERO mention of BDSM anywhere. Just because you are jealous that the Littlefield community busts their asses to try to make nice content, entertainment, and regions to visit and the best you were able to do was partially run a greeters group that contained a known griefer, and sometimes if the mood struck you put out a newspaper, don’t take that out on OSGrid or the Littlefield group by making negative remarks. You are leaving OSGrid, leave it at that, and see if you can’t be an adult and not badmouth it on the way out. That kind of badmouthing and negative commentary is EXACTLY what was wrong with you and that previous greeter group.
Umm, Walter dear, ((focus)) I am not Eryn, I had nothing to do with the Gazette, but I do know the staff very well, and I do know why they have closed down and left. I have barely heard of Hiro except by name connected to Opensim development, so I have no reason to dislike. or “manipulate” the man as you claim, I only met him briefly, once!
Littlefield is your slave community, but no matter how hard you separate a group from another it’s still connected through you.
I also never claimed Hiro “replaced” the Gazette, you have a habit of making up imaginary text as you go, I said your littlefield “newspaper” suddenly appeared on the official grid landing region LBSA plaza, and that it all but copied the original OS Gazette format, layout and style.
As the Gazette staff felt pushed out (among other things) they closed it. Congrats, you now have “the” newspaper for the grid.
“Let’s see this part in my newspaper where it says ANYTHING about anyone from Littlefield being part of the admin team. The only thing the newspaper says about the re-org at all is I reposted NEB’s forum post”
You reposted the “rumor” in your “newspaper” and claimed it was a “rumor” then your “newspaper” suddenly appears on LBSA, doesn’t look like the rumor is going to go away with that happening.
” That kind of badmouthing and negative commentary is EXACTLY what was wrong with you and that previous greeter group.”
I was never part of a “greeters” group and I’m not Eryn either,so already you are making erroneous assumptions, but given that you read into and make up stuff as you go it doesn’t surprise me.
Good luck, you’ll need it!
Well it was a rumor based on the fact that nobody made any hard solid announcement that Hiro was taking the admin position…. That’s why it’s a “rumor” and not fact. I wanted to make it clear that NONE of it was solid information yet, and I hadn’t heard anything definitive from Hiro and/or Neb or any other admin… so that makes it a “rumor”… how you turn that into one of us being in the admin group is beyond me… I notice you didn’t mention that part of the article had a photo of Hiro at the top saying the rumor was that he was becoming part of the admin team. How did you get that one of US was becoming part of the admin team from that?
“Littlefield ISN’T a BDSM community. Is it run by people from that
community? Yes.. But we have as much as segmented a region off of the mall “specifically” to not mix that community with the regular
community. There is NO BDSM content in Speakeasy Dance Club, None in Littlefield’s Main mall, None in 20 of the other regions we run.”
http://i.imgur.com/BtIa3RK.png
Your point? (That little notice photo of yours is from my private family group.) Yes, I told my immediate family not to post anything in the forum because of a few trolls there that cause issues for everyone EVERYTIME someon makes any post about Littlefield. A few of the people there made a flame war EVERY time something was posted. So yes, we stopped posting on the OSGrid forum, what’s that got to do with BDSM in the Littlefield group?
“Littlefield ISN’T a BDSM community. Is it run by people from that
community? Yes..
But
we have as much as segmented a region off of the
mall “specifically” to not mix that community with the regular
community. ”
You may have them separated in your mind and on paper, but as the “family group” shows,
A notice titled “Master away until Tuesday”
you signed off as “love. master”
master=slaves as stated, but as I stated I don’t care what people do, but having slaves, BDSM in one area or group, and segmenting that from another group it’s still connecting it all to you and it.
Very good to hear you wouldn’t accept a position as a conflict of interests, but at this point I don’t care, I moved onward and out.
You mean in my PRIVATE group that has 5 people in it? So what? That was no public notice… Maybe you should find better things to do than read notices in peoples private groups?
I am not involved in the Littlefield Community except to buy shoes at Ana Wongs, as does any other woman with style in OSgrid.
I know that people weren’t happy when I became a member of the Greeter Group because I was new to OSgrid. I may be new OSgrid but I have brought to my volunteer role six years of experience in Second Life and InWorldz as well as years of professional customer service experience. Since I started as a greeter, I have been working thirty hours a week to help make OSgrid a welcoming and warm place.
I am not a technical person. Others fill that role. My job is simply to help new people feel welcome in new world.
Many people have welcomed me particularly new users. Others have attacked me, griefed me, and wasted my time with silly pranks. I don’t understand it but I can stand it.
It is my intention to stay and help in whatever way I can OSgrid thrive. Right now, I am fortunate enough to be able to help new users get started. I will do this job as long as I am asked. I can, in completely honesty, tell new users that there is a place for them in OSgrid and that this is a good place to live your virtual life.
“Many people have welcomed me particularly new users. Others have attacked me, griefed me, and wasted my time with silly pranks. I don’t understand it but I can stand it.”
Stick with it Amy-)) Grids need decent ppl to help noobs get settled in, it is a laudable thing to do when done without expectations of personal reward.
My advice, if you do not mind, is to try and continue to be neutral, it is best for yourself and for others.
I think you are doing a wonderful job from what little I have seen personally and that is always a good thing-))
I truly hope you do not let a few ppl bother you who have caused you any problems..be well-))
Sorry about the grammatical errors. It’s late; I’m tired. It’s still true even if my words were a little clumsy.
“Though, personally, I think a better use of one’s time would be to make an account on hypergrid.org and see what our vibe is like instead… :)”
Han-))
oppsss, then inwz losses an additional 16 full regions [/me needs to check into possible jobs as a psychic]=)) and with a current 1121 regions in metropolis and some awesome new folx recently joining, I am really enjoying their offerings-)) y’all come see why…
Brilliant summary … and ‘State of the Nation’ … Many thanks for doing this.
Hello, a friend told me what was happening here. First of all, if you think I posted as guest. Sorry, wasn’t me. Personally, I make my own decisions, and though I was interested in what was happening to OSgrid because of a lot of people there, I made sure I stepped back in time to not get associated with what is happening there now. I have not badmouthed anyone. Hiro and me do not get along, on a very personal level, that’s all. I am not the one assuming about other people’s identity either. So I suggest you stop putting out rumours about me that simply bear no resemblance to any truth.
Please forgives da following blunt and frank observations.
After reading the comments on this blog, I can see why OpenSim has so many problems. Does anyone over there even try to get along and cooperate?
Minethere: “I have been hearings so many rumors in the metaverse concerning osgrid. Personally, I think it is sad.”
I have to agree, Minethere. This is just disgraceful. I don’t hardly even much use OSgrid and I think I say more favorable things about it than I’ve heard here. This just gives the public the idea that OpenSim consists of nothing but conflicting egos. ‘Scuse me for being frank– but that’s how it comes across.
Maria writes a EXCELLENT blog with really good information. It points out strengths and weaknesses, presents the info in an unbiased and fair manner, and gives us a really good idea what’s going on with OpenSim and all the grids involved. She even gives closed grids like Inworldz a fair shake and brings up a really good point: that the active population on Inworldz exceeds grids twelve times its size. What does that say to everyone?
What I see going on here is a lot of tearing down. I’m beginning to think I’m more pro-OSgrid than most others here– and I’m an Inworldz user.
Bottoms line: if you want OpenSim to grow, I think OpenSim users are gonna have to grow up. Dunno why I’m even posting this. I suppose I just hate to see people tear apart something with potential. But I can tell ya this: Inworldz is going to succeed whether OpenSim / OSgrid succeeds or not– because they have their ducks in a row. If OpenSim wants to succeed– I think ya need to at least start gathering some ducks. ; )
Thanks you for listening to this rant. I means no insult; just making observations as an “outsider” looking in. : )
*snoots*winks
“Minethere: “I have been hearings so many rumors in the metaverse concerning osgrid. Personally, I think it is sad.”
I have to agree, Minethere. This is just disgraceful.”
I think all this talk here [and in other places, so I hear but I am not on those other places so I do not know firsthand] is really just simply about some rather major changes concerning the running of osgrid. In any similar situation the same thing, or worse, would happen. Anytime any company changes the way it’s top management runs things there is always bound to be issues. The primary thing for all to see is that osgrid.orgs core is up and running. If something similar happened in a closed grid it would likely mean it would close.
For my part, personally, I am going to just stay away from it until things settle down, as they will. OSGrid still has a ton of people in it and tons of regions, and opensim is alive and well. If a few ppl change to other opensim grids it will not effect the overall good that opensim offers to so many-)) And we can still hypergate all over-))
It is a natural thing when ppl are free, and is the most enjoyable part of opensim….In that, I think we can all agree [or, most of us-lol]…
I agrees with all of that Minethere, yup yup. And I agree with you; I too am staying away from it until it all cools down (I probably was silly to even post here; I just hate to see a good blog ruined by people fighting for no good reason– and Maria did an exceptionally good job on this blog). I thinks rather than people getting all upset over what’s going on with OSgrid, they should be waiting to see what happens. If it blows up– THEN gripe! ; )
In the meantime, why derail Maria’s thread with snit posts? I think there’s a lot she brought up that would be lots better to discuss, and I’m a little disappointed that’s not what folks is discussing. There some real meat in that blog. : )
But like you said, even if OSgrid blows up, people will still have their sims, there are still other OpenSim grids out there, the world will not stop rotating. That’s a pretty realistic viewpoint all in all.
