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119 Comments

  1. maria@tromblyinternational.com'

    More reading:

    Shava Nerad: Dear Linden Lab — you really blew it
    http://eternalmetaverse.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/linden-lab

    Longtime Second Life Content Creators Remove SL Work in Protest Over Linden Lab’s New Draconian Terms of Service
    http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/09/second-life-protest-over-tos.html

    New Terms of Service for Second Life–grants LL the right to sell your work?
    http://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2013/09/2013-help-new-terms-of-service-for.html

    Who the hell owns Second Life anyway?
    http://metaverse-traveller.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/who-hell-owns-second-life-anyway.html

    The greatest heist in virtual history
    http://cityofnidus.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/modus-operandi_11.html

    Linden Lab Changes in TOS August 2013 – Helpful Links
    http://chicatphilsplace.blogspot.com/p/linden-labs-change-in-tos-august-2013.html

    ToS in-world meeting, September 29th: a personal perspective
    http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2013/09/30/tos-in-world-meeting-september-29th-a-personal-perspective/

    Linden Labs Breaks Long-held Trust with Content Creators
    http://kyliesabraspeaks.com/2013/09/27/linden-labs-breaks-long-held-trust-with-content-creators/

  3. boazsands@gmail.com'

    Is there a particular reason you only mention Kitely as a opensim alternative?

    Inworldz also respects content creator’s copyrights. Many content creators from SL already have shops on the InWorldz grid and more have been setting up shop there recently since the SL TOS change.

    I saw the following post from Tuna Oddfellow in another post:
    “….also I am going the do my building out in stages. I will be using InWorldz first because I have roots here that go back to 2010…..” – Tuna Oddfellow

    1. maria@tromblyinternational.com'

      I mentioned them because they sent me a quote right as I was writing this article. And I thought — hey, I’ve got a quote for the article. Other people just sent me links, saying, “Did you see this?” If anyone else is interested in commenting, the comments are wide open.

      But you’re right — Tuna did say he was moving to InWorldz.

      And I disagree with people complaining that he’s moving from one closed grid to another. The TOS on InWorldz is different from the one in Second Life and friendlier towards creators.

      However, I do see many creative types moving to grids where they can make full offline backups of their work — self-hosted grids with Sim-on-a-Stick and New World Studio, or professionally hosted regions on open grids like OSgrid, Metropolis, and Craft, or even commercial grids that allow full region exports, such as Kitely.

      Closed commercial grids like InWorldz, Avination, 3rd Rock, Virtual Highway, Island Oasis, etc… probably feel safer for content creators because of that very fact — their content can’t be easily exported and transferred to other grids. (Copybotters aside – those guys are everywhere.)

    2. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

      If I was to go back into the business and SL wasn’t a option then Inworldz would be my first choice. Only because they have a solid footing in the start of being a (2nd SL) in the fact there always heading in the right direction as far as the 3 biggies Technology/Economy/Community. And since Kitley talks of Hypergate that’s a creators nightmare.

      1. ilan@kitely.com'

        Hi Joe,

        Closed grids that don’t enable buyers to export the content they’ve bought prevent all content from being legally taken to other grids, which limits merchants’ potential customer base to users of that closed grid. This forces merchants to open and maintain multiple stores on multiple grids in order to sell to the people who use them.

        Open grids, on the other hand, enable bought content to be exported and thus provide merchants with access to a much larger customer base, including that of closed grids.

        Kitely’s export control system enables merchants to decide which of the items they sell in Kitely Market can be exported from Kitely to other grids and which can not. This means that Kitely merchants don’t have to choose an all-or-nothing approach when selling their items, They can decide which of their sold items will be non-exportable and thus automatically filtered out of OAR file backups and Hypergrid access, and which will be easily exportable by their customers. Thus merchants selling via Kitely Market get both the content protection benefits of closed grids and the access to a much larger customer base that open grids provide. Kitely merchants can even sell multiple versions of their items with and without this export permission if they want.

        Having said all that, merchants who want to combat illegal use of their content will do best by selling to hypergrid-connected grids instead of acting to make sure that the only way people on those grids can get access to their content is by copybotting it or getting it from someone else who has.

        Record companies are selling songs with no copy protection via iTunes even thou they can then be easily uploaded into file sharing sites. This means that even the RIAA, that has tried many ways to prevent illegal content copying, understands that the best way to combat pirating of your content is to make it easy for everyone to buy it online and use it wherever they like.

        You can see me discuss Kitely Market, copyright protection and various other related issues in the presentation I gave a few weeks ago in the OpenSim Community Conference 2013: http://www.kitely.com/virtual-world-news/2013/09/08/kitely-market-presented-in-opensim-community-conference-2013/

        1. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

          Ok llan, As we all know SL creators are very Leary of opensims in general. And yes you explained it very clear how it works, Only problem I see is that its a new concept and may be a hard sell to most. The longer its up and running and more praises it receives the better the results. And then would it be looked at by some creators for a option as a selling platform.

          1. ilan@kitely.com'

            Hi Joe,

            I agree it’s a new concept to many content creators who are used to the SL way of doing things and that can slow down its adoption. But the process has already started and several well known content creators who’ve made serious money selling inSL have started setting up Kitely Market stores. Some of these merchants have already made hundreds of US dollars in sales selling to people in Kitely (in the month since we opened our marketplace). And this number has the potential to increase significantly once we open our Hypergrid delivery system and Kitely Market’s customer base grows by orders of magnitude.

            You can read about one such merchant in the section about Kitely in Maria Korolov’s latest OpenSim activity update:

            https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2013/09/on-the-grids-in-october/

          2. kmedcoff@gmail.com'

            I’m in the kitely marketplace, and honestly I’d rather be given the option to export to other grids. Saves me a LOT of headaches by having to keep track of too many stores. And honestly, NOTHING is safe on the net. if it can be SEEN it can be ripped. And there are NO tools that will stop that. Kitely’s response team has been amazing. Any time I have had a problem they have gotten back with me almost immediately. unlike linden labs who’s tickets I have to keep resubmitting.

          3. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            The sad thing about Linden Labs is unless your a premium member, you don’t go very far.

          4. arielle.popstar@gmail.com'

            Joe, you have the content to try the hypotheses. Why not test it rather than continually conjecture how creators are all going to robbed blind if they were to offer their content for sale on a hypergrid enabled grid because imo if it’s easier and more convenient to buy it than to steal it, people will buy it.
            Since you were recently considering putting your content out for free anyway, you have nothing to lose by trying out this experiment and will likely gain a few dollars as well as personal experience.

          5. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Its not about me Arielle, 🙂 I just state the facts nothing more, and for the most part people who matter agree with me completely. Lastly on this I came to opensims to be away from such lets make a buck mentality. I never said there going to get robbed blind, Only stated there is nothing in place to govern and police people creations, Where as SL has many things in place to deter such activity. I have to say I did give it some thought about the Free things in my regions which I may very well do in time, But most of it won’t see opensims because I do know someone will change the permissions and make a profit on it and call it there own. There is much to many examples of that already being done.

          6. arielle.popstar@gmail.com'

            Well Joe remember that in s/l you paid $300 per region for that policing and from many S/L creator complaints around the net, that ” SL has many things in place to deter such activity.” is a rather wild claim especially in light of the effectiveness (or lack of) those “many” things.
            Rather unrealistic of you to expect an opensource virtual world that is coded by unpaid volunteers, to attain a level of content security that even LL has not been able to attain in spite of all the monies they have made from their platform.

            I will also point out that the ferreting your content away because of the copybotting paranoia is just another side of the same “let’s make a buck mentality” coin, that you disparage of others. Burying your creations until they are too old and outdated to be of value to anyone including yourself is a solution? Pffft.

          7. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Never owned a SL region, Only small parcels which was plenty, Don’t need a region for store. And to say SL has no tools in play is silly, One must be a creator and a resident of SL to know what SL does about stolen content.

          8. reina_benoir@earthlink.net'

            Given the number of complaints about the same stolen content being constantly re-uploaded after a DMCA complaint was launched It’s hard to see that the SL tools are terribly effective.Certainly no more so than the open sims you complain about.

          9. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            I kinda have to say, even Aurora-Sim has better tools to prevent copybotting. Just try and login in with most copybot viewers, they hard coded viewer spoofing to be turned down. It is not 100% but hell, I can login with just about anything to Second Life.

          10. baby-boy24@aol.com'

            We sould hangout and yiff together someplace look for my mssg that’s being sent.

      2. heavycain22@aol.com'

        Watch out joe !!! ahhh , Minethere has spent weeks rounding up all the support she can get to launch a sudtle attack on you by using so- called friends as a proxy while she keeps her distance with her name out of it ,She needs to get rid of you, your the only one on here who exposes the sugar coated lies on here with knowledge and facts plus she cannot make kitely look flawless when your exposing the flaws
        Her crying game is good as they hope to get you over excited then show it to everyone plus on of these posters is her is so she is fooling both sides of the fence

        They stopped the attacks on inworlds only because they are updating that webpage of lies called Inworldz exposed part 2 so she can hit them again its killing her that inworldz has caught up with mesh/ physics and even surpassed opensim code in most ways so she is launching it with a bunch of avatar testimonials instead by her and zack

        OOPPPS.. CATS OUT OF THE BAG NSA Defector style

        Your friends at Anonymous

        1. trrlynn73@gmail.com'

          just a small point of clarification in all this craziness….and not for you, Joe, or your other accounts here.

