Kitely Market vs Second Life Marketplace

The Kitely Market is significantly different from Second Life’s Marketplace. Not only because it will soon allow delivery of items to foreign grids – that’s just the biggest and most obvious difference.

But there are a number of other areas where, according to Kitely CEO Ilan Tochner, the new platform significantly improves over Linden Lab’s version.

HTML 5 Web design

The Kitely Market website is built on HTML 5, which allows a greater amount of interactivity and animation on the page.

“Second Life’s Marketplace requires page loading on every action,” Kitely CEO Ilan Tochner told Hypergrid Business.

The downside, however, is that the site doesn’t work as well on Internet Explorer, which lags behind the Chrome and Firefox browsers.

This outfit is sold with the 'export' permission. This means that I save save it from Kitely and wear it to the upcoming OpenSim Community Conference.

This outfit is sold with the ‘export’ permission. This means that I save save it from Kitely and wear it to the upcoming OpenSim Community Conference.

Product attributes and variations

If you go to most online shopping sites, once you decide to buy a particular piece of clothing, say, you may see different size and color options. On the Second Life marketplace, each single variation is listed as a separate item.

This makes it difficult to find products because you’re browsing through many multiples of the same item. A single dress available in 20 different colors can dominate a results screen.

The Kitely Market works much like Amazon and other shopping sites — once you select an item, you can then choose its color, if it’s available in multiple colors.

“It enables much better content discovery and content browsing,” Tochner said.

The company also worked with merchants to create a product directory that made sense, so that it would be as easy as possible for customers to find what they were looking for.

The Kitely Market also allows users to search for items based on their attributes, including colors. Other attributes include whether it’s meant for male, female, or furry avatars, and which permissions it has. Permissions are set automatically by the system, not manually by merchants, who might make mistakes.

Speaking of search, the Second Life Marketplace searches just the keywords, said Tocher. Kitely Market also searches in the title and description.

“We already have plans to improve this even further,” Tochner added.

Built-in demo items

The Second Life Marketplace is flooded with freebie demos — trial versions of products. In Kitely, the demo functionality is built right in.

“When you want to try out an item, you do so from the product listing itself, not from some other product listing,” said Tochner.

There are other features, many of them too technical to go into here.

“We’ve talked to many merchants and to people who built successful marketplaces for Second Life to learn what needed to be improved,” he said.

I love Linda Kellie's hairstyles. But I want to have something different from what everybody else is wearing -- and which doesn't look like I made it myself with the help of a drunk monkey.

I love Linda Kellie’s hairstyles. But I want to have something different from what everybody else is wearing — and which doesn’t look like I made it myself with the help of a drunk monkey. But I can’t just go into any in-grid store and pick something up, because provenance is very important. The last thing I want is to be accidentally wearing infringing content at a high-profile event!

Why should readers care?

Kitely isn’t the only commercial grid with a web-based marketplace, and it isn’t the first marketplace that promises to deliver goods to multiple grids — functionality which is expected to arrive later on this year.

What makes Kitely different from some OpenSim vendors is their focus and follow-through and attention to the customer experience. The other attempts at multi-grid marketplaces –HGExchangeCariama, and SpotON3D’s Synergy — have all failed to gain any traction in the wider OpenSim community, mostly due to a lack of effective marketing on the part of their backers.

But the enterprise users of OpenSim are particularly in need of just such a marketplace. Companies, schools, and non-profits are not well-suited to closed commercial grids, where most content is currently sold. These organizations need more control and ability to make backups, features which are rarely available on closed commercial grids.

As a result, companies and educators looking for legitimate content have so far been limited to Linda Kellie products and OpenSim Creations. Both of these sites offer free content with user-friendly Creative Commons licenses, but the selection is limited.

The biggest commercial site that delivers to multiple grids is Sunny Whitfield’s Total Avatar Shop, but this is a single shop, with a relatively small number of items, not a full marketplace.

The lack of content hurts potential adopters of OpenSim, which, in turn, keeps merchants from taking this market seriously.

Kitely hopes to change that.

“I really believe Kitely Market can have a bigger effect on the evolution of the hypergrid-connected metaverse than everything we’ve done so far,” said Tochner. “It’s about removing barriers to adoption, making it easy for merchants to sell to the hypergrid and for consumers to find legally licensed content to buy on the hypergrid. The current thousands of separate OpenSim grids — both public and private standalones — are not a big enough market to create traction. This changes, however, once we have an Amazon-like service that enables anyone to become a merchant with an online storefront without having to deal with the backend logistics.”

According to Tocher, the Kitely Market offers Second Life merchants an opportunity to expand their customer base without having to create a new presence on each OpenSim grid.

” Once you get that ball rolling, more legally licensed virtual goods become available outside of Second Life, more people start checking out OpenSim and you get a critical mass of people who still love Second Life to become part of the hypergrid,” he said. “Combine that with technologies such as the Oculus Rift, which promises to attract new people to this content-rich hypergrid, and you have an infliction point in the adoption of the distributed virtual worlds ecosystem that science fiction authors have written about for decades.”

 

 

 

Last updated by at .

maria@hypergridbusiness.com'

Maria Korolov

Maria Korolov is editor and publisher of Hypergrid Business. She has been a journalist for more than twenty years and has worked for the Chicago Tribune, Reuters, and Computerworld and has reported from over a dozen countries, including Russia and China.

  • Tranquillity (InWorldz)

    I’m trying to see if I understand this:

    “According to Tocher, the Kitely Market offers Second Life merchants an opportunity to expand their customer base without having to create a new presence on each OpenSim grid.”

    A primary purpose of this marketplace is to make sure that it’s very easy for SL merchants to sell to HG grids. In turn they won’t have to have any actual presence with any of the grids they will want to sell to.

    In essence, Kitely will collect 10 – 20% of total sales, and the grids that the content goes to will get nothing out of it from the merchants? Grids that already have merchants may end up losing a chunk their primary revenue as they’d no longer need stores.

    Sounds great for Kitely, but how are you going to get grids to want to sign up? Is it that they wont have a choice but to accept objects from the marketplace because they’re HG enabled? What is the incentive for a busy grid that already has quality content? I’m not seeing any.

    • Gaga

      I think any market place site will only ever be as good as the content it has on offer, Tranq and if other grids find they have to compete then I would expect the quality to improve with some grids having cherished brands and merchants specializing in order to attract residents and travelers. I have always felt in-world trade suffers because of web based markets and I’m sure that has contributed to the decline in Second Life but they exist and more will open (Aviworlds is saying they will open one). I think commercial grids will have to look to other ways to monetize. Land hosting will remain the greatest source of income I’m sure but more and more small grids serving role play and other entertainment venues will increase and likely they will have in-world stores specializing in themed clothing, props and vehicles much like happens in Second Life.

      I am not sure yet exactly how the export perms are going to work out but my own plan is to not allow export of my specialized items like combat hud and weapons for example to leave my world. I want them to be available to role players who visit my world but I am quite happy for hypergrid visitors to bring their own clothes and inventory they bought elsewhere with them. I might say the same for adult rated sims who will probably want to specialize too. In deed, I see the future of the Metaverse as many small worlds with a particular theme or entertainment and a lot of RPG’s just as it happened in Second Life with many regions specializing. With hypergrid and an open market everything that worked for Second Life can work for the free Metaverse and a damn sight cheaper!

    • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

      Hi Tranquillity,

      We absolutely agree that grid owners should benefit from this commercial activity. We haven’t announced this yet, but we will establish an affiliate system that pays a percentage to grid owners whenever someone from their grid buys in Kitely Market. We hope that this will convince even people who currently run closed grids to configure their grid to accept item deliveries from Kitely Market, your grid included :-)

      You raised the issue that a web-based store may reduce the need for land-based stores, which will deprive grid owners of revenue. This is partially true, but it’s offset by the increased sales volume and user engagement. This is why many grids (Second Life, InWorldz, Kitely, etc.) have a web-based marketplace. And as mentioned above, we *will* make sure that it’s beneficial to all grid owners.

      We believe that a unified market will increase the amount of high-quality content available on *all* grids, to the benefit of buyers, sellers and grid owners.

      • God

        I have looked over both of your operations Kitely & Inworldz if you want to really move forward and grow the best thing to do is put vanity beside both of you & get your operations to working on agreements and even work on a business plan to merge both of your grids,

        All party’s here have business trust issues without getting beyond that this stage you are both at will stay the same this time next year & the year after,

        You both hold separate keys without thinking together the doors you need to walk thru will never open.

    • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

      As this is merely an evolving of the Metaverse, imo, it will behoove those closed commercial grids to either get with the innovations with the Kitely MP, and other facets of current opensim development, or find themselves continuing to be more and more marginalized, and, as with all software that does not work, either due to factors of obsolescence or in not keeping up with innovations, they go away. It happens all the time with software.

      What Kitely is doing is pushing innovation. Some folx will not care for this…this is an expected thing, imho.

      As Maria points out, she can buy items in the Kitely MP and if the content creator checked the opt-in to export, she can wear it to any grid she can hypergate to…once Kitely continues to reach their promised goals and business plan of opening HG.

      As someone who has watched this closely and as someone who was fairly involved with the inwz MP Inbiz at one time [hugss Anna!!! I love you and miss you!!], I expect that once Anna and more content creators see the possibilities, there will be a ton of new activities related to this.

      I can see Anna even seeing some possible way to integrate the potential in some way, maybe even merging in some regards. In fact, I think I will email her now and send her this article link.

      I do think that now this has finally opened, and the attenuating publicity of it all, that it is going to generate a lot of backroom discussions, people trying to maintain their own concept of the status-quo. However, the gate is now open, the path is set, and nothing will change it.

      I am personally looking forward to buying even more items, especially when the hypergates are open, so my Kitely avatar can meet my other HG avatars, and we will throw a party-)))

      [disclaimer, this is not a swipe at your grid David]

      fyi http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp shows that IE is becoming such an obsolete browser there is no need to code to it specifically anymore….kinda like some things related to some opensim grids.

      • Joe Builder

        Miney keep in mind this is how exactly SL started. But also keep in mind the is a FREE metaverse so not only does grids charge for small parcels of land, Now a Marketplace?. The vast majority don’t want to pay a nickel, for what they can get for free using HG technology. Myself and many others came over from SL to opensims to give our creations away freely. But if we are moving into a direction that everything, (Mostly) needs a price tag soon it will fail horribly. And as Gaga stated Market place is only good as its content. And to be extremely honest if the content looks to good to be true, bet it was copied from SL and selling that item is a no no.
        Keep in mind opensims is here for us to enjoy once a price tag is in place the fun part goes away. Or maybe just maybe these days are the beginning of the end. Lastly if I was in it for the small change being made I would of stayed in SL.

        • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

          Joe…lol…I was not around when sl started, I was busy with reality then-)) so I always defer to those much more knowledgeable about such things.

          And since this is a blog about the Kitely MP, I was not speaking to other things that interest me.

          Personally, as you do, I have multiple interests…I speak to others of them in other places, as the mood and interest sparks my attention-)))

          The Kitely MP is actually mostly populated with stuff brought in by SL Merchants. Some from free opensim have also added some content.

          Regardless, it is a paradigm changer, in several regards…as I am absolutely certain you and I can both agree on that point……………..

          • Joe Builder

            And no offence Miney brush up a bit on those terrains you sell before putting them in a Marketplace. Lord Knows how many of them I had to fix, And no its all hush hush people don’t want to hurt your feelings. Those would be *coughs so-called friends, oops better put my claws away huh :)

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            lolol!!! hope ya had fun then-)))))

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            I have been a bit busy and having some personal problems, but I wanted to better respond to this.

            Firstly, I have no issues with you at all Joe, feel free to do and say whatever you wish to-)) I am for freedom of speech, more so that many who say they are, but in fact their actions show otherwise.

            Secondly, If I was all about selling my terrains then I would still be trying to do so in some grids that I have left completely…I would be posting in dozens more places than the very few I do post in…and I would not be giving away most of them.