Snoots: You said “But I can tell ya this: Inworldz is going to succeed whether OpenSim / OSgrid succeeds or not– because they have their ducks in a row.”
That may not be true, current trends would suggest otherwise. Consider the following:
• Since September of last year they have LOST 121 regions and 590 active users.
• Mesh is not supported.
• Media on a prim is not supported.
• Pathfinding is not supported.
• NPCs are not supported.
• They do not support the most popular viewer.
• SL vehicle scripts still do not work there (vehicle parameters not implemented).
• They are still in beta and are the MOST expensive OS based commercial grid.
I could go on, but you get the idea. Paraphrasing you, I am not trying to insult them, just making casual observations without the rose colored IW glasses.
o0o that’s better than my list!! grrrrrr-))
I totally understand. However, the point I was making wasn’t about Inworldz succeeding– but OpenSim failing to grow through infighting like we see in these blog comments.
But to address your issues:
* The majority of those “lost” regions were grid-hosted test regions that they shut down because the intensive testing being performed ended. Their subscriber rate has remained relatively stable… especially compared to SL, which is declining at the rate of almost 200 sims a month.
* Mesh isn’t supported YET, but is on their list. Instead of working on toys, they’ve been working on stability– something both OS and LL should have been focusing on all this time.
* Media on a prim is not going to make or break a grid– as is proved by Inworldz popularity. That feature is something they can add whenever they get a chance to do so. Second Life and OpenSim both survived for years without MoaP; I think Inworldz can too. ; )
* According to reports Pathfinding has caused severe lag and performance problems on SL… and I seem to remember that LL “released” their pathfinding-based staff and plans no further development in that area (correct me if I’m mistaken; hard to keep track of all this stuff). So Inworldz is going to fail because they don’t support a kluged half-baked “gaming” LL fail-system on a 3D social platform?
* NPCs– maybe I’m behind the times… but does ANYONE support actually functional NPCs? Does OpenSim? OSgrid? Linen Lab? Again– Inworldz is not a “game” environment. NPCs aren’t needed– because we have real people behind the avatars. To me, that’s the whole point.
* It’s not that Inworldz doesn’t support the most popular viewer. It’s that viewer doesn’t support Inworldz. Before long, most likely Second Life won’t support that viewer either. There is serious talk coming through the grapevine– repeatedly– that LL has plans to shut down all external viewers and require the use of 4.0 when it’s released.
It’s not the viewer you use that’s important; it’s whether the viewer you use WORKS.
Viewers are the biggest security and stability issue with VR. After all, the viewer is half the software. If it doesn’t work, VR doesn’t work. And currently, every viewer on the market has some really severe problems.
Regardless of Viewer, Inworldz is still the most popular grid outside of SL– indicating to me that viewer isn’t all that essential to users of Virtual reality worlds.
Instead– Inworldz is developing their own official viewer and I can tell you from experience… it’s the most stable and functional viewer I’ve used to date. It may not have all the toys and bells and whistles some people want– but I can use it all day long and not crash. I kinda like that. : )
* Regarding vehicle scripts– you may be unaware that Inworldz just completed Phase I of PhysX and that they’re providing free vehicles scripts to their users. They are now working on Phase II… which will include projectile and total vehicle scripting. No, it’s not currently SL-compatible; it’s Nvidia PhysX instead of clunky Havok. Inworldz is not trying to maintain SL compatibility. Second Life has a very bad reputation when it comes to vehicles (does anyone really LIKE Second Life vehicles? And how do well vehicles work on OpenSim, btw?).
Why should Inworldz try to imitate SL? The idea is not to duplicate or clone SL; the idea is to do BETTER. : )
* EVERYONE is still in beta– including Second Life. Virtual Reality has been in a constant state of beta since before I first joined in 2004 and has remained in that state ever since. SL has never left “beta” state.
* Yes, Inworldz charges more than OpenSim grids– because Inworldz is a professional business, with professional paid developers, and they’re creating a more powerful, secure and stable grid than OpenSim– by far. That can’t be done by giving things away for free and with no working capital.
Other grids don’t charge as much because they cut corners and use basic OpenSim software– which isn’t all that stable. They don’t have Phlox, they don’t have PhysX and they don’t have Inworldz stability. Inworldz totally re-wrote their asset server system from the ground up. Quality costs.
Bottom line, despite the points you made above (all of which are true… just incomplete in analysis)– Inworldz *is* the most popular grid outside of Second Life. That tells me they’re doing something right.
On the other hand, OSgrid has some 10-12 times the number of sims of Inworldz, and not near its active population. The point I was making was not insulting OSgrid or OpenSim. The point is that the fighting that has been evidenced on this blog (again Maria– excellent job on the blog)– just might be a reason OpenSim hasn’t progressed further than it has. There’s a thin line between “freedom” and anarchy.
An old truism: “A house divided against itself cannot stand.”
“NPCs– maybe I’m behind the times… but does anyone else support actually functional NPCs? Does OpenSim? OSgrid?”
Kitely does, and very well. I’ve got two NPC packages available on ohn freebies world, one which i added just today (move, talk, animate, sit on objects, …). Lot of fun really.
Nope, three identical posts say you’re not blocked from this blog. ;D
(Don’t worry– it’s happened to all of us).
Wondering: how do those NPCs work on Kitely and what do they do? Are they prims, or programmable avatars? Would enjoy seeing those in action; I always like new and progressive developments.
But case in point: if Kitely is the only grid that has “NPCs”… how does that mean Inworldz is failing? Wouldn’t that mean OpenSim is failing as well? I don’t think NPCs will make or break a grid– as Inworldz popularity indicates. If users want NPCs, they can play any computer game. : )
TY 😀
They are more like programmable avatars. If you right click them, you get the same options as clicking on a real avatar. If you visit the ohn freebies world, SW area, you can see the one i just put out. It’s configurable, you can define a long sequence of actions for the NPC to take, in a notecard. It walks, talks, is animated a couple times, sits on objects. With the default appearance, it wears a freebie AO so its walk doesn’t have to be the duck walk. You can make an NPC look any way you want by dressing up that way. NPCs can also touch objects, run, fly, shout, whisper, I forget whatelse. You can use listens and radars to script interactivity.
You can take a copy of the package I put out too, its copy/modify/transfer, so you can get the scripts and use elsewhere. This version can also be configured to rez objects on which the NPC can be instructed to sit as part of the action configuration. Out of the box, default configuration has it rez 3 such objects that are used in the course of the action sequence.
ETA: I should also say that these things are done using the standard OSSL NPC functions, so these should be functional on any opensim region where the owner of the controller is the owner of the region.
Uh… okay, but…. ; )
From what you describe, the very same thing can be done on any grid– including Second Life, Inworldz, OSgrid and as you say, any OpenSim grid.
All that’s required to create such an NPC is to set up a bot and script it. We can code in an AO, speech, movement, activities, flight, you name it. We can script in radars and sensors and interactivity and… well… NPCs. In truth I have an “NPC” of me in ElvenMyst region that’s been there for months, standing behind the tavern bar and greeting people. Folks are regularly fooled by it; one person mentioned talking to it for 5 minutes before realizing it wasn’t me. 😀
So I guess what I’m asking… is how Kitely differs in that aspect… and why someone claimed that Inworldz “doesn’t have NPCs”. I’ve seen bots used in RP from even early days of SL.
(Mind you reason I’m asking is not to dis Kitely; I applaud new grid companies. It’s just that in the “Inworldz faults” list that was provided– I didn’t find one valid claim and now it seems like “no NPCs” is invalid as well).
I don’t have a dog in this fight 🙂 I was solely responding to your question: “NPCs– maybe I’m behind the times… but does anyone else support actually functional NPCs? Does OpenSim? OSgrid?”
Yesh, no offense intended. I was just curious– based on that description– why someone claimed Inworldz doesn’t have NPCs. Been reading a lotta spurious claims lately and sounded like you were in-the-know on how NPCs worked. I much appreciate your answers and wish Kitely all the best. : )
I don’t know if IW supports NPC’s or not since I am not on that grid anymore but I know that the base opensim.ini file had to be changed for me on my regions that I created to allow NPC’s. It takes changing the security setting or something such as that ( I can’t remember just what change I made in the .ini) .I know that 3rd Rock Grid hasn’t done it yet but they may. Many OpenSim grids do support it though.
NPC’s are not the same as bots. But to the person viewing them it would seem that way.
It might be possible that IW isn’t allowing it because of security risks. You would have to ask the team there about that.
Also you should google about NPCs for OpenSim. There is a ton of information out there now about them. They can be fun and it’s another way to be creative but to me they are not a “needed” thing for a grid to have. (but then, I am not one that “needs” physics either so I am not really the average user).
I was impressed with the numbers you listed for IW. For them to have a closed grid and regions that people “pay” for it’s pretty amazing that they have the numbers that they do. What I mean is their active user numbers and region numbers are higher than most grids that offer free regions or allow people to connect their own regions.
So even if they have gained or lost regions I think that everyone can agree that it’s an impressive grid as it stands right now. I don’t see that changing.
Thanks for the info Linda. Yeah, based on Ohn’s response that’s the conclusions I reached. NPCs are interesting and maybe even fun… but it’s not “essential” to grid performance. Nice toy, but I can do without new toys in order to have lag reduced to almost zero. 😀
Maybe once the essentials are in place Inworldz will consider NPCs (a bit down the road)… if as you say security issues and server strain can be negated. If not, I know they won’t.