          I never use alts or anons to stir up issues. Mostly it is due to it all taking more energy than I have and I have always felt that this is one of the largest problems on the net, and taken to further problems in this little part of it.

          But it is a part of the freedom of the net that I would never wish to see go away, that with freedom will always come some anarchy and I appreciate this, deeply. Thinking people understand this because if we all thought the same it would be quite a boring world.

          Lately I decided to further decrease my participation in all this and this spat of current drama only helps to show me this is a very good idea. I even blogged about it.

          So you can keep bringing my avie name up all you wish to, but it is of no importance.

          I will not be adding more on this particular article and will be very judiciously choosing others I comment on.

          I am just going to enjoy free opensim and relax…leaving all this content strife and the disturbing people who seem to be involved in it, to themselves. To my thinking, all these issues, mostly relating to making paltry amounts of money, are simply not worth the problems coming from it.

          You will, of course, use this comment in some twisted way, and that is ok. I only wish that you find some enjoyment in doing so…if it is at some perceived expense to me…I do not mind this at all. Eventually, in the goodness of time, you will find some kind of peace.

          1. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            LOL again out of the wood work appears Miney or should I say Miss I’m gonna leave Opensims convince me to stay lol, Anyways I always said Maria Knows who’s who here called IP Address I use 1 account and be feared many just see the facts as I state them, Now go back to your solitude

          2. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            You know Joe, you are exactly what I am talking about. You are a perfect example of blaming the plaform. If I was an end user, I would not use OpenSim because of people with your type of attitude, but I am above that.

            I am beginning to wonder why you even use opensim. You seem to trash it enough and help make its name bad and tarnished? Is that your goal? to help keep us back I don’t know another good four or five years?

            Seriously man, reevaluate your life. You seriously have some trolling issues. Defending Second Life’s right to take YOUR hard earned creations (which this article is about) and have the ability to resell them without crediting you. And you can’t sue them, because you agreed to it. I think your anger is miss placed.

          3. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            That’s old news about LL owning all in SL, Nothing new. I love the idea you in fact also have access to all creations on your hosted grids. All a guy like you need to do is type a few words into console now its yours. Make sure you let all your customers know the power you have with there creations. My gripe is every chance you and few others is, every chance you get its bashing time at SL, Damn just pack up your junk and leave that’s all. The only troll here is you, remember without SL where would you be today? nuff said.

        2. zackwetherby@gmail.com'

          You should get a better name for your alt Joe. Anyway, if you represent a typical InWorldz resident then nobody needs to attack InWorldz, you are doing that fine all by yourself.

          1. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Fire off a email to Maria ask her nicely, if any of the other comments come from Joe Builders IP Address or remotely close being I’m from South Florida and IP’s here are closely the same. The many here who post as Guest or with silly names you think is me, LOL your only fooling yourself. Plus I have horrible grammar.

      1. zackwetherby@gmail.com'

        If you are a middle age man, like to wear tights, lure kids with cookies and baby talk, yes, InWorldz is for YOU! InWorldz will happily ignore its own TOS just to accommodate you and your ‘safe harbors’ for kids.

        If you are an adult looking for an adult grid, I would suggest you look elsewhere. There are many FREE alternatives that have more features and are more stable than InWorldz.

  4. virtualhighways@gmail.com'

    Virtual Highway offers every protection possible within the limits of the internet for content creators. We have based this grid on Content Protection and it is very important to us. Is it guaranteed? No, it isn’t possible to guarantee no copybotter or thief can steal content. But, we will do everything we can to protect your content. Any and all are welcome to come and talk to us about our content creator incentives.

    1. fonecokid@gmail.com'

      There is only one copybottter now that All have to worry, Linden Lab, period!

      1. Yeah, it certainly looks that way lol.

  5. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

    Just how you linked and quoted me in my article, it really leads me to believe with these latest changes to their terms of service, it does make it easier for them to just transfer hands of SecondLife if the ownerhip and permissions of what the content is in SecondLife, they can do more safe ownership transfer or sell. Again this is just one of my biggest thoughts, and honestly, I believe SecondLife could be better off in someone elses hands at this point. They are really moving away from the virtual world direction, and more to the gaming direction.

    Granted I can undestand this, but if you really look at their user base, it is not so much gamers as it is builders, creators, and people wanting a second life, unlike their real one. The direction of the company has been making people feel uncomfortable for a long time, and we are really starting to see its strings get push, plucked, and pulled. As many famous people have said before, “people will only take so much, before they turn around and start fighting back.”

    1. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

      I’m sure there is a method to SL’s madness, Its a million dollar corporation and be sure the pro’s and con’s have been discussed time and time again behind the Linden Labs corporate doors. Not really sure myself how things will turn out for them, But I guess they have a good idea. And yes its extremely hard for us (The non knowing) to assume what there plans are in the end. So basically assumptions on the end of days for SL may just be The beginning of something better.
      Sadly I do not see a large exodus of people leaving SL at any time soon, and flocking to opensims for several reasons. I’ll say one the developers of the opensim technology move at a snails pace, Only because its not funded where as Linden labs is. The stats of online and registered users in the grids online now is a indication of who and what works. So again if I was a grid owner I would take note of the leading grid and follow there path.

      1. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

        I do not dissagree with you, but this is bringing out a percentage of content creators. Also the direction of the company has concerned people for a while now. I have many friends, as I have been in SecondLife for several years. I do not think they are going to collapse and fail, I am just saying these changes are going to push out users who want the virtual world aspect to continue. SecondLife is heading down the game route, and not everyone is fine with that. Yes some users will come back, but not everyone.

        All I am saying is users that like the old ways of what SecondLife used to be are leaving to go back to that old way. Granted not everyone is, but some will, and slowly others will follow if this path continues. But SecondLife will continue, because they are bringing in new people with their newer concepts.

      2. reina_benoir@earthlink.net'

        I don’t see what that has to do with anything. LL doesn’t want to deign to tell the people who they’re screwing over with their TOS changes that’s on them but to assume that they have what’s good for all of us in the long run is to ascribe motivations to a corporation that is contrary to how corporations work. If LL can find a way to make money off all the content people uploaded it will and if it can screw us in the process it’ll do that too.

        So far I see no non-nefarious reason for LL to change the TOS In the way they did. The former wording of that section worked just fine to do what needed to be done in SL. There’s nothing they do that necessitates them having the ability to compete with the original creators of anything uploaded onto the servers which is what the new TOS has done.

        And to be totally honest, it matters not what LL has planned. This is a content right grab plain and simple and it doesn’t matter why they did it. The fact is that they are making the grab and anyone who cares one whit about the potential of what LL may do with the rights they’ve given themselves will be wise to refrain from uploading anything further until the TOS issue is corrected.

        SL is not the only grid out there and if they keep acting as though people don’t have choices they will continue to lose customers.

        BTW, I have no idea what you’re talking about when you talk about the slowness of development on opensim. Has SL been in the forefront of innovation of late? Because the ability to use materials in the viewer is not enough of an incentive to put up with the content rights grab and there hasn’t to my knowledge been anything else that LL has done new lately. (They still can’t manage to fix the problems they’ve been having for years.)

      3. setexasrob@gmail.com'

        Ran into Joe Builder once and visited his regions… There’s a reason he doesn’t get much traffic compared to successful region owners. His builds and creations are terrible to look at and not creative in any way. He constantly complains about lack of traffic on his regions. Joe, I have more traffic than ever on my regions. Noticed a huge uptick starting a few months back. And the reason I know this is because I use visitor counters in every region that I am actively building in. Maybe you should visit successful regions like mine and learn why they are successful and your’s are not… Give the people what they want and they will come… And you obviously aren’t… lol!! ; )_~~~

        1. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

          LOL you never been to my regions so get the right Joe if anyone wants to see what I build you have 2 choices Joe Builder in Google Plus (Videos or Pics) or Terrarium in Osgrid it’s a epic build of the best kind. So take your trolling elsewhere you don’t have a clue.

        2. izzieapplewhyte@yahoo.com'

          Being that I have created many things for and in Robert Graf’s regions, I am embarassed by his comments about Joe Builder’s creations and regions, lest anyone think I agree with Robert’s opinions about Joe Builder’s regions. I visited Joe Builder’s regions today. He has the Speedway sims and Terrarium. I was very impressed with what he has there. You can drive some amazing cars on a great race track. Terrarium is beautiful with magnificant mountains.

          1. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            I do agree, I have seen the videos and I am glad someone is testing the vehicles in opensim. I am not really one to do that, I am not a vehicle person, not even in real life I like to walk or take the bus, it is more economical.