            I am already more busy than I want to be doing something that is a hobby for me, my entertainment time, something to do so I will not have to think to much on my personal life. Something I do mostly in my soas to relax.

            So any comments you make such as this, in public, or in private, are really pointless, as you cannot understand what I am doing, at all….and they do not matter, at all.

            As to the claws comment, you are not a woman, and thus you cannot ever comprehend what that means, nor how to do it properly.

            However, I applaud you saying whatever you wish to, and believing whatever you wish to-)) be well Joe…

          • Joe Builder

            Last comment I made directly to you was in response to your once again placing your foot in your mouth. I have seen your comment you left on the other site about me, in regards to what I said here. So please don’t start acting all innocent, when you cast the first stone as always.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            I g+’ed your name there so you WOULD see I was commenting about you. My hope had been you were intelligent enough to understand that.

            And I did not say anything negative about you there, or anyplace else…as I have no issue with you, or anybody else for that matter…except one person in these virtual worlds.

            It is more likely you simply did not understand my comment there.

            There have been a few shills and sycophants and trolls I have insulted only because I was actually talking to that person, since she use shills, I can to….simple stuff really.

            Those people had no clue either what I was actually doing…the person in question is at least bright enough not to comment herself in these places as she and I know the truth of things where nobody else actually does, they just think they do.

            You should have simply responded there rather than make some silly comment in this Kitely thread and I could have better explained whatever issue you had with my comment there, to you, and not add to all the derailments going on in this blog that are already happening.

            That is the decent thing to have done and I only responded here to try and help you to understand this…further responding is not useful [as this is].

            And I will not comment further to you here, to many are derailing this worthwhile blog already…you can find me in g+..thx hun.

          • Joe Builder

            Ok, Again this is not the place to explain what you do in other blogs, I myself do not belong to the extreme Bias blogs as you do. I was told Miney was at it again and was directed there. Miney try to focus on the problems and less on making them. As far as this topic goes seems the people have spoken more or less. Marketplace is a grand idea I agree, keep it only in Kitely is what many want, (Creators Anyways) till there is a well paced fix to permission fixes and copybot issues, Being so many countries don’t abide by the law. Many still say *I buy in SL so, Is mine*

          • Inworldz Resident

            It is a losing argument joe

            This miney person has motives not seen so well.

            She has attacked inworldz over and over on every forum she can using shill’s and friends to try to force inworldz to not be able to have a voice any place.

            What makes it upsetting is it is done to benefit kitely .

            Who can trust kitely when they use someone to attack anyone who speak’s out against them just look on most forum’s including SLUniverse and SL Forum’s at the slanderous fake posting’s she has made now who can trust this kitely or can other grid’s trust them with the fake 2 hour’s a month region’s
            and a marketplace they intend to try and force on all other grid owner’s.
            I was asked not to post here as ishe will use it as more firewood against inworldz but we are people to who are proud of what we have but we cannot say anything because of kitelys mute police
            Sorry joe she will now work on shutting you down.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            lol

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            You are aware that when you say Inworldz requested that you not post here and you did it anyway that you demonstrate the concept that makes your argument a bit unconvincing? :-)

            The fact someone uses a grid doesn’t mean the grid controls what that person does. We don’t control Minethere (she is quite capable of expressing her personal views without our assistance) just as Inworldz doesn’t control what you say and do :-)

            BTW, the regions are quite real, you are invited to create a free account and try one out yourself (and rez 100,00 prims to test our claim). Then wait as long as you want (hours / days / weeks / months / years) and see it the region isn’t there the next time you try to enter it… Can you say the same for any other grid that provides a free region with that many prims?

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            and least we lose sight in the frenzie here-)) http://www.kitely.com/ shows one can get up to 16 regions, even in mega mode [no region border crossing issues] for 100 USD…only 25 more than for one very limited rental of a region in inwz….

            a no brainer to my thinking-))

            [this is not a response to you Ilan but to the inwz posters and lurkers that are obviously around--tho I knew they would be]

            Hopefully Jim will continue to pass on further commenting as he at least once did in another blog about how mega regions, which Kitely and many in opensim use very well, as a “kludge”.

          • KeithSelmes

            In essence, megaregions are a kludge, and I’ve certainly called them that before myself.
            As I understand it, OpenSim can easily be configured for variable size regions, but the viewers can’t handle that, so megaregions were attempted as an experimental work around.

            When I first tried them they were more trouble than they were worth, and other people were finding that too. Definitely belonged in the technical category “kludge”.
            They improved then to the point of being quite usable, but still having some awkward characterisitics and limitations and still being kludgeworthy.

            Now Kitely have their advanced megaregions and their own asset service, things seem to work better there. Also I believe they’ve improved megaregions and OAR options in standard OpenSim. A lot has happened in the last 12 months, and I haven’t got around to testing the recent versions properly. I still wouldn’t disagree with anyone who called megaregions a kludge, but I would say they’re working pretty well now, and anyone basing their opinion on earlier experience should try them again. I expect there’s a lot of mainstream software with features that started as hurried kludge and are now integrated to the extent that most wouldn’t notice.

          • Joe Builder

            Not sure your to familiar with MegaRegions but that’s all I use from going on close to 3 yrs now. I have recently started running regions on my home PC which does very well. One small example is a 225 mega region with 25 avatars AO’s/Dancing with very little stress on my Home computer. Presently I have a 35 Region Mega approx: 12.000 prims running smooth as silk in Osgrid. I agree if you don’t know to use then I do not advise you to. But they work just fine, Perfect for my heavy scripted vehicles that I have..

          • Gaga

            Oh, but I thought you said Opensim was rubbish, Joe,,, and prehistoric compared with Second Life. Clearly, you can only think on one cylinder at a time. lol

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            a comment where absolutely nothing is based on reality…give this person a Grammy!!

            but, seriously, I love it when you folx comment as it shows intelligent folx another reason to NOT join that grid-)) [or leave it quickly]

            I don’t have to do anything but point people to such comments and the rest, as they say, is history-)) [this is actually my favorite thing to do]

            otoh, be proud…stay in that grid!!

          • Drakeo55

            no grammy miney as cannot award it to a dunghole
            inworldz thugs always lurking as this one is just another elenia borg drone disconnected from the hive

          • Drakeo55

            this one is starved for attention, what is the matter little fellow
            is momma bird elenia not spoon feeding you enough

          • Zack Wetherby

            Inworldz Resident said: “….fake 2 hour’s a month region’s….”

            FAKE? Clearly you don’t get out much. I can assure you that the FREE regions Kitely offers to everyone are quite real. I have one. I can tell you they are far superior to InWorldz regions in every way. Kitely regions have more prims, more features, are more stable and for two hours a month, they are completely FREE!

            Inworldz Resident said: “Who can trust kitely when they use someone to attack anyone who speak’s out against them…”

            By your reasoning, who then can trust InWorldz when you, a professed InWorldz resident, attacks another grid over yet another feature InWorldz lacks.

            Inworldz Resident said: “I was asked not to post here..”

            You should have listened more carefully to the advice you were given. You are not doing your grid any good by trying to attack another poster who doesn’t share your grid preference and mindlessly dissing a Kitely feature you are completely clueless about.

          • Aaron

            Looks like you have poor social skills and that’s ok
            so I’ll help you out to see things better…
            Better educate yourself before looking foolish for speaking with baseless claims and the way to start is reading this whole forum first and getting a better understanding by joining this forum community.

            Inworldz has brainwashed they are con artist in a fast dying grid that is just a relic business model plus years behind OS Software compared to everyone else.
            We have Miney / Ilan point out the inworldz brainwashing program all the time.

            Come to Kitely get a free region join a real community
            Kitely is the biggest thing since Secondlife
            I encourage you to not waste more money in Inworldz
            or the rest of the dying osgrid sims.

            Best of luck *smiles

            Aaron

            http://www.kitely.com/

        • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

          Hi Joe,

          Kitely has a digital “paper trail” for every transaction that takes place in the Kitely Market and inside the Kitely grid. Merchants who want to get real money paid out to their PayPal account need to have a Verified PayPal account. The combination of these things means that people who try to profit from illegal content can’t easily hide behind fake identities if a content creator they stole from decides to take them to court.

          Content bought inworld in “the free metaverse” doesn’t have this sort of accountability system built in – which is one of the reasons why copybotters can easily get away with trying to profit from other people’s intellectual property.

          Kitely Market enables buyers to know that the content they bought is from the legitimate source and that if that isn’t the case that the real intellectual property owner will get everything it needs from Kitely to be able to track down the criminal who tried to use our system to make a quick buck. Our system also has various policies built in to remove the chance that criminals will be able to abuse it before content creators can react. Things such as a 45-day delay from the time a purchase is made until we clear real money for payout to PayPal.

          As for moving in the direction where “everything (mostly) need a price tag”. People can always run their own grids on some hosted service or at home using things such as sim-on-a-stick. The Kitely Market makes this cheaper to do as it will provide an alternative monetization option for grid owners so they’ll actually be able to reduce the prices they charge their own users (think of what ad revenue did for websites).

          In other words, if you want to see a free metaverse then you should consider endorsing something like Kitely Market that enables grid owners to provide land people can visit at cheaper prices than they need to charge now to cover their expenses.

        • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

          Joe — I’m not sure how someone else creating a marketplace stops you from giving things away. All the previous channels are still open to you — freebie stores on your own land on almost any grid — many grids will give you free space, even, if you’re providing content. You could put up a website like Linda Kellie did. You can put up your own grid and make it a freebie Mecca. Kitely’s market isn’t taking away any of those options, just adding a new one.

          • Joe Builder

            All i’m saying is putting a price tag in a World of opensource, free, no cost whatever else they call it today is the same path SL took in the beginning. Everyone thinks there is less people in opensims vs land mass now. Wait till this kind of thing takes off. Now Aviworlds wants to jump on the band wagon ohh my. I will stress this yet again most of the creators reside in SL only, So with that said what percentage of copied items will be sold in these up coming Martketplaces. Then battle the Many HG grids who give quality items away for free, Lastly consider in ALL grids put together on a good day is 1000 people, Hmm not good numbers to put so much energy into a Marketplace. But greed knows no boundaries.

          • Gaga

            Amazing how this guy, Joe talks about greed when he has said so much to support the SL business model and the rip-off tier charges they impose. He goes on about copybotting like he is the well-informed expert. The copybot argument against Opensim has been used time and again when there is very few examples ever of merchants claiming ownership ever seeking a take down. Since he talks like an expert I would like him to point to any examples of copybotted goods on sale anywhere in the free Metaverse. We know there are probably freebies available which have been copied from the early days of Opensim but please do point to the stolen stuff that is on sale for real money and support your claims.

            Fact is we know where you are coming from Joe. We know you are a Second Life stooge intent upon causing miss-trust and division in the free Metaverse and we can see exactly where your supporters hail from when they’re not your ‘alt’ guest voters. You hang about on this blog in the deluded belief your propaganda is being forced fed to a wide audience. You have already been thrown off those Google plus communities that have their eyes open and know what your game is.

            You’re a fake with vested interests trying to act the concerned citizen and using all the old lame, unsubstantiated claims made by many others with an axe to grid to back your arguments.

            I got news for you Joe Builder. Kitely will succeed because they are genuine, honest and up-front in all they do. They contribute lots of code back to Opensim core and their business model is sound and damn good value for money. You wont destroy the free Metaverse Joe and nor will your closed-grid supporters.

          • Joe Builder

            Gaga I knew your delusional disorder would chime in its very amusing. As far as a so called alliance you think I have with SL once again your sadly mistaken. SL is just a example that’s used like so many do here already. Google plus?? I have never been thrown out of any community LOL, I have left one that’s it. Alt’s you say?? wow prove it in any shape or form. Other than Avatars I used to use in SL. Your grasping for straws again Gaga. Your extremely clueless, with your guessing and offer nothing in value, here or on your nonsense blog. You do mention a *Free Metaverse* funny you have no clue what that is. Keep on supporting things with a price tag and your kind will be the end of the Free Metaverse.