Like you I can also do without physics. I do think they’re kind of essential to grid operation, but the only thing I really use them for is driving vrooms and throwing pies. 😀 mwhahahahahaa
Oh wait, I guess I can’t do without physics. Food fight parties is fun. 😀
And thanks for the observations on Inworldz. That’s all I was really trying to point out. I know the discussion got a little side-tracked, but my purpose in my original post here was to encourage OpenSim users to fight a little less and cooperate a little more. That backfired when those users started sniping at me and Inworldz, but I shoulda seen that coming.
I happen to like OpenSim and kinda cared about what it did… or I wouldn’t have posted in the first place. But suddenly I found myself defending Inworldz against yet more groundless claims. I’ve seen that before (from the same people) and shoulda just bowed outta that one from the very start. I think this blog and the stats all speak for Inworldz well enough. : )
“I don’t have a dog in this fight :)”
hehe ohn-))
“So I guess what I’m asking… is how Kitely differs in that aspect…
and why someone claimed that Inworldz “doesn’t have NPCs”. I’ve seen bots used in RP from even early days of SL.”
The NPCs that I was referring to are something entirely different.
OpenSimulator provides a set of OSSL NPC functions for creating and manipulating NPCs. One advantage of this approach is that no external client is necessary for a NPC, and NPC appearances can be saved in OpenSimulator Archives (OARs).
The bots you are thinking of requires a client to run them.
“From what you describe, the very same thing can be done on any grid– including Second Life, Inworldz, OSgrid and as you say, any OpenSim grid. ”
Only if they support the following NPC commands:
osNpcCreate
osNpcGetPos
osNpcGetRot
osNpcGetOwner
osNpcLoadAppearance
osNpcMoveTo
osNpcMoveToTarget
osNpcRemove
osNpcSaveAppearance
osNpcSay
osNpcSay (with channel)
osNpcSetRot
osNpcShout
osNpcSit
osNpcStand
osNpcStopMoveToTarget
osIsNpc
osNpcPlayAnimation
osNpcStopAnimation
osNpcTouch
osNpcWhisper
As far as I know, Second Life and InWorldz do not support any of these commands.
Okay, I see your point. However we come down again to “Inworldz isn’t compatible with OpenSim”. As far as I can tell, every one of the above things can be done in both SL and Inworldz by using a different method (with perhaps the sole exception of load and save appearance. I’ll also admit it’s neat they’re run server-side… although I would wonder what extra strain that puts on the server).
So while I’ll readily admit having these as specific functions is kinda nice… and I’m not arguing with you at all … I don’t think anyone can truthfully say “OpenSim has NPCs and Inworldz doesn’t”. That specifically is what I was curious about. Thanks for the info. You helped clear that matter up. : )
“how does that mean Inworldz is failing? Wouldn’t that mean OpenSim is failing as well?”
No, because Inworldz charges a monthly fee per region, opensim has no monthly tier charges. If you want 15 sims on Inworldz it’ll cost you maybe $900/mo., if you want 15 sims on opensim you can run them at no monthly tier cost, the comparison is $900 v/s $0 with an optional donation in the amount of your choosing.
And yet despite that… Inworldz still remains the most popular grid. Some people, Guest, are evidently willing to pay for quality.
Your point is not lost mind you. I understand what you say and it’s not invalid. But free sims do not an active grid make… obviously.
“NPCs– maybe I’m behind the times… but does anyone else support actually functional NPCs? Does OpenSim? OSgrid?”
Kitely does, and very well. I’ve got two NPC packages available on ohn freebies world, one which i added just today (move, talk, animate, sit on objects, …). Lot of fun really.
Okay, fourth try. Am I blocked from this blog?
“NPCs– maybe I’m behind the times… but does anyone else support actually functional NPCs? Does OpenSim? OSgrid?”
Kitely does, and very well. I’ve got two NPC packages available on ohn freebies world, one which i added just today (move, talk, animate, sit on objects, …). Lot of fun really.
lol ohn-)))))) I found you sometimes need to give this blog comments section a few minutes for it to post [and sometimes even longer].
And I really need to make some time to go to your kitely region and pick up some stuffs!!! especially your NPCs-)) thx for all your time doing this for us kitely lovers…
omg /me has red cheeks!
that last one was fun to work on, and i was doing it to get ready to make some fun NPCs for Hax Nuit.
Ack! Sorry for duplicate posts ><
Here’s how to avoid duplicate posts: never, ever post anything on the Internet. That’s the only way I know of. ;D
LOL! That’s an option too I suppose, but so lonely!
“* The majority of those “lost” regions were grid-hosted test regions that they shut down because the intensive testing being performed ended. ”
Saying a majority is a bit disingenuous.
just a point to some actual numbers i keep-))
on Sept 18th inwz had 808 private regions…on Jan 20th it had 749 private regions. This is a reduction in full paid [one assumes] regions by customers of 59 regions. This is a pretty significant drop in regions for a grid that says it is popular. It is also a rather significant percentage drop with a grid so small. One of the other numbers inwz shows for all to see on their splash page, that of their scenic region counts, is also considerably down. My numbers show as being 199 scenic regions on Sept 18th and on Jan 20th as 172, a loss of 27.
Both numbers, combined, being 86. The combined difference is 113 during that time frame witrh inworldz sponsored regions being 27 less [and an insignificant number of their mainland regions –5–].
As inwz recently increased it’s stated -inworldz sponsored regions- from 180 on Jan 10th to 196 on Jan 20th, and from watching those number closely over time, they fluctuate quite a bit.
These are real numbers anyone can see. If I were to even use Marias own stats, inwz has lost regions, and they are NOT just the “grid-hosted test regions”.
The other items don’t really concern me except to make note that as you say “you may be unaware that Inworldz just completed Phase I of PhysX and that they’re providing free vehicles scripts to their users. They are now working on Phase II… which will include projectile and vehicle scripting. No, it’s not SL-compatible; it’s Nvidia PhysX instead of clunky Havok.”
And I would like to highlight the phase 1 part and that inwz will have it’s OWN physics engine, while the rest of the metaverse will be different. And be scripted different.
I personally do not care if it is better or not or one engine or another, and who can really even say that as it has not even been fully implemented. I do know that the phase 1 has caused several –fixes– to be rolled out. Inwz believers will see that as positive, I see that as them not fully testing it before roll out to their guinea pigs.
I do, however, totally agree with you comments concerning opensim in regards to “So I was just asking people… what is your purpose here? To support OpenSim or tear it apart? Seems to me the later is the case.”
Unfortunately, some ppl see this as an opportunity to take jabs at opensim, when that is not the issue here at all.
–regards
I keep stat information too. And what you may be unaware of is that the particular drop you’re discussing has nothing to do with Inworldz becoming less popular. It had go do with one Inworldz landholder who held a large number of sims– and had a real life health and financial emergency force him to abandon all those sims– which can happen to any grid. Stuff happens. It doesn’t mean Inworldz isn’t popular; the stats prove it’s very popular… moreso than OSgrid (namely, double the number of active users and the largest number of subscribed regions outside of SL).
Does that mean no one ever leaves Inworldz? No, of course not. Some people leave VR entirely, or they get tired of being patient and return to the party-zone they engaged in on Second Life, or like that one user, their finances turn upside down and they have to give up luxuries like VR. That does not mean Inworldz is failing. A person who knows how business works watches trendlines, keeps track of background info, looks for cause and effect. I’m sorry– the cause and effect you’re seeing is based on imagination fueled by your hatred of Inworldz, not what’s actually going on. Not being mean… just laying it out there. Maria presented the proper picture of Inworldz in her blog above.
You should also be aware that for some time (as I already said) Inworldz hosted some 150 regions (as it stated in its splash page) as test regions. So yes, when they shut down a large number of those sims, stats *seemed* to drop– but it was primarily a matter of them shutting down company-sponsored test grids. The number of subscriber grids has remained relatively stable… especially considering the economy.
Right now Inworldz is showing 201 sponsored sims (that’s a lot)… I’d guess most of those being PhysX test sims. They show 768 subscribed sims– which would be about average. But they’ve added to that number 174 scenic regions– which equate to 44 full regions (174 / 4) — for a functional total of 812 paid full regions. I think that’s a pretty decent figure.
But to be totally fair– since other grids often count as “regions” sims where they only allow 6000 or so prims– (or because it’s based on free OpenSim and has no dev or operational costs to speak of– charge a pittance for a sim)… then I have to judge that Inworldz is entitled to play the same numbers game and honestly claim a total of 942 paid regions. So I’d say they’re doing far better than some give them credit for.
Regarding OpenSim stats, I might point out that although OSgrid continually increases and has well over 10,000 sims… their regular user base is half that of Inworldz (with their 942 regions). *Number of sims do not tell the story*. I hear you regularly refer to the success of Kitely– and I have nothing against Kitely at all. But their user base is far lower than Inworldz and the reason there are so many sims there is because free is free– and people will always take advantage of free.
To be honest from my standpoint– all OSgrid stats mean is that someone else has decided to play with a free product. They may still own land on Second Life. They may be a regular Inworldz landholder– they’ve just decided to hold an OSgrid region as well. Those stats don’t really mean anything as far as VR trendlines are concerned. The number of OSgrid regions does not equate or even correlate with the number of active and dedicated users. From what I can see, the vast majority of OSgrid regions go largely unused most of the time.
