Kitely Market now delivers to the hypergrid

Kitely Market is out of private beta and is now delivering goods to any hypergrid-enabled grid.

By default, the Market offers a choice of Craft, GermanGrid, Littlefield, Metropolis, and OSgrid, the five most popular hypergrid-enabled grids according to the latest usage statistics.

Delivering goods to OSgrid is easy with Kitely Market.

Delivering goods to OSgrid is easy with Kitely Market.

Just make sure the items you’re buying have the “export” permission enabled, click on “Other Grid” in the “Deliver to:” section, type in the avatar name and choose the grid from the drop-down list.

But the site also offers an easy-to-use grid manager that allows any other hypergrid-enabled grid to be added, as long as you know its loginURI. Just click on the “Grid Manager” button to the right of the drop-down grid list.

Adding new grid to Kitely Market.

Adding new grid to Kitely Market.

Here’s a list of all currently active OpenSim grids and their loginURIs.

Once you add the grid, Kitely Market sends a notecard to your avatar to make sure that everything works.

If your private grid does not have hypergrid enabled, you may be able to turn hypergrid connectivity on temporarily while you shop, and then turn it off again when you’re done.

In my case, the system could not verify delivery to Hyperica, and after checking with my hosting provider it turned out that there was a problem with the way my “Suitcase” folder was set up. Deleting the folder and restarting the viewer solved the problem for me, and Kitely will be adding a fix for this problem in the next upgrade of their system.

Delivering to OSgrid was very simple, however. Kitely sent an instant message to my OSgrid avatar with a link to click. The link took me to a confirmation page, and seconds later the purchase was in my inventory.

Confirmation message from Kitely.

Confirmation message from Kitely.

It came in a box, so I teleported over to Sandbox Plaza to unpack it. Inside the box was another box, and the new outfit I bought was inside that box.

The permissions were set correctly as well — specifically, no transfer. Yes, if I was criminally inclined, I could take this to a region I owned where I could give myself God powers, then reset all the permissions and do anything I wanted with that item. However, I’m not criminally inclined — which is why I prefer to buy the item legally. And if I was, I wouldn’t have bothered to pay for it in the first place. From what I hear, the pirates go directly to Second Life and copybot whatever they want without paying a cent.

Kitely delivery to OSgrid

That’s my avatar, wearing the new outfit.

Now that my Hyperica avatar is configured properly, and the grid added to Kitely Market’s grid manager, I plan to buy some plants from Heart Botanicals. They took a big risk coming to OpenSim, and deserve to be rewarded. Plus, other merchants might follow suit if they do well.

Heart Botanicals on Kitely Market sells in US dollars with permission to export to other grids.

Heart Botanicals on Kitely Market sells in US dollars with permission to export to other grids.

For me, the best part about purchasing on Kitely Market is knowing that everything I get is fully licensed and legal. Kitely Market is easy for creators to scan to check for pirated content, and Kitely has policies in place to deter fraud. For example, cash payouts have a built-in delay, so crooks can’t make off with their ill-gotten gains.

Kitely Market is still short of things I need. So if you’re a creator, I’m looking for office buildings and furnishings, and business-appropriate outfits. In particular, I could use some nice jackets.

Quick turnaround

Kitely only began testing this new feature two weeks ago, and had to contribute code patches to OpenSim to ensure that everything works correctly.

The fast turnaround is relatively unusual for the two-man company, which usually takes it time with new feature rollouts.

Ilan Tochner

Ilan Tochner

“We knew the system worked well for people running the latest OpenSim release before we started the beta so there weren’t a lot of problems we needed to fix in those scenarios,” Kitely CEO Ilan Tochner told Hypergrid Business. “The majority of the remaining problems that were reported during the beta were with deliveries to avatars on regions that were running old OpenSim versions that predate various bug fixes that exist in the official OpenSim 0.7.6 release. We found manual workarounds people could use in cases where they couldn’t upgrade the OpenSim version their region is running so we decided not to delay rollout until everyone was running the latest official OpenSim release.”