          • Gaga

            My word, Joe Builder! You’re so full of venom when you arguments fall apart. Just like most losers who make claims they can’t back with proof you spit back nonsense to avoid backing your empty claims. You didn’t offer any examples to support your copybot claim. Ideally, we would want you to point to more than a few documented examples where a take down notice has been served and acted upon. If you offered more than a few we would have to take your claim seriously I’m sure. If you offered one example I would probably ask if that is the best you can do given how long the Opensim Metaverse has existed but you didn’t even offer one example which proves you pluck your rubbish out of the air and you don’t know what you are talking about.

            I think I will leave it at that because if one argues with a fool long enough there is a danger folks wont be able to tell the difference.

            So, the soap box is all yours Joe “Linden” Builder.

        • AviWorlds

          My two cents.. Which are worth really 40 bucks! LOL
          Open Sim is the platform of which these worlds or games use.
          It has nothing to do with the mind set. FREE ONLY…etc..
          You create a GAME and SELL that game no matter what platform you use; if you have a community and players it will SELL.
          Free is good and it is present in all marketing strategies. All manufactures and makers, creators of things do give out free stuff in order to bring people to eventually BUY a better or more complete item.

          The cost of the free item is usually included in the price of the PAID item.
          So even if people like the FREE stuff; If they see something they LIKE they will WANT it and the final result will be a PURCHASE.
          Its all a matter of MIND SET and MARKETING.
          For example. AviWorlds will be creating a huge MARKETPLACE but it will EXIST only INWORLD as a huge international SHOPPING center where users from all grids will be able to SELL and BUY using paypal module.

      • Tranquillity (InWorldz)

        I think there is a long way to go on this as you’ll find many SL merchants don’t even like the default “full perm = exportable” paradigm that viewers currently enable for all opensim grids.

        From a consumer centric standpoint obviously a multi-grid market is a good thing, but from the merchant standpoint, some of them actually enjoy being able to sell on and to multiple grids and make extra by reselling the same items on each individual grid. Why is this? Because they end up having to go to and support the items on each grid anyways (especially stuff with “moving parts” so to speak, scripts, etc). Selling it once and having it be able to go to a bunch of grids means a single sale, single point of income, but multiple points of support.

        Even grids running the exact same code won’t have exact same behaviors due to their different backend setups.

        As far as innovation, game changing etc, without actually actively working at increasing the number of participants in the current alternative/free metaverse, none of this is going to mean much.

        As far as the other points about closed/open/catchup etc, I think we’re well beyond that kind of talk now. I really don’t need to start comparing feature/functionality sets again, as it is not a winning argument for either side, and only serves to further divide the already small number of metaverse participants. (internet relative terms of course)

        • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

          Right, we are past whatever talk has gone by-the-by about what certain grids do…I only mentioned it in passing.

          As to what Merchants think, well, that depends on whom you talk to. I expect you talk to a lot of them, and I talk to quite a few myself, as does Ilan.

          It is my observation that those who “get it” are, and will be, joining the Kitely MP, those who wish to “figure it out” will ask questions in the appropriate ways, either in their forums or in private conversations [such as I personally do a small amount of now and for a while].

          And then there are those who will be convinced that this is not a good thing, and be given what sounds like logical reasons for this being so…hence, my backroom discussions remark.

          It will not matter whatever some people may try to say or do, in public or in private conversations. The fact is that this is a paradigm changer, and time will prove this out….

          [and I don't even need to be quoted to this fact]

          As to perms issues viewer side, as I am sure you do know, there are some viewer devs doing some changes or have changes planned…whether or not this is a good thing, this little battle between the closed commercial content problem V. the free opensims, will become more apparent to more people eventually.

          As to issues between grids running various versions of OS and/or having backend changes they have done…this is the nature of the software. Some “get this” and manage quite well.

          In any case, they can sell using the Kitely MP to multiple grids, as Ilan refers to….some will understand quite clearly how much this will benefit their own pocketbooks and whatever some single closed grid wishes to tell them will make no difference at all…other than the few there who have much self-interests in staying where they are.

          Though I do expect it will surprise some people who watch this new MP who is in it-))

          As to increasing the current amount of people actually involved in all this….I don’t have any answers to that, other than it may be showing this whole current concept of VR may be passing….time will also tell in this regard.

          But it is quite apparent most closed commercial grids are not increasing in size….so, we will see.

    • God

      I have looked over both of your operations Inworldz & Kitely if you want to really move forward and grow the best thing to do is put vanity beside both of you & get your operations to working on agreements and even work on a business plan to merge both of your grids,
      All party’s here have business trust issues without getting beyond that this stage you are both at will stay the same this time next year & the year after,
      You both hold separate keys without thinking together the doors you need to walk thru will never open.

    • Guest

      It sounds good to me, I can copybot anything I want and have it spread all over every grid without having any comeback. Bonus.

      • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

        Most of the copybotters today work in Second Life — not only is there more stuff to copybot, but there are also more people to distribute it to.

        It’s hard to police this — even if the creator sees you wearing the item, it can be hard to tell if you bought, stole it, or got it from a thief.

        In OpenSim, if a creator sees you wearing the item on a grid that the creator hasn’t approved distribution to, it can be a big embarrassment for both you and the grid, and there’s the potential of take down notices, and, if the notices are ignored, to a closure of the grid or infringement lawsuits.

        The advantage of having an easy marketplace for creators is that potential customers — that is, people with money who are interested in buying an item — have a convenient place to go to find anything they want, instead of having to hunt around different shops on different grids for it. (Though some people do enjoy the hunting!)

        Prices for virtual items are ridiculously low — a magazine on the newsstand that I read once and throw away is $4.95, and I get a lot more enjoyment out of, say, a virtual outfit.

        As iTunes has proven over and over again, there’s a very large set of customers willing to pay reasonable amounts for virtual goods to avoid having to deal with thieves, hackers, viruses, guilt, and legal liability.

        • Joe Builder

          Maria you really need to get more, I can show you 100′s of regions in many different grids that have used the *Region Copier* all one has to do I look at a entire region in minutes its copied. Yes SL has more, Reason is 1000′s more people if you do the math vs People per world Opensims is full of them. more so than SL One day me and you need to do some grid hoppin I use the old phoenix viewer it will show you the copyrights in Skin textures and many other tricks to catch the thiefs. Many copy botters I spoke with say, I buy in SL is mine to take. That’s there excuse. Welcome to Pirates world anything goes.

          • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

            I’m not disagreeing with you. I agree that copybotting is rampant. I’m saying that creators looking to make money need a carrot-and-stick approach: crack down on the illegal copies as they can (or as they have time and energy) and make it as easy and convenient as possible for actual, good customers to buy legimate content.

            Trying to find a perfect technological solution to deter theft is pointless, which is why both iTunes and Amazon have dropped the DRM on their music. Hackers will still hack — the only people hurt by DRM are legitimate users, and merchants who lose sales because DRM is so inconvenient for shoppers.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            as to this particular issue of itunes and such…this is why that, since youtube started allowing full movies to be posted, and there are sites where some post links to them, that they are often gone quickly by way of the particular movie company having them removed from youtube…

            they don’t, of course, catch all of them, nor do I expect they think they will either, but they catch some of the obvious ones via that channel of dissemination…

            which is why when i go to watch one of those movies they are often removed while i am watching them, usually at the best part where some cool thing is happening and i get very annoyed!!!

          • http://www.virtualclover.net/ Serenity Sinclaire

            There are better places to catch your favorite shows and movies without worrying about the censorship demon that is you tube. Ad Block Pro/Plus enabled on your browser will get rid of their obnoxious ads. Megashare dot info is a good one, primewire dot ag is another one – they’re all over the place…and while corporations flip out and try to stop it, the people have already decided that the time of paying for movies is over with. It isn’t that people don’t like actors and crews making money that’s behind it; it’s that people are fed up with corporate greed and forced advertising, lies, misinformation, strong arm tactics and the rest of the nonsense they attempt to impose…so the solution is piracy…

            …and the same thing is happening in all areas, music, books, movies, images, content, games, all sorts of things, up to and including virtual world content.

            The biggest problem for those who look to make a living is not the existence of copybots but failing to recognize the desires of the market. I’ve championed this protest myself because I support it – if I buy something from a merchant and I am spending real money, then whatever I bought belongs to me and I’ll do whatever I want with it short of telling people I created it. The second a merchant tells me I can’t give it away or make a copy of it or take it elsewhere, or modify it after they took my real money is the second they lose permanent business. Otherwise, I’ll be glad to fork over pretend money for their pretend content.

            That attitude merchant creators have that their content has some intrinsic value that affords a real currency exchange but that the new owners of that content are restricted from actually owning it at the end of the day is why copybotting will continue and nobody will stop it short of shutting down all virtual kingdoms.

            It’s a losing fight. I don’t mind paying for something with real money, but I expect real access without restriction. Otherwise, we need to start restricting what merchants can and cant’ do with that real money: they can’t exchange it, they can’t remove it from the grid or transfer it to anyone else.

            Oh, listen to the squawking now, eh? ;-p

          • Guest

            I think that OpenSim grids were created for people like you. And as long as they all stay there, I’m even grateful for OpenSim!

          • http://www.virtualclover.net/ Serenity Sinclaire

            Nobody cares, Joe

    • xchrisx

      I have to agree with you on some of that Tranquillity
      mainly because of the presence part of creators ect, we all know and would prefer they rent regions rather than use free shops :)
      for the obvious reasons they will create more hopefully :) also its another region sale for a grid other than crappy sl :P
      More important how you going to justify all this opensim grids missing out on the sales in the marketplace?? to me that sounds like item prices are going to be expensive for us the buyers so all these people like kitely, and the grid owners get a cut :O
      To me that all sounds like second life all over again, money grabbing, pocket filling greedy grids :(

  • hack13

    My response to this is a bit to long, so I wrote a blog in reply http://timothyvyper.blogspot.com/2013/09/my-response-to-kitely-marketplace.html

    • Joe Builder

      Bravo, Thats more or less what I was trying to say, Lacking my grammar skills

      • http://www.virtualclover.net/ Serenity Sinclaire

        Maybe you should spend more time boning up on 3rd grade grammar skillz than fear mongering about copybots. It’s pretty clear from everything you post that virtual worlds terrify you worse than actual real life issues, so maybe you should turn off the Borg Machine and go outside and chase butterflies.

        Unless, of course, you ruin it by being utterly paranoid somebody will steal your Cheerios

        • Joe Builder

          You speak like a copy botter yourself, maybe a alt of one the below troublemakers. Try to focus on the thumbs up (Up Votes) on my comments being you know squat. and see how the majority votes

  • Zack Wetherby

    Congratulations Ilan and Oren, you did it again! You said the Kitely Market would be open in September and BOOM so it is. It had to be a lot of work, but you delivered on your promise and on time to boot. A tree is known by it’s fruit. You have again proven yourselves to be innovative, trustworthy and true by the things you say and do.

    Don’t let the envious ramblings of some rain on your parade, you can sense their desperation in their posts. They see you rolling out another shiny new innovation while they struggle to catch up to where OpenSim was when they forked from it.

    To the victor goes the spoils. You were the first to see past you own grid and saw the potential. With perseverance and hard work you brought your vision to life for all of us. I wish you well in your endoveor. I hope the Kitely Market is a huge success and that you and Kitely prosper because of it.

    • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

      Thank you Zack :-)

      • Renée Miller

        ditto – Ilan and Oren are among the brightest techies and business people i have ever run across. i’m still amazed at how automated their website is, SL isn’t even close and it had zillions to start up and has close to $100 million a year in its prime

  • Robert Graf

    Opensim worlds/grids have room for both paid and free land and content. If you want to offer free land or content – offer it. If you want to charge for land or content – charge for it. Why does it have to be one or the other?

    I’ve had regions on OSGrid since Spring 2009 and ran visitor counters on them since. Over the last few months noticing an uptick in visits to all my regions. Especially large uptick in residents that are new to OSGrid and hypergrid visitors.