As a note– Inworldz just hit 70,000 registered users today. That also doesn’t mean much– except that people are really checking out Inworldz. As that grid becomes more powerful– those registered users could well become paying users. Time will tell.
Regarding physics… no, Inworldz isn’t going to be compatible with the “rest of the metaverse”. That’s what “making it BETTER” means… leaving less-efficient systems behind. But as a point, OpenSim and Second Life together does not comprise the Metaverse (check the definition). And when you get down to it, once OpenSim incorporates Intel’s BULLET physics system, they would be rather foolish to try to maintain compatibility with SL. I mean, why would anyone want to? It’s not like new scripts can’t be written or existing scripts updated. Scripters can do that. : )
I’ll mention again– Inworldz is offering FREE vehicle scripts. What more can anyone ask? Anyone at OpenSim have a problem with free?
Already, even without PhysX fully installed, some of Balpien Hammerer’s vehicles work far better than anything ever seen on Second Life. So again– why should Inworldz waste time retaining compatibility with a decade-old dinosaur system? It seems to me they’re doing pretty well on their own… despite cutting the OpenSim and SL strings quite some time ago.
Did no one here read Maria’s article? See the title? “Top Grids Hold Steady in January”. That includes Inworldz. The article also points out that Inworldz has more active users than the next two grids combined. To my understanding Inworldz has more paid regions than any other grid outside Second Life. It seems pretty obvious to me Inworldz is heading the right direction and is ahead of the rest of the pack.
Minethere: “I do know that the phase 1 has caused several –fixes– to be rolled out. Inwz believers will see that as positive, I see that as them not fully testing it before roll out to their guinea pigs.”
That’s what I mean about constant negativity and anti-Inworldz bias, Minethere. Are you aware how software is written?
Have you noticed how Microsoft sends out regular updates to Windows? Have you noticed other software companies such as Sun Microsystems (JAVA) and Adobe (Adobe Reader) sending out regular updates to their programs? That’s how software companies work. That’s how software works. As with the weather… there are just too many variables to have 100% foresight. The key is to catch and fix the problems as quickly as possible… which Inworldz is certainly doing.
The very fact that Inworldz has performed several rollouts since the introduction of PhysX means they’re on top of unforeseen problems… and YES, that is a positive thing. They did extensive testing on the BETA grid, but that’s different from rolling out a major update on an entire 1000-sim grid. There were bound to be issues that would need addressed that were impossible to foresee.
Minethere, I try to look at all grids without bias. My preference for Inworldz doesn’t mean other grids are bad or without value. I like Sim on a Stick. I dislike Linden Lab as a company but parts of Second Life are pretty incredible. OSgrid is terrific; it offers people a chance to own a sim who might not otherwise have a chance… but it doesn’t have the power and stability of Inworldz. I call ’em as I see ’em, but I try to avoid seeing monsters under the bed. I think your personal feelings against Inworldz is clouding your ability to see the reality of what the market is doing– and that’s why I wind up answering off-base claims at 1:30 am rather than getting to bed on time. ; )
Us dwagons do needs our beauty sleeps, you know. XD
“Yes Minethere, I keep stat information too. And what you may be unaware of is that the particular drop you’re discussing has nothing to do with Inworldz becoming less popular. It had go do with one Inworldz landholder who held a large number of sims– and had a real life health and financial emergency force him to abandon all those sims– which can happen to any grid. Stuff happens.”
Unlike with the elfclan inwz blog or inwz forums, only Maria can remove comments here and she has shown herself to be more interested in open discussion than hiding realities, for that, I do really appreciate her-)) I hope she never changes how she deals with comments here.
Since only Anyraya Braveheart, the largest landowner inwz, and my ex-boss, is the only one there with that many regions, I cannot imagine who you think this “Inworldz landholder who held a large number of sims” would be. Bob Peterson and Roger Claremont had many regions [but less than Anyraya] and I expect if they left [I havent looked recently] then many of those would have gone to other land barons or been purchased by individuals. If not, then obviously, if it is even them, they did not have enough renters on their parcels for anyone else to be interested. I did note that Dexler Estates has less regions but I do not watch their numbers close enough to post them here. I do know, however, that Anyraya, who had 89 full private regions and 51 scenic regions when i left her employ in July, now states in her profile [as of a few days ago, anyways] that she has 70 full regions and 8 scenic ones. And she, is not a he-)) I also know that she has many regions very sparsely rented, as was the case when I worked for her, also.
I also know several ppl who have left inwz and their regions, and I know of several more who are about to leave.
“I’m sorry– the cause and effect you’re seeing is based on imagination fueled by your hatred of Inworldz, not what’s actually going on. Not being mean”
Your belief in this, as well as several others of your beliefs concenring that grid, cloud the realities…I am sorry, not being mean-)) I do not HATE anything, but I do dislike dishonesty and unfairness, especially when it comes to virtual reality, where we should all, really, be having fun, as I do now in the free and open metaverse-) The reality is that I thank Beth for doing what she did to me [and so does my friend sunbeam magic] as it pushed me to explore, and now, enjoy, vws as they should be-)) Inwz is a very very small part of anything having to do with my virtaul life [and virtual life in general]-)) Since several ppl left inwz due to their havng principles and not liking how I and others were treated I would say that is a very good thing-)) My blog on the matter was done simply so that I could point people to the facts of the matter when asked.
“You should also be aware that for some time (as I already said) Inworldz hosted some 150 regions (as it stated in its splash page) as test regions. So yes, when they shut down a large number of those sims, stats *seemed* to drop– but it was primarily a matter of them shutting down company-sponsored test grids. The number of subscriber grids has remained relatively stable… especially considering the economy.”
My real numbers previously posted already show this as untrue. And your last comment “especially considering the economy.” flies in the face of grids that are increasing in region numbers. As Harriet stated, inwz pricing is, and is becoming more, to highly priced for regions than the open metaverse costs. This is only just another reason that grid is losing region numbers-)) [and not the full list of reasons]
“But to be totally fair– since other grids often count as “regions” sims where they only allow 6000 or so prims– (or because it’s based on free OpenSim and has no dev or operational costs to speak of– charge a pittance for a sim)… then I have to judge that Inworldz is entitled to play the same numbers game and honestly claim a total of 942 paid regions. So I’d say they’re doing far better than some give them credit for.”
This simply shows you are not aware of simulators as they relate to assets and servers. In point of fact, those scenic regions of theirs are extremely limited –because– of these realities to 5k prims [and partly why the price of 20 usd for them]. All closed grids have their own different business models and they are entitled to them, just as inwz is. All this talk is really based upon individual closed grids business models. In point of fact, the 3rd Rock grid reduced their region costs quite a bit several months ago due to a realization of the current trends in vws [see here http://3rdrockgrid.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=303&Itemid=84%5D. Others charge less due in part to the amount of servers they wish to run, whether or not they wish to have them hosted professionally, how many regions they wish to run on simulators and such things.
“Regarding OpenSim stats, I might point out that although OSgrid continually increases and has well over 10,000 sims… their regular user base is half that of Inworldz (with their 942 regions). *Number of sims do not tell the story*. I hear you regularly refer to the success of Kitely– and I have nothing against Kitely at all. But their user base is far lower than Inworldz and the reason there are so many sims there is because free is free– and people will always take advantage of free.”
This, again, shows your lack of understanding other grids business models. Kitely is totally unique and must be read about at their website and forums and such to more fully understand it. Heck, I understand you not understanding it, I have a hard time understanding it, and I like them, and have an open mind…lol
As well your lack of understanding of opensim and how it all works is apparent. Where closed grids such as inwz rely on parcels sales [and their resulting region rentals] to –drive– the land business aspects, this is not how opensim and osgrid work at all. Once ppl are free of closed grids and find out they can run their own regions themselves with basically only their ineternet costs, then some will have several regions up. So a person can have, for example, 3 regions but only still be –one person [like me with my current 3 regions in opensim]– in Marias stats reporting. This part of the true freedom of opensim…that ppl can do this, create and build in total freedom, save the oars to their harddrives [which inwz also does not do], share that with others as they wish, and be free-)) And since we can share our lands with friends without much thought to costs, it is a truly wonderful thing-)) I have a growing number of friends in my land group who drop in from time to time…
However, I do think they should continue on their course as they see it, and those who like that, should continue to stay there and promote it…
I think Minethere… I understand most of this all too well.
I’m done here. I think at this point it becomes obvious why Inworldz decided to break away from OpenSim… and why they’re proving to be successful (despite bogus claims to the contrary). It’s very evident you’re visibly dead-set against Inworldz. Further “discussion” is pointless. No offense intended… I just have better things to do than banter with someone whose intentional purpose is to discredit what all evidence shows to be the top grid outside of SL.
So ‘scuse, but we’re done.
“Are you aware how software is written?
Have you noticed how Microsoft sends out regular updates to Windows? Have you noticed other software companies such as Sun Microsystems (JAVA) and Adobe (Adobe Reader) sending out regular updates to their programs? That’s how software companies work.”
