Grid openings, closings, price changes and more

The new year begins with both good news, and bad news.

The bad news, first.

Haven, a small commercial grid, closed as of December 27.  According to a letter by the founder, health issues have cut into both the time and the financial resources she is able to dedicate to the grid.

Welcome Centre region on Haven: Your World. (Image courtesy Haven.)

Welcome Centre region on Haven: Your World. (Image courtesy Haven.)

In better news, several new grids are opening up.

The largest are the Great Canada Grid and the Italian-language AviWorld3D.

Great Canada Grid opens

The Great Canada Grid is currently in beta, so is still working on creating its own currency, grid founder Roddie Macchi told Hypergrid Business.

It is hypergrid-enabled, but hypergrid will be turned off sometime in the spring. Until then, those interested can visit the grid by teleporting to 162.220.166.151:9000 from any other hypergrid-enabled grid.

(Image courtesy Great Canadian Grid.)

(Image courtesy Great Canadian Grid.)

 

Macchi said he was inspired to start the grid because of the hundreds of people who contacted him in Second Life after the loss of the Great Canadian Cabin group.

“Until I created the Great Canadian Cabin in Second Life, there was really no place for Canadians to meet and mingle and maybe even meet in real life,” he said. “Because, let’s face it, if you find the girl or man of your dreams, it’s a lot easier if they live in the same country.”

Macchi added that he has enough resources allocated up front to run the grid for four years even if things go badly in his personal life. He added that the primary goal of the grid is to be a huge success at serving the Canadian community — and their friends from other countries — and he plans to keep prices low. A 15,000-prim region is CAD $15 a month, with no visitor limits, and an 8,000-prim region is $8 a month.

Karmalot Kingdom holds grand opening party

Karmalot Kingdom, a hypergrid-enabled grid serving the Dominant/submissive adult lifestyle, is holding a grand opening event on January 4 from noon to 8 p.m. Eastern time, or 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Pacific.

The grid uses the Karmalot Coin as an in-world fictional currency that both residents and visitors can earn by mining, fishing, hunting and other in-world activities. Items bought with Karmalot Coins on the Karmalot Village Market region can be taken home to other grids.

Main entrance to Karmalot. (Image courtesy Karmalot.)

Main entrance to Karmalot. (Image courtesy Karmalot.)

Another World to give away US$1,000 to a new paying resident

Interested in winning $1,000 in American dollars? Buy a $5 premium membership on the Another World grid or rent a 12,000-prim homestead region at $30 a month.

Tropical Paradise holds two-for-one land sale

The closed commercial grid Tropical Paradise Virtual World is holding a two-for-one land sale until the end of January.

Residents who rent a 24,000-region for US $60 a month, will get a second region free.

TPVW Land Sale Promo

OpenSim Creations to host Linda Kellie and Arcadia Asylum items

OpenSim Creations, a content sharing site and grid, will soon have all of Linda Kellie’s and Arcadia Asylum’s items available for download. And, starting on January 1, 10 percent of all payments and donations received will go towards funding OpenSim development.

If you haven’t donated yet, weekly contributions start at just 25 cents. The donation page is here.

Virtual Highway reports successful 2013

The commercial Virtual Highway grid reports that its user base more than doubled over the course of 2013.

“We have had a very good 2013 and happy to have so many new friends join us on the Virtual Highway road trip,” said grid founder Gene Call. “We are looking forward to an equally enjoyable 2014 and have many more exciting things planned.” According to Call, 1100 new user accounts were created in 2013.

According to Hypergrid Business data, total registered users increased by 150 percent, from 756 at the end of 2012 to 1884 at the end of this year. Active monthly users increased by 100 percent, from 115 to 231 from year-end 2012 to year-end 2013.

Part of the increase was due to in-world events. Last month, for example, the grid decorated two sims for the holidays, organized live music and DJs, held a snowman building contest, a treasure hunt celebrating a new boardwalk build, and a fundraiser for the Feed a Smile charity.

Holiday build contest winners. (Image courtesy Virtual Highway.)

Holiday build contest winners. (Image courtesy Virtual Highway.)

Next year promises to be just as busy for grid. Virtual Highway’s January events calendar, for example, is booked solid with DJs and live music events.

Kitely announces new price plans

Kitely has made a big step towards a more traditional pricing model today with its new pricing plans.

“We’ve eliminated the concept of minutes and made Kitely free to visit,” Oren Hurvitz, Kitely’s Co-founder and VP R&D, said in the announcement. “The only people who will now need to pay for access to worlds are the people who own those worlds. We’ve also lowered our prices to make Kitely your best choice for getting your own virtual worlds.”

Previously, every Kitely user got a certain number of minutes to use in-world. Free users got six hours the first month, and two hours a month after that. Once those minutes were used up, residents could only visit those regions where the region owner subsidized their time.

Part of the reason for this change was to reduce complexity for users, Hurvitz said. But it also makes hypergrid travel easier, since visitors from other grids wouldn’t have reserves of Kitely Minutes to pay for their time on the grid. “And we wanted to make sure they’ll still be able to visit Kitely worlds.”

The price schedule is now lower than that offered by most commercial grids, but similar to that of hosting providers such as Zetamex.

A single 15,000-prim region capable of holding up to 10 avatars is about $15 a month. A 60,000-prim region or four-region megaregion that can hold up to 40 avatars is about $50 a month. And a 100,000-prim region which can be scaled all the way up to a 16-region megaregion, capable of holding up to 100 avatars, is around $100 a month.

This is relatively straightforward. However, Kitely has also retained the option to have regions that are billed by usage, and here is where it gets complicated.

These regions — called “Metered Worlds” — cost 1 Kitely Credit per minute per visitor. Every Kitely user automatically gets one free metered region, and six hours of time to spend in that region. Once that time runs out, however and they want to keep visiting that region, they’ll either have to buy additional Kitely Credits, upgrade to a Premium Account or change the region to a flat-rate region. The Premium Account, which costs around $20 a month, allows the user unlimited access to Kitely, and comes with five free metered regions.

Since there are now two tiers of users — regular and premium — owners of metered regions now have new access options. Specifically, they can restrict their regions so that only Premium Account holders can visit them, meaning that there is no charge for their time to the region owner.

Ilan Tochner

Ilan Tochner

So far, the reaction has been positive, said Kitely CEO Ilan Tochner.

“Our subscription-based revenue has more than doubled since we announced our new pricing structure,” he told Hypergrid Business. “Now that the full details have been released, we’re seeing continued enthusiasm for the Premium Account and growing interest for our new Starter Worlds. Today’s update eliminated time-based billing from the concerns of people who just want to visit other people’s worlds. This in turn has helped get more people discussing the benefits of using our service.”

Littlefield to celebrate Festival of Lights, debuts mesh clothing

Littlefield Grid will be celebrating the Festival of Lights on January 5.

“This traditionally follows 12 days after Christmas, commemorating the Star of Bethlehem guiding the Wise Men,” grid founder Walter Balazic told Hypergrid Business.

The Luminaria region will be lined with luminaria — candles held inside small sand-filled paper bags.

“There will be a dazzling display of lights and stars to decorate the sparkling white winter landscape,” Balazic said. In additions, visitors can enjoy ice skating and dancing, with free ice sakes and warm winter clothes available. The event is open to hypergrid visitors, who should teleport to lfgrid.com:8002:Luminaria.

Several in-world merchants have begun to offer lines of mesh clothing, including AW and Amy Storm’s stores.

“Unfortunately, these are licensed items and templates from content creators outside the grid, and to abide by their licensing agreements they are only available to members of Littlefield Grid,” said Balazic. “They cannot be brought to other grids.”

The grid also has a full calendar of live music, art and other events planned for this month.

Island Oasis debuts new welcome region, website, and region prices

Island Oasis has revamped its website, its starting region for new residents, and upgraded the grid to the latest version of OpenSim, including support for groups and BulletSim physics.

New Welcome Zone. (Image courtesy Island Oasis.)

New Welcome Zone. (Image courtesy Island Oasis.)

The grid has updated its land prices slightly, with the cost of a 40,000-prim region going up from US $60 to $65 a month. A Second Life-standard region of 15,000 prims is now $35 a month — previously, the closest equivalent was a 20,000-prim region for $30 a month. There is also now a $25 one-time setup fee for any new region purchase. Region owners who purchased their regions under earlier plans are grandfathered in, and will be able to continue under the previous pricing structure.

Region owners will get perks, however, including monthly in-world currency stipends and free landscape regions after six consecutive months of land rentals.

Meanwhile, stay on top of Island Oasis events by checking its online calendar. This week, there is a Trivia Mania party on Friday with DJ Gem, and a Best in Black party on Saturday.

Avalonia Estate focuses on its lifestyle niche

Avalonia Estate, an adult-only grid serving the Femdom community, is doubling-down on its business strategy. While other grid typically focus on reaching out to the general population of existing OpenSim or Second Life users, Avalonia is expanding its focus on the Femdom niche through a marketing partnership with Men Submit, an online Femdom community.

“We are providing them with space in world to provide a ‘physical’ virtual home for their large ready made FLR  – Female Led Relationship/Lifestyle — community so they can run classes, provide information about their books and in-world discussions and talks,” grid owner Justin Ireman told Hypergrid Business. “And in return they are going to promote us to their community, with the possibility of me being invited to a podcast to talk about Avalonia Estate and virtual worlds and exploring Femdom in them.”