          2. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Shhh I’m like you in RL I have my son drive 🙂

          3. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Thank you Izzie 🙂

        3. masaakiou812@yahoo.com'

          I am also familiar with Joe Builder”s work. His creations could easily compete with anything being sold in SL for a lot of L$. His creativity and talent are exceptional, and his eye for detail is quite fine. His regions are very well done, stunning I would say.

          1. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Well Thank you Jim 🙂

  6. kfc509@aol.com'

    Secondlife over 10 years old and very advanced growing regardless what the biased articles published here state lolz
    Opensim is still in long term Beta & is not a real alternative

    Let me tell you a fact opensim people as someone who creates fashion & brings in big bucks why would we want to give you thieves an edge everyday many of those we know get reports & screenshots of our stolen stuff in this ‘wonderful perfect opensim’ that has been called our new jerusalem !

    You offer offer lies & one sided views & no matter how you paint over crap it is still that :>:
    Stop be 2 faced bitc*s as you only want what we sell not us & want to destroy secondlife so stop being 2 faced liars & talk with real facts and show your real agenda & the real truth behind your double talk

    Stop acting like everyone in secondlife needs to see the light as we have that’s why we are in secondlife & even in places like Inworldz or Avination that offer support for merchants close to a secondlife level

    We are a tighter community then you paint us to be also many of us have been around for years to know so stop trying to fool residents of secondlife

    Btw we have kept track of opensim so please no ‘know it all’ grid owners needs to reply to this to educate us as we already know

    If this comment sounds rather rude tough cookie as you have no trouble taking a dump on our grid bitc*s

    1. ilan@kitely.com'

      Hi Nobodysfool,

      You ask “why would we want to give you thieves an edge everyday many of those we know get reports & screenshots of our stolen stuff” the answer is that the only effective way you have to fight illegal piracy of your content taking place in open grids is to make sure that people in open grids have a way to legally purchase it from you.

      Without giving people who are willing to pay you money for your goods an option to do so in an official place that they can trust you are leaving the door open for copybotters to sell your content in more shady places with impunity.

      Successful music artists make millions and illegal mp3 copies of their music can be found all over the net. And yet the music industry, which has been known to take very aggressive actions against suspected copyright infringers, chooses to sell DRM-free copies of those same songs in iTunes and other online stores. By doing so they have earned billions selling unprotected copies of their content to people who can easily find illegal copies of that same content elsewhere and, if they want, easily share the content they buy on the net.

      Have you ever considered why the music industry decided to sell its content without protection on a network where billions of illegal copies of that content are copied with impunity? They tried your “no way are we going to sell to you bitc*s” approach by using DRM to protect CDs and files distributed online, they tried shutting down sites that trade in illegal music, they sued tens of thousands of random people (even children) trying to scare people away from illegally copying their content, and yet nothing they do to limit the availability of their content on the net stops people from stealing their content. So, I ask you again, why have they chosen to embrace DRM-free content sales via iTunes and other official online music stores?

      The reason is that by selling in official stores in a network where their content can be easily stolen they are giving people who would gladly pay them if they could a way to do so. As it turns out, there are many people who still buy online music even though getting it for free is just a Google search away. The music industry has made billions selling unprotected music via iTunes, money they would not have earned had they continued to avoid selling their content to what many RIAA executives probably still consider to be a dishonest customer base.

      You can continue with your strategy of avoiding open grids, which results in only copybotters making money from your content in those places, or you can adopt marketplaces such as Kitely Market and start earning money from the people in those grids. In either case, illegal copies of your content will still be made in both closed grids and open ones but by adopting the only proven way of earning money from potential copyright infringers you can significantly increase your sales.

      The choice is yours but I’d personaly recommend you learn from what the music industry does. They have tried the approach you’re using now and, after years of not selling online to try to minimize illegal copying on the Internet, they’ve changed their strategy to focusing on selling to as many people as possible using official DRM-free stores. The option they chose helps them earn more money than not selling to people who want to buy their content, I recommend you adopt a similar strategy and start selling to open grids as well.

      1. setexasrob@gmail.com'

        If opensim is going nowhere and there are no people and no content IP protection (LL/SL has no real, effective, content IP protection either) and and and…. Then the SL only advocates wouldn’t be so worried… Seems to me more choices and freedom to have both free and paid content and land is the way to go. Not restricting everyone to LL/SL only. A real, successful content creator would look on more markets to sell their products in as a positive business opportunity that will fatten their own bottom line. Lots of potential customers in opensim that would love to be able to buy their “stuff”. The opponents of opensim seem to be interested in fattening LL/SL’s bottom line… Maybe they have some kind of hidden agenda…. LL/SL plants? lol!!! ; )_~~~

      2. maria@tromblyinternational.com'

        I’d like to add to Ilan’s point here.

        Consider the movie industry. Each movie costs tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to make. (Compare that with how much time and effort is put into 3D builds that go for the same $10-15.)

        And people are pirating movies like crazy. According to the latest Sandvine report, BitTorrent is responsible for 35% of all uploading in the U.S.

        Shocking, right? No wonder movie studios used to sue teenagers for downloads.

        But when you look at the download traffic, the picture is totally different – a third of all traffic is legal, paid-for Netflix downloads. BitTorrent just has 5%.

        Link: http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/05/14/sandvine-netflix-owns-one-third-of-north-american-traffic-at-peak-has-doubled-its-mobile-share-in-12-months/

        So the pirates are still pirating, still putting their stuff out there, But people aren’t going for their stuff as much as they used to. And why should they? Hunting around for a download, which might have viruses in it, or could get you into legal trouble… when you can just open Netflix and watch a crystal-clear copy of the movie at a low, reasonable price.

        Keep in mind that where pirates are concerned, all they have to do is record the movie off their monitor, and then do whatever they want with it.

        Movie companies, with billions of dollars at stake, can’t figure out how to protect their content from being copied. .

        Or consider Grand Theft Auto 5, which took in over $1 billion in sales during the first three days of release. (No movie has ever done that.) And the sales came in even though the XBox version was pirated four days before release.

        Link: http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/09/13/xbox-360-gta-v-leaked-torrent-sites-illegal-download

        I am definitely NOT saying that piracy is okay, and encourage content creators to file DMCA reports when they see it.

        But I’m saying is that there’s no way to win this battle. The only thing you can do is to make piracy irrelevant, by offering quality, convenience, and service, at a reasonable price, through as many channels as you can.

      3. kfc509@aol.com'

        You made my point as I asked that no ‘know it all grid’ owner not to reply but you could not resist putting your ego in the spotlight,
        Bitc*s need a mouth muzzle restraint

        Your trying to offer a competing product based on vanilla opensim software with plug in modules for on demand regions lolz
        This same software secondlife donated but got to take a dump on secondlife to look good right its perfect target to attack as an ‘enemy’ to try to rally everyone around

        At least put your money where your mouth is like Inworldz
        and create your own code that really rivals secondlife even Avination is not far behind
        these small grids are the ones who offer a real alternative
        competition can be good even for secondlife if its real competition

        Btw stop trying to dance around the fact opensim is in long term beta & will not be at secondlife level for years regardless what you hype

        Btw as an African American what is kitely doing to help minoritys ?

        1. ilan@kitely.com'

          Hi Nobodysfool,

          Did you notice how you avoided addressing any of the facts presented to you by Maria and myself and instead tried to change the subject by attacking the people who presented you those facts? Is it because you don’t really have any good arguments to counter our claim that content creators will do better selling to open grids than continuing with their current strategy of avoiding them?

          Regarding your baseless claims about Kitely’s technology. Other than the third-party viewers people use to access OpenSim there isn’t a single line of code in our solution that was written by Linden Lab. Kitely developed a cloud-based automatic-scaling and provisioning system, multi-currency automated billing systems, and a lot of other systems that enable us to host more than 4600 user regions while charging a fraction of the price that other grids charge,

          We’ve also developed a web-based application that provides people with management capabilities that they can’t get in Second Life and other OpenSim-based grids. Finally we developed Kitely Market, which provides a user experience that is far superior to that offered by Second Life Marketplace. All these systems include no OpenSim code and no code derived from Second Life.

          On top of those systems Kitely runs an augmented version of standard OpenSim that includes our own Advanced Megaregions module and proprietary cloud-based inventory and asset systems (those interface with OpenSim using modules but the majority of the code has nothing to do with OpenSim). The fact that the rest of the code we run is standard OpenSim is because Kitely has contributed all the other improvements and bug fixes it has made to OpenSim so that all grids can enjoy them (some of them for bugs that have plagued OpenSim for years). You can see those patches mentioned in various OpenSim release notes.

          To learn more about our technology see: http://www.kitely.com/faq?id=what-virtual-world-architecture-does-kitely-use

          I suggest you stick to addressing the questions you tried to avoid and refrain from making statements that make you sound uninformed. People will take any valid arguments you make a lot more seriously that way.

