Regions grow, usage drops with the heat

The land area of the top 40 OpenSim grids continued to grow, with the number of regions now at 25,783 — an increase of 535 regions compared to the same time last month.

This is another record high month for OpenSim region totals.

Total regions on the top 40 OpenSim grids. (Hypergrid Business data.)

Total regions on the top 40 OpenSim grids. (Hypergrid Business data.)

ScienceSim saw the most growth, with 512 new regions, almost doubling its land area. ScienceSim is a testing and development grid run by Intel. The non-profit OSgrid gained 507 regions, with a new high of 10,348 total regions, making it the largest OpenSim grid. Metropolis gained 202 regions. Kitely gained 109 regions, and AviWorlds gained 93 regions. All other grids gained 50 regions or less.

The total area of all 214 grids that reported their numbers this month was 28,136 regions, surpassing the total land area of Second Life by more than 1,000 regions.

This is the second month in a row that the total OpenSim land area has surpassed that of Second Life, and the gap continues to widen.

OpenSim continues to pull away from Second Life in land area. (Hypergrid Business data.)

OpenSim continues to pull away from Second Life in land area. (Hypergrid Business data.)

The data does not include the hundreds, or more, of private grids running the OpenSim software and used by schools, companies, non profits, individuals, and private social and roleplaying communities.

However, usage fell by over 1,500 actives this month on the top 40 grids, to 17,919 unique logins, possibly as a result of school breaks and vacations.

It should also be noted that, despite exceeding Second Life in land area, the public OpenSim grids currently trail far behind Second Life in active users.

Popularity rankings

For company and school grids, relative popularity is not an issue — the grids are set up for a specific purpose, and if they meet that purpose, then they are successful. The same is true for grids run by niche communities or that serve a special purpose not found elsewhere.

But when it comes to general-purpose social grids, the rule of thumb is: the bigger and busier, the better. People looking to make new friends look for grids that already have the most users. Merchants looking to sell content will go to the grids with the most potential customers. Event organizers looking for the biggest audience… you get the idea.

With that in mind, here are the 10 most popular grids this month:

  1. InWorldz: 6,933 active users
  2. OSGrid: 3,126 active users
  3. Avination: 2,241 active users
  4. Island Oasis: 1,185 active users
  5. Metropolis: 1,013 active users
  6. Craft World: 523 active users
  7. Kitely: 493 active users
  8. 3rd Rock Grid: 384 active users
  9. German Grid: 342 active users
  10. AviWorlds: 305 active users

With the exception of AviWorlds, which was rebuilding after a server and hosting company migration, and Island Oasis, all of these grid lost active users this month.

Avination lost the most users, reporting a drop of 863 actives, or 28 percent of its user base. InWorldz lost 296 active users, or just 4 percent of its active user base. OSgrid lost 290 active users, or 8 percent of its user base. Kitely, which is particularly popular with educators and non-profits, lost 135 active users.

Grid News Roundup

InWorldz, OpenSim’s most popular grid, has made it possible for users on all grids except Second Life to have well-fitting mesh clothing, by hiring former Second Life developer Karl Stiefvater  to finish work on his mesh deformer project and then donating the code so that it can be used in any third party viewer. And, back in April, the grid released a tool that allows its residents to see their mesh objects on a website, via a WebGL-based viewer called Dreamshare.

On Kitely, usage declined with people going on vacations and spending less time in virtual worlds, Kitely founder and CEO Ilan Tochner told Hypergrid Business. “However, with needing to handle less support requests we’ve been able to spend more of our time focusing on developing the upcoming Kitely Market,” he added. For example, merchants can now view their stores as their customers will see them.

Ilan Tochner

Ilan Tochner

“The Kitely Market is designed to help join all hypergrid-connected grids into one viable ecosystem, finally creating a critical mass of content, merchants and buyers to help the metaverse evolve from a collection of small grids to a unified market that can attract serious investments,” said Tochner. “This should help rejuvenate interest in OpenSim from organizations who are rediscovering immersive environments due to devices such as the Oculus Rift.”

Tocher added that the grid has slightly changed the way PayPal payments will work. “Instead of having buyers pay directly to a merchant’s PayPal account, and thus exposing the parties to each other’s personally identifiable information, Kitely will act as a middleman and enable people to make purchases in real-money using their avatar identities.” In addition to ensuring privacy, this will also reduce the fees that merchants will have to pay, eliminate chargebacks for merchants, and in general reduce their administrative load.