    So for those still using the same old tired, worn out line that opensim is going nowhere…. There are no people…. No Action… Etc Etc…. Maybe they have no visitors or interest in their regions/builds simply because they are not good at creating desirable content or regions with interesting/fun/useful builds…. Or maybe they have a negative attitude… lol!!

    All I know is I have had more fun the last few years in opensim/OSGrid than I ever had in SL. Creating builds and developing regions that I would never have had the chance to do in SL because of the setup fees/tier. I’m free to create as I want on my own timetable. I don’t have to worry about making tier or worry about prim counts, etc. etc. That is why I’m in opensim and enjoying every moment. lol!!! ; )_~~~~

  • Guest

    Well my view is who made Kitely the official opensim marketplace as we now have to turn off our HG as we will not allow other grid owners to force its control over us as a private grid we decide what content enters our grid period .. Not in our backyard!

    • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

      It’s very difficult to prevent outside content from coming into a grid. Schools and other organizations that typically need to control this usually require their users to use custom viewers, that don’t allow uploads.

      Otherwise, people can use Imprudence and other viewers to upload XML content such as what is available from Linda Kellie and OpenSim Creations.

      Hypergrid teleports also allow the import of foreign content, as users can travel to other grids, buy products at foreign stores, pick up freebies, then bring them home.

      Once Kitely turns on hypergrid connectivity it will immediately become the largest hypergrid-enabled shopping destination — until competitors emerge, of course.

      As a result, school grids often turn off hypergrid connectivity when classes are in session, especially when dealing with the younger grades, or watch students very carefully while they’re on line to ensure that they don’t, say, teleport over to the sex animation shops on other grids.

      If you are similarly concerned about on-grid content, then hypergrid connectivity is definitely a major concern.

      On the flip side, many small grids start out with little or not content available to their users. Say, a small role playing grid specializing in a particular game may spend extra money for game-related content, but might not want to invest in run-of-the-mill content like furniture, plants, hair, and so on. Right now, the only alternative is Linda Kellie’s freebies, which are very nice, with great license terms, but the selection is limited and many of the items are recognizably in her personal style. Which means that everyone can immediately see you’re wearing freebies. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that!)

      Markeplaces like Kitely’s can allow grid owners to focus on what they do best.

      Kitely does take a commission, but it seems reasonable compared to the cost of developing and managing your own marketplace. Plus, it’s hard to attract merchants to a brand new grid.

      • Guest

        Well I guess in your eyes its ok for them to force the services on other grids that seems like a playbook pass strait from the lindens
        I love how you point out that every grid is starving for content maybe you sould visit some grids sometimes, Many can create content and do in opensim that does not mean they sell it, you make it seem like this new marketplace is the new opensim jesus,
        Who appointed kitely to this role?as pass me the info please i would love to read this conference and agreement between the 40 top grids choosing kitely

        • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

          I’m not saying that every grid is starving for content. But there are new, startup grids for whom the first challenge is to attract merchants – and the time they spend chasing merchants, is time that they’re not devoting to building their community and special activities.

          You don’t have to shop the Kitely Market if you don’t want to. And you don’t have to go to the stores on OSgrid or Metropolis or Craft or Francogrid or Littlefield. (They all have some great shops, by the way!)

          And you can keep your residents or users from shopping elsewhere, as well. It’s totally your call.

        • Zack Wetherby

          One of the biggest complaints about OpenSim is content – the lack of it and the difficulty of finding it. The Kitely Market will help solve that. Grids with an online marketplace have a substantial advantage in attracting and keeping users over those that do not.

          If/when HG is enabled, OpenSim grids with HG will have access to a marketplace that they didn’t pay a penny to develop. If Kitely gets a small percentage of the sales, so what? They took the risk, they took the time to develop it, they deserve it. Anyone is free to develop a competing service but I would discourage that. We’ve seen how well re-inventing wheels works in other grids, it’s a colossal waste of time.

        • http://excelsior-station.wikidot.com Sarge Misfit

          You keep saying “forced” yet everyone has a choice to go to Kitely or not. Or any other grid, for that matter. Nobody is forcing anyone to list on the Kitely Marketplace, either. And nobody is forcing other grids to connect to the Kitely MarketPlace,

          Furthermore, I have yet to see anyone else working towards a OpenSim-wide Marketplace, other than Kitely. And I think Cariama was, but they seem to have shutdown. Did you complain that Cariama was trying to “force their services” on anyone?

          Just because someone is working on a new service doesn’t mean that they are trying to force it on anyone. It only means that they are developing something new. You don’t want to use the Kitely MarketPlace? Don’t.

          Btw, nobody is stopping YOU from creating your own OpenSim-wide marketplace, either.

    • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

      If you have hypergrid access turned on now, what is currently preventing the people who use your grid from bringing in whatever content they want from other grids?

      Even if you turn off hypergrid access what is going to prevent people from using their viewers to upload content they have just downloaded from some website that sells or gives away OpenSim-compatible content?

      Unless you’re actually willing to actively prevent people from uploading content into your grid, people are going to get content into it without your prior approval. If that is a problem for you or your organization then you shouldn’t enable hypergird access and you should require people to use viewers that don’t allow uploading any content.

      If you don’t want to prevent people from uploading content into your grid, then why do you care if the content they bring into it was bought inworld on another grid or if they got it in a marketplace that another grid operates?

      • Guest

        I know you like to get to the tech points but forcing your business model on others is not welcome, If you were as a better business developer you would see why many grids will not trust a grid who gives there land for free while starving other grids, this marketplace up as a weaponized process against smaller grids to dominate the market under the pretext on innovation but only grid to win even with commission is kitely as you are starving others with your free land,
        Grids compete but this is not competing.

        • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

          My personal allegiance is to the customers. The more choices they have, the more shopping opportunities, the happier they are — and the more likely they are to use OpenSim and recommend it to others.

          More users means more opportunities for others. Some people like Kitely. Others like InWorldz or OSgrid or Metropolis. Some prefer small grids with tight, engaged communities.

          The grids aren’t fighting one another for users. The main battle is to attract new users to OpenSim. There are so many people out there who could benefit from, and enjoy the opportunities here, but don’t know about it. Anything that bring attention and visibility is a good thing.

          Fighting over the existing users is pointless — there aren’t enough of them to support anybody.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            Not to pick on ya Maria, but I can’t imagine how you would think “The grids aren’t fighting one another for users”…as this is a major problem, actually.

            In fact, just now I was talking to someone in opensimcity.org about this very thing.

            It is, in fact, what I think is a serious problem with commercial grids, one in which I hope will be somewhat alleviated once Kitely’s MP gets going more.

            And it is, in fact, one reason I prefer the free metaverse as this part of commercial grids problems does not exist there.

            As to “The main battle is to attract new users to OpenSim” from what little I see of SL stats, they are the only ones bringing in new ppl in any kind of decent numbers…likely due to all their entrenched advertising and their age in all this.

            The problem, imho, is retention. Obviously, based on numbers, even SL is not having much luck in that regard, and since it is so closed, the ones who may find other grids of interest, are not finding them since they do not know they even exist.

            I doubt any other grids attempts in this regard will do much good either, which is what you may be referring to.

            From what I have seen the other grids are all busy trying to get whomever they can from SL, and, largely failing.

            So, I don’t know, maybe I misunderstand what you said, or, more likely, I am just a clueless nobody with no sense at all.

          • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

            You’re right — some grids are fighting with one another. I guess I should say they SHOULDN’T be fighting one another. Once a person enters the OpenSim metaverse, they typically move around between grids, finding one they like that’s a perfect fit.

            The big hurdle is to get people to come from Second Life into OpenSim in the first place — that’s where the bulk of the potential new customers are, not poaching from neighboring grids.

            Second Life has something like 50,000 concurrent users at any one particular time. This might be down from the 80-90K numbers of the past, but is still more users than log into the public OpenSim grids all month.

            And these are relatively easy pickings — SL users already know how to use a viewer, they’ve gone through the hard parts of the learning curve. And if there’s a tight community of users in SL — a particular role-playing group, for example — they can get better service and more land at a fraction of the price.

            The super hard part is getting people from outside Second Life to try OpenSim. Companies, schools, non-profits, individual users, groups, and so on.

            Any grid that does this is a hero.

            I think this is what Kitely is trying to do, with their easy web-based signups and logins, free trial regions, new marketplace, and so on.

            And some of the people who try out Kitely aren’t going to like it. They might want more of a community feel. Or an always-on map they can walk across. Or more user controls. Or whatever. They can just take their viewer and use it to go to any of those other grids. With hypergrid, they can just teleport over to other grids, try them out, and, if they like them, move there.

            And reaching out doesn’t have to mean huge, AOL-style advertising buys. Grids can focus on marketing to particular niche audiences, like a vampire grid advertising on vampire-related blogs, buying vampire-related AdSense ads, that kind of thing.

            Each one of these efforts might be tiny, but if they bring in outsiders, then they’re benefiting everybody.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            agreed…so, the next step is…find qualified marketing ppl to do this-)) [not just some person who says they are]

          • Samantha

            Rather sad you think it ok to poach members from any format
            you find secondlife as the ‘got to destroy grid’
            Got news for you it is never going to happen,

            Most secondlife content creators have to much invested
            as we built secondlife,

            you sould know only reason most content creators allow the content here is on a comparison view as if twins secondlife is the healthy baby while opensim is found to be a child inflicted with down syndrome type issues ,

            while we love both only one will ever fully live a true life while the other will struggle its whole life to overcome challenges,

            I know this forum is Anti-Secondlife and your talk of its ok to steal secondlife members will not go unnoticed or unspoken about,

            Just know Maria just advice from the council

            In their work, journalists of all media must constantly bear in mind the basic rules of human relations, and the public’s right to information, freedom of expression and criticism.

            1

            A journalist aims to do nothing which may bring his profession or professional organisation, newspaper or newsroom into disrepute. He must avoid anything which may be deleterious to public opinion of the journalist’s work or damage the interests of the profession. A journalist must always be honourable in his dealings with colleagues.

            2

            A journalist is aware of his personal responsibility for all that he writes. He bears in mind that he is generally perceived as a journalist, even when not expressing himself as such, in writing or the spoken word. A journalist respects the necessary confidentiality of his sources.

            3

            A journalist observes the highest possible standards in gathering information, processing this information, and in presentation, and shows the utmost tact in sensitive cases. He avoids all that may cause unnecessary pain or humiliation to the innocent, or those who have suffered.

            4

            Should a journalist accept a bribe or use threats in connection with publication of material, this is counted a very serious violation. Journalists must always be conscious of when names should be published for the sake of public safety, or in the public interest. In accounts of legal and criminal cases, journalists must observe the general rule that every person is innocent until proven guilty.

            5

            A journalist must do his best to avoid conflicts of interest, for instance by reporting on companies or interest groups in which he himself is involved. He must primarily serve the interests of the readers, and the honour of the journalistic profession in all that he undertakes in the course of his work.

            A journalist writes always on the basis of his convictions. He makes sure not to confuse editorial material of clear informative and educational value with advertising in pictorial and / or written form.

            This code of ethics does not limit the freedom of expression of journalists who write under their full name clearly defined items in newspapers, e.g. criticism, where the writer’s personal views are of the essence.

          • Guest

            “The big hurdle is to get people to come from Second Life into OpenSim in the first place — that’s where the bulk of the potential new customers are, not poaching from neighboring grids.”

            Maria, with this comment you show your true colors. Each Second Life user who reads your words will never choose an OpenSim grid as home. They had reasons to fear, to meet there more people like you!

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            And, now we see these grid wars in action, once again-))

            I have seen so much of this in my short few years in this aspect of VR and read of it before my time…is it any wonder this is all shrinking?

            Oh well…

  • Robert Graf

    So, let me see if I have this straight…. If you are for total freedom, ability to have choices galore when it comes to land/content – both free and paid… Then according to some folks you are a capitalist pig sellout According to them taking away your freedom to choose, limiting everyone to their vision and only their vision of what virtual worlds should become…. No Thanks…. I’ll take freedom of choice over what they want to force on everyone else.