Meanwhile, Oren Hurvitz, the company’s vice president of research and development, has been invited to join the OpenSim core group, which will make it even easier for Kitely to donate code to the community.

“We intend to spend some time adding various features to OpenSim that will help further improve hypergrid delivery of items to people’s avatars,” said Tochner. “These new features should be included in future OpenSim releases.”

Now, the company will work on enabling hypergrid access for the grid itself.

“This involves more than just enabling hypergrid access in the grid configuration file; there are several aspects of how hypergrid works that we believe are important to improve in order to make hypergrid access to and from Kitely more enjoyable,” he said.

A disruptive influence

Kitely Market may well prove to be a disruptive influence to OpenSim, putting into doubt the business models of second-tier commercial grids.

Currently, commercial grids distinguish themselves by offering the illusion of security to in-grid merchants. Although there is currently no way for any grid, including Second Life, to protect itself as copybotters, closed commercial grids do make it difficult for legitimate, law-abiding users to make personal backups of their purchases, or export entire regions or inventories, or take their content to other grids via hypergrid teleport. This leads to more merchants joining the grid, which, in turn, attracts customers looking for high-end content.

Second-tier commercial grids will no longer be able to attract users on the basis of content, however, since it will be difficult for them to match Kitely Market’s selection right off the bat. Plus, maintaining virtual stores in different grids is time-consuming and difficult, as is monitoring grids for copyright violations. By selling via the Kitely Market, instead, creators have a single place from which they can sell to hundreds of grids — including the lucrative business and school grid market.

When hypergrid access is enabled, we’ll see another kind of disruption take place, as well.

Currently, most OpenSim users either pay for regions that are up all the time, including when they’re completely empty. The only exception are Kitely users, who have an option for time-based billing under which users can get unlimited regions for $1 each, and then pay only when they visit those regions. For creators looking for a lot of land to play with, Kitely’s pricing model can’t be beat — but its community size does leave something to be desired.

With hypergrid access, you can rent regions on Kitely for your own use, and teleport out to other grids to meet with friends, attend events, visit freebie shops, participate in role playing games, and so on.

Allowing public access will cost extra, but can be turned on or off at will, on a region-by-region basis. For example, an unlimited access 15,000-prim region that is open to the public and can hold up to 10 avatars starts at around $15 a month. More information about Kitely pricing is here. Personally, I’m still confused by it. Hopefully, the confusion will ease over time as people experiment with different purchase options — or as Kitely revamps its pricing structure again.

maria@hypergridbusiness.com'

Maria Korolov

Maria Korolov is editor and publisher of Hypergrid Business. She has been a journalist for more than twenty years and has worked for the Chicago Tribune, Reuters, and Computerworld and has reported from over a dozen countries, including Russia and China.

  • Quick stats update: as of mid-March, I have 131 active, hypergrid-enabled grids in my database. (And 64 for which the hypergrid status is unknown).

    And there were 8,583 active users on those 131 grids. At least, on 111 of them that reported their data.

    This does NOT include private school, company, non-profit or personal grids, whose owners can turn hypergrid on and off at any time.

  • I don’t view it as disruptive [but I do understand you using that word], but as innovative and forward-thinking.

    The hypergated Meta DOES need this and since it is voluntary, then all the good, to my thinking.

    It is possible, as some have opined that the free Meta may take a hit, but only time will tell if this is true, or how much, if at all.

    I personally see a nice blending of things and wish Kitely the best in this.

    The old sl clone business models need to step forward or simply be satisfied with being niche grids for some folks. I don’t think that will last, as-is, for to much longer though and I look forward to this year being very interesting in VR.

    They do need to enable hypergating though, ASAP…but I expect the marketing idea would to let this simmer a bit, deal with the issues, then move on to that.