As part of its intensified focus, the grid is taking addition steps to ensure that minor cannot get access to adult materials on the grid. This includes a charge of GBP £1 for new membership applications and changing access permissions so that hypergrid visitors cannot enter adult regions.

In addition, the grid deleting some user accounts, which will result in a drop in total registered users in the monthly statistics. This is an unusual step, since most grids don’t delete user accounts, even ones that have been dormant for a long time.

But Avalonia is not a typical grid.

“Our goal is not to aim for the maximum amount of users that we can, but aim for the ‘right kind’ of user,” said Ireman. “In line with this philosophy I am removing the accounts of those we deem to be dormant accounts, or those of individuals who we have deemed not to be in line with the type of user we are aiming for.”

In particular, the grid is looking for people interested in being long-term members of the community, not those looking for a quick sexual thrill.

Those interested in become members need to submit an application, for example, and demonstrate to the grid administrators that they are serious. Parts of the grid are open to hypergrid visitors, however, for those interested in learning more about the grid.

For more of this month’s events, check out the Metropolis Events Calendar, the FrancoGrid Events Calendar, the Avination Events Calendar, the InWorldz Events Calendar (free registration required), and the 3rd Rock Grid Events Calendar.

Last updated by at .

maria@hypergridbusiness.com'

Maria Korolov

Maria Korolov is editor and publisher of Hypergrid Business. She has been a journalist for more than twenty years and has worked for the Chicago Tribune, Reuters, and Computerworld and has reported from over a dozen countries, including Russia and China.

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  • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

    So many goodies here, I must comment!!

    First, tho, sadly, I will miss Haven Grid, and I wish Cheryl all the very best…she was always very nice, and never had anything negative to say…it was always relaxing to visit her grid….major hugs Cheryl.

    I did see someone from hg.tropicalparadisevirtualworld.com:8052: in Metropolis yesterday..a Baxton…so maybe it is closed to the peons and open for others? dunno, but I saw her, and even IM’ed her.

    I know of several ppl I knew from other grids have gone to VH now, mostly from inwz and IO…I don’t go in that grid anymore but have seen notices posted around mentioning their names.

    IO raising their prices, tho of course being low for SL types who know nothing else, is not in line with decreasing regions costs now…maybe they just don’t know, or care. But any grid that would ban Linda Kellie, as they did, isn’t worth the efforts anyways, imo.

    Kitely is doing great, as expected. It is already the goto commercial grid, and when HG is opened as well as other short term plans come into effect, it will be even more so….unfortunately, the side effect will be more negativity and ramped up lowbrow tactics from those invested in other commercial grids…sadly.

    And last but not least, as the Metropolis calendar shows, Andremus Miklos, whom I knew from inwz, and used to book him there, will be singing for the first time, for us, for free…I love these entertainers who give their talents to the Meta…there are few of them, but it is slowly but surely growing. He sings in French and English and ppl can HG in on the 4th @ 1pm slt/pst/metatime. hypergrid.org:8002:saturna and I truly hope he gets a good attendance as this only benefits us all in the free Meta-))

    Metro is also starting it’s next Season of Arts SoA soon…I don’t have details on that atm but they can be contacted via the forums http://forum.hypergrid.org/?sid=ea53f8ad1af1b758487e29bd5650824e

    So that wraps up my positive and negative comment for today, which should give the trolls some fun, and please the good people who notice-)))

    • Hoorah4Hijacking

      Way to hijack the thread as usual and make it some kind of advertisment for Kitely and Metro like you always do. How much are they paying you? You ever think of starting your OWN online periodical and doing your advertising there? I guess it’s easier just to hijack someone elses rather than do the work yourself. Maybe if Metro cared enough they would send reports monthly to Maria like she asks rather than you doing your own news report in the comments section. Moreover, doesn’t Ilan toot his own horn enough here without you tooting it for him? Why doesn’t HE tell us how great Kitely is doing… oh wait.. he will I’m sure.

      • Guest

        That’s her signature always putting her nose in everyone’s business, Wish she would just go away and stop brown nosing

      • http://iliveisl.com Ener Hax

        i can assure you that Kitely doesn’t pay Minethere. i’ve been a big mouthpiece for how great their service is and i’ve driven over 100 hours of visitor traffic to my builds but apart from a one time free chunk of KCs (retail of $40) that they gave many people when they first started, they’ve never paid me

        the number of tweets, blog posts, and the in-world builds far exceeded that gift

        Kitely is a good service and their prior billing was incredibly good but even my single sim there is double their new single sim prim limit

        the 100K/100 avatar standard was the new yardstick for the OpenSim world. their new billing no longer works for us, but their performance is still the best and their donation of OpenSim source code is commendable and benefits us alll

        • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

          Thank you Ener.

          I want to clarify that all the Fixed-Price World options can be used for creating single-region worlds as well so if you want to use the Advanced World option with a single-region world you can do so. Please note that the Standard World and Advanced World options state they support “up to X regions” instead of just stating “X regions”.

          You can, for example, use the Standard World to create a single-region world with 60,000 prims or use it to create a 4-region world with the same prim allocation (per world not per region). The Standard World which supports up to 40 concurrent avatars costs $49.95/month.

          Alternatively, you an still use the Metered World (pay for time) option to create worlds that are up to 16 regions in size, support up to 100 concurrent avatars and include up to 100,000 prims.

        • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

          well, if any grid could pay my minimum starting fee of 2,000 USD [with perqs, of course] a month, to just start my considering it…I would not be adverse to that-))))

          • http://iliveisl.com Ener Hax

            lol, i do a lot of work for burritos! =D

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            and some nice verde salsa spread over some beef enchiladas and tamales????-)) [this could be part of the perqs they offer---hint hint wink wink]

      • Maria Korolov

        Hoorah — I totally don’t mind people posting announcements here that I missed! In fact, the whole point of this monthly article is an overview of events, promotions, sales, etc… — things which maybe don’t require an article of their own, but could be useful and interesting for people.

        So if anyone else has an event, promotion, sale, or anything else to shill — please, shill, shill away! And don’t forget to email me around the end of the month at [email protected] with your news announcements. Bonus points for including a photo!

        – Maria Korolov (signing in from a different machine, having login problems with Disqus with Lubuntu Linux.)

        • Jack Smith

          My question is Maria why these grids like Inworldz, Avination, Kitely and a few others don’t merge the operations they have?
          Then they all can become share holder’s in a much larger rival to Secondlife that would have the needed programmer’s,capital interest with the ability to get lower server rates combined with a unified marketing brand as this has happened in almost every industry but in opensim .?
          How do you seek outside investment into opensim to further its development when the people who are currently the top grid’s cannot or will not take the chances to take a real business perspective & start seeing each other as partners in something bigger then themselves and invest in each other. no matter the excuses that is the reason that will be giving is excuses but if outside business’s interests are not able to see that fluid creative and adaptive change for opensim do not expect them to come in invest anything or be the change.

          An old saying goes ” never help the man who refuses to help himself”

          Jack Smith

          • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

            Jack — Because you’re confusing a virtual world as a platform and a virtual world as a product.

            Consider AOL back in the day. It wanted to be a platform — the place where people would go for shopping, news, everything. Like of like Microsoft Windows became a platform, and everything happened within that proprietary ecosystem.

            Or the way the Apple App Store is a platform for mobile app developers, and all the other device makers got together on Android because you can’t have too many competing platforms. You can have one winner, a couple of folks duking it out for second place, and everyone else either dies or survives by finding a deep niche and hanging on tooth and claw.

            Second Life wanted to be a platform. Just like AOL wanted to be a platform. But, after the rise of the World Wide Web, it turned out that AOL wasn’t a platform after all, but just another product. Think of how many websites there are out there now! Imagine if someone came along early on and said, “Hey, Yahoo! and Google and Amazon — you can’t compete against AOL. Each of you is just delivering one piece of the puzzle. Join together and you might have something!”

            Now, with the hypergrid, it turns out that the same is true of virtual worlds. A virtual world that is connected via the hypergrid isn’t a platform, but just one destination among many. It’s the hypergrid that’s the platform, and the more different virtual worlds there are on it, the more attractive the hypergrid is as a whole.

            The World Wide Web wouldn’t be particularly attractive if all you had was one website you could go to. It’s the variety, the constant turnover and innovation, that makes it compelling and attractive.

            Same is true for the hypergrid. All those tiny little worlds, each doing something different, with a different business model, different audience — they are enriching the hypergrid.

            But what about virtual worlds that aren’t on the hypergrid?

            Personally, I think that’s just a matter of time. Many of the biggest commercial closed virtual worlds have already announced plans to turn on hypergrid connectivity. Some are waiting to finish up other projects (like Kitely), others are waiting for hypergrid security permissions to get all the bugs beaten out of them (Avination), and many of the rest are just waiting for the big guys to make the switch, and then they’ll follow along.

            Some grids will always stay closed, just as there are proprietary games that you can’t access via the Internet — even games that require proprietary hardware! They provide a higher-end experience to users, can innovate faster, and want to protect their intellectual property. School and company grids might also stay closed, for security reasons (such as they do now with their intranets), while keeping a region or two up on the hypergrid for marketing and outreach reasons.