“We’ve also decided to add various anti-fraud mechanisms to the Kitely Market,” he added. “One note worthy feature we’ll be including is the ability to automatically reclaim all copies of a bought item existing in Kitely if the payment for that item is refunded by PayPal, the credit card company, the merchant, or Kitely.”

These changes will increase operational risk for Kitely itself, however, and the grid will change slightly higher commissions for real money transactions. Commissions for payments made in Kitely Credits will stay the same.

“People comparing Kitely Market to the Second Life Marketplace are advised to take all the fees paid by buyers and sellers into account when calculating how much of each dollar a buyer spends in the marketplace will actually end up in the merchant’s PayPal account,” Tochner added, referring to the Linden Lab policies. “You’ll want to pay close attention to the 10 to 15 percent  higher price Linden Lab charges people who pay directly via US dollars, their 5 percent sales commission, and their 2 percent cash-out fee.”

More information about the Kitely market can be found in the most recent Kitely Mentor’s Group meeting notes. The market will go live by the end of the summer, he said, but the exact date has not been set yet. Meanwhile, there is still time  for interested merchants to list their items for free and be eligible to become a featured merchant.

Editing product information in Kitely Market's merchant page.

Editing product information in Kitely Market’s merchant page.

Metropolis Grid now hosts Metropolis Academy, offering free courses for content creators. The grid has also rolled out a Web-based chat feature based on the AjaxLife client. Metropolis is also in the process of switching its central grid services to Siminan, to allow for greater scalability, speed, security, and stability. “Similar to the Moses project, we need to prepare for larger grid events with a high number of simultaneously registered avatars on a single region,” grid administrator Lena Vanilli told Hypergrid Business.

Virtual Highway, with the help of developer Andrew Hellershanks, has created code that allows users to attach landmarks, notecards and objects to group notices. The feature is available on the Virtual Highway grid, and has also been donated to the OpenSim community.

Gene Call

Gene Call

“Virtual Highway is also enjoying the improvements seen with the full activation of BulletSim physics,” grid founder Gene Call told Hypergrid Business. “We thank Robert Adams for helping us with that project.” The grid has also reduced land prices from $75 to $60 for a full region, no setup fees, with a 5,000-prim homestead region available for $35 and a water region for $10 per month.

New attractions include the underwater adventure Enchanted Mermaid Isle and the recreation of historical “Wild West” town of Tombstone, Arizona.

Underwater Atlantis ruins. (Image courtesy Virtual Highway.)

Underwater Atlantis ruins. (Image courtesy Virtual Highway.)

Avination, the second largest commercial grids, plans to roll out a new scripting engine later this month, with improved compatibility
with Second Life, increased reliability and higher performance. “Many things that could not be simply copied and pasted from Second Life will now
run without modification,” grid owner Melanie Thielker told Hypergrid Business. The weekend of July 20 and 21, the grid will host on the Cologne Festival on the Virtual Cologne region,  a rock, metal and industrial event that is held concurrently with the Cologne “Apmhi” goth festival. In addition, the grid will celebrate its third birthday near the end of August.

AviWorlds, after moving servers and hosting providers and rebuilding, has regained much of its traffic and users, grid owners Alexandro Pomposelli told Hypergrid Business. The currency has been restored. Merchants can now sell items for in-world AV$, and, in the International Market region, for real money via PayPal.

The grid has also hosted its first wedding ceremony.

AviWorlds hosts its first wedding ceremony. (Image courtesy AviWorlds.)

AviWorlds hosts its first wedding ceremony. (Image courtesy AviWorlds.)

Littlefield Grid is now organizing a dance party in conjunction with the upcoming OpenSimulator Community Conference in September. The grid is also a community sponsor of the event.

“We just started to offer starter homes for our community free of charge,” grid founder Walter Balazic told Hypergrid Business, adding that the offer is on a first come, first serve basis. The starter homes are 100-prim skyboxes and are intended just to get people started in the virtual world. The grid has also opened a region which is entirely dedicated to gardening and landscaping, with all the content created by the community.