          1. kfc509@aol.com'

            Look how can you be so smart & arrogant at the same time? I must say this impressive

            Let me fill you in with some street smarts first your arguing with a well known popular brand from secondlife who has many other creaters following her now see I just blog this
            edited to be one sided like you & these articles here & set back opensim another year in the minds of those who can create.

            Sure you will get creators from secondlife but mostly those who use inworld tools & simple programs who can sculpt
            but very few who create mesh for profit you will get mostly prim dress designers & such if you do get modern designers don’t be a control freak and run them off

            This your forum? its not mine! but its not yours unless there is something not mentioned public?

            You want to be in control how about controlling that ego & take some business class on how to deal with customers just remember your only a god in that grid anywhere else your just the next person on an equal level

            Grids like InWorldz, Avination, 3rd Rock, Virtual Highway, Island Oasis will get our support & likely I will sponser a Secondlife Fantasy Faire in these grids because anyone can read this whole forum & see something is not right with you

            You need a mouth muzzle restraint take this to heart

          2. ilan@kitely.com'

            Hi Nobodysfool,

            Most intelligent people have an adverse reaction to people who instead of addressing the points made during a debate switch to using foul language and attacking the other party. If you want to score points with your readers I, again, suggest you focus on finding arguments against the other party’s statements.

            You make assumptions about what type of SL content creator will list items in Kitely Market. Assumptions that you can see are wrong by simply viewing some of the professional items already listed in Kitely Market (and this is just one month after it has been opened to the public).

            My LinkedIn profile is located here: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ilantochner

            And that of Kitely is located here: http://www.linkedin.com/company/kitely/products?trk=top_nav_products

            If you read my profile and the customer reviews that people have written about Kitely you’ll see that your statements about my lack of business education and customer relationship skills are also without merit.

            Please focus on the topic of this thread. If you are as big a content creator as you claim to be then you are only hurting your own sales by avoiding selling to open OpenSim grids. Your existing strategy of trying to combat pirating of your content in OpenSim isn’t working. Isn’t it better to try a new strategy that has proven to work in similar cases? What goal exactly are you serving by ignoring the message and focusing on the messenger?

          3. kfc509@aol.com'

            Most intelligent people have an adverse reaction to people who instead of addressing the points made during a debate switch to using foul language and attacking the other party. If you want to score points with your readers I, again, suggest you focus on finding arguments against the other party’s statements.
            ‘Practice what you preach’ your so smart your dumb!

          4. ilan@kitely.com'

            Hi Nobodysfool,

            Please do a simple search on this page and quote one curse word that I’ve used. Find anything?

            Please read the comments I’ve written and quote one phrase where I’ve attacked you personally instead of addressing the arguments which you’ve made or the way in which you tried to present them. Find anything?

          5. enerhax@yahoo.com'

            dang Nobodysfool! i’m sorry you are so bitter!

            the size of the person is measured by the size of their problems

            thank goodness i am a tiny avatar =)

          6. enerhax@yahoo.com'

            some people still think that OpenSim is an open source version of SL and some people are just obstinate

            btw, nice job on Oren’s latest patches submitted to OpenSim! thanks Kitely! =)

        2. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

          To the last question you just posed, I say as a homosexual who get less rights than an African American, what is Second Life doing for me?

          1. kfc509@aol.com'

            Secondlife has a huge GLBT community do not fool me as I am a lesbian & know your another grid owner /Server space business as well but before you help damage your reputation further I suggest you reread my first comments & think hard
            how well your looking for content creators for your zetaworlds grid & how fast you just lost some with alot of public sway & I create mesh for over 100 full perm content sellers so rub that little noggin & think hard as secondlife residents will be fighting back because we built secondlife

          2. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            aww… secondlife has a GLBT community, really? I been there, and it is just a bunch of rude people. Or sex crazed men, and well honestly that is the way it most the time in most places. Your a lesbian too *slow rhetorical claps* I sound so mean, and yes feel free to “damage” my reputation all you want I don’t care one bit, because I have very happy clients, and many supporters no matter what you say or do. I was simply pointing out that tossing in the race card is stupid, because I can toss the sexuality card which is just as stupid.

            Have fun trolling, because I really don’t care :p

          3. kfc509@aol.com'

            Tossing out the race card? I had no idea concerns for peoples rights is a card play but this is good I share this and post at the GLBT center.
            You sound like another white male who is intimidated by a strong black woman

          4. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            Aww, thank you, you should really email me because this is getting really off track of this wonderful article. If you want to continue slinging mud at me, my email is me@timothyfrancisrogers.me I would be happy to speak with you.

          5. kfc509@aol.com'

            You have been very helpful as the apple does not fall far from the tree , No sorry I have to get back to secondlife & use my race card as you say to force people to do business with me.
            Sorry a successful black woman scares you but maybe getting around more people in real life can change your mindset as you grow older & mature
            Remember Dr King was speaking for everyone
            Back to the place that funds my childrens collage fund

          6. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            Okay, the other comments I made here were out of spite and playfulness. But now that you brought Dr. King in I am sorry that I am not alright with. You put Dr. Kings great work to shame, your banter and comments here show nothing but hatred and shame. How you keep saying your a black woman and so forth, that was not Dr King’s vision at all or maybe you need to go back to school. I love Dr King and follow his beliefs very closely.

            You pulled the card first, saying how “what does kitely have for an aferican american” No. That is not what he fought for, why I said I think the sexuality card is bad too, because I don’t care people know if I am gay or not. One of his biggest speeches “I dream of a day when black and white call eachother by names not color of skin” I don’t “hang” with GLBT groups because that is not who I am. I only fight for my legal right in Real Life, I have attened many REAL WORLD events like Dr King and stood PEACEFULLY not with FOUL words like you have spoken. I have not cursed once at you in any of my replies, yet your language is very colorful, King hated the use of such foul mothed language or did you not know your own herritage as well as you thought.

            Perhaps before you say I need to mature, you need to mature. I was letting all this go till you brought up a man who fought for equal right of not just black men and woman, but ALL men and woman. I am ASHAMED of you, and I know King would be too.

          7. mr_jackson2@aol.com'

            You have no idea as your just a child if our under 25 in my family, we always talked with respect to our elders !.

            You did not know Dr king but I went to his march’s and watched with horror as a young mans was face was getting eating off by a police dog as the state police clubbed over and over til I could not see as my head swelled up like a balloon
            Always until the late 1980’s did my family face extreme racism and that some history to know.
            So here is a grown black woman with a good head on her shoulders and a possible customer with views this site she does not like getting clubbed on her head because she is proud to say who and what she is.?
            You play this mockery of knowing & understanding well call this a race card throw as well I will submit this site & your site to the NAACP & The southern poverty law center as a possible raciest site so here is just another negro throwing the race card as you expect but this one will have results I ensure you of this young man.

          8. kfc509@aol.com'

            Thank you!!! Thank you!! Mr Jackson for caring to speak up
            looks like everyone in the church follows my online success
            this is heartwarming as god did not give us a pastor but an angel

            Yes raciest business owners are still alive in America as we can see from the owners of Zetamex & Kitely as when I asked this
            “Btw as an African American what is kitely doing to help minority’s ?”
            Was asking as to compare what they do to help outside there business as linden lab donates tens of millions of dollars & man power to help Charities every year including a library for my old school & helped with a special viewer for those who paraplegics even helps donations to food banks & almost every major disaster so I was asking kitely about corporate responsibility as its very important in America

            The reply was I was tossing around the race card &
            I was a troll demanding special rights because I am black when the last part of it says “what is kitely doing to help minority’s ?”

            Does not say what is kitely doing for me I am black give me give me give me ‘minoritys’ can be native American, the people of color blacks, Mexicans , Asian even due to religion such as being Catholic, Hindu ,Hebrew,
            Thanks Mr Jackson I came here to defend an honest company from lies & misinformation but as my last post
            I leave having to defend against the same thing we always have had to deal with the crime of being born black

          9. ilan@kitely.com'

            Hi Nobodysfool,

            Linden Lab doesn’t “donates tens of millions of dollars” each year to charity. Please link to a press release or a charity site thanking Linden Lab for their real money donation. What you can find are notes thanking SL residents for donating money in various events which Linden Lab coordinated. Even then the highest amount you are likely to find is in the hundreds of thousands of US dollars (again donated by SL residents not LL the company).

            Linden Lab donates server time as part of LEA. You’ll note that Kitely did the same when an African American (not that it matters) artist presented her work using Kitely in the Frost Art Museum in 2011: http://www.kitely.com/virtual-world/Xhyra-Graf/Xhyras-Place

            Kitely virtual worlds are also used by various teachers in budget limited schools that can’t afford land in SL but can do so in the much more affordable Kitely. For LL to give them the same type of deal they would have had to give charities a 90% discount (the best they ever did to my knowledge was 50%).

            So, as you insist on discussing this tangent, you may wish to consider that Kitely gives minorities a much more affordable option to sim ownership than LL does. And, since we have customers in more than 70 countries, I can assure you some of them are Native American, African American (and Africans in Africa), Mexicans, Asian and of all the major religions (you can even find some virtual temples, shrines and churches in Kitely).