            But, overall, I believe the variety of options on the hypergrid is a good thing, and will continue to get better. Eventually, even Second Life might join in. After all, AOL did, finally, get on the Web.

    • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

      Just an fyi, I am seeing several of the http://tropicalparadisevirtualworld.com/ people in Metropolis mostly in freebie places….odd since you say, and I guess they say, they are closed. Someone might wish to look into this more.

      Not that it matters, I just find it curious…perhaps they have it open for now in order to stock up…lol

      • Maria Korolov

        I’m checking with the owners now.

        • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

          -))

          • Maria Korolov

            They’re testing hypergrid, but the grid is not open for outside visitors at this time.

            From the owners: “As of right now, we are testing hypergate, it is not open for visitors to come in at this time. Once we have finished our testing we will make a decision at that time to either keep the gate open or to close it completely. We have heard alot about it so we decided to test it out.because we have heard positive and negative comments. So we thought it best to look into it ourselves and then make a decision. If we decide to open to visitors you will be the first one we let know, but at this time the gate is closed to general public and visitors.”

          • dave baxton

            Minethere, as the owner of Tropical Paradise Virtual World, I welcome you to come in my grid, and we are more then willing to talk to you. Seems you have a lot of things to put out there about my grid, but don’t come into the grid or make any attempt to contact us directly ( which can be done through the support page of our website) to get the facts but put things on this page. So do me a favor, come on in and we will talk to you and you can get all the info you like.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            eh? I just noticed is all, is that a problem for you? I haven’t put “a lot of things about that grid”…just enjoy HG, it’s fun, and nobody minds you all stocking up on freebies in any HG enabled grids, in fact, they like it-))

            btw, I also know Thishan, he will remember me fondly, I am sure.

            If your grid is open to HG, then, of course, I may drop in sometimes, as well as many others, if some interesting things are posted about it in various social sites…this is the freedom of OS-))

            I have an HG address but since it is only outward bound, it seems, then I will wait, as will others.

          • Guest

            I’m sure she will twist it around to make you look bad, she’s like the old neighbor who peeps out the window and gossips to everyone. Just ask a few people from the big grid

  • Justin Ireman

    Great article Maria, and good to see OpenSim flourishing and so many activities going on around the Metaverse. I just wanted to correct one small error in your article about us (Avalonia Estate) We charge GBP£1.00 as the adult verification joining fee, not EURO$1.00.

    The UK is a part of the European Union, but we are not a part of the Euro currency, we use GBP – Great British Pound (Sterling) as national currency. Just wanted to correct that.

    What I find so exciting is that OpenSim can be used in many ways. Yes we can have the large commercial social grids, for those that want that, we can have the semi-private members grids (like ourselves), the closed school or enterprise grids, or the humble standalone. I think there is room in the Metaverse for all these different implementations…something for everyone, and I think that beats SL hands down. Happy New Year, everyone :)

  • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

    Thanks, I just made the correction!

  • Sugar Paolino

    I’m not sure where Maria got her information but Island Oasis has NOT raised their land prices. Our full regions (40,000 prims) have always been $65.00 and our homestead regions (20,000 prims) have always been $35.00 per month. We simply modified the prim allotment and usage guidelines to better utilize our system resources. We also phased out our premium region and introduced an educational region for accredited educational institutions at a reduced rate.

    We have always has support for groups, but with our recent upgrade to version 0.7.6 we are leveraging the V2 group module that is now included in the opensim core.

    The region owner stipend and the region owner appreciation gift programs have been in place for several months as well as the cash back stimulus program which pays back 2% of everything our residents spend in world each month.

    Regards,
    Sugar Paolino

  • Talla Adam

    Thank you Maria. Good article and it is wonderful to see new grids emerging. The free Metaverse is getting bigger all the time and we at the Google Plus community of Opensim Virtual have been working hard to help it along. All Opensim grids whether closed commercial grids or Hypergrid connected grids are welcome to promote their world free of charge in our community. All grids are welcome and many already make use of the portal. We welcome news of events too as well as adds for virtual products, both freebie and sale items. Opensim Virtual is the largest of the G+ Opensim communities with over 560 members from many different grids. Opensim Virtual helps to forge contacts and bring the Metaverse community together. There are very active daily topics and discussions including help with technical problems. We welcome pictures and info about grids too so please feel free to tell us about your grid. Find Opensim Virtual at http://bit.ly/KnCkBW

    Happy New Year Everyone!

  • Talla Adam

    Thank you Maria. Good article and it is wonderful to see new grids emerging. The free Metaverse is getting bigger all the time and we at the Google Plus community of Opensim Virtual have been working hard to help it along. All Opensim grids whether closed commercial grids or Hypergrid connected grids are welcome to promote their world free of charge in our community. All grids are welcome and many already make use of the portal. We welcome news of events too as well as adds for virtual products, both freebie and sale items. Opensim Virtual is the largest of the G+ Opensim communities with over 560 members from many different grids. Opensim Virtual helps to forge contacts and bring the Metaverse community together. There are very active daily topics and discussions including help with technical problems. We welcome pictures and info about grids too so please feel free to tell us about your grid. Find Opensim Virtual at http://bit.ly/KnCkBW

    Happy New Year Everyone!

  • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

    oh, I just realized I know you [forgive me, my 2 brain cells left that barely function keep knocking up against the ones that don't...causes all sorts of issues]…

    So I looked back on IM history I had with you on another grid-))

    Let me point Sarge Misfit here as he is Canadian. And maybe we can talk further if you wish, via g+ or in opensimcity.org [which is a nice forums type and more website run by a wonderful woman by the name of Marisa.

  • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

    and I also just noticed you have HG enabled….feel free to come to my main static region [which is only updated with new stuff] @ hypergrid.org:8002:formyfriends and I can add you to my build group, if you wish, and friend me also would be cool-))

    btw, I highly recommend you keep HG open, it is the future and closed grids will do nothing but continue to cause drama until they go away….besides, it is much more relaxing and fun, so why not? lol

    • Guest

      “btw, I highly recommend you keep HG open, it is the future and closed grids will do nothing but continue to cause drama until they go away….besides, it is much more relaxing and fun, so why not? lol”
      Can we quote you? Being Kitely is closed.

      • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

        heya, thx for another pre-planned seque answer…I love predictable people, it makes things so much easier-))

        Ilan is well aware of my thoughts on HG, as I have told him often, and so is everyone else who pays attention further than their own noses.

        Kitely is a uniquely different commercial grid, having nothing to do with any comments I may make concerning the pack of the other handful or so around.

        Kitely is on track to open to HG, as many more astute watchers know…all they have done is towards that goal, it is clear it will happen. When will this happen? I think sooner than promised in the past, in the neighborhood of a couple more months, which to me is a blip in time, to someone like yourself, it may be when you got out of grade school…who knows, who cares….

        I am also not a shill or boot-licker for Kitely, my own personal overall focus is on HG…if Kitely were to somehow decide to not do that [which anything is likely in life, it is doubtful] then I would move on and likely only mention them in regards to other innovations they do.

        Nothing is as simple as some think it is, tho many ppl are often more simple, and predictable due to this, than should be.

        Kitely’s business model is the only innovative one in the commercial grid aspect, bar none…which is why I often comment [and did above] that the drama and underhanded unethical tactics will ratchet up over this next year, against them, and will become more and more obvious, even to those on the far left side of the Bell curve.

        Kitely is also the only commercial grid in OS that has owners who actually have run real life businesses, not just run some virtual business, and thus are above the silly fray due to that simple item.

        And, thank you, for letting me further pontificate, but this is not to such as you, but to others paying attention…and I still have my morning burst of rapidly declining energy.

        • Guest

          Only repeated your words, No need to start side stepping now. In the future be careful what you preach, Being you do sound like a stock holder…

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            I wish I could afford stock in Kitely [assuming they ever went public], but, alas, I cannot afford speculating in anything anymore, and those days are gone, by the by.

            The stock market is a risky business, one can lose much, or gain much, to easily for a conservative spender such as I have always been.

            Now, if they were to offer a percent of the business, in real money, I might even look around for some new brain cells and give it a try [not that this would happen, of course, nor that I would even do it, but it would be the best bet, hands down]…

            Anywho, have a nice day-))

    • Roddie Macchi

      Hi Minethere….still new to this forum but to answer your question about hypergrid…what a lot of people don’t realize is that its very easy for someone to grab someones creations that you buy in other grids than take it to their own as a GOD grid owner and can literally rip it apart, meaning they can go to their own grid they own and use their GOD mode in their viewer to grab all the scripts, notes, and the creation itself then turn around and copy it to their name as a creator.
      That is very dangerous to allow right now especially if you want professional creators on your grid. The good news is if and when Hypergrid becomes secure for now The Singularity Viewer has a great feature that allows people who own hypergrids to set their content to ALLOW or NOT ALLOW to cross boarders…which will help in the security of grid owners with hypergrid for their creators who live there…but that’s still in testing as well…so until hypergrid is completely secure…its not ideal for creators who work hard to have it easily accessible like that. I hope this answers your question as to why we will soon be taking Hypergrid off…:)

      • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

        I didn’t have any questions, actually, lol…I am fully aware of the talk about such things, and they do not interest me.