Yes, because they won’t sit down and fix their bug ridden code with more security holes in it than Swiss cheese, there’s far too much code and too many millions of lines of it to go over and correct all the errors, bugs and mistakes, so they send out PATCHES (updates) all the time to close up one hole or another that allowed people’s computers to be hacked, hijacked or ruined by worms, virus or hackers. Microsoft/Gates made a fortune on their software and all, that’s why Gates is the richest man on the planet.
JAVA is the latest one that was suddenly discovered to have major security issues bad enough they told people to disable JAVA entirely in their viewers for now. It won’t be an update they send it, it will be another PATCH to fix the flaws, and that’s really how software companies work.
“I personally do not care if it is better or not or one engine or
another, and who can really even say that as it has not even been fully
implemented. I do know that the phase 1 has caused several –fixes– to
be rolled out.”
And the thing is, as far as physics goes… percentage wise how many residents, those over the age of 20ish are even interested in doing hard core long term combat and shoot-em-up activities requiring bullets and physics with damage in-world in the first place? I would bet it’s a very small percentage of the whole.
Opensim doesn’t even come in the same ballpark for realism, speed and action for environment, weapons or anything else compared to gaming consoles with commercial combat type software you buy- “Grand theft auto” for example, or any of those military type combat games where you earn scores for kills and mayhem.
Opensim and SL are like a Bugs Bunny cartoon by comparison to those games.
Sure, having an in-world “gun fight” and blowing things up can be fun, for about 15 minutes maybe, but it quickly loses it’s novelty and gets stale and boring. It’s the same with “dances” using pre-determined scripts that loop your av in a three or four second long routine over and over infinitely, they are fun for a little while, they CAN be fun, but for the most part people are not there to actually “dance” they are in IM’s or chatting while their av loops and loops.
Saling ships,driving cars and flying planes using scripts and physics has it’s own issues beyond just which engine is used. The biggest headache is sim borders, and crossing regions that may be set private, and that’s inherent to the whole process unless you own a fifty region megaregion, but that brings it’s own problems and bugs.
Untill a better way is found to handle region crossings, a lot related to the physics like cars, planes, ships will be limited to what you can do on a 256×256 region (especially if you are paying a high monthly tier and can only afford ONE or two regions)
“And the thing is, as far as physics goes… percentage wise how many residents, those over the age of 20ish are even interested in doing hard core long term combat and shoot-em-up activities requiring bullets and physics with damage in-world in the first place? I would bet it’s a very small percentage of the whole.”
oh I do agree, I only rarely mention it at all due to it being stated so often as such a big deal for inwz. I personally can do without much of it, and do…tho a couple days ago I did have some fun shooting at my friend eris with some cool stuff I got at Lani Globals region in osgrid-))
And I have a friend who does a lot of various physics types scripts and vehicles, who talks to me on it a bit…
Minethere, scuse me for blowing away biased claims with actual data, but: http://www.gridmonkeyz.com/stats.html
that shows to sept of 2012, i only spoke to numbers i actually saw from sept 18th until jan 20…in any case, i said all i wanted to say on the matter…ppl can make their own observations and decisions from that-))
Ohn: Thank you so much for your generous NPC offer, I can’t wait to work with it. For me, this is the best thing that has come out of this discussion 🙂
Mine: Thanks for your observations, you covered those points nicely.
Snoots: I understand that you love InWorldz and that is great. I cannot standby though when you make false claims about it.
You said: “Inworldz is going to succeed whether OpenSim / OSgrid succeeds or not– because they have their ducks in a row. If OpenSim wants to succeed– I think ya need to at least start gathering some ducks. ; )â€
The fact is, it’s InWorldz that is missing ducks, lots of them. They are lacking many of the features that OS currently supports. They are still struggling to catch up to where OS was years ago while SL and OS continue to advance. It has been a heroic effort of one man but one man cannot do what a team of individuals can do together – whether they are paid or volunteers.
You said : “Other grids don’t charge as much because they cut corners and use basic OpenSim software– which isn’t all that stable. They don’t have Phlox, they don’t have PhysX and they don’t have Inworldz stability. “
As Mine pointed out, Phlox and PhysX (still not completely implemented, tested or proven) are unique to IW, that is not necessarily a good thing. I believe they have painted themselves in a corner and now are not compatible with either SL or OS which could put them at a disadvantage.
As for stability, this month alone there have been at least five bug fix roll outs that I am aware of (0.8.0 R2741, R2753, R2770, R2800, R2811). That is not stable, that is buggy beta at best. I found those releases by looking at their forum that you mentioned. All is not rainbows and unicorns and butterflies there.For instance, I found a 794 page thread with 7,931 entries and 109,486 views entitled:
Post Your Region Down Notice HERE
Stable? I think not. Sing InWorldz praises if you want but please don’t claim it to be superior to OS until it actually is.
“Mine: Thanks for your observations, you covered those points nicely.”
ty:P-))
The numbers parts are really the important thing to me, I sell RAW terrains in the metaverse, so when region numbers decrease in a grid I make little to no sales. It is only with grids that are increasing in region numbers that I have any possibility of getting the bulk of work. I watch several grids closely in this regard as it determines, since there are so many [and only so much time], where i should spend my efforts.
In many cases I can simply rely on Maria’s monthly stats, but some I prefer to keep my own notes-))
So altho, i do in fact have personal and proper issues with that grid, my focus on their declining region numbers is my business aspect-))
“As Mine pointed out, Phlox and PhysX (still not completely implemented, tested or proven) are unique to IW, that is not necessarily a good thing. I believe they have painted themselves in a corner and now are not compatible with either SL or OS which could put them at a disadvantage.”
It is my belief [and was even said someplace or other, i forget where] that inwz forking off from an early version of os base code and ‘doing their own thang’ that even if they were to wish to someday join the rest of the free metaverse and allow hypergating, that this would be difficult to impossible. [and no, that comment isn’t meant to start a separate debate on the pros and cons of HG, closed grids can remain closed grids, for all I care].
“As for stability, this month alone there have been at least five bug fix roll outs that I am aware of (0.8.0 R2741, R2753, R2770, R2800, R2811). That is not stable, that is buggy beta at best.”
You should join their mantis for an interesting look at bugs those of us in the rest of the metaverse never have to concern ourselves with-))
btw, Harriet and I are not the same person…lol…I always use my same avie name in comments and in grids, it’s the –right– thing to do-))”
Mine is “Guest” as DIscus has no settable privacy feature that allows it’s users to set a modicum of privacy so nutty people can’t stalk, slam and follow them everywhere they post if they happen to disagree with the author.
Discus allows anyone to read the author’s entire posting history and links to every post ever made unless certain steps are taken.
yes, i know….i was just stating for my own personal preference-)) if ppl wish to post as guests, that doesn’t matter to me-))
Anyone is welcome to look at my disqus posting history. I’d recommend doing so at 2am, when you’re struck with insomnia 😉
han-)) lol
I claim what the facts show Harriet. Minethere is dead-set against Inworldz, seeing only the negative no matter what the grid achieves. If that’s how she wants to conduct her VR life… that’s her loss. Regarding your post, sorry, all I see is personal opinion, generalities and re-hashing points I’ve already addressed and answered.
NO grid is perfectly stable. ALL grids are in beta-stage. That you and Minethere keep harping on such issues tells me neither of you are looking at the overall picture. You’re both nitpicking– and I see no need to keep answering the same claims over and over.
You accused me of making false claims. No, my claims agree with this blog and with other available evidence. You stated Inworldz is the “heroic effort of one man” and that Inworldz has been trying to catch up with OpenSim and Second Life– which indicates to me a lack of knowledge about how Inworldz operates. Inworldz has two paid professional programmers and two other Founders as well as a buncha volunteers. It’s by no means a one-man show. Considering it’s the most stable grid I’ve seen, there is no indication of it needing to “catch up” with anyone– nor trying to.
You and Mine have the right to believe what you wish. That’s not going to change the stats or reality itself. ; ) I use Inworldz, I keep my eyes open, I can see what the market is doing. Beyond that, believe and claim what you wish. Time will prove what turns out.
“I claim what the facts show Harriet.”
I already told you what the facts show me, need i remind you again?
The fact is, it’s InWorldz that is missing ducks, lots of them. They are
lacking many of the features that OS currently supports. They are still struggling to catch up to where OS was years ago while SL and OS continue to advance.
You dismiss the missing features as being inconsequential.I couldn’t disagree more. A commercial grid cannot remain viable and competitive by charging the highest prices for the fewest features. In time, customers will come to realize that and seek other alternatives.
I was not going to comment further on this thread, and won’t to snoots anymore as i was never really responding to him anyways, but to point out to anyone interested, the true facts. I already knew he is a big inwz supporter and the only value in commenting to him personally would be to attempt to try and help him see the light, which is useless. I have seen this attitude in a few other inwz supporters.
Fortunately, Harriet, many ppl realize and have sought other alternatives.
My primary concern is to try and help, for my small part, others from being fooled and wasting their time. I cannot tell you how many ppl I met in my jobs there who made accts and rented lands only to learn quickly all was not as promised, and would be gone by the next time their rent was due, so often that Anyraya and I often commented on the lack of manners-)) I have those IM logs.
I went to the time and trouble to post some real numbers in this blog and they are there for ppl to see who can-))
I would much rather see ppl who are looking to find a way to leave sl find their way to the free metaverse and spend their efforts there. They will be happier, more free, and likely stay. The real issue is that when those sl folx go to the trouble, time and expense of going to inwz and get disillusioned they often go back to sl and forget all about the metaverse. I have seen this happens dozens of times personally, and the obvious total accts posted by inwz to the actual reality of active ppl there, attests to this happening in larger numbers.