“We also implemented a partnering system which allows our users to partner, we have added a few “special” things to go along with it including a “partner certificate” we generate for the partners in world and pass to each of them to make it a little more lifelike and interesting,” he said. ”

The US military’s MOSES grid is continuing to run tests of the Distributed Scene Graph, an Intel-sponsored technology that allows a single OpenSim region to hold hundreds of avatars. The next test is scheduled for Saturday, July 20, and the public is welcome to attend. Advance registration is required.

(Image courtesy Dr. Kitty Liu, Intel Research and Douglas Maxwell, USARL.)

(Image courtesy Dr. Kitty Liu, Intel Research and Douglas Maxwell, USARL.)

“This is a role play event set in a fictional country of Atropia and the players can choose to be either American soldiers or citizens of the town of Brentville,” said Douglas Maxwell, the science and technology manager for virtual world strategic applications at the U.S. Army’s Simulation & Training Technology Center. “The event takes place approximately ten years  from now after a war in the Caucuses region near the Caspian Sea.”

To make it easier to run simulations with a large number of participants, the grid has created a new role management system that allows scenario creators to enter new avatar roles into a web form and assign attributes to them. The roles can be customized and assigned avatar templates, and the avatars are created automatically.

” This is much more efficient than creating hundreds of avatars by hand and dressing them,” Maxwell told Hypergrid Business. The tool will be made available to the public under an open source license once it’s finalized.

“We believe this software would be useful to educators and trainers who would want to create a large number of avatars quickly for their students,” said Maxwell.

The team is also working on a new grid management system which allows administrators to see system and network loads, stop or restart individual regions, access individual simulator consoles, upload and download region archive OAR files. Once finished, this system will also be open sourced and released to the public.

(Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell USARL.)

June’s scalability test. (Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell USARL.)

Spellscape grid is having a half-off sale on regions. A 20,000-prim region is now 12.50 pounds (US $19) a month, with the price locked in for six months. Spellscape is a witchcraft and vampire-themed role playing grid.

(Image courtesy Spellscape.)

(Image courtesy Spellscape.)

The role playing grid Virtual Reality has added support for the Lumiya viewer and can now be accessed via iPhones, iPads, and Android devices. Lumiya — no relation to the Nokia Lumia cell phone — is a lightweight Second Life client for mobile devices.

Lumia viewer

OSgrid, the largest OpenSim grid, resumed its town hall meetings this Sunday, and posted the chatlog of the event. Progress is continuing on the grid’s non-profit status, which will allow it to get government grants and see lower PayPal transaction fees. However, the most controversial issue, the continuing lack of hypergrid connectivity to the Metropolis grid, was not addressed.

Haven, a small commercial grid, has increased the prim allowance on its free starter homes from 234 to 263 prims. The grid has also lowered land prices, with the cost of a 15,000 prim region cut from $57 to $48 a month.

Event listings added to Island Oasis login screen. (Image courtesy Island Oasis.)

Event listings added to Island Oasis login screen. (Image courtesy Island Oasis.)

Island Oasis, a popular commercial grid, has added new options for residents looking to promote events, including in-world search for event listings. Event listings will now also appear on the viewer login screen. Residents will also be able to buy ads on the login screen starting in August.


We’re listing the following grids as suspended this month:  Art, Desert of Aaravin, NexxtLife, Shangri-La Grid, Siberspace, StarGates Matrix, and Talon Grid.

Meanwhile, we’ve added several new grids to our database, including Aspire EternalsAweSim WorldsVirtual BuildersHunterOneTraveler1Majickal NetworkSurvivorPegasusMintaKaDa ‘HoodVirtanenWorld of BassUnitedVirtual Clubbing LifeCampus Virtuelle-Bildung.deOurworldonlineDarkRealmNilsenWorld-DCZandramasFleaGridLifeStyle 3D, and Spellscape.

If there’s a public grid we’re not tracking, please email us at [email protected]. There’s no centralized way to find OpenSim grids, so if you don’t tell us about it, and Google doesn’t alert us, we won’t know about it.

And if you plan to start a new grid, please note that we have 45 grids with the word “virtual” in the title in our database.

The official OpenSim website – – began tracking download numbers for the software in January. The software was downloaded 2,286 times this past month, for a grand total of 11,242 downloads.