        HG will enable you to enjoy the greater and growing Metaverse, that’s all I was suggesting.

        If you have convinced yourself to do yet another commercial grid, have fun-))

        All I am saying is that the pond has few fish in it, and causes all sorts of problems in many regards….The trending is to HG enabled grids, whether free opensim or commercial, such as Kitely is about to do.

        It will be an uphill battle for you and with some stiff competition due to the fact of the few ppl thing, and that most are going to free opensim.

        Just a warning, is all, that you don’t see now, but will, eventually.

        I just wish to see more people have fun with all this, rather than chase a buck or two, when it is not even necessary, and there is much info on the matter in many places.

        Regardless, I wish ya the best.

        • wolftimber

          “.The trending is to HG enabled grids, whether free opensim or commercial, such as Kitely is about to do.”

          That’s right, if a grid wants to be a walled garden like SL then people have little to no reason to go there. More people will visit other grids via HG tp than having to go to a web site, create a whole new account, a log in, password, give yet another place your email address, wait for the confirmation email, confirm that, change your viewer to log in, remember the password for yet another grid log-in, then have to create a whole new version of your avatar unless you want to be Ruth, and then keep track of yet another acct inventory.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            And on top of that, then go try to find anything interesting in them, find the couple or so regions that are [if you are lucky], then find the rest of the grid is boring as sin. full of boring people who only want accounts and content…lol

            Why waste time? The best thing that happened for me was finding the the free meta, and specifically the freedom of hypergating…I now had an endless opportunity to explore the tons of cool visions ppl are doing, such that I never am bored.

            The drama and issues that come out of them, that some ppl accept as natural, some ppl enjoy because that is their nature, and some ppl like because they have mental issues, is really, really sad to me.

            Fortunately, they are and will go away, and I expect by year end the tapestry of this current VR will be much different.

            I have had a few people I had known from closed commercial grids find me again, lately, and they are just giddy enjoying hypergating….I love seeing that excitement from people who had mostly lost being excited about anything in all this anymore, and I love seeing them explore…and, I have not even given them places I like so much yet [I don't want them to get too overwhelmed...lol]

            To me, seeing jaded or bored ppl find a new fun thing, is the best, best thing.

          • wolftimber

            Yeah that’s about the extent of it when you find the sims run by or rented by people whose sole interest in the whole thing is how much MONEY they can pull out of the “game” selling 25 cent virtual goods and checking on their vendors by logging in once a week almost as an afterthought- who needs ‘em, their fifth “store” OR their “creative” stuff in opensim, “creators” and people like that can STAY in SecondLife for all I care.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            I actually think the sl clone business model is going to be shown as a passing fad, in the fullness of time. I even did a little blog where I spoke to this.

            The problem is that it does not take any kind of business sense to run one of these commercial grids, so, other than the Kitely ppl, those who are trying to make a buck in it really have no proper real business owner experience, they just apparently think that getting with some tech ppl [with various degrees of exp] and simply saying they now have a commercial grid, and ppl will come to it, will make them rich.

            When it does not happen, and the trends are going away from that, they resort to all they know, which is underhanded and unethical, lowbrow nonsense…because all they know is how to run virtual stuff….they have no clue at all on how to do proper customer service or treat people with proper respect…it is a seat of the pants business model, and the more people who continue to see it for what it is, will go…unfortunately go do something else entirely for many, or just go to our own simulators.

            This is why I think the Kitely model may save what is left for those who need any money they can make in all this to live on…there is nothing wrong with that, ppl need money, it is HOW they make money that shows their true character and worth.

            As long as we can still run our own simulators, freely, and some can choose to sell content via the kitely model, I see a nice blending that cuts most of the strife and drama that fills and chokes things now from the other commercial grids. The smart ones will open to HG, at the very least, share in an open way, speak true words rather than 2-faced nonsense about how they are for the improvement of the Meta, not just their own silly little grid, but all of us ..the rest can go away as far as I am concerned.

          • wolftimber

            Agreed there, the funny thing is how peope continue to assume that keeping HG tp shut off or adding “security” to it by not allowing exports is somehow going to stop people from simply entering a sim/grid via other avenues and just copybotting what they want.

            As some have claimed- 5 minutes and your entire sim and all it’s contents are copied, there are no textures made that can’t simply be copies, if not directly then by taking a screen capture of it.

            And realistically, when you see all these texture packs for sale in SL- thousands of different textures from trees to rusted metal and bricks, windows, brick walls, stone, sand, bark etc etc you just KNOW the seller- one- person did not go all over the world personally to get photos of palm trees in the South, snow covered pine trees in Canada, cliffs on the UK coast line, red clay mud in Utah, grafitti in Chicago and sand on the Sahara desert just to sell for 50 cents a pop- they STOLE 90% of those “textures” off websites like flickr, imgue and google images by simply downloading them or cropping a portion off some of others, some are or were available on free-to-use images sites such as CGtextures but even they have always said you are NOT to resell those free textures, and now they don’t even want them used in Second Life at all according to their revised TOS.

            What’s funny is you then have these “texture packagers” in SL complaining “their” textures were stolen!!! A bit like the bank robber complaining their partner took more than their half of the loot.

            From CGtextures:

            “Attention Second Life users: from 6
            September 2013 you are no longer permitted to add our images to Second Life or other Linden Lab products. The use of textures downloaded prior
            to this date will be subject to the terms available when you downloaded the textures.

            Why am I no longer allowed to use your images in Second Life?

            On the 15th of August 2013, Linden Lab changed their Terms of Use without any announcement or warning. One of the changes is the rights that Linden Lab claims when you upload your work.

            2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content.

            [..]you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense
            (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your
            User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and
            promote the same. You agree that the license includes the right to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or
            desirable for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future
            improvements to the Service.[..]

            As you can see from the highlighted portions, as soon as you upload any content to Second Life you give Linden Lab unlimited and irrevocable rights to do whatever they want with your work.

            The previous Second Life TOS (Terms of Use) was appropriate and reasonable: when you uploaded your work, you gave Linden Lab rights to use it in Second Life and not much more.

            As soon as you upload your model or texture, they can do literally anything they want with it. In theory their updated TOS gives them the right to take your model and start selling it on 3rd party market places like Turbosquid without giving you anything in return.

            The CGTextures Terms of Use does not allow resale of our images as ‘Textures’. The updated Second Life TOS allows unlimited resale of user
            generated content. Put these two together and it is easy to see that they are no longer compatible.”

            So from 6 September 2013 and onward, new use of
            our images in Second Life is no longer allowed. This means you are not allowed to upload any textures created with our images to Second Life at
            all (not even bundled with 3D models and also not if you heavily modified the textures).”

            There goes all those texture “packs” in Second Life that anyone downloaded off CGtextures to RESELL there!

          • Grandpa

            One day you folks need to stop using sl as a crutch for why things are what they are
            Wanna change os just donate so they can hire some real developers not the clowns who donate then remind everyone over and over what good guys they are.

          • Active Kitely Merchant

            High Fidelity is coming it will be the next Open Sim?

            One that prospers because you can host your own worlds sould familiar? Be a hosting company or pay for one sould familiar?
            As for education they have some mighty big plans with most of it free for schools and charity’s
            Everyone thinks its a Second Life replacement, its to replace Open Sim
            What your seeing below is really a few generations back its much more advanced, we will see in the fall when beta starts
            I hope they copyright everything this time because my nightmare is seeing Ilvans real life head photo popping up in the HI-FI forum looking like the Hunchback of Notre Dame saying ‘has anyone heard of the kitely market?’ ‘You can make a lot of money’.

            http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/12/making-virtual-reality-less-virtual/282640/

      • Maria Korolov

        Roddie — That’s one way to look at it. The other way is that content will get stolen, no matter what. Just look at the software industry, movies, TV shows — they spend a huge amount on DRM (anti-theft measures) and none of them work. And, of course, on the Web itself, everything is out in plain view – you can steal all the HTML and javascript you want. None of this theft has stopped the Web from growing like gangbusters, and from the video game and movie industries pulling in record profits. (In fact, there’s some research that shows that piracy helps sales of some types of content.)

        I see three solutions to this, none of which involve DRM (aka perms, aka closing down grids and having custom viewers),

        1 Make content easy to find, inexpensive, clearly licensed, and easy to use with no restrictions. (The iTunes model, which is where Kitely is also going with its marketplace.)

        2. Give away content and sell add-ons — the fremium model adopted by many mobile games.

        3 Sell subscriptions — the Netflix model, the cloud-based software model, some popular online game do this as well.

        And there’s a bunch more, too. Like giving away the product and selling services such as support and maintenance or customizations (the WordPress theme developers’ model), creating unique experiences around your content (the movie theater model),

        Counting on DRM to save your business is a non-starter. All it does is hurt legitimate users — the ones you want to buy your content legally — because it doesn’t let them do anything with it (like make backups, or take it with them when they switch grids). And it hands the pirates an advantage because *their* content can be backed up and moved — just like pirated music can be played on multiple devices, and legal, DRM-protected music can’t. Which is why iTunes and Amazon and everyone else has already dropped DRM — the only people benefitting from it were the pirates.