Granted, dozens is not really all that much, but I am of the feeling that if I can open the eyes of only one more person, I think that is a very good thing to do-)) And truly, we are none of us talking about large numbers of ppl, but incrementally helping ppl to see the value in opensim and the metaverse as it is evolving. And evolving it is…yes, humans are still humans, and there will always be egos, bruised egos, strife, and misunderstandings, but that is part of evolution, also-))
As well, it is difficult for those who end up spending more time in any closed grids, as most of us know concerning sl, to leave our inventories and the associated real money spent to obtain them. So we must teach them they do not have to waste that time in the open metaverse. They can save all they do in oar files [and backup to some online resource], nothing is ever gone again, their time is not wasted, nor is there money, in a closed grid where they cannot get their much desired content, that they paid real money for, out.
The real problem is that so many sl ppl really do wish to find a way to continue in vw but need good reasons to leave sl. Costs should be highlighted, as they are, but also true and correct information needs to be –out there–. Ppl such as snoots wish to cloud the facts with disinformation, and I do understand that they like a certain grid [some promoting them to complete senselessness], but that is not what I think the rest of us should all be focused on.
There is currently a big push being done to help merchants find value in joining kitelys new market coming soon. Now, kitely is currently a closed grid, but they promise to HG rather soon after the market gets going and with content protections they have in place or will have in place with perms settings merchants can do. I see this as very positive for the future of the metaverse, and worth looking into. Kitely is on the cutting edge in this regard. This makes it valuable in the regard to getting merchants to venture out of sl, this is VERY important for the future of the open metaverse, VERY IMPORTANT. Many sl lovers simply will not leave sl when they cannot buy their favorite merchants content, kitely is the best choice for that to happen. From that launching point we will all benefit as kitely opens to the HG and those ppl explore the greater metaverse. I see this as a very bright future.
Good to meet yet another person whose eyes are open, Harriet-))
“After reading the comments on this blog, I can see why OpenSim has so
many problems. Does anyone over there even try to get along and
cooperate?”
I hate to break it to you, but you will find exactly the same things happening on SL, Inworldz, Avination, and anywhere else people from different walks and locations congregate together. Just because it’s OpenSIm doesn’t mean it suddenly becomes a Bible school or monastary, you’ll find as many intolerants, bigots, griefers, hate mongers on OpenSIm as SL or any other grid, as many people who have personal conflicts over a variety of issues express those things. You may not see them in a 50,000 person forum or grid because it’s so big you can’t see it all, but it’s guaranteed the same things happen everywhere.
I frankly don’t know how the “furries are about to be banned” rumor morphed from an observation about a negative, rude comment about two residents’ choice of avatars.
This statement is not “furries about to be banned” and I can’t fathom how anyone can assume anything of the sort from this, and then spread it enough the grid had to twitter a “correction”:
“…and those with non-standard human/fantasy/furry av’s are not going to be that happy with some of the comments made on LBSA.”
As I’ve said, the grid is fine, the admins are fine and I personally have no issues with any of them, they are making required changes at the top, and making changes which some do not agree with. Like the new car buyer who switches from Ford to Chevy or Toyota for their next car because they like something better about an alternate brand, residents of virtual grids have the same choices to explore and move onto something different or something better, or something that better matches and suits their needs or wants.
That’s not a “slam” on a grid any more than deciding to try Toyota this time instead of buying another Ford.
“tearing down” is a favorite American past time, you see it every day in sports, that’s where people learn it from. You always see fans of one team slamming the opposing team in every way, calling them inferior, wimps. In some cases it’s with good reason, customer complaints over bad service are not “tearing down” or”slamming” and as they say in business, one dissatisfied customer tells fifty friends how bad it was, the satisfied customer rarely tells more than a few, be that as it may, the dissatisfied customer is the one who tells everyone and makes it known far and wide. It doesn’t matter why that person is dissatisfied, what matters is they are, and feel they were cheated or treated poorly.
Guest, you make several really good points. I didn’t intend at all to “single out” OpenSim. My purpose in posting is because OpenSim actually has a rep for infighting… not only users but its coders and designers. I see such regularly and… since OpenSim is free and should have avid and loyal support, I kinda wonder why people always seem to be arguing.
There is the occasional upset user on Inworldz, and of course the occasional drama queen and disgruntled user / enemy. Like you say, that happens everywhere. But by and large the Inworldz forums are very friendly, open and supportive of the grid. I’ll agree that Linden Lab forums often seem like troll/flamer boards (or at least they used to. I don’t much pay attention to them any more).
I was just making an (apparently lame) attempt at getting OS people to stop the petty bickering and trolling. From where I’m standing, it doesn’t seem to be doing the project much good.
Note: after finding out about the Hiro Protagonist issue… I recants the above posts. I can see why everyone is upset and why it spilled over into this blog. Please forgives a dwagon who was just trying to help everyone get along… but who in this case had my good intentions misdirected by being unaware of what is obviously a major issue for OSgrid. I’ll shuts up now and go eat cookies in a corner.
Thank you Snoots, you are very kind, but you couldn’t have known the whole story to judge this by until now, you did not have the entire picture so you made assumptions based on what was here at the time, very easy to do and see things differently.
You are kind in return. I hate seeing dissension on a community board and sometimes jump in with both feet t try to “fix” it, but in this case didn’t realize that dissension had a very real center. I hope this gets fixed for everyone, ‘cos above all a leader needs the confidence and trust of the community he serves… and from what little I’ve read here it seems this one hasn’t earned that trust. Maybe some folks can get with him and get him to change his attitude (not to mention manners) for the good of the grid.
Opensim is a platform that even Inworldz is based off of. Osgrid is NOT Opensim but like Inworldz uses the platform for its services.Opensim and Osgrid are not interchangable terms.
Just thought I would clarify that Snootz, as through all your posts here, you seem to have that confused 🙂
and nice meeting you @ the fun party in Metropolis-))
Nopes, I got that one down. Why you thinks I confuses them? Dere is nothing confusing at all about OSGrid… uh, I mean OpenSim. : )
When I say “OpenSim”… I use it as a generic term to refer to the OpenSim community in general– devs, users, whole bunch… in regard to the development of the software itself, not the grids involved. OSgrid being the largest of the OpenSim grids… and seemingly the center of OpenSim activity… tends to represent OpenSim quite a bit. Individual OpenSim Grids (Inworldz, Avination, Kitely, 3rd Rock etc) factor in only so much as they are involved in the development of that software– because otherwise they’re individual entities.
Inworldz doesn’t factor in much at all because while they began based on OpenSim years ago, they’ve changed so much of the code that even OpenSim users realize Inworldz is no longer “OpenSim”. However I think Inworldz is honored to be factored into OpenSim grid reports because it helps us all see how far all these worlds have progressed outside of Second Life and helps represent the overall progress users have made in forming our own worlds.
Inworldz is somewhat of a unique community to itself, but I think Inworldz users (such as myself) are often very much interested in how the pure-OpenSim community is doing and how the project is progressing. I know originally Inworldz tried to be part of the OpenSim project but didn’t find the cooperation they required to become a full-bore business (at that time a major portion of the dev community was dead-set against OpenSim being used in for-profit business.) So they were somewhat forced to strike out on their own and go their own way, but I feel pretty certain they don’t enjoy seeing problems “over here”… as we’re all part of a great adventure to expand beyond the corporate hand of Linden Lab. (Did I just coins a term: “The Great Adventure”? I likes dat. :D)
We are all part of The Great Adventure. So most of us I think care strongly about what happens with all parts of it.
OSgrid and OpenSim are two different things, but OSgrid seems to represent the OpenSim project quite a bit more than any other grid out there… as it truly reflects the OpenSim concept. It uses pure OpenSim code, and pretty much any OpenSim operator can plug in to it. The users are very much aware of OpenSim development and often comment on / are involved in that development. It seems that what goes on at OSgrid often strongly effects the OpenSim project. That’s prolly where the confusion comes in.
I doubt that it represents it now. There are hundreds of other grids out there now to represent what OpenSim is. I hope that people don’t view OpenSim based on OSGrid. Especially not now.
I would encourage you to explore other OpenSim grids. OpenSim is now being represented by great educational grids and businesses as well as a ton of social grids. Maria has a grid list https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/statistics/active-grids/
KK tyty. : )
I was done commenting on the furry ban issue, or so I thought, when a local log from LBSA was given to me today which quite clearly shows any “child” av’s will be gotten rid of. A comment about another furry Hiro claims is just playing a “child” by hiding behind cartoons. Then it appears with that comment that furry avatars are just child avatars hiding behind “cartoons,” with that in mind it’s no stretch that if the furries are considered playing children hiding behind cartoons, and the goal now stated is getting rid of child avatars from OSgrid, then indirectly furries will come under the very same criteria since they are after all, just playing children by hiding behind “cartoons” according to Hiro.