    One more reason to love opensim – Freedom. With no central governing authority a tyranny of the minority can’t be established and forced on everyone else. No one individual or group of individuals can force you to live under their tyranny. Unlike the mothership – SL…. lol!! ; )_~~~

    • Gaga

      Well put Robert!

  • Samantha

    Hello Everyone,

    I would like to point out a few things as one of SL’S largest full permission content creators,

    One is most secondlife content creators allow grid export already with a permit
    the reason for this if there is issues on another grid regarding TOS then we can match up with secondlife account and the advantages that provide,
    Also this allows builders to sell what they bought in SL and other grids,

    Two is last night we looked at other sellers allowing export was well over 1100
    if that’s not enough content for other grids then you are to picky,
    just buy in secondlife and take to your grid,
    mesh files sould be already uploaded if you bought the.dae files

    Three as for other marketplace most will refuse to see as the thousands in our builders groups anyways,

    Four almost all creators full perm wise will not allow there kits to just be passed around 1000 grids from one sell on kitely marketplace that also takes 45 days to get your money then possible chargebacks no thanks(_)

    Five Most limited permission sellers of clothing or home improvement will not or cannot sell to other grids that are not closed due to god powers the regions have
    that allow permission changes on a dime can kitely control this? (Nope),

    Six
    Most will likely open up shops in Avination,Inworldz,Spoton3d,Cloudparty,
    Island oasis, that have proven not spoken of IP enforcement but proven
    Most are offering us free high prim stores and direct face to face customer service plus no long payout delays and real inworld traffic and as a bonus my store does not have to wait 5 minutes for someone to turn my region on for my customers to shop or will my customers get charged just to visit as cell phone plans are just that for cell phones
    This is not 2009 while this marketplace has merits but to claim it is better then SL
    marketplace is a real turnoff, base your claim on a track record not hype as for myself and other builders who have been in this game to long to have noob tricks pulled on us.
    Thanks for taking the time to hear our voice,
    Samantha and the Content Creators Union

    • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

      yes, it is probably true that the SL MP had nobody join it when it started, as it had no track record…dunno, I wasn’t there.

    • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

      Hi Samantha :-)

      First to address some of your comments / misconceptions about Kitely:

      You are gravely overestimating the amount of time it takes
      for an offline Kitely world to start up. In many cases, it takes around 30-45 seconds and, if your world is popular, then it probably already has
      someone inside it and therefore there won’t be any delay waiting for it to start.

      Everyone on Kitely gets a free time-based region with 100,000 prims, there is no need to contact us for any special deal to get that.

      Kitely follows the DMCA and has complied with all its registering requirements: http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/agents/k/kitely.pdf

      You can find our online DMCA takedown request here: http://www.kitely.com/copyright_notice

      Second Life Marketplace currently has a lot more content and a lot more buyers but the Kitely Market is already more technologically advanced (even before we finish adding all the features we have planed). Don’t take other people’s word for it, just visit it and see for yourself… :-)

      There is a delay until money is cleared for payout but, once it is, you get it transfered to your PayPal account automatically once a week. If you’re constantly making sales then after the initial 45 days delay you’ll have money coming in every week. Kitely can deduct money from future payouts if a buyer chargebacks but you won’t have to deal with the chargeback yourself. Kitely acts as a middleman and buffers you from having to deal with customer payment issues.

      People who buy from Kitely Market have that item direct delivered to their Kitely avatar’s inventory. Once we enable our hypergrid-delivery mechanism, avatars on other grids will be able to get items delivered to them as well. They won’t need to visit the Kitely grid to do it so the way we charge Kitely users for access shouldn’t be a concern for you if you just create a Kitely Market store. In other words, use free-access sandboxes to upload your content into Kitely and just sell in the marketplace – you don’t need to have an inworld presence in Kitely to sell in Kitely Market.

      Now to address your comments about OpenSim in general:

      As I’m sure you’re painfully aware, the place where your full perm content is most frequently copied (both legally and copybotted) is inside SL. For each sale you make in SL a lot more people are using the full perm content they bought from you inside SL than the number of OpenSim users who share your content.

      If you’re not afraid of one sale in SL being passed around between a million active SL users then why are you so worried about a similar sale to an OpenSim user being passed around between the much smaller number of OpenSim users?

      Moving content from SL into an OpenSim grid is both time consuming and error prone. Many of your potential customers outside of SL are not going to want to contact the merchant, wait for approval, buy the content in SL and then work on getting it into their OpenSim-based grid.

      Many OpenSim users will simply find somewhere where your content is already offered illegally online (in some OpenSim grid or on some website) or opt to buy content from someone else. Those people are lost sales you could be getting money from if you sold your content in a place they know they can easily buy it and have it automatically delivered to their OpenSim avatar.

      This is exactly like getting digital music online: anyone can do a Google search for a song and download an illegal copy in minutes. And yet, iTunes and other convenient marketplaces have sold billions of dollars worth of songs to hundreds of millions of people.

      Even the music industry has figured out that it can sell DRM-free content on the Internet and people will still buy it if it is sold at an affordable marketplace that is easy for their target audience to use. By making things accessible and affordable you can get many people who can steal your content for free to instead give you money to get your content legally.

      It’s a sad reality that many people will just ignore your copyrights if
      they can’t get the content they want from you otherwise. By choosing to
      not offer your content in a marketplace that is convenient for OpenSim
      users to get their content from you’re opting to lose the potential
      sales you could be making to people who would otherwise just steal your
      content from some other place or buy someone else’s content which they
      can get conveniently.

      It seems to me that if you want to maximize your profits then you should
      be trying to maximize your sales revenue instead of ignoring business
      opportunities because you are worried that they can result in more
      people using your content without paying. In other words, Kitely Market
      is offering you a way to make more money from people who would otherwise not pay you. It’s up to you whether you prefer to ignore this and not get paid by them.

      • Joe Builder

        It would really be nice if you can guarantee items on your marketplace wont be ones Copybotted from SL to make a profit. If not would it be fair to call it *The Black Marketplace* Maybe a system to seek out the items that are stolen before having a area to sell them first needs to be in order. Seems we cant give a green light to the lazy thief’s in opensims any longer

        • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

          Kitely Credits are non convertible, we only allow payouts in USD to people who have a verified PayPal account and we are DMCA complaint. If people try to use Kitely Market to sell stolen content the real content creator can get their real identity and take them to court. There are much easier ways to try to profit from copybotted content in SL and other OpenSim-based grids.

          So, to answer your question, we’ve made it harder for people to profit from copybotting on Kitely than in most other places – including inside Second Life where, despite copybotting being rampant, many content creators still happily sell their content.

          • Joe Builder

            Lastly on this, SL has a very unique way to prevent many items from copy botters. They will go into your inventory remove all the objects even then ones you renamed and replace it with a blank prim. That blank prim will be called IP Compliance followed by a Email. This has been in place for some years now, works very well. I have no clue how they do this but it happens a lot. 1 Small example is when you play there M&M boards and chances are its Copied B, next day or up to a week later items are deleted from your inventory. In opensims grid owners want a blood and stool sample to prove it was a certain creator. This is one of the reasons no Top Creators want there hard work in a environment where nothing is governed.

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            Thank you for the comment Joe, it opened the door for me to explain more about the content management capabilities Kitely’s technology provides :-)

            Kitely’s export control system tracks every item sold in Kitely Market both when it is in people’s inventories and when it’s rezzed inside Kitely. The data our system already collects will enable us (once we implement this planned feature) to not only provide the same type of functionality you mentioned existing inSL but to also enable features that SL doesn’t have.

            Kitely Market will soon enable merchants to automatically deliver new versions of their items to their customers – optionally replacing old versions of those items in people’s inventories so no-copy items can be updated with new versions without giving people additional copies.

            Content sold in Kitely Market that is marked no-Export is filtered out from hypergrid access and from OAR exports. Merchants that are willing to sell in closed OpenSim grids can sell no-Export content in Kitely and be assured it will be protected just as well, if not better, than on those other grids.

            Allowing export may have a higher risk for illegal copying of that content but, as mentioned previously, it enables getting money from people who wouldn’t buy from you otherwise. If you’re trying to maximize your profits you want to be selling to anyone willing to give you money. The people who will steal from you can already do so by copybotting your content inSL or getting it (directly or indirectly) from someone else who has.

        • Paul

          What would your solution to the problem be?

          If copy bots are going to copy no matter what you do, should be just give up on all attempts to create a market place in the virtual world?

          Or, should we encourage legitimate use and discourage illegitimate use to the best of our abilities, and try and create a valid market place.

          Saying: Because people will take stuff we therefore can’t have a valid market place is like saying that people shoplift so we should never have any shops.

          I, personally, believe we should be trying to move the real world economies towards post scarcity economies (we are in a scarcity economy where the rules of supply and demand is in effect – a post scarcity economy is one where it no longer applies). There are many cases where we are moving towards such a post scarcity economy (Google search, etc).

          The trick to beating illegal copiers is not to fight directly against them. Legitimate businesses are legitimate because they agree to work by a set of rules, the illegal copiers don’t have those restrictions and so they will be able to beat any attempt to stop them.

          What you need is to provide something that can not be copied, and so can not be stolen by the illegal copiers. This is can be simply “Customer Service”.

          If you treat the product as a free product, but instead are charging the buyer for after sales service, then it doesn’t matter if someone copies your stuff as they won’t have access to your after sales services.

          Of course, an online marketplace does not have such a simple solution as described above, but it does offer such services: Searching, Product and Merchant aggregation (this is also why Malls in real life are so successful too), Purchase histories and other sales statistics, and so on.

          These are things that are not really feasible for someone who is copy botting to replicate, and add value to the items listed in a valid marketplace.

          because an online marketplace is moving towards a post-scarcity economy, then the value of the items in the market place are not based on a limited supply and a large portion of the value is based on the services offered by the marketplace, then someone copying an item does not cause such a great effect as it would if the item was in a scarcity market (eg: shoplifting fruit from a fruit shop).

          Also, if you think about it. There are many affordable (and even free) online merchant software available today. It would be possible for any merchant on one of the online virtual world marketplaces to set up their own online market.

          The question you need to ask then, is: Why doesn’t everyone do this?

          There are two main reasons:
          1) It is not a trivial thing to do. It is hard and requiers a bit of technical skill. However, this is not really a barrier as someone could create a “Template Style” system where it would become trivial to set it up (there already exist such systems for other products)
          2) There is more value to be had by having an aggregated marketplace than a fractured market place. Having a few (so there is competition between marketplaces) online market places gives Merchants and Buyers an easy way to access the products they want. It saves them time and effort and increases the sales the merchant will make. It is therefore much more valuable for a merchant to list in a big marketplace than to set up their own private one.

          As illegal copiers would not be able to list on the big Marketplaces without being found out, then this limits the size of the potential sales they can make. This is because the big market places add value, and it is this loss of value that causes them to have a lower “profit” from their activities.

          • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

            There are two major ways a big, popular marketplace fights copybotting:

            1. It gives creators a place to check to see if their content is being illegally distributed, and have it taken down immediately — and the money taken back from copybotters. This is much easier than checking all of the stores on each of 200-plus grids.

            2. It reduces the potential market for copybotters. Why get stuff from some shady fly-by-night store that might have viruses, or land you in legal trouble, when there’s a convenient, easy place to get it instead?

            Finally, to folks who think hackers are going to use the market to get content to distribute: are you seriously saying that copybotters are going to pay for content? There’s a reason they’re copybotters.

            The people paying for content are the ones who are NOT copybotting. They’re your customers.

            Will a legitimate customer take exportable content to a private grid, give himself God powers, change the permissions, and give the content to a friend? Maybe. Or he might just say, “Here’s the link” and send them to the store. It would be easier, and it’s not like the prices for virtual goods are a barrier for anyone.