      • Joe Builder

        The real scary part is now Firestorm and Singularity are the hosted viewer for the Region Copy’s. All one needs to do is see a region and in 5 minutes its belongs to the copier. Here is the worst function that these newer viewers offer a automatic IP changer so now even harder to prove. Not to mention every UUID is changed to random numbers. And sadly no way to dispute who created what. This may cause a lot of negative feedback but, If a grid is commercial best to keep it closed. It wont stop the thief’s but will send them to another grid to steal from.

        • Maria Korolov

          Joe — Sounds like keeping a grid closed just gives you a false sense of security. Although, to be honest, if I was a thief I wouldn’t bother with the small OpenSim grids at all — I’d go to the biggest grid of them all to steal content — Second Life.

          • Joe Builder

            Thief’s for the most part are extremely lazy, Its Much more easier to use the getaway car (Hypergate) to leave the scene. I’ll use a small example, Walk into Island Oasis which I like a lot, and there content is good, Then walk into a smaller open grid it makes you think there is a SL portal there. The people (Residents) wear the best clothes and have the nicest homes. :) That content came from where? Answer: Other grids and SL and bet it was stolen. So yes I understand what your saying but lets be realistic about this. Hypergate is great and good, and also very bad. It has a scary reputation that will never be forgotten.

          • Maria Korolov

            Joe — Exactly. Thieves are lazy. It takes almost zero effort to create a new user account and go to some grid with really nice fancy shopping malls with all the latest content. Right now, that means you go to the closed grids, instead of wandering all over the hypergrid.

            So the question is, let’s say a merchant puts up a store on the hypergrid, and same store on a closed grid. You’re saying that a thief is more likely to steal from the hypergrid-enabled region because they don’t have to create a new account, right?

            And if one merchant puts up on a hypergrid store, and another doesn’t, the thieves will go after the first guy first?

            I think that it would save a thief time and effort to start with the biggest concentration of merchants, first, and the most high-end stores, the ones most worth stealing from.

            And there’s one company that, in effect, did that experiment — God of Games, which released The Witcher 2 DRM-free. But the version on all the torrent sites wasn’t the GOG DRM-free version, but the one where pirates had to break the DRM first.

            Wired story about this: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-12/31/gog-qa

            Tor Books recently decided to release all their ebooks DRM-free, and reports that it had no result on their sales: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/04/tor-books-uk-drm-free-one-year-later

            And, in the music industry, a new report shows that eliminating DRM actually increased sales: http://www.techspot.com/news/54872-research-shows-removing-%20drm-boosts-music-sales-up-to-41-percent.html

            DRM doesn’t stop crooks. It does hurt legitimate customers.

            At the end of the day, of course, each merchant decides for him or herself whether to lock down their content with DRM or by distributing it only on closed grids. As a customer, though, I’m always going to prefer the merchants who put me first, ahead of their fears of piracy.

          • Joe Builder

            I agree but as for many the use of Hypergate travel don’t sit well with the larger content creators. I think people can explain what you said till there blue in the face it changes nothing. This is the thought process of many in SL and the few in the closed commercial grids. Its really silly but that’s how they think. Bottom line is many creators don’t want to be in a grid that has Hypergate access. To them I suppose it just makes it that much more convenient for the bad guys to get away. And lets say 1 day they fix completely 100% HG travel still there will be doubt. And if I was to guess the day Kitley opens there grid the few creators there will find another home sadly. I know sounds completely negative, But know one wants to think of the what if’s. Its not a perfect world, one has to look at things from every angle. Not only the good ones.

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            Hi Joe,

            Not all merchants are unaware of what happens outside SL. A great many of them understand that it’s in their best interest to sell to people rather than not to sell to them. The people who would steal from merchants will do so regardless of their presence in Hypergrid-enabled grids – they simply go to SL and copybot it from there.

            As for your comment about merchants leaving once Kitely rolls out the Kitely Market Hypergrid delivery system, please note that more than a third of the items currently listed in Kitely Market are already sold with Export permission. See: http://www.kitely.com/market?perm=e
            There are also Kitely Merchants that specifically advertise the fact that they sell to the Hypergrid, see: http://www.kitely.com/market?store=2570982

          • Joe Builder

            Well, I’m not really sure what merchants your referring to. The ones who make money never leave SL and the one who do set up satellite stores. I was at one time a merchant in SL and made a good penny doing it. More people than you can imagine know exactly what goes on in the opensim arena. Now we are talking about quality items, not the stuff SL gives away freely. Those freebie making merchants are most likely to go to opensims to sell there less than quality items. I do not mean to rain on your parade but there will be a time where a opensim Marketplace that charges currency will run out of steam. Reason is there are way to many people copy botting, and simply being Opensims majority is free. And I wasn’t referring to you marketplace that’s a non issue its the Hypergate to Kitley itself. That will be the beginning of the end. Its been tried before and failed, Its the way it is in Opensims, No matter what one says they did or can do for security. That is what they want the door kept closed just like the Mother Land SL

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            There are quite a few well known merchants who are opening shops outside SL, some of them are coming to Kitely Market, just take a look for yourself.

            All content sold via Kitely Market has export controls so the merchant can decide whether or not they can be taken outside Kitely to other grids via OAR files or Hypergrid access. See: http://www.kitely.com/virtual-world-news/2013/06/12/export-permission-implemented/

            Merchants can decide which, if any, of their items can be exported via Hypergrid to other grids. The fact that people will soon be able to access parts of Kitely (the worlds that world managers allow HG-access to) via hypergrid doesn’t change that. Closed grids have no additional protection to offer on top of our content export controls – we just don’t force merchants to choose an all-or-nothing approach regarding the HG like closed grids do.

            As for copybotting via the HG, anyone who wants to use a copybot on Kitely can just as easily open a free account on SL, Inworldz, Avination, Island Oasis, etc. and use the copybot there. Blocking hypergrid access offers zero protection against copybotting as there is no barrier to opening a free account with a throwaway email address from some free email provider. Grids can’t even block copybots by IP as it’s easy to use a proxy or just go to some public place and use their open wi-fi connection to access the grid.

            Copybotting is free while buying content and taking it to your own OpenSim installation to change its permissions costs money and time. Why bother with the later when the former is so much easier?

            This entire line of closed grids are safer than open ones is built on assuming merchants can’t put two and two together and understand that the only way their content can’t be copied without their permission is if they don’t upload it into any online service. A copybot doesn’t care about permissions and most content that is copied without permission is copybotted from inside SL which as we all know is very much closed to the hypergrid. Please stop scaremongering.

          • Joe Builder

            Scaremongering? LOL why don’t you be honest for once, Stop preaching everything is peaches and crème when you of all people know damn well it isn’t. Copy Botters are here to stay I think many grids encourage them, If a Grid like Inworldz makes a tiny attempt at security than that’s the place for Merchants, And being they have many already, I’m sure more will follow. Try to be more forth coming in your comments you may be trusted more.

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            SL has done a lot against copybotters and yet content is easily copybotted in SL and taken to other grids. Merchants that avoid open grids in fear of having their content copybotted while selling in SL where their content is already being copybotted are acting irrationally.

            Where is all the content they aren’t selling in open grids coming from if not from the closed grids where they do sell that content?

            Merchants have two options: (1) they can continue seeing their content stolen from the closed grids where they do sell it to be taken to the grids where they don’t sell it; or (2) They can start selling their content to as many grids as possible so they can start profiting from their content being used in places where they currently aren’t making money. It’s their choice whether to give copybotters a monopoly on the content they created or step up and claim the profits they deserve. Not selling is not protecting their content just hurting their sales.

            Even the music industry after years of trying to combat piracy in many ways, most of which are not even viable for SL content creators, has found that the best way to profit from their content is selling it in as many places as possible. Not selling it doesn’t prevent their content from being used in those places it simply results in them not making any money when people use it in those places.

            How you consider this to be “preaching everything is peaches and creme” is beyond me.

          • Gordon

            Wow! Even an OpenSim Grid Owner says that OpenSim grids are full of copied objects. Thank you so much for honesty!

          • Joe Builder

            They know it, Its the untold secret lol. Or the one important thing they don’t want told. All they want is your rent money.

          • Joe Builder

            Kitley/Inworldz/Avnations/Isalnd Oasis are the major grids that actual sell content. Now lets review, All these grids are closed. Thes ones that charge for uploads are most likely NOT to have many copied items. The ones that are tighter than a drum I suspect by the Merchants who came from SL are highly unlikely if any. Now lets look at a Opensim wide Marketplace, That would be the best place to sell Copied items being the mass changing of UUID’s. You only fool yourself in saying it don’t happen. So basically you are a contributor to these actions. You have opened a opportunity for these sales. So far you been lucky (Low quality items). This copy botting epidemic is out of control both in SL and mainly in opensims. No matter what you do, offering some sort of security is a farce. All I have been saying take a hard long look in what makes Inworldz #1 of the most popular places to be. There is no hidden agenda there, Its a Mini SL, That’s exactly what the great creators want if anything.

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            Hi Joe,

            There is a difference between having illegally copied items uploaded into a grid and having those items sold via that grid’s marketplace. Pirated content that isn’t displayed for all to see is much harder to detect than content that is placed where anyone can see it being sold.