Here is the shortened log, some of the names are xxx’d out for their privacy, others are not in order to show two admins there, and that there were several people in this public area/local chat:
[04:48 AM] Amy Storm: hi, Jumbo, welcome to OSgrid
[04:48 AM] Bwild Parx: hi HIro
[04:48 AM] dan banner: hey hiro
[04:49 AM] Jumbo Core: hi
[04:49 AM] dan banner: welcome to OSgrid jumbo
[04:49 AM] Hiro Protagonist: Howdy Howdy 🙂
[04:49 AM] Amy Storm: there you are
[04:49 AM] Hiro Protagonist: Franzi, what brings you back after soooo much drama
[05:08 AM] Mercalia Beck: and some ppl here hate them
[05:09 AM] Franziska Bossi: i am a child av allso
[05:09 AM] Hiro Protagonist: listen dumbass; nobody here hates kids. We dont hate adults. We dont even hate those who are sick enough to be adults in kid avs. But we wont tolerate them, just the same.
[05:09 AM] Hiro Protagonist: any other questions?
[05:10 AM] Hiro Protagonist: and for the record, that is exclusive of certain exceptional people who struggle with adulthood due to mental differences
[05:12 AM] Hiro Protagonist: the fundamental issue is that adults in child avs, for any reason, do not appear nor represent themselves as adults otherwise; and when a true child encounters them, they feel safe in the company of another child.
[05:13 AM] Hiro Protagonist: If you cant see the problem with that, you are even more dense than I had imagined.
[05:15 AM] Hiro Protagonist: Jake is another adult masquerading as a child
[05:15 AM] Hiro Protagonist: and hiding behind cartoons to accomplish it
[05:15 AM] gggggggg: Jake has never done anything wrong
[05:15 AM] Hiro Protagonist: hahahahah, thats hilarious
[05:17 AM] yyyyyyyyyy: i alleways playing as child ava because i feel young and it nothing others then my fantasy to live in place
[05:17 AM] Hiro Protagonist: this isnt the place for you then
[05:22 AM] Hiro Protagonist: no, I want to get the child avatars out
[05:22 AM] Hiro Protagonist: I either will, or I’ll shut the place down myself.
[05:22 AM] xxxxxxxxxxx: well that wont be soley decided by u i think now we know your true colouts i think do as i say or else
[05:22 AM] Hiro Protagonist: actually, right now, it can be
That’s a pretty revealing post. Makes me want to go right over and support that region, yessir!
Scuse my ignorance on this one, but exactly who is Hiro Protagonist (besides a character in Snowcrash)… and how can I stay far, far away from him? What he gonna do next, ban TINIES? In truth the name sounds familiar (from SL long ago somewhere) but I can’t quite place it. Brain glitch. ; )
Hiro is the new OSgrid ADMIN…
Oh good lord. I did have a brain glitch. The article mentioned him yups. Okay after reading that post, I can see why everyone is upset. That validates what I’ve heard about OpenSim infighting– but I will agree there seems to be very good reason for it at this point and I humbly retract what I said on this post about such things. Please let me offer my sincere condolences… honest.
The attitude shown in that conversation is just… inexcusable. If I were a regular OSgrid user I’d be extremely upset right now. Since a good friend of mine is… I feel for you. The only thing I can say is: it’s good you can transfer your regions elsewhere.
My my my… is OSgrid doomed or is a major revolution being planned as we speak?
I’ve talked to Maria (since she knows most of the grids) and asked for a little list of grids that allow people to hook up their regions. I know that people can with Metropolis Grid (I have and I hear many others are). And AuroraScape (an aurorasim based grid) is due to open Feb. 1st and will allow hookups. And I believe that FrancoGrid and Craft both allow it too if I remember right about what Maria told me. People have a lot of options now. There is no need for anyone to be anywhere they don’t want to anymore. That is the plus side to OpenSim growing so much. 🙂
Nice to know Linda!
I was looking into Craft before I joined Metro. I think Craft has a 1-region limit for connecting your own region to them; and they want you to have a good connection (I don’t know how they test or measure that). I chose to connect my region to Metropolis because they don’t have any connection limits that I’m aware of.
Hello Han. For people with home connection (like adsl) in Craft we allow one region, that is correct, we do not ask people to have a good connection nor to be 24/7 online. This because adsl connections for technical reasons (latency time) can’t bear more than 5 or 6 avatars in a sim. The midunderstanding can have come out from the fact that if you have something more powerful than an adsl connection at home (fibre?) we can allow more sims in grid. For people with dedicated servers hosted by a provider usually we do not have limits.
Interesting insight into connection speed there..ty-))
Hello Licu -as you see, I was not sure what your policy is at Craft-world. Thank you for taking the time to post and clarify it for us. 🙂
I am glad it has put the pieces together for you properly, now you understand this whole thing is not just some petty grid bashing or trolling, and why the comments. I totally agree, those comments are extremely distasteful, and for someone at the head of a grid to make judgements about people’s mental states and all just because of an avatar type they choose to play with in a virtual world is very mean spirited.
There are some people who should stay in the back end of things running them, not on the front end as a public admin figure/spokesman.
Getting rid of the child avatars or he would shut the grid down if he can’t, that alone shows he may not be officially designated as the admin, but he’s one step from it.
I don’t know if there’s to be a “revolution” per sei, but I know several people who were regular, steady donors are now ending that, and at least one has cancelled his paypal subscription yesterday to stop the regular automatic donation payments to OSgrid. I don’t know what the dollar amount might be it could be $100/mo or it could be more from the three-four I personally know who said they will no longer donate funds.
Thanks for your comments.
After checking further into all this– especially after reading the Townhall meeting transcription– here’s some dwagony assumptions I’ve arrived at:
* Hiro is not a diplomatic person. Even in the town hall meeting he said some pretty non-pc things.
* However it became obvious at that meeting that in the quote above people were intentionally baiting him– and had been doing so for some time. In such instances, PC sometimes falls to the wayside and some serious butt-kicking is in order.
* It appears that circulated conversation was heavily edited and taken out of context (not by present company) in an effort to discredit Hiro. Well, it succeeded. But rotten way to conduct VR activity.
* Hiro appears to be a competent tech and is capable of running OSgrid. He’s simply not politic or diplomatic.
* He obviously has some incorrect ideas– namely that paying 25% of the costs entitles him to 100% of the say-so. However…
* He also admits that he’s jumping unwillingly into an unforeseen and unpredictable situation and decisions have to be made NOW. The details can be ironed out later. He’s right about that much. When one is thrust into a position of leadership, in a situation people perceive as an “emergency”, often one person has to call the shots until things stabilize.
* It was obvious at the townhall meeting that people came there with venoms in their fangs and lynch ropes behind their backs. To be honest I felt Hiro held his temper pretty well– but still non-diplomatic and didn’t take the feelings of others into consideration. However, he was put on the defensive right from the start.
* There were 3 or 4 people at the town meeting who had some brains. Some were counseling Hiro. Some were summarizing the meeting to its basic points. I liked that.
* Hiro is right in that he’s worked with this system for 6 years and that deserves some credit. That doesn’t mean he has the right to seize that credit “by force” so to speak– to the point everyone is upset. Like they said, he needed to be more diplomatic.
This was the best summary of the evening:
[15:49] Kahn Khalim: Ok, I have been mostly silently sitting back and listening to all this.. Roundup: 1 the plazas with not tolerate ageplay of any kind, 2. your sims will run normally as they do, if there is a complaint, about ageplay, it will be delt with upon a case basis with sim owner. 3. donations are sufficient as of now, but not hindering you to do so. Hiro needs more diplomacy. the world is round, and Bade plaza needs a refit. did I catch it all?
I think the funniest statement of the evening:
[16:01] Talla Slade: I think Kahn made a good request Hiro, A public statement posted to Hypergrid Business perhaps is in order don’t you think?
[16:02] Hiro Protagonist: I’m not going to stoop to posting on that rag of a blog
mwahahahahahaha <— ebil laugh. Da guy could be a Ork.
Yeah, he could use a little more diplomacy.
The meeting notes are a couple of hours tops of what this is all about. I think you should hold off on your assumptions until you know more about the background of this man and his plans for the future of that grid. Also there is no way for you to know why these people may have come to the meeting with their claws out. They may have had good reason.
You got something totally different from reading those meeting minutes than I did for sure.
Oh I’m not assuming anything; just making observations. (I know I know I said “dwagony assumptions”… dat was a joke. Did sound like a joke? Nope? Oops…). The only thing I got out of that meeting is total chaos and fighting. I saw Hiro apparently ignoring what people were trying to say to him, and people apparently ignoring what Hiro was saying in return. What I got out of all of it was “two hours of wasted meeting” apparently, ‘cos it didn’t seem anyone was actually there to discuss anything. Was more like who could say da same thing over and over da longest. 😀
I know nothing about Hiro except that a lotta people seem a bit ticked off. The other thing I know is I’m staying away from OSgrid for a while until / if all this cools down. ;D
You are entitled to have opinions on this snoots, but you are still looking at this whole thing through a proverbial pinhole camera without seeing the entire picture or history, and basing your opinions on a couple of logs and some posts. It’s really unfair to yourself because you aren’t getting the complete picture.
Unless you are willing to do a detailed research over a time, and talk one on one with a number of people involved, you might reserve commenting about all this for now because you just don’t have all of the facts and information at hand, that is not your fault but you are an “outsider” so to speak looking in through a pinhole and you aren’t getting all the infor mation and facts, history and whatnot.