          10. enerhax@yahoo.com'

            “my online success” – i’m pretty naive, are you being sarcastic or do you actually have an online presence?

            where can i learn more about what you are about rather than just from a handful of comments )a sincere question, despite my snarkiness above)

          11. baby-boy24@aol.com'

            Come on Ener let a dead horse laydown,
            you know we sould be grateful she said what she is,
            no one wants a ghetto in the grid they own, LOL,
            Who has all this money to pay to police a bunch of gta
            game thugs,LOL,as they say in the ghetto say you feel me?,LOL.

          12. ou812horse@yahoo.com'

            Are you really a man in the real world (?)or just a masculine female(?) this is not to offend you it’s just your photo is very
            confusing.
            Thx Cindy

          13. mr_jackson2@aol.com'

            Just one more thing young man if anyone in this website should be Ashamed it is you !.
            We will pray for you at the same time reporting your business in Virginia that’s the fairness king gave as a teacher now a lesson for you to learn as well so let this old negro help you become enlightened to what kings intentions were in his writings no need to thank me I do insist.

        3. someone@somewhere.com'

          cant we all just get along? Like seriously! And as for Nobodysfool, go troll somewhere else. This is a professional, business website for mature adults, not for immature kids to go trolling on.

    2. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

      While I agree that opensim is not near Second Life standards yet, I from a creators stand point understand and respect that you choose to keep your conten behind a walled garden type of grid. But one of the things that people always seem to ignore, is if I really wanted too I could come into your store in Second Life and just copy all your items and reupload them as my creations.

      Yes you could put in a DMCA with LL, and yes they would honor it, but after damage had already been done. I am friends with several content creators in Second Life, and they have filed DMCA on their content and well sadly by the time it was taken care of it was too late. People had all shared and redistributed all the fake copies to kingdom come. YES this was SECONDLIFE not in OPENSIM. Then you can argue, “well they will IP ban you” use a proxy or vpn, the you say “they can mac ban you” not hard with programs today to spoof that too. I am not by no means advocating piracy, I am merely explaining how easy it is to do and get away with.

      That aside, look at the response time of grids in OpenSim when a DMCA is request is sent in. I can almost guarantee that 90% of the grids will respond within less than a week, and most cases 24 hours. Regardless of what you think Kitely, InWorldz, Avination, and other grids are all legal endities, and there for held responsible for the content they host under the law. (depending on country, as some countries do not have to honor DMCA under certain circumstances, but that gets more in depth). But because we want merchants to come, they will respond to these requests much faster than Linden Labs.

      I personally don’t go to Second Life much anymore, or many grids that are closed for that matter. I feel virtual worlds should be just like when I go to a real store, if I buy something, I should OWN it. Yes legal reprocussions come, if I sell it, redistribute it, etc. But I paid for it, why can’t I have my own backup of it? It is like buying a DVD or an MP4 from iTunes (which I have done), and I am pissed off that I cannot watch that MP4 on my android, my windows computer, my television, or even burn it to a DVD. So i went and bought the DVD, why? Because then I can make a backup copy (because I end up loosing and cd’s get scratched so easy) and can watch it on any device I want. DRM’s are painful, and horrible, and I hate them. But I respect them, because it makes the content creator feel better, so I now just avoid shopping from any place that does DRM’s or forbids me from letting me keep my own backup of my inventory for person recovery. (because I know I have, and others have, where second life’s blessed amazing inventory servers just went *poof* and items that I made or bought gone forever)

      1. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

        I only have to add one thing to your comment, Its that when LL is contacted they do great deal to stop the distribution of the stolen content. One thing is they go into everyone’s inventory delete the items and replace them with a IP Compliance prim of nothing, send you a nasty email, and if continues your IP address may be banned. So you might of wanted to add that in your above statement. Not sure really why people compare a virtual items to Music I don’t see the relation. Also again for the 100th time SL was not created to be a free, wild, lawless world. This is why Opensims will never be near. Remember if it wasn’t for SL we all would not be here today 🙂

        1. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

          Again Joe, I did mention that they do comply and they do their best to stop it, but often times it is too late. Some of my favorite furry avatar creators left SecondLife because that happened to them, the damage had already been done.

          I did not compare it to music, I compared it too a movie (which is different). I know it is not a lawless place, opensim is not meant to be lawless either so I don’t like that accusation you made implying it is. The argument is made simply because it is digital content, no matter how you look at it. This comment, this post, your hair in SL, your avatar in opensim, your music you listen too, when broken down it is all digital content. No matter how you turn it just like real life, people steal, and it is not right.

          1. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Ok please for all of us do tell how open sims is governed? how are you regions policed? do you know any grid owners who take any action to copied items? Careful with your answer as I know the regions/grids with mass majority of there content come from SL. Where as the SL creator has no clue there items are in Opensims.

          2. arielle.popstar@gmail.com'

            Joe, Joe, Joe….still kicking at the goads 🙂 Why don’t you and Talla show me all this copybotted content. Remember that until 2010 it was ok to bring over content from S/L. Remember that quite a few S/L creators have come over from S/L and distributed their older content. Remember that there are S/L creators who have willingly allowed their purchased content to be brought over. Remember that S/L’s ToS has no bearing in Opensim and it is only regular copyright laws that are in effect. Those laws allow more leeway then S/L’s ToS.

            Lastly remember that if you are more comfortable with a police(d) state, there are other virtual worlds where that is much more rigoursly controlled then Opensim or S/L. You won’t be able to create your own 200 region mega’s (or at least afford them) but at least your content will be safer.

            No, you can’t have your cake and eat it too 🙂

          3. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            No clue what you said or what your trying to spin. And know I’m not pointing any fingers at no one. Why would I want to get your friends in trouble? Leave it alone Arielle don’t disturb a hornet nest you may get bit. Common knowledge as you once said There is a serious amount of stolen items in Opensims.

          4. arielle.popstar@gmail.com'

            Resorting to veiled threats against my friends and I, as well as misquoting me is is how you choose to refute my points?
            I been kicking hornets nests filled with BS for a long time Joe and Ilan, Reina, Hack and others have refuted your accusations about Opensim over and over also and yet you keep coming back with the same arguments. That sort of dogmatism is almost always a cover for something.

          5. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            I told you not to go there, being your Miss Tuffy you did anyways. As far as the people you mentioned all of them have 1 thing in common. And we all know what that is. Your feeble attempt to battle wits is amusing at most. If one comes back with the same facts and you be a non knowing call them arguments then I don’t know what to say to help you. Maybe Its best you go back to Grid hopping Looking for fresh gossip see if that curbs your appetite. There is a old saying goes like this “The truth Hurts” on that note, I have better things to do and explain how it just is. BTW you mention refuted that’s another word for smoke blowing myself and others don’t buy it.

          6. reina_benoir@earthlink.net'

            Not pointing fingers? You’ve done nothing but made piss poorly veiled innuendo (and that’s being generous) about open sims being havens for thievery while pretending that it doesn’t happen in SL.

            And in case you are as bad at reading for comprehension as you pretend to be I believe Arielle is pointing out that items that are found in open sims that can also be be found in SL because they were brought there legally. This would include pre-2010 full perm items, items people who made things in SL uploaded themselves to open sims and items bought in SL but legally uploaded to open sims because the licensing allowed it. But you seem to prefer to pretend that’s not at all the case. Disingenuous on your part but I can’t force you to make your arguments honestly.

          7. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            Joe, your putting opensim as a single grid, that is not so. OpenSim is a software, and as the difference. SecondLife is a grid, then SecondLife also used to offer a “platform” to enterprise clients, and for other people called DSGrid (Decentralized Grid) that existed. You seem to be grouping like many do, that opensim as a whole is not policed. When it is grids you should be accusing for not policing their content. Kitely is a good example as they are an OpenSim GRID not just OpenSim. People hear OpenSim and most just think OSGrid, hell many people call OpenSim OSgrid because that is all they know.

            There is a big difference between opensim and grids is that opensim is a platform, so much like if you had the secondlife DSG or entireprise you can’t control the content unless your the admin. It is up to grids, you can’t blame the platform for grids not following basic rules.

          8. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            OK I see your 1 sided in this, So ill school you being you don’t know. In General it goes this way SL (Second Life) Then there is Opensims (Grids) That’s how many if not all see it. And not 1 Opensim Grid has any security in place, Or is governed. That’s one reason at any given time with all the 80 plus or whatever Grids there are 1000 people average online. Spin it all you like, Joe been around virtual worlds for many mango seasons I know what’s going on.

          9. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            I am not one sided on this, I am just saying you can’t blame a platform for what people do with it. It is like saying people who use Torrents are all illegal, when there are thousands of legal uses for it. I don’t know why everyone seems the need to “school” me, I am quite educated, and have already graduated college. I am licensed several times over by both Microsoft, CIW, and Adobe.

            Do not underestatimate someone who is young, look at Microsoft, look at Apple, look at Tumbler, look at YouTube, hell even Google.