            Kitely has a piracy prevention advantage over SL, Inworldz, etc. in that the only place to make real money in Kitely is via its marketplace. This forces people who want to try to sell pirated content to sell it via Kitely Market as they can’t earn real money inside Kitely otherwise. However, that’s where Kitely’s 45-day marketplace revenue withholding period comes into play. Would be pirates can’t list items, sell them, convert currencies and get away with it before other people have had time to find and report them. This removes the incentive for would be content pirates to try to sell the content they’ve stolen in other grids using Kitely Market.

          • Guest
          • Joe Builder

            Read this article Ilan is all about you, Mr. Security lol

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            Note the date that was almost 3 years ago when Kitely just started its public beta and Maria Korolov uploaded an OAR file she got from OSgrid into Kitely.

            Once she was notified of the contents of that OAR
            file it was removed from Kitely. Which is exactly what should happen if someone finds that they have been using content which has been copybotted.

            The reaction time from notice to takedown was less than one hour.

            You’ve just made my point about how visibility prevents copybotting and in Kitely Market merchants have 45 days of exposure in which their content is scrutinized by many potential customers before they can start taking money out from sales made from that content. Compare that to other grids where you can sell pirated content inworld where people can’t see and quickly convert the virtual currency they earned into real money and abandon the alt you used before anyone notices.

          • Joe Builder

            Ok, But we are still haunted by the reputation of Hypergate, I have spoken to more SL merchants than we can shake a stick at. Its deep in there minds they fear this. Now yes you may very well offer a form of security, and few others try there part as well. But Ilan I really don’t think they will ever get over a open grid as a form of being secure.

          • Guest

            I like how she claims all this stuff is stolen, and that some water lilly arangement is all hers and stolen based on seeing a screen shot of a region on a web page!

          • Guest

            Yeah there’s a post on that blog about all the stolen trees and plants she claims were hers on OSgrid and posted pictures.

          • Joe Builder

            Yes I know Kitely is the next best thing to sliced bread, We all heard you 10,000 times. You sound a bit like the Aviworlds owner. I heard you a few times mention SL does it all wrong. Maybe that’s why there a Million dollar plus organization. Anyways I always enjoy your long sale speeches which really for most is comical. You are grid is probably least hit, Remember the thief’s look for quality. And your 45 day wait period is a scream, I’m surprised anyone agreed to that ridiculous amount of time to get paid. That time frame is a real false sense of security in anyone’s eyes. Anyways besides all this going back and forth, I truly think on your grids behalf consider the repercussion’s on opening a Hypergate. It may hinder better merchants from entering, So yes its a tough call that needs to be weighed

          • Alex Ferraris

            Hey now….! What is this Im like elvis now? I m long dead and still people talk about me? Man….just wished I could get the money Elvis make even when he is dead! HA!
            Guys lets not beat each other up ok.
            Open Sim platform is great and so is SL. there I said it!
            back to the grave now. see ya!
            Alex Ferraris

          • Danko Whitfield

            Alex of AviWorlds – “lets not beat each other up ok.”

            LOL – quote of the year!

          • http://www.v-lifeonline.com/ Chrisx84

            what goes around comes around alex. if you cant take the heat then dont be dishin it. Remember this for whenever you decide to redo aviworldz and smack talk all other grid owners.

          • Grandpa

            Why would anyone need to copy-bot now mister ?
            Let me see if i got this strait
            1. I make a big purchase thru Kitely Marketplace } Cream of the crop stuff
            2. It gets delivered to me thru the Hypergate
            3. I use god powers then make oars for all my friends posted thru Anon files } no possible take down, its their forever
            4. In 44 days i make a claim thru PayPal with a charge back then get my money returned }
            5. Now the 80% the seller minus your 20% before paypal fees is gone
            6. How is kitely going to make this right for the seller ?
            7. Now i have a new grid with a different PayPal account waiting to get free stuff once it slowly leaks in your marketplace all without a copy-bot viewer and terms of service warning that means nothing to me
            8. Will your reply be most want to pay that everyone that’s dishonest is a minority population did it ever occur to you that most in opensim are here because they cannot pay or refuse money of any kind
            Will you tell us the old grand dad story again regarding piracy with music files as an example?
            Sould someone write a book titled Hogwash? over this reason your leaving so much of the facts out .

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            Any content you can get in Kitely Market you can already copybot in SL without actually connecting yourself to the content via your credit card information, IP, server logs, some email address, etc. If your response is that you’ll use stolen credit card information to pay for the items then you’re breaking the law in a way that can get you arrested. I could warn you about how we’d respond but instead I’ll just recommend you take a look at my LinkedIn page and see what field, IDChoice, the company I previously ran was in.

            **PayPal doesn’t offer buyer protection for digital goods** so the money you paid us will be frozen for a while but then returned to us after we dispute your claim and offer server logs to prove that you not only bought the content but then went ahead to delivered it to a third-party. This will hurt your PayPal reputation and will have repercussions for your future use of their service. There were a few people who tried disputing buying just $5 worth of Kitely Credits. They weren’t happy with the results.

            Merchants that choose to sell exportable content via Kitely Market understand that copybotters exist, a few of them even had some of their content copybotted in SL at one time or another. So you’re trying to scare them by saying people will be able to do what they have already done in SL but will have to create some record that will help identify them in the process?? Any content pirate stupid enough to do that deserves what’s coming to him or her. :-D

          • Grandpa

            Nothing ever works out as planned you will find out the hard way as thick as your head is its going to be the only way mister

          • Name

            Anyone that wants to copy will copy and they go to SL to do it because SL is where all content is.
            A grid being closed or not closed HG. does not matter. SL is closed commercial grid and guess what? All copy botted items came from there when aviworlds was online.
            Now the subject of buying an object in a grid and then going to another grid to start an illegal spread of that item is something else. One thing I always said was that if the grid has its own currency then people who is visiting through HG travel system will not be able to buy anything because he or she needs to be a registered user of that grid in order to be able to purchase anything that is for sale that is not free.
            That is a safety strategy that I used to have in aviworlds. But it is not 100% secure. If someone really likes something and wants it; he or she will register in the that grid and purchase it or even ask a friend to purchase for him or her and then take it to the other grid. But if the grid offers the new EXPORT or not feature then I think case is closed.
            The alternative would be straight copy botting and that is something not even SL has stopped. I m sorry to say this but aviworlds has 10 regions subdivided by 4096sqm lots each region. All these regions were FULL OF COPY BOTTED items.
            We tried combatting this problem and people LEFT. People would not purchase or make their own. They all preffered to copy bot their items that they had already bought in SL. and that is another proplem. A person spent 300 dollars building their inventory in SL do you think he or she will spend another 300 in an open sim grid? I dont think so.
            My two cents…
            ALEX FERRARIS

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            Unfortunately, most of us know that Joe, and his anons, really has no compass…Joe wishes to create chaos, that is his only real goal…when I realized this myself, I just ignored him from then on out.

            I know you have a different approach to things, of course, owning a grid, but being a free spirit, I can look at things differently.

            I doubt seriously, Joe, who roams all over the Meta, has any real thing about inwz, he just likes to oppose the obvious direction of where good people are and are going to…it is his nature…ppl like Joe do not wish us all to have choices, only him…it is a mental condition [I have pretty much decided he is bi-polar...so I cut him some slack as obviously mentally disordered ppl, unless they are aggressive, which thankfully most are not, should be treated with compassion].

            Unfortunately, the nature of the net, as we all know, gives such ppl a sounding board to espouse such nonsense…but, thankfully, once their issues are obvious, they can be used as a seque to good things, or, safely, ignored. And thankfully, the good ppl have always outweighed the few [in comparison] folx with other issues who have problems being decent human beings.

            This is not to you Ilan, just a convenient middle place to comment….lol

          • Joe Builder

            Lets keep it real, Miney your the only person who has a hard on over Inworldz because they kicked you. And for anons of yours that’s widely whispered and known. Didn’t you mention your where going to leave opensims because of your mental condition? being you posted it a while back. What hurts people the most is the Truth, Some just cant handle the truth. Maybe you need to stop sucking up to people they really know who you are.

          • http://www.kitely.com Ilan Tochner

            :-)

          • Laurie Martinelli

            =((

          • Mary

            =)~

          • Laurie Martinelli

            Both my children have the challenges of Autism.
            Autism is a tragedy. As a disorder that robs my children of their lives and me of my children. It’s a disorder that must be properly diagnosed and treated not to be used as a tool to downgrade someone in a shameful manner to moderate social agendas to win an argument this is very sad.
            To make comments that he is mentally ill because he does not share your views is very unfortunate because your not a doctor or judge because you use it as a social weapon you convey to others its OK to make fun of the disabled its OK to make those with life challenges to be made an example to ridicule others.this is very unfortunate,
            while this is not your first remark on here that has tried to shame others by claiming they are mentally ill or suffer from schizophrenia because they refuse to accept your point of view.
            When you see them hurt, it hurts you. That’s why it’s personal to speak out against your comment,
            Please stop the cycle of discrimination minethere it starts with you.

            If anyone has any interests in the fight for equal rights for the disabled I encourage you to follow this link for my group NAMI Massachusetts /[email protected]
            http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=About_NAMI

          • Joe Builder

            She shows her true colors sadly

          • Jim

            Apologies for her actions just be aware many out here care enough to not cross that line into this kind of selfishness,
            Any business that uses someone like her for advertisement must suffer from the same issues as well.