Suffice it to say the deed is done, those who have left have left,those who feel the grid or administration no longer meets their needs they have the choice to leave or stay, the grid will stay up or it will close down, or some new ownership could come along, none of us have a crystal ball Snoots and at this point none of this really matters, nor does rehashing this all out here serve any real purpose now. What is done cannot be undone, what will happen is going to happen and it’s time to let the thing go unless some new major development happens, speculation, backstabbing, and anger isn;tgoing to get anyone anywhere fast, agreed?
I agree that backstabbing and anger isn’t going to get anyone anywhere– which is the focus of my comments. But for the rest of your reply no, not agreed at all. Here’s why:
Freedom of speech means just that– the freedom to express one’s views. It’s not limited to a certain class of people, not limited to a specific education or knowledge level, not differentiated between new/experienced or young/old. It mean’s the right to observe and comment– and that right is inherent not only in our laws, but in principle.
I disagree with the “pinhole camera” illustration. I’m no newb to virtual reality– nor to life itself– so at the very least what I have to offer is an “outsider’s” viewpoint of general conduct of a number of people in what appears to be a bad situation. In simple terms what you’re telling me to do is “butt out” (but tactfully and politely)… and while that may be how you’re feeling… I think an “outsider’s” viewpoint may be useful at this time.
Because what I’m seeing right now, as an outsider, is a community being split over the attitude and actions of one man… which as an “outsider” makes me question the strength of the community. The guy hasn’t really even *done* anything yet that I can see except shoot off his mouth a few times (and I’m not condoning that at all. I’ve agreed he needs more diplomacy)… and people are abandoning OSgrid.
So whether I’m right or wrong, my observations valid or invalid, I think maybe they deserve at least being posted so people can get a viewpoint different from their own. Because what I’m seeing more than anything, what I saw at the Town Hall meeting, was quite a bit too much of people on both sides trying to force their own opinions on others– and not being willing to listen to others opinions. Maybe Hiro is at the center of the riot and bringing that about, but as an impartial observer (which is maybe what is needed right now) I think the riot need some calmer heads.
As far as I know Hiro may be a rotten, ebil person with the power to destroy OSgrid on a whim, I dunno. Yes, maybe more research is needed on my part (if I have two weeks of free time to research all this)… but what I’m commenting on is what I see now, yes, as an “outsider” (mind you, with 8 years hard core VR experience)– and what I’m seeing is a “community” that is already fracturing over… what?
If you’d like to help me understand better by spelling out the issues in a little more detail… I’d welcome that. Learning more is da spice of life. : )
“I disagree with the “pinhole camera” illustration. I’m no newb to
virtual reality– nor to life itself– so at the very least what I have
to offer is an “outsider’s” viewpoint of general conduct of a number of
people in what appears to be a bad situation.”
You can disagree as you wish, but as I said, you don’t have the personal involvement in this situation, and you don’t personally know the people involved to be able to accurately judge the whole situation armed with all the facts and intimate knowlege of the background.
None of us here are going to sit down and hash out the whole scene for you and all the backgrounds on this, but I can say you are off base on many things and can go ahead and continue to believe what you like and make comments based on poor information and lack of the background facts, but at this point it doesn’t matter because those of us who have left have found alternate grids free of the drama and bs at the top end and are busy forming and enjoying our new community, groups and all else.
Good luck, you’ll need it!
Yknow, what I think is funny is this: I started in this conversation commenting that people were infighting and not getting along. You just said I don’t understand the situation and don’t know enough about things to judge the situation. But then you admit OSgrid contains “drama and bs at the top end”d… which to me kinda says I was right in the first place.
So I may not know what I’m talking about… but seems like I pegged it right on da nose. Sounds to me like OSgrid is falling apart– and it’s primarily due to drama and infighting. ;D
I said you don’t know enough about the people involved and how the grid has been stable for a long time, now it’s destabilized, the credit card for the grid and the non-profit incorporation is set to expire and have expired respectively. That means without a firm, legally incorporated entity running this, and with stable long-term finances, one could go to log in tomorrow and discover there’s nothing to log into.
Then to have the soon to be grid adm threaten to shut the entire grid off on his whim if he can’t “get rid of” so called “child” avatars (and since Jake the furry was designated as playing achild hiding behind a cartoon, it shows furries are in the same light as “child” avatars by him too) is beyond having to put up with.
All of the drama is caused directly by the recent changes at the top end, the administration changes, that is why people have left and more will be. Read the logs again, the comments and insults by Hiro, right there is the public drama, there’s more but that’s the public view of it. That’s not drama by the residents, and it’s not “infighting” it’s reality.
If you try running a business and taking donations, you must have a registered non-profit corporation for tax purposes, and it must be valid, the non-profit incorporation is under the name of one of the now unreachable heads and has expired. What does an expired non-profit incorporation mean? what happens if the IRS does an audit because of donated money flowing into an expired non-profit corporation?
As the credit card used to pay for the services is about to expire (also in the unreachable former head’s name) then where does that leave the ability to cover the bills, on someone else’s creidt card?
What happens if there isn’t enough donations to cover cost next month, does it simply shut off for the month?
Thanks but no thanks, I just want to be able to log in and enjoy my evening with friends, I don’t need the top end drama or the unpredictable sword of damocles hanging over the enjoyment of using my regions, groups, friend list and content.
Those are really good points, even from a business standpoint. Far as I can tell, valid, every one of ’em.
And… he said a furry was a child avatar in cartoon disguise? Wow. I wonder how he feels about dwagons? ‘Cos I can guarantee him most dwagons is under 5 years old… as are most tinies. But no Orc with a sense of self-preservation would wanna mess with one. 😀
http://elfclan.ning.com/profiles/blogs/da-dwagon-and-da-orc-a-true
Okay, here’s another log then.
http://pastebin.com/t1YR6N0i
lkalif, perhaps you’d prefer that I pull my
donations too, and we just go ahead and shut the thing down
Wow. I’m stunned by reading that. Thanks for posting the link. It will help people to open their eyes. Knowledge is power.
Do you see the problem now Snoots, and why the comments here about all this? Hiro is not “officially” announced as the new grid admin, he has been working in the background while Neb, Key and Dan ran the grid, but now with the changes at the top, Hiro is taking charge after Neb’s real life became much busier per the article above.
Too bad you felt the need to X out some peoples names but had no problem putting Hiro’s out there. Very tactful and honest of you. It’s also easy to make things look alot worse when you remove dialog from the original text. There was much more dialog there than you present here.
It’s called “editing for brevity”. The orginal log file can be found here: http://www.gridtalk.de/showthread.php?tid=906&pid=8169#pid8169 for anyone who wants to read it.
Thank you Han, you said exactly what I was about to post in reply, brevity was the key component because no one wants to read a book length log of unrelated side chatter to read the points. I removed the names to post the excerpts here only because I was unaware the unedited version was posted on gridtalk, and because I thought the persons not directly involved might not appreciate their names plastered in the text here.
I left Hiro in as he is the new admin aparent and his words are the problem, so obviously his name would be included since the comments stating he wants to get rid of “child” avatars or shut the grid down if he can’t, and his ridiculous comments about furries such as Jake “playing a child hiding behind a cartoon” shows he considers furries to be another form of “child” avatar.
Given his obsession to rid the grid of an arbitrarily designated “child” avatar, and the comments about Jake the furry playing a child hiding behind a cartoon, furries will be next on the “hit list,” anyone can see that from the text.
All the “child” avatars I’ve ever seen around look like shrunken adults, their faces don’t even look like a child’s face, so the criteria I suppose will now be one of height, all avatars below a certain arbitrary height could be considered a “child.”
This is discrimination at it’s finest.
Going back to furries with this comment:
“[05:12 AM] Hiro Protagonist: the fundamental issue is that adults in
child avs, for any reason, do not appear nor represent themselves as adults otherwise; and when a true child encounters them, they feel safe in the company of another child.”
That can be applied by him to furries, and by his other comments about Jake, it certainly is, for if a furry is just playing a “child” hiding behind a cartoon according to Hiro, then the alleged “real” child encountering a furry would be inclined to consider they ran into their favorite cartoon character in 3D and feel “safe” hanging out with “Bugs Bunny.”
The better question is why would real children be on such a grid in the first place, and how many 5 or 8 year old children would or could log into a mature (adults) test grid like OSgrid in the first place.
“It’s also easy to make things look alot worse when you remove dialog from the original text.”
Oh yes Walter, it’s easy to make these comments look “worse” by removing the dialogue! there is no context these comments would be acceptable or welcoming by a grid admin stating them in a public region to people standing there, directly threatening to shut the entire grid down, slamming Jake the furry (and furries by default) and attacking people who happen to enjoy wearing a child avatar or role playing as one by calling them “sick”:
[05:09 AM] Hiro Protagonist: listen dumbass; nobody here hates kids. We dont hate adults. We dont even hate those who are sick enough to be adults in kid avs. But we wont tolerate them, just the same.
05:13 AM] Hiro Protagonist: If you cant see the problem with that, you are even more dense than I had imagined.
[05:15 AM] Hiro Protagonist: Jake is another adult masquerading as a child
[05:15 AM] Hiro Protagonist: and hiding behind cartoons to accomplish it
[05:17 AM] Hiro Protagonist: this isnt the place for you then
[05:22 AM] Hiro Protagonist: no, I want to get the child avatars out
[05:22 AM] Hiro Protagonist: I either will, or I’ll shut the place down myself.”
Good luck on that grid Walt, you’ll need it!
this just up-)) http://virtualchristine.com/