The Diva Distro, a more user-friendly version of OpenSim, has been downloaded 782 times over the past month. The total number of Diva Distro downloads now stands at 23,185. This does not mean that there are twenty thousand mini-grids out there, however — someone might download the software but never use it, or download it once and use it to set up many grids.

And it doesn’t include the Diva Distros used as part of the New World Studio distribution of OpenSim, which has a new release out, including a new premium edition with additional management features. There are now more than 795 worlds using the software.

Diva Distro is also part of Sim-on-a-Stick, a version of OpenSim packaged to run on a USB stick, which was downloaded 356 times since last month, for a new total of 21,259 downloads.

Meanwhile, according to data from The Hypergates, the number of hypergate jumps on their network this month decreased by 1,236, to 3,216. The system now has 656 registered hypergates, down by 12 from last month, on 67 different grids.

This data is very limited, however. For example, not all hypergates are part of The Hypergates network — anyone can create their own hypergate by dropping a script on any object, such as our touch or walk-through single-destination hypergate script. In addition, many people do hypergrid jumps without using any gate at all, simply by typing a hypergrid address into Map-Search, or by using a hypergrid landmark created during a previous jump. There is currently no way of tracking that traffic.

Meanwhile, Second Life continued to lose land according to data from GridSurvey, with 143 fewer regions today than the same time last month. The Second Life grid now has 27,088 regions, down 2,455 regions from this time last year, and 4,797 fewer regions than its peak in June of 2010. According to GridSurvey, the last time the grid was this small was in June of 2009.

July Region Counts on the Top 40 Grids

The list below is a small subset of existing OpenSim grids. We are now tracking a total of 685  different publicly-accessible grids, 319 of which were active this month, and 214 of which published their statistics. There were a total of 28,136 regions, 320,324  registered users, and 19,936 active users on those 214 grids.

Many school, company or personal grids do not publish their numbers.

The raw data for this month’s report is hereA list of all active grids is here.

Related Posts'

Maria Korolov

Maria Korolov is editor and publisher of Hypergrid Business. She has been a journalist for more than twenty years and has worked for the Chicago Tribune, Reuters, and Computerworld and has reported from over a dozen countries, including Russia and China. Follow me on Twitter @MariaKorolov.

36 Responses

  1.' Sarge Misfit says:

    I am curious as to how many, and possible which ones, run AuroraSim.

    Don’t worry if you don’t have that info, Maria, I’m just curious.

  2.' Minethere says:

    Arielle got me crunching some of these numbers in a different way last month. Just an fyi kinda thing.,,

    % of active 30 day users to total registered users

    Metropolis 24%
    OSGrid 3.4%
    Inworldz 8.7
    3rd Rock 4.4
    Island Oasis 23%
    Kitely 4%

    It is also worthwhile to point out, imo, that Kitely and Inworldz do not report 30 day active numbers for all to transparently see for themselves, this number is given to Maria monthly. Which I wish at least Kitely would do.

    As another aside, Qarl has this website I found:

    I do think it is wonderful to see the reporting of so many contributions to opensim though.

    The new Metropolis Grid web-based log-in client is very cool and the news broke just in time for Maria to add some notes on it.

    It is very lightweight and quite functional for a first iteration. Once can chat in local, IMs and groups, see inventory, change the language used, see a small map of your location, use a radar and some other functions.

    I have not used it much yet but I like it when I am doing other grids and want to have a presence inworld also. My fastly outdating computer likes it also.

    Clients such as Radegast do more in some regards and in all grids that I know of, but this is cool in that it is web-based and they say more to come for it.

    • Keep in mind that the newer the users, the more likely they are to log in. Older users are more likely to have gone on to other things, switched avatars, created their own grids, etc… etc…

      OSgrid and 3rd Rock are among the first grids that were built in OpenSim, Island Oasis is among the newest, and Metropolis has had a large influx of new users recently.

      •' John Sheppard says:

        I wouldn’t say that. I have a rezdate of 5/30/2005 in SL. Still there, still active. I just do stuff in other grids as well. And I’m 3 years from being able to join AARP.