          • KeithSelmes

            Plus one for an interesting read.
            On the point of setting up e-commerce for distributing opensim content, I had that in mind, and personally shouldn’t find it too challenging, but Kitely have set up the marketplace, so perhaps I don’t need to – perhaps I can let them concentrate on that, while I do what I really prefer doing and simply load the results on their system. As per point (2) I suppose.

          • Joe Builder

            First and foremost figure a way to deter the thief’s from selling any item that’s stolen. When a Marketplace is active in opensims that’s just a green light for the thief’s to profit. There is no policing, no rules or actions taken for any thief in opensims. SL for example takes action, I have seen it on many occasions. I you point a finger at someone in SL for example there inventory is looked over with a fine tooth comb. This technology is years away from being effective in opensims. So now our free metaverse is turning into a lets see who can make a profit. All the tech minds at work like Renee Miller mentioned earlier should work on a cure rather than spread the virus known as stolen items. I will correct myself not all will be stolen but you can bet majority will. If you can do that or make attempt to curb the thievery more SL creators will be happy to jump on Kitely’s Marketplace

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            Hi Joe,

            We can’t police what goes on in other grids but we do police what goes on in Kitely.

            We elected to file in the DMCA paperwork despite not being a US-based company and we provide an online form you can use to file DMCA takedown notices which is much easier than requiring you to fax us your DMCA takedown request: http://www.kitely.com/copyright_notice

            In the two cases were people brought assumed copyright violations to our attention (even without filling a proper DMCA takedown notice) we contacted the world manager of the world were the suspected copybotted content was used and the content was removed from our servers within 2-3 hours of when the complaint was made. Both cases were of people using something which they got for free on “the hypergrid” and those people were more than happy to buy a license to use the items if the merchant was willing to sell them one. To complete the story, that well-known SL merchant wasn’t willing to sell them licenses so they just went looking for other items after removing the previously unbeknown to them copybotted copies of that merchant’s items from their worlds and inventories). The merchant could have sold two more copies, she preferred not to. Not doing so didn’t remove the copybotted content from “the hypergrid” (so other people could still steal it) it just cost her two easy sales she could have made.

            Had this content been legally offered in Kitely Market those people wouldn’t have wasted time looking for freebies on other grids, they would have simply bought it in the Kitely Market. Which is exactly what Maria, myself and others are saying. If you give most people a chance to buy your content for an affordable price and have it delivered to them automatically then many people who may have gotten that content illegally (even without knowing it was stolen) would have just bought it from you to save them the hassle of needing to find where such content can be found.

            We have a 2 for 2 record of quickly handling reported copyright violations. There simply weren’t any more reported cases for us to handle since March 2011 when we opened Kitely to the public. I think our record is very good when it comes to copyright enforcement so your assessment that “when a Marketplace is active in opensims that’s just a green light for the thief’s to profit” is not true in our case.

            Even the way Kitely’s delayed payouts system works gives time for copyright owners to prevent content thieves from being able to sell stolen content and quickly take out the money before they are caught. Can you say the same thing for SL where copybotted content is traded inworld and the profits from those illicit sales is exchanged for real money and taken out of SL before the thieves are caught? (if this no longer happens in SL then that’s news to me…)

            In Kitely the only place you can get real money out is in the Kitely Market and that is much easier for content creators to track (periodically search for new items in the categories in which you create content). As long as people report the person selling their stolen goods before 45 days pass since the goods where sold we can stop the money from getting to the thief. Can Second Life give content creators that power to protect people from illegally profiting from their content?

          • Joe Builder

            That’s perfect if you can manage content in kitely and guarantee Kitely Items are legit than your Marketplace is a good thing, As long as it stays in kitely. Otherwise you can not guarantee or police like you said outside of kitely. Problem solved. Keep the Marketplace within the walls of kitely

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            The nice thing is that we don’t have to keep Kitely Market closed for it to be safe for merchants to sell their goods. We give the merchants themselves the power to decide which items they want to keep Kitely-only (i.e. no-Export) and which items they wish to allow to be taken out of Kitely or delivered to other grids.

            This way Kitely Market merchants can decide whether or not they wish to also try profiting from selling to people in grids where other people may be profiting from selling copybotted versions of their content. I’d personally recommend merchants use this option to profit from people who wouldn’t pay them otherwise. However, merchants can also decide to skip this option and make sure only other people would be able to make money from selling their content in those grids.

            In other words, we’re not forcing any Kitely Market merchant to sell to hypergrid-connected grids, we’re giving them the *option* to do so in a way that can help them reduce illegal copybotting of their content by getting some of the sales copybotters would have gotten otherwise.

          • RestrictedTruth

            Here make sure to delete one to maria you delete them all
            just shows your bias for IIan & Kitely
            Both you share same faith correct? you and IIan?
            Minethere is IIans Wifes Alt Correct?

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            Kitely only transfers money to Verified PayPal accounts. “In the US, a Verified member has either added and confirmed a bank account with PayPal or received approval for a PayPal Plus credit card.” see: https://www.paypal.com/en/webapps/mpp/security/verification-faq

            This means that in order to get money out of Kitely under a fake identity you would need to either also open a bank account under that identity or have a good enough credit history for that identity. Both these things require stealing someone’s social security number and creating a lot more transaction records than just using cash to buy a prepaid credit card.

            Identity Theft can happen but it isn’t as simple to do as what you described. In addition, the person willing to steal someone’s identity is risking being caught for a federal crime the punishment for which can be up to 30 years in prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_theft#United_States

            There is no national ID system in the states so companies such as PayPal have had to create a lot of policies and employ a lot of identity scoring procedures to prevent their systems from being used for illegal transactions (PayPal being one of, if not the most, advanced in this respect).

            It’s true that there is a lot of fraud using PayPal but that is mostly related to people’s PayPal account’s being broken into, people using PayPal to make transactions and then using PayPal dispute period to dispute them, and people using stolen credit card information with unverified PayPal accounts. The cases where stolen identities are used with verifiyed paypal accounts exist but stating that “paypal has hundreds of millions of dollars worth of fraud everyday” is confusing the issue with irrelevant facts – that fraud amount if not the amount that is connected to people using Verified PayPal accounts created using stolen identities.

            Kitely waits until the 45-day PayPal dispute window is over before clearing money for transfer to merchants. SL’s LindeX and other virtual currency exchanges have a much shorter wait time before thieves can get their hands on ill-gotten money. Unlike in SL and other grids where real money can originate from inworld activity, which is very hard for content creators to track, in Kitely all real-money activity is a result of easily detectable trade in a marketplace where anyone can view what is being sold.

            All a content creator needs to do to find items that may be his or hers being sold by someone else is (once every few weeks) sort by Newest Items and look in the categories that are relevant to what he or she creates. Given our delay before clearing money, a prudent content creator can prevent any money being passed to content thieves.

            (I’m intentionally leaving out mention of tech that can help us automate this detection process but I’m sure you’ve realized by now that Kitely develops a lot of automation and, as we’re focusing on the Kitely Market, that we’ll be adding a lot more features to that component of our solution).

            As I’ve mentioned previously the DMCA is just one way to get us to remove content. You can also file a report with us via other online forms and we’ll pursue it as well. One way for us to do so is to seek out the supposedly real content creator’s contact information and verify that the person making the copyright complaint is that person (which is what we currently do when people request to change their Kitely login information).

            Can someone also hack the real content creator’s email address and communicate with us that way? Sure, but then that person could probably also retrieve enough data and passwords to clear the content creator’s bank account. Again, identity theft is a federal crime and trying it with Kitely and all the logs we keep is a lot riskier than trying to use another website / grid to sell stolen virtual goods. Our solution isn’t perfect but it’s a hell of a lot better than that of SL and other grids that have an exchangeable virtual currency you can acquire in hard-to-trace inworld activity and liquidate in a matter of days.

          • http://www.virtualclover.net/ Serenity Sinclaire

            Joe, seriously…you’re entirely too paranoid about thievery so maybe you should consider taking up something safe, knitting, perhaps.

            If things get copybotted, oh well, it’ll happen…and it’s not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. It’s a cartoon. It’s digital. It has zero intrinsic value. Do you think the creators of those social media icons to your left are having a coronary over all the people who’ve copied and used them without paying? No. It’s just not that big a deal to rational, secure sorts.

            Why you harp so much about copybots is a mystery. It doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. And most of us here seriously doubt you create anything that outstanding that it’s forcing you to live on your knees in fear and agony over the possibility somebody will steal it and not pay you for it.

          • Joe Builder

            LOL Go to my Google Plus page and feast your eyes haha. I make things move and done a rather good job on it to boot. Here is 1 small example I make vehicles that move twice as fast as SL allows. What have you done?? to compare.

    • Gaga

      Oh, the content creators Union. lol
      SpotON3D, right?

  • Heavy Hitter

    Looks like everyone disagreeing to agree
    these are hallmark moments indeed

  • AviWorlds

    I do not understand a marketplace where the merchants cant CASH out? Or they can? Can this be explained a little more? Cause who would want to expand into a market to earn PLAY MONEY. Kitely does not offer CASH out for their virtual currency at least not yet correct?

    • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

      Kitely Credits are a non-convertible virtual currency, and we intend to
      keep them that way, so if you receive KC you’ll be able to use them in
      Kitely (including to pay Kitely for its services) but you won’t be able
      to convert them into real money. However, you don’t have to sell your items for KC, you can sell them for real money instead (US Dollars).

      Kitely Market merchants can choose to sell their products for Kitely Credits, US Dollars, or both. When a product is bought using KC we transfer those KC to the merchant immediately (less Kitely’s fee). When a product is bought for USD we hold on to the money for 45 days to get past PayPal’s transaction dispute window. Within a week afterwards, we transfer the money to the merchant’s PayPal account automatically (less Kitely’s fee, and subject to a minimum payout amount). Kitely Market fees are explained here: https://kitely.atlassian.net/wiki/display/doc/Kitely+Market+Fees

      When merchants sell their items for US Dollars they receive these USD
      into their PayPal account automatically (after a certain delay, as
      explained above). Unlike some other marketplaces, we don’t force all
      purchases to be converted into our grid’s virtual currency. This
      eliminates a problem we’ve heard from many merchants, that they fear
      being stuck with a virtual currency that they don’t need, or they just
      don’t want the hassle of converting it into real money. Kitely maintains
      anonymity for both buyers and sellers: they each see only the other
      party’s virtual identity, but not their real-world identity.

      You can start selling in Kitely Market for USD even before you set up a verified PayPal account. We’ll also process your transactions if there is a temporary problem with your PayPal account. We’ll send you an email if we encounter a problem transferring money to your PayPal account and we’ll hold USD we receive and can’t deliver to you for up to 90 days – giving you time to fix the problem that is preventing us from being able to transfer you your earnings (during which time we’ll continue trying to transfer money to you once per week).

      Kitely Market offers you a more robust way to sell virtual goods for real money. It also saves you from having to deal with PayPal disputes and buyer chargebacks yourself.

  • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere
  • Amy Storm

    Content on the Kitenly site is still limited, dated and mostly unattractive. There is a third alternative which involves negotiating with Second Life and Open Sim creators.

    There is good content available as as downloadable templates, PSD files, .dae, and sculpt maps. Some of it will cost an Open Sim Grim no more than a Second Life resident. Other creators charge a multi-grid licensing fee or place an extra charge on individual items.

    Good legal content is out there. You just have to go beyond the obvious.

    • Joe Builder

      Very true Amy, Problem is most people are lazy and don’t want to be bothered with legitimate. I would imagine the kitely Market will be ok on a small scale, but as a break through like something needed that isn’t going to happen in Opensims. Unless some serious changes take place. Remember if creators want to sell there creations they do so in SL. Whole different platform in Opensims.