            All I am saying is your right, people view opensim as all bad because of certain grids, but you can’t blame a platform for what people do with it. I use Bittorrent Sync, as it is much faster and easier to sync my files securely without having to use a server in the middle, Bittorrent is the only protocol that supports direct P2P, but everyone says “P2P is illegal” it is not P2P is 100% legal, it is what some people do with it that is not.

          10. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            As far as your comment about not one single opensim grid is governed, I think you just offended InWorldz, Avination, Kitely, Island Oasis, and several others. I know they are governed, I have friends who have filed complaints, and their requests were followed through promptly.

            Theft is something grids do not take lightly @IlanTochner:disqus of Kitely is not even in the USA, but knowing that the cloud services they use are USA based, he follows DMCA procedure, something he could avoid if he wanted to, but these grids are serious about protecting content. I would double check your facts.

          11. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Ok, so thank you for letting us know that maybe Kitely goes into there Residents inventory’s and remove items that are not legit, gotcha. Because my friend that’s exactly what SL does to remove stolen content. And do not post in this thread they do not, Because I’ll call you a Liar. So with that said check your Facts, I was SL creator and a good one to boot. Also I already been asked in a few grids to seek out stolen content so the Grid owner can have it removed from the copybotter.
            Funny thing I spoke to a few people and said wow! That’s from SL. There response was, Well I bought it in SL its mine.
            Now with this mind set, Is anything safe? Lets all try to put something in place to stop this, Rather than have ways to distribute these things, That would be a valued asset rather than Marketplaces.

          12. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            First off deleting something from someone’s inventory does absolutely no good, I suggest removing the actual asset and replacing it with the same way SL does it a static IP safe prim.

            Also what you just described, you’re assisting in a crime. If a grid is asking you to find copybotted material, that is a crime! The only legal person that can file a content removal even in SL or any other website, game, etc. is THE IP HOLDER THEMSELVES. Otherwise, it is ILLEGAL, and you can FINED up to 100,000USD for a wrongly submitting a DMCA complaint.

            Under UNITED NATIONS LAW, it is illegal to go through someone elses stuff they upload on your servers, IT IS AGAINST THE UN’S PRIVACY LAW. The same goes for Second Life, I have submitted a couple complaints to them over stuff I have found uploaded in violation of my Terms of Service, and LL has not yet replied which greatly upsets me.

            I have worked for a few grids, and the ones I have when they received a request, I verified the legal proceedings and removed the content directly from the asset server again blocking it from reupload with the SRAS system’s hashing black listing the asset from use.

            I do however find it funny you seem to think copybotting doesn’t happen in SL or that is always caught and delt with. Because I walk around SL daily, and so much stuff I see has been copybotted. I really think your turning a blind eye to that. I am a regular secondlifer myself, how I met my ex that I lived with and spent 3 years of my life with. I am not stranger to that grid, and I love it and go clubbing at Gay Yiffy Club every Friday, so don’t tell me i am not a SecondLifer and I don’t know what I am talking about, because I very well do.

            Linden Labs is held to the same Privacy Law, they can’t just go willy nilly into everyones inventory and just pluck things out without a proper DMCA request. Which must then be verified, which then must resolved, and followed with response. Technically, Linden Labs skips a step with their Terms of Service by avoiding the need to transfer the request to the original person who stole the content, because legally under the USA DMCA Safe Harbor Act, you must first contact the person who is accused, the person must reply yes or no, if the user replies no, then it goes to court, then the court judgement gets passed to the service provider aka Second Life.

            Honestly, I wonder how you claim that I am unschooled when you seem to be avoiding these simple yet very important things. And if you are helping snoop out content, I suggest you tread carefully as that is an even bigger fine, and can land you fines not only by the user who got snooped, but the country of that user especially in the netherlands and germany, doesn’t matter if your a US citizen or not, they can still sue you.

          13. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            LOL funny line of bull you just posted, Many European countries don’t apply to USA DMCA laws and a grid owner is responsible for policing there grid to avoid such law suits. Well than from what your saying is SL breaks the law daily LOL again I don’t think so, many in the LL employ probably forgot more than you know. So again your blowing smoke on this. If I have friends in SL and see there creations in opensims there was a time I told them with photos. But now its out of hand, way too many do it. If I can see a clearly marked copyright mark on a avatar and that creator has never been in opensims that’s ok? And the grid owner cant be informed haha to funny. Anyways its real foggy what laws do apply in virtual worlds most cases fall through the cracks. But if I had a Grid investment I would want to cover my behind in every way. And if you hosted my grid and I told you to remove items from a residents inventory and you didn’t, well I don’t need you I need a hosting service to look after me and my interests enuf said.

          14. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            I can see that right now you are very full of yourself and you were saying I am the one who is one sided, I think you need a mirror.

            I can go into SL right now and find over a hundred things copybotted in less than 5 minutes. SL is no safe haven like you say it is, I do feel sorry for you and I do hope you don’t get in trouble with the law.

            Like I explained earlier, LL can avoid the full DMCA Safe Harbor Act, thanks to its twisted Terms of Service granting them access things that violate a user’s privacy, but under certain US laws it makes it legal so long as they tell you they are violating your privacy and you hit the “I Accept” button. Or have you forgot what this whole article was even about, such a pitty, I need not waste my time arguing anymore with someone who seems to stuck in their ways no matter how much proof you show them. It is a shame so many people in this world are like you.

          15. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Ok Hack13/Timothy Rogers/Zetamex Whatever you go by, You claim to be in business as a hosting company, Your extremely unprofessional in every aspect of the word.
            You boldly speak of your personal sexual preferences, No one cares your into a beastiality, furry, yiff virtual fantasy fetish. Its not good for your professional look or your love for gossip and placing yourself in the middle of Drama Gossip.
            Be a professional and focus on yourself and your company, your starting to put a bad taste in peoples mouths. Take a step back and look at all these comments and see the vote ups on many reply’s here. The people have spoken.

          16. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

            Not going to respond directly to this, because your argument is invalid. Hover over the up votes, vs the votes that are legit over mine. The ones on mine actually show people, the votes over the ones against mine are “guest votes”

            I shall leave you to your devices as I stated before. I don’t wear masks to hide behind, I am who I am. I got here how I got here, just how you got here to just cause arguments.

          17. karelboard@aol.com'

            Hey dude, Timothy is well regarded, well liked and freely gives a lot to the community and his clients, he works long hard hours building up his small business at his young age, you are way off base.
            PS- there’s only one “a” in “bestiality” look it up in the dictionary and making personal attacks on other users here by your remarks is against TOS.

          18. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Not sure why I’m replying to you, But for your information his biggest account came from me talking to the grid owner into using Zeta. This is a whole other topic here, And not about his ability, don’t start trouble zoo boy. And another thing get some schooling Beast is spelled like I just spelled it, You need to get off your parents computer. Have a nice day 🙂

          19. arielle.popstar@gmail.com'

            “Also I already been asked in a few grids to seek out stolen content so the Grid owner can have it removed from the copybotter.”

            Ok, now we know the why.

            What do you suggest as a way to stop it?
            I would say the best way to stop it is to have those creators sell their items through Opensim grids and Hypergrid standalones.
            By making it easier and more convenient to buy it then “steal” it, most will buy it. (sorry to sound like a broken record)

          20. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

            Stop it you say? Almost impossible but lets think about this a moment, Hmm ok make a marketplace and make sure everyone gets a piece of the pie, Do you know how silly that sounds? Mr. Innovator needs to work on a solution to the problem not a distribution station. When that day comes watch the exodus flock in.

  8. cuteulala@gmail.com'

    Hello Everyone! Cuteulala Artis here passing out Chill Pills. Take it with a nice big glass of milk and be worry free. No one is gonna tie you down to there services. We are very lucky to have devs like we do to provide a software that should be making TONS of money for the very low price of free. No one has to like your things but you. And no one should offend you. The beauty of OSGrid is that you have no limits and freedom without payment to build as u want. Dont understand why we sit in forums like this and argue about pointless things. Open your eyes and ask your self what am i going to solve blogging attacks to one anothers opinions that we dont have control over? Unfortunatly you cant just punch your monitor hoping it will punch the avatar next to thoes pixles(tho that would be hilarious o.o). Just build and have fun we got one life to live dont waste it in pointless arguments lol Hating one another will only make reaching our goals even harder and longer.. Besides everything we make and share and even dont share cant come with us once were gone… Enjoy the once in infinity life we will ever get. This is why i give things away so if im gone one day someone els will have my things i made and it continues to make a impact in the community i not worried about 99% of my things being copybotted. I only defend my roller coasters because they help me purchase groceries with the little money i get in real life for food the coasters certainly fill that gap everything els steal it… if it makes you happy and you really want it go for it or just ask me o.o. Its about sharing and giving back to what was gave to you free. peace

    1. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me'

      Oh I competely agree, I feel the open metaverse is much better off without people who like to stir up and cause hate. Granted all the grid owners and what not might not always get along, but we all at least share a common goal.