  3. Interesting discussion of these numbers from the SL perspective over on New World Notes:

  4.' chris says:

    Im not sure where this info comes from but i have been roaming the so called busiest of opensim grids for a while, and was on avination for one known to be a top player in opensim at the moment, every night this past two weeks spending time on there for hours, hardly any users online at all, also when trying to search inworld for regions to visit for shopping, beaches or clubbing, the search system was a big fail, classifieds which is normally the better option for opensim grids was also a fail. 80% of the sims that came up in search were no longer there anymore. i was like wow :O …so all this info you get im sorry but is far from the truth at all. and before anyone comments, avination was just an example of all the grid ive signed up for under opensim over the past few years. seems opensim is failing bad 🙁 osgrid is the same with the search system..not good at all for people to find anything. Also yes osgrid has the highest in numbers, but thats all it is numbers! the grid runs like a sack of crap, which is understandable being a test grid and all.

    •' Minethere says:

      well, thank goodness you cleared that up!! now i can take all my toys and go find something else to do….i know there is something else to do, i just gotta find it…besides, all this is taking up to much space on my old harddrive…stupid viewers, soas, databases, files….ugh

      •' xchrisx says:

        haha yvw 🙂 i just left another today called island oasis which was sad because i loved that opensim grid :(( but here is why!! i bought a full sim only 5k prims 15 dollars a month, not knowing after i had already spent over 60 dollars on others creations inworld , then the owners told me i cant have a club on that sim unless i spend 65 dollars a month :O like hmm ok here comes linden labs again with the restrictions and cost..and yes i understand the grid owners need to make money..but no opensim grid will ever take the players from second life until they lift the restrictions and drop the price ..harsh but true, and even more so when we all have financial trouble in real these days..every business should know damn well the whole world is in a financial mess :O so why start a business if you cant compete? and more so todo with the quality of the sims and grid anyway, because when you teleport around on these opensim grids they sometimes fail and boot you, also the lag sometimes can be a biotch, so exactly what are people paying for at the avarage cost of 60 dollars?? waste?? me thinks yes very.

        •' Minethere says:

          You may not have tried Kitely yet?

        •' KeithSelmes says:

          I don’t know how it was when Chris bought into Island Oasis, but today their website is very clear about their pricing. If you only want a small store or residential use, you can buy the $15 sim, but if you want to run a club it costs $65. As usual, there are no free lunches and you get what you pay for. If you try to rent a server and install OS yourself, or run a club from a home computer, the same rules apply, a cheap server will only carry a light load, and to run a club with a number of avatars visiting at one time, you need a better server with more memory and a faster network connection.

          Those aren’t restrictions applied by Island Oasis, they are fundamental to the technology and it’s costs. If IO really can deliver a server suitable for a club at $65 a month, that seems pretty reasonable, and they have a cheap option if you want to rent extra landscape regions around your club.

          The only really cheap option is Kitely. Some people think it unsuitable for a club because the sim isn’t always on, but I think that is not insurmountable – with patience, quality, and good marketing.

          I just checked the SL prices. A full region suitable for club use costs $295 per month, and has a $1,000 start up fee. Should OpenSim grids drop their prices even lower ? really, dream on.

          I wonder if OS grids should offer super servers at a higher price ?

          •' Ilan Tochner says:

            Thank you Keith.

            Kitely sims are turned on automatically when people enter them. They are only offline when they are empty. The only differences between an always-on sim on some other grid and one that is on-demand in Kitely are:

            A) A Kitely on-demand sim can take a bit of time to start if someone teleports into it and it is still offline. For most sims this just adds about 30-45 seconds to the time it takes the first avatar entering an empty sim to arrive at their destination. A sim that is popular and always has avatars inside it won’t be taken offline and will in effect be an always-on sim. Thus Kitely is very well suited for popular clubs.

            B) Kitely allocates a lot more server resources per running sim than other grids. A single sim in Kitely, even one provided by our Free Plan, can get access to a full multi-core server with 8GB of memory and a gigabit Internet connection. You’ll need to rent a powerful dedicated server to get a similar resource allocation with a grid that keeps regions always on. Grids that need to keep regions running on servers when they aren’t in use can’t afford to allocate the same amount of server resources to all the sims all the time without charging as much as they’re paying their own hosting provider for each dedicated server. In other words, you get much better price/performance because of Kitely’s on-demand model.

            C) Kitely replaced several of the key OpenSim services which determine a sim’s performance with it own proprietary systems. Our cloud-based assets and inventory systems help reduce lag and rez times. Our Advanced Megaregions are a significant improvement to regular OpenSim megaregions. This means you not only get more server resources for your sim you also get better performance than what unaugmented OpenSim can provide on the same hardware.