    Once they enable HG I think that due to their business model and land pricing they should expand geometrically, and deservedly so.

  • AviWorlds

    You cant say really closed commercial grids being safer is an illusion. You are missing a few pointers as to why they are safer than HG enabled grids.

    First a HG enabled grid cannot control a user coming from another grid.
    Second the owner of the HG enabled grid can make OAR files which will copy everything on tbat particulat region and when he or she loads the oar into another region all objects are in the grids owner name as the creator.
    Third Yes no grid can stop copy bot activity but at least being that the grid is a closed grid ; it can police better and even catch the perpetrators alot easier than in a HG enabled environment.

    Face it; it is hard to stop copy bot activity imagine now where this PRODUCT is sold and shipped right to a sea of no mans land…
    Look I wish Ilan luck and hopefully he can change the creators minds about them allowing their products into this market but Ilan cannot change what I described above.
    Another question I have since you mentioned it is about kitelys current region totals. I understand each new user regardless if he or she uses it; they get a free region just for signing up. Then they get a few credits to use the free region and when it expires the user needs to buy more credits.
    My question is since kitely shows a total of almost 6000 regions; are these regions mostly being used?
    Or they are mostly regions that people registered on and got them for free?
    Should these regions count if every new user gets a region used or not used?
    Almost 6000 regions and only 600 unique users? Imay be wrong here perhaps Ilan can explain. Are these free regions that people get automaticaly counted in kitelys region total stat?

    • As far as I’m aware, commercial grids blog access to unwanted users by blocking their IP addresses. Hypergrid-enabled grids do the same thing.

      OAR files are a convenient way to move a lot of content from one grid to another. I can see why commercial grid owners don’t want this to happen.

      However, if I’m a merchant, does it really matter to me whether someone stole my content via OAR file, or via copybot? Either way, they can change the owner and permissions to anything they want. At least, with the OAR file, they’ll have paid for my content to start with.

      In any case, it will be easy enough to see how it works out. We just have to wait a little bit and see whether content creators use the Kitely Market or not, and whether they make money on it or not.

      • AviWorlds

        It does matter Maria because the more ways you give a perpetrator to copy your creation less safe it is. That is why SL, AviWorlds and other closed commercial grid do not give the player the ability to create OAR files. The players can save their creations but thats it. Also once this product is out there there will be no control as to what people will do to it.
        It is alot easier to find a perpetrator in a closed commercial grid than in over maybe 600 Grids out there?
        I again repeat here; no grid is safe regarding copy bot activity. Im talking about the afterwards and what can be done to minimize this activity.

        • My point is that pirates already have a free, easy way to steal content, which they use to steal content in bulk from closed, commercial grids.

          An OAR file export is both less convenient — and less expensive — for hackers.

          OAR file exports benefit legitimate users, who want to have personal backups of their builds, or be able to take their builds from one grid to another. They do not benefit pirates.

          OAR exports do, however, allow users to more easily move from one grid to another, reducing the “lock in” of commercial grids. That — potentially — hurts grid owners, so commercial grids have this function turned off.

          Telling customers that they can’t get an OAR for “security reasons” is like telling customers that the price increase they were just handed was to “simplify the price structure” or to “give them more pricing options.”

          Especially since OAR export functionality ALREADY comes with the ability to filter the export, so that creators who don’t want their stuff to be exported can simply do that. Kitely, for example, filters all its OAR exports so that only content where the original creators allowed the export will be exported. (Or your own creations, of course.) For example, grids can set it so that only full-perm content (or your own creations) can be exported, and merchants who don’t wan’t their stuff to leave can simply set any one of their perms to “no.”

          • AviWorlds

            OK WHAT ABOUT GODS POWER. once again HG enabled environment creates a chance, a chance that people may spread a product around alot easier by creating an OAR file from the region where the product is rezzed at.
            Lets say joana buys a product in kitely market and then she has a friend that wants that same product. Joana tells her friend dont buy that product it is expensive let me make you a copy of it since I HAVE GODS POWER in my grid.
            I dont think it is safer at all…but who knows some creators like you say may not care if their items are spread out into many different grids all over the world.