    2. arielle.popstar@gmail.com'

      Aww Cuty, you took the wind out of my sails as i was making up a response to the Fool. You are absolutely right. There are better things to do then respond to trolling anonymous S/L creators 🙂

  9. reina_benoir@earthlink.net'

    I have no idea if anyone will see this as the comments seem to have gone off on a rather odd tangent, but while people were tossing innuendo about opensim grids, and touting SL businesses which may or may not exist (as I’ve no name to look up) and bragging about businesses they gave up (again with no name so there’s nothing to look up) the main point of this story seems to have been forgotten.

    The same people who tout SL as a haven for people to make a living online seem to have completely ignored the fact that LL has changed the TOS to allow themselves the right forever to basically do whatever they want with the items you upload including selling it in competition with you the original person to make said item up.

    I’ve seen no evidence that LL is even remotely interested in rectifying this situation. So while some people are complaining about grids they can’t be arsed to deign to stick a pixel toe in (all whilst looking down their nose at those of us who do) LL just stole every item inworld ever uploaded by every resident be they professional content creator or a casual builder.

    So I guess my question is while some are turning their noses up at opensim grids because of the theft (that they’ve not bothered to prove is as rampant as they claim) What are you doing about the rights grab LL just pulled off?

    Do you give a damn about this type of theft or is it okay because a corporation used a click through document to pull it off? THAT I thought was the point of the article and the important thing here.

    1. happyflydance@aol.com'

      Every chance to put secondlife down why not let opensim mind its own business and pay for its own marketing and just go your own way huh?
      If secondlife is so bad then look the other way and do your own thing
      tearing secondlife down to build yourselves up just show the real opensim
      Whatever linden lab does is the business of them and secondlife if secondlife is such an evil place why bring it up why not just keep building your grids and mind your own business this whole karl marx utopia is not going to work wanting to be the next secondlife.is it huh

      1. reina_benoir@earthlink.net'

        First of all you don’t know me. Just because I speak up for OpenSim grids doesn’t mean I don’t have a presence in Second Life. But I am not a sycophant so I have no inclination to crawl up LL’s ass either. If I see something I don’t like I damn well will say so. And I’m saying, this rights grab is not right. It’s despicable and unnecessary and I will NOT be uploading a damn thing to SL while this clause in the TOS is still in effect.

        I am not about to pretend that the customer support is non existent, they don’t listen to the residents, and they insist on adding new features to the viewer without fixing what’s wrong been wrong with things for years. Furthermore, I don’t have to sit back and say nothing while people who seem to have an agenda involving putting down OpenSim grids and the people who play on them down while pretending that Second Life has no issues whatsoever. Implying that everyone in OpenSim grids are thieves doesn’t make those who are inclined to craw up LL’s ass look less small.

        Given that I do have a presence in Second Life and have things I’ve uploaded into Second life, this bullshit IS my business. And even if I didn’t this is a public forum anyone can comment so I don’t need permission from some wankerous twat who can’t manage capitalization and is apparently so far up LL’s ass that they couldn’t find their own with both hands.

        Contrary to the foolishness you’re spewing, I’m not looking for the next Second Life. I would prefer to do business if I were inclined to do business in virtual worlds on a grid that doesn’t use the TOS as a tool to make a blanket rights grab to the stuff I upload to it. The fact that LL had made this rights grab makes them the biggest thief in any virtual world and the apologists have yet to counter that fact.

        1. butterflysilly44@aol.com'

          Look no one is forcing anyone to stay in secondlife maybe people just like it better aye
          Everytime linden lab has a policy change or makes changes
          you people in opensim start screaming ‘hey over here’ waving your arms up ‘hey we got ruth avatars all dollied up for you come on over all content sould be free over here,

          The policy change was a blanket change to cover all the companys linden lab owns pure and simple just another
          excuse it kick secondlife in the teeth
          Like starving dogs looking for a bite to eat,
          Contrary to the foolishness you’re spewing after years of hearing these opensim lies and attacks on secondlife
          maybe you all in opensim sould expect a backlash for the foolishness of lies you tell

          Offer something better opensim cannot this is a fact aye
          this is the next best thing these places right here
          Closed commercial grids like InWorldz, Avination, 3rd Rock, Virtual Highway, Island Oasis, because they are doing there thing and making stuff happen also creating a future while you hypergrid turds sit around bashing old lindens aye

          You said

          “while people who seem to have an agenda involving putting down OpenSim grids”
          Any different then everyday nutcracking you do against secondlife residents
          Eye for an Eye aye

          1. reina_benoir@earthlink.net'

            Did you actually READ the TOS change? I did. As there’s not a damn thing wrong with my reading comprehension the long list of things that LL is now allowed to do with anything you upload regardless of how you feel about it, without payment, and without attribution gives them as many rights to items as you have. This includes the right to compete with you selling the stuff you uploaded. Now maybe that’s not a problem for you but I’m pretty sure given the number of forum and blog posts about it that it’s a big deal to a lot of people including people who spend more of their time in SL than I do. This includes people who are not at all involved in OpenSim grids. BTW you named several OpenSim grids in your little reply there so you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about and are apparently only here to troll for LL. As I prefer not to feed trolls nor do I have any interest in anyone foolish enough to do PR work for a multi-million dollar corporation for free I don’t think I shall waste any more time on you after this post.

            I’ve read LL’s explanation as to the TOS change. It’s irrelevant. you see LL treats that TOS like a contract and in contracts the words do matter. So I don’t care why they made the change. The fact of the matter is the change has been made. These are their words:

            “Except as otherwise described in any Additional Terms (such as a contest’s official rules) which will govern the submission of your User Content, you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same. You agree that the license includes the right to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or desirable for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future improvements to the Service. The license granted in this Section 2.3 is referred to as the “Service Content License.”

            That is a rights grab and it’s not necessary and just plain wrong. Your bashing of me and anyone who happens to enjoy OpenSim grids doesn’t change that. What’s your rebuttal to LL’s own words? Do you have something that’s actually relevant to the argument or are you going to spew more unimaginative invective because you are incapable of winning the argument.

            As to my “everyday nutcracking” against Second Life Residents that’s just a flat out lie. I don’t post here often enough to do anything every day. My reason for being here is because it’s just one of a number of links I’ve been following about this TOS change since CG textures disallowed use of their textures for use in Second Life. This TOS change has ramifications far beyond just the residents of SL. Perhaps if you didn’t have your head so far LL’s ass you might be able to see it.

          2. concerned@concerned.co'

            Look your right I was an idiot and hadno clue whats going on aye

            So please disregard my stupid talk above

  10. hanheld@yahoo.com'

    Y’all know you’re being trolled, right?
    Dear GOD please tell me you know you’re being played by a troll or three…

    Strictly talking about the comments section, not the article, btw. I can smell the reek of troll all the way over on google plus.

    1. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

      Maybe need to head back over there and wear a mask 🙂 Being this thread is all about “Lets beat up on SL”. I say if these trollers don’t like it move out, No one holds a gun to there heads stop crying all the time.

    2. arielle.popstar@gmail.com'

      Calling some of the posters “trolls” is quite generous of you Hannah. I would have used a somewhat less complimentary name 😉

    3. gordon.twine@gmx.com'

      If you think Joe is a troll, then you know how Second Life users feel, when they read their daily news sites on the web and scroll down to the comments. Joe is only one person here on HB that try to balance the one sided opinions of the Opensim community. But on the well known SL pages there are so many SL-haters comments from the Opensim people, that this is (in my opinion) one of the reasons that Opensim is not really growing. Who wants to join a community that is mentally so negative?

      1. shinystar13a@aol.com'

        Agreed Gordon ,
        I used to live in sl then moved to iwz and it fits me well,
        sl sould not be hit over the head every chance people get
        never seen LL employees bashing osgrid when they are the ones who created it plus still allow osgrid to get updated features that LL
        has paid for then donated to them ( minus deformer)

  11. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

    Again what SL does should not concern the Opensim community, I do not applaud what they do, I just moved away its just that simple. But it seems many who post here have issues with making mountains out of mole hills. Super simple people pack up your toys and bid SL a fond adieu. Lastly I do speak for a lot of people and yes they log in as guests, Maybe they don’t want to be seen but voice in a quite Up Vote which shows many agree and many disagree that’s all normal.

    1. arielle.popstar@gmail.com'

      Or maybe they are all your alts logging in through proxies? Quite a few of the trolls seem to be from Inworldz too I notice.
      What S/L does , does concern Opensim, first and foremost because the majority of us came from S/L to begin with and still spend money there and or create there. We just happen to be expressing our concerns about what is happening there on a site that is predominantly Opensim related but not exclusive.. We are just as entitled to express an opinion about what is going on in S/L atm as any of you who have never experienced Opensim. Get over it.
      Aside from that Joe, your constant trolling has actually subverted the topic at hand into an Opensim copybot discussion with very little negative comments actually directed at S/L but many, many from the trolls about Opensim. You are more and more striking me as a LL/Inworldz shill who has nothing better to do then try to run down anything about Opensim in spite of your benefitting from both the software and Osgrid servers.