      • Drakeo55

        not true joe let me tell you a thing or two oh brother my eyes have looked at the some of the data and very close the people at kitely have made firestorm hookup seemless maybe better then secondlife does its much better then the garbage inworldz compiling on code
        lazy is choice goes back to the romans with the castle system taste the big mac souce joe kitely is the breakthru

    • Drakeo55

      kitely is just a better mousetrap also a whole lot cheaper see they have to put the cheese out to get the rats to come
      secondlife builders only think about the money nothing else if kitely adds
      enough features the rats will come to feed so Ilan just needs to add more cheese to be the pied piper of build monkeys

      • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

        If sl builders really want to enjoy building, and in a commercial grid environment, then Kitely, with it’s 100k per worlds region setup is ideal.

        No other commercial grid is doing this…frankly, imo, they can’t, due to their lack of configuring the software to do so and their business models will not allow it anyways.

        Just another facet of why Kitely is the go-to grid.

        Btw, I saw Adam on my visitor counter in the Kitely Plaza…tell him I caught him peeking-)))

    • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

      It just opened, and it has 780 items on it right now. As well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is possible some think the content you make is “mostly unattractive” also. It is the nature of people.

      As I heard it, you’re involved with Littlefield grid now anyways, where content is free, as it is in many places in the Meta. Sounds like it is a good fit for you.

      Attempting to insult and belittle people who simply wish to make a buck is churlish and unattractive…not to mention rude and trollish behavior.

      I think a wait and see attitude is more intelligent behaviour with this Kitely MP. And all the smallish attempts to drag it down to a lowest common denominator level with some folx mindsets will effect nothing in this regard.

      There are a lot of people who like Kitely, more than many other of these commercial grids, and it is growing very well, as even Maria’s stats show.

      Personally I want to be associated with innovative things as that is the only way this software will do anything other than keep on doing what sl started, which all other commercial grids do, and are failing.

      There are those who will insult anything that is not what “they” think is good, but when one looks deeper it is only someone with a stupid little agenda.

      All the comments here based on simplistic agenda nonsense are obvious, anyways.

      • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

        Thank you Minethere.

        Just one note, there are 780 product listings in the Kitely Market at this time but some product listings include more than one item variation and some also include demo items. There are actually more than 1000 different items sold in Kitely Market at this time (not counting demo items).

        It’s important to remember that the search results show the number of product listings not the number of product variations. In Kitely Market merchants can list 20 different item variations (e.g. different colors) in one product listing with variations (each variation can have its own pictures, prices permissions, etc.). This isn’t supported in other marketplaces so people just create 20 different product listings for what in Kitely would be shown in a single product listing. As a result the total number of products shown in search results is lower than the number of item vairations that are actually on sale – making it look like there are less unique product in Kitely Market than there actually are.

        • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

          I hear ya. I only can see that total number on the MP website so that is all I can point people to for an “obvious” number.

          Perhaps you can add a “total” number with variations someplace? Might be useful, especially for me, who likes to use real numbers clearly stated where people can see, whenever I can.

          But I am happy to supply you with another doorway to tell folx this-)))))

      • Guest

        Mine – I’m in agreement with you. The deroggatory remarks are not the concensus of the administration at LFGrid and I’d like to apologize for that remark. That’s representative of our mindset at LFGrid. Everyone’s content has merit, and there should be no judgement of what someone perceives is a “quality item”. Any item someone spends their time to design, create, etc.. is in our opinion a “quality” piece of content. The fact that it is free, or costs money, or what have you has no bearing in the quality of the item whatsoever. I’ve seen both pay and free items that are incredibly high quality. The goal is to get “more” content into Opensimulator in our opinion, and we support anyone that is moving toward attaining that goal.

      • Walter Balazic

        Mine – I’m in agreement with you. The deroggatory remarks are not the
        concensus of the administration at LFGrid and I’d like to apologize for
        that remark. That’s not representative of our mindset at LFGrid.
        Everyone’s content has merit, and there should be no judgement of what
        someone perceives is a “quality item”. Any item someone spends their
        time to design, create, etc.. is in our opinion a “quality” piece of
        content. The fact that it is free, or costs money, or what have you has
        no bearing in the quality of the item whatsoever. I’ve seen both pay
        and free items that are incredibly high quality. The goal is to get
        “more” content into Opensimulator in our opinion, and we support anyone
        that is moving toward attaining that goal.

        • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

          not sure which one of these to reply to so I will use this one with your name still attached…lol…as far as I know, you cannot delete comments but you can edit them to say whatever…like, sorry disqus borked and I posted twice…lol

          And I would say right off that I hope your posting here does not lead to others posting their own agendas related to you…unfortunately, they will, and I will ignore them, as I hope you do also as this article has been hijacked way more than it should have been, already, when it is actually very informative.

          I must say that Ilan has been extremely patient in his responses, I would have gone all Texan and pulled out my guns by now-))

          I should reiterate in this that I am not one to be what is faddishly called “a fangurl” of any grid anymore. I see things from many places in this VR iteration that I think are cool, and I comment about them when in the mood.

          I actually make sure I have no aspect of favoritism in any grid as that is one thing I despise is done to often.

          I understand that, of course…though I have never been to your new grid, I do know that it is full of very high quality content from some of the best creators around who give freely….and those people, as well as others in the free Meta, who do this, are really the best, imo.

          I take part of your comment as implying you feel that the Kitely MP might be used as an adjunct to the free items offered in your grid, and please forgive me if I misunderstand and feel free to correct me.

          However, if so, I think it represents forward thinking on your part. There is no reason whatsoever that the Kitely MP cannot work in conjunction with free content across the Meta, at all….options, to me, are absolutely cool.

          I would have to say, in closing, and purposefully put below the fold comment-wise, that it is my opinion apologies are best when given by the offender…and go a long way towards promoting kindness in the Meta.

          I think more of them should be done in other regards, but that is an altogether different subject I do not wish to be a part of.

          • Walter Balazic

            Mine – yes the other one I misspelled something and tried to delete it to no avail. Honestly, I simply intended to point out that nobody’s content should be shurgged off and that none of the members of our admin team or grid feel that anything that anyone would want to contribute would be unwelcome or considered sub-par. Today’s brand new content creator making a simple T-Shirt giving it away for free is tomorrow’s Content Creator creating enitre OAR’s for people to have and use on their regions. How Kitely decides to handle a service that nobody is really “forced” or “obligated” to use one way or the other is really up to them. The article I assumed was simply stating the intent of the product and the availability, not questioning it’s feasibility or asking anyone’s opinion of if they “liked it” or not. Anytime anyone does anything for the VW that moves it forward in one way or another is a positive situation in our opinion.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            “Anytime anyone does anything for the VW that moves it forward in one way or another is a positive situation in our opinion.”

            true that…

      • Amy Storm

        Minethere, you are correct. My comments were unacceptable and rude. I wish I could take them back, but I can’t. All I can do is apologize and promise to think before I speak again.

        I’m actually in favor of content creators being paid for their work and do buy content in Second Life and InWorldz. I regret having said anything about Kitely’s new venture and wish them well. New and innovative ideas need support not negativity. I’m sorry they didn’t get it from me.

        Amy.

        • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

          that is a wonderful thing to see-)) and 809 items [with variations] on there now.

          • Joe Builder

            Let me ask you, Just curious what does a Fangurl. Advertiser, promoter, and a blog writer get paid for working for Kitely these days? is things in RL that bad? Just wondering being your the loudest one talking these past months.

          • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

            Speaking from personal experience, Kitely still isn’t spending anything on marketing or advertising.

            I do encourage more OpenSim vendors to advertise in OpenSim-related blogs and publications (such as this one), which will help increase the amount of news and information available to the community. Here at HB, we use advertising revenues to pay for hosting, and to pay freelance writers.

            It doesn’t help that we have a habit of jumping all over bad-news stories about companies, even when they’re our advertisers. We lose the advertisers, but it’s better than losing readers.

            We’re already missing stories because of insufficient staff, time, energy, or general stupidity. If we added “kow-towing to advertisers” to the mix, we’d have no readers at all.

            (I’ve seen publications get on this slippery slope, and die quickly as a result. I don’t want that to happen to Hypergrid Business after four years of work!)

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            You need to stop focusing on me so much Joe, it is unhealthy and kinda stalkish…if you get my meaning.,,it’s kinda weird too.

            I should think promoting other people and what they do would be considered a -good- thing, and I expect it is considered such by most people.

            I have observed only those who have some mental deficiencies of some kind or other, and selfish agendas, think otherwise.

            I comment more than some and less than others. Seems to me you do more than I do, and it is most often negative. Try being positive and nice when you do, it is much more pleasant.

            Real life for me has it’s problems, as it does for most people…I tell some folx of mine, mostly in private.

            Try not to focus on me Joe, really, it is sad…and it makes no difference at all, in the larger scheme of things.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            840 now, and some new creators…this is really very interesting-))

          • Joe Builder

            Since this Topic is Kitely Marketplace vs SL Marketplace, I figured only Fair to add some Numbers :) SL MarketPlace is now only 2187781 Items, Kitely is what? oh yeah you said 840. Again someone needs to remove SL out of any sentence with Opensims in it. I’m only going by the name of this thread.

    • RestrictedTruth

      Could not agree more and refuse as a grid owner to bow down to kitely
      with a business model of do business with us or die
      Make any noise they send minethere to come and break your leg business kinda ethics bordering on mafia tactics LOLOL

      • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

        Hi FinalSolutionForU,

        No one is forcing anyone to use Kitely Market.

        Merchants will use Kitely Market because it helps them earn more with less effort. If they choose to not open a shop in your grid because they can get to “your users” with less effort then that’s their choice.

        “Your users” will use Kitely Market because they’ll be able to buy what they’re looking for with less hassle and have it delivered to any grid that doesn’t intentionally block Kitely Market. If they avoid using grids, such as yours, that try to limit their content choices that’s up to them.

        Some grid owners will sign up for the Kitely Market Affiliate Program to get revenue from transactions their users make. Transactions which they wouldn’t profit from when those people travel the hypergrid for their shopping. Other grid owners will simply not go out of their way to block the Kitely Market hypergrid delivery mechanism so their users will have access to more content (I know it’s hard for you to believe but there are grid owners that actually care about their users freedom…).

        In any case, use Kitely Market or don’t, it’s up to you. The only thing Kitely does is offer you a better deal than you can get in other places – no one is forcing you to accept it. :-)

  • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

    I’m turning off the comments on this post because pretty much everything meaningful has been said — from all perspectives — and at this point all I’m seeing that’s left is personal attacks. If anyone wants to contribute an editorial or opinion column about how they think marketplaces should develop in OpenSim, please email me: [email protected]

  • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

    Kitely Market opened to merchants to start creating stores just 4 months ago. Since that time we succeeded in getting more than 250 merchants to start creating stores in Kitely Market and to activate the listings of almost 1000 product variations. This is quite an achievement for a marketplace that couldn’t offer merchants any revenue until it opened, with the launch date being unknown, and with it being an off season in virtual worlds usage. See: http://www.kitely.com/virtual-world-news/2013/05/11/kitely-market-is-now-open-to-merchants/

    No one is claiming there isn’t a lot of copybotted content in OpenSim but your claim that there isn’t a lot of copybotted content in SL will probably sound a bit off to most SL merchants who read your comment. I don’t need to convince them of what they already know.

    The merchants that know each other’s content in SL won’t stop knowing that content when it’s posted for sale in Kitely Market. If someone finds something that is likely stolen they can notify the real content creator just as they can in SL (possibly even by using SL to contact that creator). Detecting stolen content will even be easier in Kitely Market because of the way our product listings group product variations and demos together – meaning that there are a lot less new product listings to check out.

    Are you aware of the fact that before I Co-founded Kitely I ran a company that developed a software-based solution for identity theft detection and recovery (specializing in preventing new account fraud)? Check out my LinkedIn for details: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ilantochner

    Please believe me when I say I know a thing or two about the ways identity theft can be committed and how it can be combated. There is a big difference between being able to open -A- PayPal account and getting access to a -Verified- PayPal account. The difficulty to obtain such accounts and the amount of digital and real world tracks you leave is substantially different. We only agree to act as a middleman in transactions where the merchant has a Verified PayPal account because we can accept the risk of being left holding the bag when transferring money to holders of such accounts. We can’t accept that risk with holders of an unverified PayPal account which is why we don’t agree to send payouts to them.