          • Gordon

            You are a true figure of fun! Do you sometimes read the garbage that you post here?

          • Joe Builder

            Shes a real beaut

          • GoonLife

            Who are the copybotters these silent avengers often made out as public enemy here when we are the vast public period,

            Kinggoon Forum 29,579 Members who have joined in the last 4 years,

            Active Forum users 11,567 who have revisited our forum in the last 90 day’s,

            We are a big family > it’s all out of love,

            We have over 120,00 items. Skin Psd Files, Xml File’s,Oar Files,Terrain Files,Complete Tutorials for Opensim,Build Kit’s, Clothing,Shapes,Mesh Homes, Free Software plus caring people to help anyone new to become successful,

            Our own viewers including GankedLife, DarkDolphin with our top downloaded viewer DarkStorm by the Darkstorm viewer project team,

            Darkstorm offers all the rich features of the best 3rd party viewers plus a long history of innovative updates.

            NEW v2.8:

            - update repository new Firestorm 4.4.2.34167 (SSB support)

            - Darkstorm menu on Radar

            - some bugs fixed

            v2.7:

            - add VIP key for unlock features

            (DarkDolphin & DarkStorm uses same VIP key)

            - update repository new Firestorm 4.3.1.31155

            - shapes: supports for 142 params

            - export region: search object names

            - new Login Spoof floater

            - change #Darkstorm folder name

            - show idle time from singularity

            v2.6:

            - ADD: show uploader of textures & alert on snapshot

            - FIX: prevent deactivate import option

            - some fixes

            v2.5:

            - ADD: HPA export/import

            - ADD: real status online on profiles (requires recreate LSL Bridge)

            - FIX: names on import wearables

            - more fixes & changes

            v2.4:

            - KeyTool now supports wearables asset UUID

            - ADD: inventory MultiPerm

            - ADD: UUID Texture Organizer

            - ADD: Wearable Editor

            - ADD: Export/Import Linkset Phoenix

            Imports now supports multiple non linked selected items, or multiple non linked items in #ImportLink inventory folder

            v2.3:

            - Update Repository: Firestorm 4.3.0.29864

            - ADD: Phototools – DS Preferences (restart)

            - ADD: Qarl mesh deformer_0.3.2.patch

            v2.2:

            - FIX: preview animations

            - FIX: bulk upload fail & added bulk upload wearables

            - FIX: pie menus

            - FIX: DS Explore Textures crash on mesh

            - ADD: AvHud get UUIDs

            - ADD: texture picker – button invisible texture

            - ADD: DS preferences – choose JPG/TGA for textures at inventory SaveAs…

            - ADD: object explode & destroy objects

            - ADD: Obj Export (Wavefront)

            - UPDATE AO: AOs from UUID notecard saves in #Darkstorm folder **

            v2.1:

            - update to Firestorm 4.2.0.29658

            - compile with opensim support (tested & working)

            - Linux compiled on debian/gcc4.3 for compatibility (tested)

            - fixed: particle RIP, properties, export region, … And more bugs

            - more soon … Including Full .Dae Export with all rigging with textures intact

            Become one of our VIP Supporters then get complete access to our VIP section for the very best items, Get full use of Region Export ‘Take the entire Region in Seconds’ plus the ability to use HPA export/import

            Copybotting is not what it’s being branded here this is a fact many of our VIP’s are in fact some of the top builders>designers>well known people in secondlife people you would never think or suspect who create mesh>sculpties>textures, they all have different reason’s why so it’s not for me to explain but then it’s far from just a silent botter but a huge community,

            We are growning daily by the hundreds with everything a person needs to create a very attractive home in opensim with the tools to create any dream they wish,

            No politics here but setting the record strait with close to 6+ years servicing those seeking assistance in opensim and secondlife,

            Any questions then join our forum to talk further we always love a good laugh.

          • wolftimber

            There’s entire MALLS full of free everything, Linda Kellies’ entire productive output of many thousands of items from skins to clothes, avatars, furniture to houses and textures is all freely available to everyone, how many houses does one NEED on a sim that they need to buy one when there must be hundreds of them full perm for free by people lik Linda out there!

          • Joe Builder

            Yes many want the SL look and its sparse in opensims, So yes they go to SL steal like crazy skins and hairs you name it then distributed to everyone. There goes the neighborhood. Problem is I think grid owners encourage this behavior for content. I know a few already that do. Its all about quality not so much Opensim Creations or the Kitley Market, Quality is what drives them

          • wolftimber

            ” if I was a thief I wouldn’t bother with the small OpenSim grids at all
            – I’d go to the biggest grid of them all to steal content — Second
            Life.”

            True, and where things are sold, opensim is not Second Life, the laregst free open grids don’t even HAVE currency at all.

      • wolftimber

        “That is very dangerous to allow right now especially if you want professional creators on your grid.”

        Then stay in Second Life where everything is nice and secure with a lock and key, even your OWN stuff can’t be exported except item by item- no IARS or OARS, and if you build ANYTHING even using just one texture or component created by someone else (such as those free full perm megaprims) you cant even export your own build.
        When I think of how much time it took to copy over every prim one by one of builds I made in SL and wanted to keep- using those damn megaprims that prevented me from even exporting MY OWN builds I quickly soured on the walled garden business model.

  • Joe Builder

    Maria that Aviworld3D I suspect is Brazilian Grid being the residents there migrated over from AviWorlds. So seems one of the old residents put a small grid online and kept basically the same name as the one Alex had.

  • http://www.v-lifeonline.com/ Chrisx84

    Finally a place that i can call home and actually mean it. A grid by Canadians that is for everyone. Thank you so much for GCG Roddie. By the way this is Christina ;)

  • Kiki

    I recently checked out Virtual Highway grid, and I didn’t have to go far before I could see content of creators who do not give out license for their products, nor are they members of the grid. The grid owners may want to check on this because it is going to hurt your business if all your content is copy botted, I saw botanical gardens creations, in there, and Zen creations right at their welcome zone. Not to mention that, there was some issue with local chat talk, and the mentor manager, was a bit loud and creepy. Never talk on voice and think a new member can’t hear you. As a creator in other grids, I will not bring my items into your world. Sad that people can’t create their own products and instead have to steal from others.

    • Trixie Noel

      Hello Kiki,

      I Just wanted to let you know that moments after you made your observations about possible copy botting, I had informed both the grid founders and the object owner. As I knew they would, they took this issue very seriously and immediately began investigating. I thank you for highlighting this.

    • Tiffany Magics

      I do see that you ignored our response and our concern for your accusations, and the fact that we have gone as far as contacting Zensual to come and confirm. We do NOT take copybotting lightly, nor will the items stay on the grid if in fact they are. The creator of them bought the sculpt maps full perm in Inworldz and believed they were fine. She is as upset about this accusation as anyone else. She contacted Zensual to come and confirm or deny. The investigation is still in progress. I simply ask that you contact me, Tiffany Magic, or logger Sewell in world when and if you have a concern instead of bringing it here before you allow us the chance to look into it. If those statues were copybotted and illegal, and if the creator did not believe they were full perm, do you honestly think they would be displayed at our landing? As far as the reference to botanical, I have no idea what you are referring to as you did not speak to us about it when you were here. It amazes me that you would make the comments and accusations you made here without even allowing us a day or two to confirm or investigate what you said when you were here. It is a real shame.

      • Jim

        Some things to consider

        I stopped posting long ago becouse of the conversations or topics always leading back one way or another to Kitely,

        Kitelys people like minethere/danko/dot/gram all part of the danovan trust an old mist game cult that believes jesus will return as an avatar, they rule the sociel life in kitely if you speak up you will be in a world of hurt becouse you will be on the founders crap list,

        Go to kitelys mentors meetings then use a developers viewer half the people in the meeting have Ilan Tochners isp
        also one day his isp shows isreal the next day new york city is this out of country thing just a front to skirt the taxs in america?
        Before anyone dismisses this my viewer is very accurate because it was made by me as a former developer on the emerald viewer so he has alot of explaining to do

        Most times this whole forum looks like its made to tell any noob ‘hey Kitely its the only real option’ while this continues to hurt other grids,

        They have shilled and created drama for the last 2 years all across the metaverse pretending to be against kitely or for kitely all so kitelys founder can take the spotlight and pitch his sales pfft,

        If someone is starting lies in a forum against you then you always sould consider it could be possible part of minetheres grand drama so she can use your replys on G+ to tell everyone your bad people so her boss stays happy

        They cannot get inworldz to fall for it anymore maybe they want your grid to be the excuse, it is very possible you will end up in a posting death match with kitlys founder and he never loses he is always 100% everytime right pfft, thats my advice!

        • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

          lol…Hate to burst your bubble there, but Tiffany knows me well enough to know this is not my style at all.

          But, hey, knock your socks off, say whatever you want to, I can take it-))

          As to your other rubbish, I think it is a grand thing to have ppl come out for inwz such as this type of comment shows. It only helps everyone else to see such things, even Virtual Highway, I would imagine.