          • Life is about risk, some people go overboard in risk assessment and, for example, buy more insurance than they need.

            Proper and well considered risk assessments involve considering all the risks you can imagine, and deciding what is worth the time, efforts, and expense, to deal with.

            I agree with what Maria is saying, in that, “Telling customers that they can’t get an OAR for “security reasons” is like telling customers that the price increase they were just handed was to “simplify the price structure” or to “give them more pricing options.”

            Especially since OAR export functionality ALREADY comes with the ability to filter the export, so that creators who don’t want their stuff to be exported can simply do that. Kitely, for example, filters all its OAR exports so that only content where the original creators allowed the export will be exported. (Or your own creations, of course.) For example, grids can set it so that only full-perm content (or your own creations) can be exported, and merchants who don’t wan’t their stuff to leave can simply set any one of their perms to “no.” which has been stated in other ways by Ilan.

            Rather than do just another closed concept and all the competitiveness, mostly negative, that comes with that…I would embrace the tools available, spread good vibes, and have a good time.

            This isn’t really to you Alex, just answering in the thought process going on, my own “take” on it all.

            I want to see the HG continue to prosper, freedom to ring true, and see the negativity involved with the lack of transparency I know comes from most of the sl clone grids, go away.

          • So Joanna paid for the product, and her friend wants to get it for free. The friend hunts around to see who has the product, and is willing to give away a copy, and finds Joanna, and talks her into violating the content license.

            I don’t think that this friend was a potential customer of mine in the first place. Otherwise, they’d skip the uncomfortable conversation and just buy it at the market.

            It’s the same thing that happened with MP3s. Back when you couldn’t get them legally, you’d have to ask a friend to rip a CD for you. Today, you can ask a friend to just email you their MP3 file — so easier for everyone, yes. But is telling your friend that you’re a crook worth the 99 cent savings? Just getting the song on iTunes is so much easier.

            But, in any case, if a creator is worried about this, they don’t have to make content available on the hypergrid, or in open grids, or in any other grid. They can just keep the content to themselves and not worry about loss at all.

            Making money requires taking a step, taking the risk. Someone could copybot it. Or they can just copy it the old-fashioned way — look at it, see how it works, and build their own version.

            One thing that God Powers give you that copybot doesn’t (as far as I know, at least), is the scripts. It’s like using Javascript on a website instead of using PHP on the server side.

            So if you have very fancy scripts on a very popular product you can make it harder for would-be pirates and knock-off artists by not distributing it to open grids.

            Or you could simply move the scripts server-side, and not worry about it.

        • Vanish

          You seem to harbour the belief that everyone who copies something is a “perpetrator”. Do you ever consider that the vast majority of users who take advantage of OARs actually have the full right to back up their own items. With export perms even more so now than before.

          • AviWorlds

            When I say perpetrators I mean the ones who conduct illegal copy bot activity. I dont harbour nothing. You should stop harbouring that Im harbouring that idea.

          • Vanish

            Well, then if we agree that most people use backups legally, why don’t
            you let them do that? Just because a few people might abuse that
            functionality?

    • With our on-demand provisioning system it’s very common for people to create a region, play with it for a while, then delete it. We don’t count all those deleted regions, we count just the regions that people can visit in our grid, which is exactly what other grids do (or should do) as well.

      You don’t ask how many people visit each SL region before you count it, you just count the number of regions that are available for people to enter. Same goes for other grids: there are regions that see a lot of use and ones that hardly see any visitors. The fact that most grids need to waste energy hosting unused regions while Kitely sends those regions to storage until someone actually tries to enter them doesn’t change how those regions should be counted.