    We aren’t exactly a low profile company in this little neck of the woods and we have been openly discussing our plans for more than 8 months before we opened the Kitely Market (in our blog, in Hypergrid Business and in other popular websites). As a result, people who ran SL marketplaces in the past contacted me offering advise, and so have several well known SL/OpenSim merchants. There was nothing preventing any grid owner who wanted to discuss our plans from doing so then and nothing preventing them from doing it now.

    My first reply to Tranquility in this comment thread also stated a previously unannounced plan to establish an affiliate system that pays a percentage to grid owners whenever someone from their grid buys in Kitely Market. I handed grid owners our hand in peace and some of you opted to go on the offensive instead of seeing how the Kitely Market can be a good development for everyone in the metaverse. That is very unfortunate and hurts your businesses as much, if not more, than it hurts Kitely. I urge you to take a step back and reconsider your approach.

  • Joe Builder

    What scares many Creators of quality is the fact they look at Opensims as the 1800′s Wild Wild West, (Lawless) and SL more of a Modern times world. SL has many restrictions in place that’s what makes them #1 in the virtual worlds of today. SL has in place a extreme robust economy along with everything else, pay there price or, cry and move on its very simple. Now opensims try’s hard to copy what SL does in the means of economy, that will not work on any scale enough to write home about. When you place a price on a object use a Marketplace structure to distribute these objects then the problem starts. Small example, I buy a pair of boots from kitely, Then I bring the boots to my grid make it mine with gods powers (anyone can do this) or a sandbox and copy it. Now I can make 1000′s of that 1 pair of boots I bought from you. Turn around and sell them in another venue. This sadly is one small factor why there is no working Marketplace in the land of free. You may spin it any way you like, saying its not gonna happen, But all creators of worth already know all the facts. I do suggest being you placed a lot of hard work into this is, Keep it in kitely with HG turned off.

  • RestrictedTruth

    Yes Kittens & Rainbows
    Here make sure to delete this one well maria you delete them all just shows your bias for IIan & Minethere
    Both you share same faith correct? you and IIan?
    Minethere is IIans Wifes Alt Correct? she was sent to undermind other folx in other grids yes we all found out

  • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

    Let’s take your claims at face value and see if your conclusion makes sense. SL merchants assume that people already bring a lot of copybotted content from SL to OpenSim. The accepted narrative being that if you’re successful in SL then your content is being illegally distributed all over OpenSim-based grids. This is without merchants ever offering their items for sale in any OpenSim based grid – the items are being taken from inside SL.

    What we’re claiming is that if your content is already being illegally distributed then the people currently profiting from that distribution aren’t you. The only way you can make any money in this “1800′s Wild Wild West” is getting some of the people using OpenSim to buy from you instead of getting your content from other sources. Not selling to those people won’t help you protect your content, it will just cost you sales you could have made.

    The way to do that is to use a convenient marketplace and price your content reasonably. This is the conclusion the music industry got to after years of trying to combat illegal music pirating on the Internet. Initially they tried to sell music with content protection (DRM) but they soon realized that they could make more money selling DRM-free music in iTunes instead.

    SL content creators should consider the success of iTunes selling DRM-free music as a case study for profiting from selling content to people who can easily get that content for free in other websites. If you believe your content is going to be illegally distributed then make sure to offer a convenient way for everyone who wants that content to buy it from you instead.

  • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

    Thank you RestrictedTruth, I hope that with time everyone whose initial response was to be suspicious of the Kitely Market will come around to seeing how this can be a good thing for all of us: merchants, buyers, and grid owners alike. :-)

    UPDATE: It seems that RestrictedTruth changed his name to FinalSolutionForU, changed his “I was wrong, Kitely isn’t that bad” comment to “Yes Kittens & Rainbows” and has gotten back to trying to create FUD now under a different identity…

  • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

    Hi FinalSolutionForU (you chose a telling name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution :-)),

    It’s commendable that you wish to take a stand against human rights abuse but if you’re going to boycott any company that pays taxes to the state of Israel then you’ll need to boycott many of the bigger US companies listed in NASDAQ, including Microsoft, Intel, Apple and IBM – they all have R&D offices in Israel and you’re probably using a computer or operating system that includes components the design, or licensing, of which resulted in taxes being paid to Israel.

    There are thousands of such companies covering many of the hardware, software and internet services you use on a daily basis. There aren’t many things you can use which don’t include some Israeli licensed or acquired component somewhere in their design, manufacturing or delivery process. In fact WordPress which this blog uses is built using PHP which was developed by Zend – an Israeli company.

    But why stop there, if you wish to take a stand against human rights abuse by boycotting countries then you should avoid buying anything that includes a component that was made in China – a country with much worse human rights violations than Israel. I’m sure if you looked really hard you’ll be able to find alternatives that don’t include anything made in China…

    And of course you shouldn’t fill your car with gas at the pump because the company from which you buy that gas is probably drilling in countries with worst human rights violations than Israel – some of which are even openly hostile to the United States. Some of the money you pay at the pump goes to pay taxes in those countries.

    I could go on but I hope you get the point by now that arbitrarily boycotting private companies because you don’t like the country they are based in is not very practical and requires either singling out companies or electing to not use many of the things you take for granted.

    … or is this comment just another argument you are trying to make to dissuade merchants and buyers from using a service that can save/earn them time and money? :-)

  • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

    it was “… or is this comment just another argument you are trying to make to dissuade merchants and buyers from using a service that can save/earn them time and money? :-)” and he was baiting you, and his comment sickened me. One of the very few I actually flagged too.

    The kind of people on the net who say such things makes me want to crawl in a hole, even more than I currently do.

  • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

    You’re welcome to write whatever you want, I’m not really replying to you anyway… My comments are aimed at people who may hold similar views or are receptive to them.

    First you have a problem with the country where we reside then you have a problem with our business values. I think you’ll be a bit more persuasive if you open with your supporting arguments, if you’re right it will help convince people of what you say (of course it will also help me provide supporting evidence to the contrary). If you have nothing better to do, go for it :-D

  • RestrictedTruth

    Just freedom of speech glad we can agree on something
    everyone has the same rights as you and minethere glad we can agree to that :-D

    Here make sure to delete one to maria you delete them all
    just shows your bias for IIan & Kitely
    Both you share same faith correct? you and IIan?
    Minethere is IIans Wifes Alt Correct?

  • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

    ok…I will go with this once more comment….because, it does not matter…lol…and I feel pretty good today.

    But since you are an easy mark to allow me to further discuss some things…

    To the matter of so-called friends, really, who the heck is on the net? Some we all find who think similarly to ourselves, and those we gravitate more to, and talk to more often, usually in private. Some have their own selfish agendas for being on the net, and we can buy into those, or not, as our own perceptions of reality lead us. Some are simply mentally deficient in some or one regard, or another. And some are pretty cool, and that kind of thing is obvious to see.

    You are more the “let’s just stir up the pot kinda person”…there are lots like you, and thus you will always find like-minded people to enjoy it….it is the nature of the net.

    Unlike some people, I actually “know” I do not have a clue on many things….and even those I do have some clues about, I rarely speak about publicly…because, A) I know most people do not actually care, and, B) I actually do not much care either…lol

    Now, alternatively, some people on the net speak volumes about things they have no clue about at all, going on and on about stuff, repeating nonsense they heard from other 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc folx, none of which has any basis at all in reality….but, heck, I am fine with that, also.

    As to profits…I have no clue what you are talking about. I have said before, and some even know who read here, I give away my terrains to many people…often if they just ask. This is my entertainment time, my hobby…even answering to you sometimes, a futile thing indeed, is for entertainment.

    I daresay that anyone who finds anything I say that is positive about what they are doing, such as most of my comments in this article, to be something they do not wish me to do, they will tell me so, and likely in private…because, that is what decent people do.

    However, it is sheer stupidity to not want positive reinforcement of any kind for most anything having to do with this VR stuff…there is simply not enough of that being done.

    The fact is that even Walter, whom I disagree with on some things, was, I expect, pleased to see me say something good about his grid…which is what I do.

    People like to see their pet projects spoken well of…or, alternatively, they have no clue what they are doing and have other issues and agendas, and do the equivalent of “banging their head against a brick wall”, which, imo, Beth of inwz does….it is not my place to, nor is anyone asking me, nor am I qualified in any regard, to help such folx.

    I do, however, recognize that some nutcases follow me around [the definition of being a nutcase, imo] and try to make some things I say to be negative….sadly there is nothing I, or anyone else, can do about that. Those same people try to do that with other folx, I just happen to be the flavor of the moment for some, like you.

    I am not interested in your thoughts at all Joe, it is painfully obvious that you have issues, as others I have met over 30 or so years on the net do, also. If one wishes to use the net then it has always been a matter of taking the good, with the bad.

    As to inwz, so unimportant as to be mentioned last in this last response to your latest rantings, and below the comment fold, on purpose…go for it….I think that grid is perfect for you-)) What you do not understand is that while you may wish to find negatives about me there, and you will find nutcases there to pat you on the back and agree with you…the reality is that I still email with a few there who are also out in the greater Meta and we have nice conversations. You will only find those folx who would agree with you there, who have serious mental issues…but, that’s cool, also-)) Most there do not even know me now as is the case in the Metaverse also. You should also join their forums if you have not already. That, also, would be a perfect place for you [just trying to be helpful here].

    We all find those with which we find things in common…right?

    I will, again, not respond to your further here…you are just grandstanding, and it is rather unintelligent grandstanding, at that.

  • Zack Wetherby

    Joe Builder said: “I speak for many Miney, Even for your so-called friends.”

    Speak for yourself pal. This may come as quite a shock to you, but not everybody shares your grid preference or point of view. I for one do not. I happen to agree with Miney on many things and respect her opinions. I cannot say the same about you or yours. Do us all a favor and stay in the land of men in tights that lure kids with cookies and baby talk and that still lacks a working vehicle API. if you like it there, fine, stay there.

  • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

    ty Zack…tho we have already been coupled by one commenter in their new drama forum…lol-)) pretty soon I guess I will be having your babies, virtually, of course-))

    I never ask folx to stand up for me but I always truly appreciate it. Unfortunately it means they will get some flack though, which is why I don’t ask them….I prefer just dealing with it all myself rather than involve others.

    Can’t be helped sometimes though, unfortunately….I have had the oddest connections made via this website though, let me tell ya.

    There is a guy named Michael Sietz who used to have a group, which I actually thought was a good idea, but whom I never actually knew, nor did I ever join his CCC…but another inwz nutcase went on a roll and posted here and other places we all, including Linda Kellie, had some kind of vendetta out for him…it was crazy, really crazy.

    The problem for those folx, unknowingly, is that all they really show themselves to be is dumb shills…which is extremely sad to me, to be honest.

    Joe just has issues…I do feel for him, but the reality is there is nothing that can be done for him, so one must use him for what he is. I think on some level these types of folx get a glimmer of this, and this is why some of them strike out, blindly [tho they also do not realize that either].

    They really only do themselves a disservice, also something they cannot see. They do not understand that when people who think they are smart, but who actually are not, are the easiest ones to get played by those who know how to….basically which is the root of all this nonsense.

    I do try to be careful tho…having known someone in reality who committed suicide, who I still think I could have stopped, which I live with now…I always try to consider this….they also do not understand that either, but it is true, nonetheless.

    Anywho, Maria will be putting her stats up today sometime I hope so we can all move on to more fun and games-))

  • Joe Builder

    I’ll say only this and I’m done with you and your cohorts on this run away topic you decided to hijack. Check the votes by comments made here, and then ask yourself. Why do you even bother. And for some reason you think there all Joe Builder, Ask The moderator to check IP address’s and you will see, many think as I do ones who matter. Your just comic relief for many. Now go back to kitely and kiss up some more maybe you can get something for free.