    • Arin

      o respond to Kiki. Zen Creations uses lots of full perm sculpt maps
      from several well known full perm creators who allow cross grid use
      which is provided in their TOS which is also located in their profiles.
      These ar facts I am stating unlike yourself. Zen Creations uses Meli,
      Flecha and others who openly allow cross grid use. So in return lots of
      people purchase the same maps to create new works. Not every designers
      uses 100 percent of self made materials. I admire those that have this
      ability:) I think here you made lots of mistakes with your approach in
      handling this matter.

      You should have contacted owners of grid and told them of what you
      thought was the problem, they are always online to help. If you your
      concerns were this strong you should have researched the facts first
      before making damaging remarks on someones site. Another thing for you
      to know for future rants is that some people get permissions others do
      not or cannot get to use materials on other grids. You do not know
      everything contrary to your belief. You say you are a creator so I am
      very surprised at your lack of knowledge on this.

      As for Virtual Highway they take these matters serious and do not
      tolerate such. IMHO sounds like you have a personal vendetta against
      someone at the grid. Further more I really think Virtual Highway will
      survive without your creations.

      Virtual Highway is a wonderful grid with fabulous owners and residents.
      A
      place where people focus on community and having a real good time So I
      take this personal for you to try and I say try to smear a grid that is
      working very hard to build up with this unfounded nonsense.

      Whats the name of your store I would love to see your creations.
      I am sending you a hug sounds like you need a little love in your life.

      • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

        Great answer! Too often people assume that everything in OpenSim is copybotted without checking.

        That’s why a grid owner should automatically take down content only when requested to by the content creator. Now, the creator might have made a mistake, as well, and forgot that they licensed it, or the content could just be a good imitation, not a copy, so there needs to be a process to reverse the takedown, as well.

        If the grid gets the heads up via any other channel — like someone walking past and thinking, “hmm, that seems suspicious!” or through a comment on some blog somewhere — they need to investigate first. That content could well be there legitimately.

  • Alex Ferraris

    I really am mad about this new ITALIAN grid or whatever it is….aviworld3d.com????? man where is the originality on this? These guys had to copy my domain name? Its too close for confort and I am publicly asking them to take that name out or else!

    • wolftimber

      Being “close” is not actionable, and griping about it here isn’t going to change anything anyway. Even the domain name aviworld3d.net is for sale, but then so would be aviworld.net .org. tv. me …. well you get the idea!

    • http://www.v-lifeonline.com/ Chrisx84

      hey you’re the one who screwed over all your residents. You should be thankful that someone revived the name and the grid even after what you did to them.

      • Alex Ferraris

        Hey first of all none of aviworlds residents ever paid a dime to play or have land. So no one got screwed over. They all brought in copy botted items also,
        The minute i asked them to pay something to help out aviworlds; they all left. So i was the one who got screwed over ok wise guy…I gave them free land and exceptional service!! All free! Thats what i did to them! U dont know what happened and write lies! I spent thousands of dollars NOT THE RESIDENTS YOU IDIOT!
        And if being almost the same name is not a conflict then i will create the domain name OSSECONDLIFE.COM ….,

        • http://www.v-lifeonline.com/ Chrisx84

          :O SERIOUSLY ALEX? All your residents have said that they were paying. Also alex im not the idiot, you are because you are very well known to be a liar around the opensim community. Even if you were giving land for free then your still a idiot to do so and only have yourself to blame for your downfall. Then to ask for money from them was a even dumber move. When someone think they are getting something for free, it usually means always free so i don’t blame them for leaving after you asked them to pay because that to me sounds more like a scam.

          By the way alex. You really crack me up laughing all the time :D how’s living in your car doing for you these days?

          • Alex Ferraris

            The residents did not soffer a thing. They all got free land and whatever inventory they had were all copy botted from SL. That was your accusation regarding the abuse and suffering of all aviworlds residents. I was the one taken for a ride , not them.
            Regarding me living in my car it served well for me because of my divorce. But Im in my own apartment now thanks very much for caring.

          • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

            I’m glad you got a place to live now Alex…I would suggest trying to ignore those provoking you, but I also know this is difficult to impossible to do sometimes.

            be well…good luck-))

    • http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/ Maria Korolov

      Please, please everybody — stop using “Avi” “Virtual” “Reality” or “Life” in your grid names! I’m currently tracking 783 current and former grids, and those names pop up WAY too much! After a point, it’s hard to tell these grids part!

      The are 14 grids that have some form of “Avatar” or “Avi” in them — Avatar Connection, Avatar Hangout, Avatar Realms, Avination, AVWorlds, AviWereld, AviWorlds, AVIlife, Avatar Classroom, Avatarland, AVWE, Avalonia Estate, Avatar Sex Grid, AviWorld3D,

      There are 50 grids with the word virtual in them! New Zealand Virtual World Grid – Auckland, Virtual France, Virtual Games 3D, Virtual Gaming World, Virtual Highway, Virtualife, Virtual RP, Virtual Worlds Consortium, Virtual Worlds Grid, VirtualLife, Rutgers University Virtual Worlds, New Zealand Virtual World Grid – Otago, University of Cincinnati OpenSim Virtual Campus Grid, Valhalla Virtual, A Virtual World, Virtual GLC, Virtual-EPI, VIBE: Virtual Islands for Biology Education, Virtual History, Virtual World Sim Grid, Virtualife, Virtual Realms Grid, Virtual Anonymous, Virtual Discovery Center, CSC9N5 Virtual World, Virtual Marin, Open Virtual Worlds, What Virtual World, Uzuri Virtual, Virtual Ryukyu, Williams Virtual World, Virtual Photography Gallery, Virtual Harmony, Virtual Worlds Radio, Scare Virtual Training Center, Virtual Reality, Virtual Life, Tu Lugar Virtual, Virtual Metu, Virtual3D Grid, Virtualgoo, JCU Virtual World, Virtual Clubbing Life, Virtual Builders, Virtual Earth Grid, Virtual Gay Kingdom, Virtual Theology University, Evans Virtual World, Virtual Club, Virtual Universe,

      There are or were 32 grids with the word “Life” in them: 2lifeGrid, iLifeGrid, My First Life, NexxtLife, Virtualife, VirtualLife, Your Alternative Life, eXtra Life, CloneLife, Simlife, My3dLife, linkinulife, Night4 Life, Global Citizen Life, Virtualife, ThunderLife, SimLife3D, AVIlife, Virtual Life, Concord Life, OurSimLife, 3rd Life Grid, Secondlife World, V Life Online, Surreal Life, Our SimLife, SecondLifeBook Grid, LifeStyle 3D, Virtual Clubbing Life, Snoodle Life, Majickal Life, German Life,

      There are 10 grid names with “meta” in them: Meta7, MetaGridNet, Metapocaplyse, MetaverseNexus, MetaverseSailing, Metaventura, Metaverse Concept, MetaCloud, Metaria, End of the Metaverse,

      97 have the word “world” in them! 9 more have “realm”! 48 have “land” or “lsland”!

      It’s like the early days of the web, where EVERY SINGLE DOMAIN had the word “online” or “web” in it. PLEASE STOP!

      If you want people to be able to find your grid, and tell other people about your grid, without confusing it with ten or 50 or 100 others — please choose a unique name!

      Name it after your favorite place. Your favorite river. Your last name. Your daughter. Your secret crush. Your childhood pet. The street you grew up on. Make up a word from scratch. Then Google it to see what comes up and pick the name that has the fewest results, so that you have a chance of being in the first page of listings when people search for you.

      • Alex Ferraris

        Exactly! Lets be original!

      • http://minethere.blogspot.com/2012/10/region-creations.html Minethere

        I always liked “Chrysalis”-))

      • IfTheShoeFits

        “There are 10 grid names with “meta” in them: Meta7, MetaGridNet,
        Metapocaplyse, MetaverseNexus, MetaverseSailing, Metaventura, Metaverse
        Concept, MetaCloud, Metaria, End of the Metaverse,”

        You forgot Metropolis Metaversum. Be fair now Maria – we know they are part of your grid clique who’s asses you like to kiss, but you are the one who brought up using those terms in the name of the grid.

        • Maria Korolov

          I have it listed as just “metropolis” in my database, so it didn’t come up in the search. But good eye!

      • Vanish

        The Cesspool

        Another Gother

        Hank’s Hankout

        The Chuckeree

        Forever Malone

        Simtopia

        Wesley’s Ward for Wayward Wanderers

        My New Place

        Hello! Hangout

        Merry Mornington

        Palmopeia

        The Carib’s Crib

        Sweet Gwendolyne’s (possibly taken; if so, use: Sweet Medeleine)

        The Gharisville Runaround

        Your Goal Grid

        The Gridderia

        JustStopHere

        Thank you, thank you. I’ll be here all week.

        • Vanish

          And just to be clear, I’ve already registered hypergridhumpingground.org. Don’t ask.

        • Hannah

          The Sandbox

          New world land

          The rez

          The Boardwalk

          The bored walk

          Rivendell

          Where the sour turns to sweet

          Ripples

          DIYGrid

          Utero (As in; “I’ll meet you in..”, ok, ok I’ll get my coat)

          • Vanish

            The Pleasantries

            Constant Hangover

            Archipalonia

            The Flat Sea Club

            The Mirror World

            Widivide

            The Garden Wall

            A Moon That’s Ever Full

            The Violet Cage