      • AviWorlds

        Ok so you agree with me that most of these regions are in fact sleeping. Not being used and in a frozen estate waiting for their owners who reg istered and got them automatically to one day use them.ok thanks Ilan.
        I will do the same now. Every user will receive a region but if yhey dont pay me they will remain in a dormant state but they will be counted in my total region stat amounts. And I want to see what people will say if thats correct or not.

        • Regions aren’t created automatically when people create a new Kitely account. They are only created if the user goes to their My Worlds page and selects to create a new world (most people who sign up never do this).

          As people can maintain a 100,000 prim region in Kitely for free by limiting access to it to just Premium Account users, most of the regions in Kitely are accessible to Premium Account users. There are also quite a few regions that world managers pay for which are accessible to Regular Account users as well. Saying the regions are waiting just for the person who created them is therefore incorrect.

          As those unpaid for regions can still be visited by Premium Account users at any time (and at no cost to the world manager) it is in no way equivalent to you creating a region and keeping it dormant until the world manager pays you.

          • lmpierce

            Just for clarification, can it be thought of this way: The number of regions associated with a grid is the number of regions a visitor could choose to visit, whether that region is already up and running, or whether that region must be started up because that is the mechanism by which the regions become up and running. On the other hand, regions in storage (by storage, I mean truly inactive because an account is closed or frozen) and therefore not available to any visitors would not be counted.

            The question I have is whether it seems appropriate to aggregate into the count of regions those regions for which only the owner has access. (But of course, with a simply change in a single parameter, such a world can be made open to visitors, so the numbers could be constantly changing.)

            From the grid owner’s perspective, every region should be counted because it is a source of income or not. But from an outside perspective, the 100 or 1000 (or any number) regions no one but the owner can visit are as good as non-existent.

          • Lawrence — I don’t think you can calculate it that way. For example, on *any* grid out there, I can set my region’s access controls so that only I can visit. Does that mean that we shouldn’t be counting that region on that grid?

            Unless a region is in cold storage, any region that someone could teleport to and visit must be counted as a live region on a grid.

            Especially since Kitely’s startup times are getting shorter and shorter. Pretty soon, it will be shorter than the time it takes to do the teleport itself.

            There is no real reason, in fact, for any grid to keep regions running when they’re not being used. As the technology improves, I have a feeling that more and more grids will switch to an on-demand model for their regions, especially low-use residential ones.

          • lmpierce

            Hi Maria,

            Well, yes, you have echoed my question in your first statement. For example, I have one region on Kitely anyone can visit and five regions on Kitely no one can visit. If I am Kitely’s only subscriber, is it more accurate to say Kitely has one region or six? From the point of view of visitors, it seems more accurate to say Kitely has one region. However, I pay for six regions, so Kitely calculates that they have six regions of business. If Kitely says they have six regions and visitors can only access one, the larger region count may seem misleading. It depends on what we think region counts are meant to convey – places to visit, vitality of a grid, how large is the metaverse and so on.

            Ilan,

            I think you have indicated an important consideration. Whatever the metric for counting regions, it has to be applied the same way across all grids. Also, as a practical consideration, it may be that the number of private regions not open for visitors is actually so small that it is not a significant issue. Still, sometimes when I see region numbers, I wonder how those break down into more meaningful categories, again, totally dependent on what one is looking for in the numbers.

          • Even a region that may be open to groups of people, for example one belonging to a school, may be closed to most visitors to the grid. The value of regions for people visiting a grid is therefor highly dependent on who those people are and what those regions are intended for.

            The way I view region counts is as an approximation tool for how much revenue the grid has (once the grid’s hosting prices are known).

          • Yes, that would be a good way of thinking about it.

            There are many grids that have private estates that only a few people can visit. Some grids also have ban lines in their mainland that prevent people from visiting all the available regions. Deciding not to count those private regions (or collection of parcels that add up to many regions in size) would require better reporting tools that are not available to everyone. As most grids will therefor continue to report total number of regions it seems fair that we do the same.