      You are admittedly a good builder Joe but tbh you suck at actually bringing up valid points of discussions and are even less adept at countering any.
      Don’t quit your day job.

      1. arielle584@ymail.com'

        Dear Diary
        Any voice or view you don’t like is trolling so it seems ,read everything you wrote and what the reply was you are indeed the >troll< as this man has just different views with facts of his own,

        Arielle wrote.. many from the trolls about Opensim. You are more and more striking me as a LL/Inworldz shill who has nothing better to do then try to run down anything about Opensim

        Likely your not seeing your reflection of you so here are some facts..

        http://facts.randomhistory.com/facts-about-bullying.html

      2. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

        That’s all you got? wow your assumptions are to funny you give me to much credit lol. My valid points are shown in the guests who read this drama Blog that people like you turn into a circus and vote up. Sadly you cant admit most of what you say is seen by the majority as being non valid and holds no merit. Your a typical smoke blower who wants things they can’t have. You and your small gang of henchmen are fighting a losing battle. The more you and others like you speak the deeper a hole you dig. When you do something for Opensims other than Gossip fangurl than you can speak. Now go to your room

  12. shinystar66@aol.com'

    Hello, As a SL resident found this forum from all its spam tags all over the internet
    I would like to say if you don’t SL then do not go to SL so stop putting down our grid and its owners also stop using changes that have been made to attack us!!!!!
    I dont think firestorm sould support opensim and linden lab should make more changes to cut itself off from opensim by not giving anymore viewer code or they sould file a lawsuit against opensim developers even if they are in the wrong they could bankrupt your developers long before it effects them that’s the harsh reality
    After spending a few hours reading here you people make me sick

    1. Hello “kissmygrits”. May I ask why you took the time to come and post on this forum? You just gave out some advice, while completely ignoring it yourself, that is usually called being a hypocrite – saying one thing, then doing another. If you do not use, or like OpenSim software, or the many OpenSim grids, or the OpenSim community as a whole, why are you here posting on an forum that is clearly intended for OpenSim based worlds and users? The clue is in the name “HyperGrid Business”. Secondlife is not on the HyperGrid, and so isn’t considered as a part of the HyperGrid Metaverse.
      Many of the users of OpenSim Grids, still frequent SecondLife, and so Maria is helping to inform the OpenSim community of what is taking place in that grid, and the changes taking place in the LL ToS are important, and something that affects many people, and so is relevant to be discussed on an OpenSim focused website.
      Personally, speaking as an OpenSim user, and a grid owner. I would agree with you kissmygrits, I would love to see an independent, and dedicated OpenSim viewer, with all ties to SL/LL removed. I think for far too long us in OpenSim land have been hanging on the coat tails of LL and their grid, and have been held back by trying to remain compatible with SL.
      OpenSim is SIMILAR to SL, but NOT identical. Some things work the same as SL, somethings work different than SL, somethings work better than SL, and some things don’t work at all. I think people too often forget that, and see OpenSim as an identical product to SL, when it clearly is not.
      I quote this from the OpenSimulator website http://www.opensimulator.org
      “Out of the box, OpenSimulator can be used to simulate virtual environments similar to Second Lifeâ„¢, given that it supports the core of SL’s messaging protocol. As such, these virtual worlds can be accessed with the regular SL viewers. However, OpenSimulator does not aim to become a clone of the Second Life server platform. Rather, the project pursues innovative feature development with an aspiration towards becoming the bare bones, but extensible, server of the 3D Web.” So if you are comparing OpenSim with SL, you really are comparing apples with oranges. Not only is the software different, but the philosophy behind the software development, and the community as a whole is different.
      Apart from a lot of the trolling that is taking place here, many of the comments are being posted from a position of emotion, rather than logic and reason. Certainly there is nothing wrong with being passionate about something you enjoy, but when your emotions cloud your vision, and it causes someone to start defending things based on emotion, you lose all credibility. Defending things based on emotion is what happens to the religious fundamentalists, and over enthusiastic sports fans, and many others. You lose clarity of vision, and simply attack people because you perceive they are attacking or speaking against something you hold dear.
      If you like SL, and you are comfortable with the ToS changes, then by all means, go and play in SL. If you are some way affected by these changes, and you are not happy with them, then of course you have a right to say so, and why. If LL has the right to change it’s ToS at any time and without consulting the community first, then so too, does the is community that is affected by these changes, have the right to discuss them.

      1. gordon.twine@gmx.com'

        Oh yeah, the honorable Opensim users are all good people. But instead of presenting the benefits of Opensim on their blogs and news sites, they are constantly trying to inflict damage on Second Life. And some self-appointed spokespersons have nothing else to do, than to post propaganda all day with their anti-SL comments.

        Look at the blogs and social networks of these so-called OpenSim enthusiasts. OpenSim is rarely the subject of their topics. They rather focus on harming Linden Lab, Second Life and the SL community. A really sad picture.

        1. Hello Gordon, well I cannot speak on behalf of other blogs, or on behalf of other OpenSim users. I should also point out that I cannot speak for Maria, or HyperGrid Business. What I will do though is state that this website http://www.hypergridbusiness.com is a news site relating to OpenSim, and businesses and the opportunities that revolve around OpenSim.
          As has been stated, SecondLife is not a part of OpenSim, and certainly not on the HyperGrid, however, it is still a large part of the virtual world, after all, it is the biggest and the most successful virtual world out there. But again, most of us either started our virtual world experience in SL, or are still involved in SL to some degree. Therefore the news that LL has changed it’s ToS, and the massive amount of discussion and buzz that this is creating (just see the mass of blogs, and other news site links that have been provided here and elsewhere) means that it is a “hot potato” and certainly is news worthy of inclusion on a news oriented site like HyperGrid Business.
          The LL ToS change doesn’t mean that everyone should just start hating SL, there is still much good in SL, I have been there for years, it is where I started, and have many fond memories of the place, but I have now decided to cease using SL, as I don’t agree with or accept the new ToS. My contribution to this issue is to state, I don’t agree with it, I think this is a serious breach of trust on behalf of LL against in customers, and certainly represents an almost 180 degree turn on the part of LL concerning the usage rights of User Created Content. But fortunately for me, I am not a creator in SL, so I can easily just cease using it and close my account. As a grid owner, I also have my own grid that I am a part of, so not using SL anymore, doesn’t affect me as much as say someone who has a business in SL and makes a significant income from it, to them it is a much more serious issue, and having a place to discuss that is what websites, blogs, and forums are all about.
          I think it is a shame that this news article and the comments section has been hijacked away from the topic at hand, and has turned into a rant both for and against SL and OpenSim. It should be possible to discuss issues like this, in a mature, adult way without resorting to ad-hominem attacks, simply because someone doesn’t agree with another persons opinion.

  13. joeybhyx@gmail.com'

    I’m very surprised so many Opensim residents, grid owners and even hosting services have done a swell job here. Now more and more SL creators who may use Opensim as possibly of a satellite store now may not. Congrats to all the self proclaimed Promoters, Even if you turned 1 away you did damage. Keep up the good fight maybe you people will run everyone away.

  14. karelboard@aol.com'

    “you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense
    (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit,
    publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and
    otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your
    User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever
    in all formats,”

    Pretty clear what it means, it almost reads verbatim to the TOS put up on a web site forum I once joined several years ago and uploaded photos to, once I saw that TOS giving them perpetual free rights to my content to use in any of their media I demanded removal of my six photos. I practically had to take them to court to do it, but they reluctantly removed them.

  15. maria@tromblyinternational.com'

    This seems to have turned into a Second Life vs. OpenSim thread, so I’m closing the comments. And I’d like to remind OpenSim people: Second Life is where many, if not most, of us started out, which first inspired us with a vision of virtual worlds. Second Life continues to be a source of new users for OpenSim grids. Second Life also continues to be the foremost destinations for meetings, events, trainings, which many of us continue to attend and benefit from. And don’t forget all the materials that Second Lifers post — how-to videos, tutorials of all kinds, sample scripts, and so much more. We benefit from all that.

    Meanwhile, Second Life benefits from OpenSim. It’s not obvious yet, but OpenSim is already demonstrating a significant amount of innovation and an entry-level price point for people interested in virtual worlds. Second Life still has the opportunity — and probably will, for at least another couple of years — to become the main meeting place of the hypergrid, the default currency of the hypergrid, the default marketplace of the hypergrid. Right now, the hypergrid is probably too small for Linden Lab to bother with, but it’s growing, and, especially for schools and private companies, offers functionality that the Second Life grid can’t match. (Like backups and user controls.) And all the experimentation is happening without Linden Lab having to spend a dollar.

    There’s no need to force people to choose between the two platforms. There’s no law saying you can’t have land or avatars in both. The two platforms are complimentary. Each has some features that the other doesn’t. Which gives users more choices, which makes virtual worlds as a whole more attractive. And that should be the end goal for all of us. To get more people using immersive platforms, which have the potential of dramatically changing… well, everything.

Comments are closed.