          •' KeithSelmes says:

            That’s my thought – only the first person in has to wait, and the servers scale up to what you need. But it might take a while to get established, with inputs of talent and promotional ability along the way. It ties in very well with the Lean Start Up idea from another article here. Start with a little place in your free world, and eventually build a 16 region high power always on clubland. Why not ?

          •' Phoneix Dreamscape says:

            The wait really isn’t bad at all, I don’t even notice it anymore. To me, its no worse than trying to TP into a crowded sim in SL. I have an older computer, YMVY.

            All I can say is try Kitely and see. You have nothing to loose and a FREE region to gain.

          •' Minethere says:

            I liken the wait for a Kitely region to come up [tho this time depends on how heavily primed it is] to when I use the hypergates….both are not a big deal, really-))

            hey Phoneix!!!!! NPCs!!!!! I want!!!!

          •' Minethere says:

            I can testify, personally, that of all the grids I am on, and have been on, my free region in Kitely outperforms them all, hands down.

            It has never crashed once brought up and once I rez in there is no lag whatsoever, I mean, none, and that is with a computer that is getting a bit long in the teeth now…

            [anybody want to buy a bunch of my terrains so I can buy a new computer????????????]

          •' xchrisx says:

            you got pics of them Mine?

          •' xchrisx says:

            I agree with you on some Kieth but like i said ive been on a lot of the top opensim grids and when they charge 65 dollars plus for a sim and your the only avatar on that sim, and im not saying all sims but some lag you just for the poor landscape or ott with the amount of structures, 25 dollars a month on 3rd rock i have found so far to be very good, 40 avatars running good for a club. so you see my point about the cost?. You would never get 100 on a sim at a time like second life anyway and yes the price difference is one that shows that.

          •' Minethere says:

            ah, yes, 3rg is a nice grid…I try to get by there at least once a week to listen to entertainers sing….nice, laid back grid.

          •' KeithSelmes says:

            $25 for 40 avatar concurrency is very good – surely below cost unless it’s cloud based. I wonder if it’s on a shared server, where the others aren’t doing much.

            Kitely say their free worlds will take 100 avatars, but I can’t verify that. Moses are aiming for 300 this year, but are busy with system upgrades for now. Their best on their second test was 60 I think. But I expect they will achieve their target.

          •' Minethere says:

            the last opensim load test for the conference had 221 or 226 or something on the simulator…tho there were many bots, with, I assume basic stuff on them.

            another one is scheduled for the 27th

            I think this link will get you to it folx…


          •' xchrisx says:

            Yes i wasn’t having a go about any particular grid but just after visiting the same sims over and over on island oasis called intoxicated 1 and 2 which seem to have the most content out of the whole grid, well best of anyway 😛 And my reasons for the re-visits were because of the falling through the floor and extensive lag while travelling around the two sims. And seems because they are both at the higher end of the commercial, they would most definitely be paying the top 65 dollars a month, and not forgetting i scanned around and was the only avatar on the two sims also. So how does that price justify that quality and experience? Im not sure exactly what 3rd rock are running on but was a nice surprising experience so far 🙂

          •' Minethere says:

            I left you a reply in 3rg xchrisx-)) I am available for a while too.

            fyi, the Intoxicated region malls are DJTommy Seetan’s…fun fact, myself and a few others tried a Mall in island oasis, we had it full and it was going well, but it kept crashing and we finally threw in the towel when we got there one morning and it had been down all night. We just could not do that anymore to our Merchants and customers.

            also, they are the only grid I know of in the Metaverse to ban Linda Kellie….which is when I decided to leave for good.

            I also got Tommy of Damselfly to come to that grid….wish I hadn’t….oh well, live and learn…lol

      •' Joe Builder says:

        Wow I don’t believe it that’s the first thing you said that I agree with 🙂 LOL Kidding Miney :)~

  5.' Joe Builder says:

    Funny thing about these so-called surveys, If SL had 1000 regions its still #1, and in no way shape or form to be compared to Opensims. I wonder who is the brain surgeon who try’s to compare the both. Opensims as we all try to ignore the fact is prehistoric in so many aspects to a Multi functional Grid such as SL.
    Now lets see the spin the people can put on this
    with horse blinders have to say.