          • KeithSelmes

            “whether it seems appropriate to aggregate into the count of regions those regions for which only the owner has access”

            To me it would be.
            If you were writing an internet travel guide, then no, only worlds open to visitors would be relevant.
            And if it was a metaverse shopping guide, only those with goods for sale or freebies.
            But if it was any kind of business or education article, the private worlds would likely be the most interesting, even if it’s just the raw numbers. But region counting is only a very rough guide.

            For example, if I have a Kitely world allowing only access by myself, I might use it alone, or I might use it demonstrating to an individual friend, colleague, or business prospect .
            Or I might be in a university lecture theatre with my Kitely world up on the big screen, and 150 post grad professional people in front of me.
            You just can’t tell.

            It would be really interesting to see a detailed study on how regions are used, and in what numbers, but I think that would not be a project to be undertaken lightly.

        • Joe Builder

          Osgrid has a similar way of counting regions, But when they do a clean up you bet its getting cleaned up. If I myself have regions I do not visit they do get deleted (purged) by Osgrid. Now I have a region also in Kitely, I haven’t been there in many mango seasons and Its still there. So seems its being counted. Maybe Kitley should follow the ways of other grids and delete what’s not used say in a 3 month period of a individual not logging in. I bet the region numbers would drop to match his online number as well.

          • OSgrid doesn’t clear out empty regions that nobody visits. OSgrid clears out map allocations where people once had a region, but then took it offline, and never brought it back up again.

            OSgrid keeps those map tiles reserved because many regions are hosted at home, on computers that get turned off. You don’t want to turn your computer back up, try to reconnect your region, and discover that your primo map spot has been taken by someone else while your computer was turned off because the cat stepped on the power button.

            There are plenty of regions — on all grids — that nobody ever visits that stay on the map and are counted as part of the grid. And there are plenty of regions that are restricted in access, so that most people can’t just stop in. They’re still counted.

            And, of course, all those free, home-based regions on open grids that are offline half the time.

            At least with the Kitely on-demand regions, someone is paying for them to stay active.

            But, at the end of the day, it’s a moot point because nobody is counting regions based on the number and diversity of visitors.

            And, over time, it will probably become a non-issue. After all, how many people care about the number of pages on a website?

          • Joe Builder

            I have no clue what you just said, I had my regions removed on a clean up. Was a few regions I haven’t visited, So if a individual don’t log in for some time there considered dead regions and get deleted.

          • You’re saying that OSgrid removed your regions, even though they were online, simply because you hadn’t visited them in a while?

            Or had you taken your regions offline, and OSgrid caught them in the cleanup last month?

          • Joe Builder

            If your not online your things get removed its how it is, As I one time I spoke with a administrator and said I like a certain name for my land but another uses it, They got back with me and said the owner hasn’t been online in some time. 5 minutes later the name was mine, They deleted the existing regions that had the name I wanted.

          • Right. A region isn’t removed from the grid just because nobody visits it. A region is removed once its offline and completely for a certain amount of time.

            Kitely’s on-demand regions are always available. Now, if you download your Kitely region as an OAR and delete it from the Kitely grid, then it’s completely unavailable. You’d have to upload it again before anyone can visit it.

            That’s what I mean by “cold storage.”

          • Joe Builder

            No, That means the way you count regions in Kitley is flawed you not giving the actual amount. As again I have a region in Kitley I haven’t been there in 3 years so do we count that?

          • As people can teleport into that region and be inworld in less time than it takes to log into some regions on other grids I think the answer is yes, you should count them as being on Kitely. The fact that you haven’t visited that region for a while has no effect on whether that region is available for people to visit it just as easily as they can visit regions that are always on.

          • AviWorlds

            Well then I call for a full review of your region counts. It is not fair for us who always keep our regions up and running to then be on the same list with a grid that is keeping a region down, inactive for more than 3 years and calling it active.
            It is not a fair comparison. Active to me is when the region is up and rumning. Kitelys system is not a fair system to compare the other grids with. Kiyely should be taken off yhe lists because it uses a different way of ACTIVE regions. Active is active.
            Ilan you cant say it is fair for us the other grids that keep all our regions active and not dotmant for 3 years to be on the same stat list. And another thing almost 6000 regions and only 600 unique users? AviWorlds has almost 400 unique users now and 117 regions. And I bet you any money my regions are there with people on them not dormant in some sort of cold storage. And it rezzes faster than your dormant regions because Aviworlds regions are there ACTIVE!

          • As a user, Kitely’s active regions act just like active regions on any other grid. It’s not my fault that they found a cheaper way to do it than grids using an always-on architecture.

            And there is no reason why other grids aren’t taking advantage of on-demand cloud hosting, other than that it’s difficult to set up.

            It might not be fair to the grids with more expensive platforms, but that’s life.

            From a user perspective, the advantages of having always-on regions are small and shrinking all the time.

          • AviWorlds

            Im sorry but in real life active is when its active. You are telling me that my PC when its turned off in my home is still ON. Doesnt make sense.
            Im going to create a system similar to kitelys then. Every new user will get a region and it will remain dormant until he or she uses it and pays for it. I will want to see them counyed ok. Anothet thing is that the Kitelys on demand regions in order to become active need to be paid for. This means that these regions are not even paid for. They are there in limbo waiting for payments and againey are not active and since payment was not made that right there tells you theres no contract on them.Should not be counted.

          • An important part about commenting about Kitely is understanding how it actually works first. All Kitely worlds are accessible to all Premium Account users by default, unless the world manager disables their access.

            You can have a free Kitely Metered World, never so much as give us your billing information and it would still be accessible to all Premium Account users whenever they teleport into it without you or them paying anything extra for it. This statement is true for the thousands of Metered Worlds on Kitely, worlds such as your own for which you, the world manager, don’t pay us.

            The only equivalent in your always-on setup is for you to actually keep these regions running and allow some of your customers to enter them without charging the world manager anything.

          • I have a feeling we’re talking at cross-purposes here. But if you guys set up a system where regions are loaded up on the fly, when a user teleports in — then sure, I’ll count them as active as well.

            I guess if a grid wanted to game this system, they could. For example, they could put up a 1,000 empty regions, and when I try to teleport in, just tell me that I don’t have permission to enter those regions — no way for me to know whether those regions are actually there or not!

            But an easier way to do is just lie on your stats. Or create a bunch of empty landscaping regions with zero prim counts.

            There are lots of ways for grids to cheat.

            Personally, I don’t think Kitely is cheating, which is why I’m counting all their on-demand regions.

            Someone else might decide differently, and do their own stats report using different metrics. That’s fine, and I’ll be happy to link to it.

          • AviWorlds

            The regions that are dormant in kitelys grid and have not been paid for you will not be able to get into it. Let me know if I am wrong but that is what I think it is.
            And if a region has not been paid for its usage it means it has no contract. The region should be cleaned up from the system after so much time. Like I said above.
            I have a car and its parked. Not running. There is a traffic report about a traffic jam in my town. Should my car that I can START anytime I want be also COUNTED in the traffic jam in my town? Meaning my car is not on the road but it can be anytime like Kitelys dormant regions right?

          • Kitely startup times have improved significantly since you’ve last visited our grid. Most Kitely worlds start in less than 30 seconds from the time someone tries to enter them and even complex megaregion worlds with a lot of prims and scripts often start in less than a minute. In most cases a person trying to login to an offline world will only spend a few second in a Kitely Transfer Station before being teleported to their destination.

          • lmpierce

            I think it needs to be said that “active” has a multi-faceted meaning here. Active can mean running in the moment. That is a kind of visceral, physical (electronic) sense of active. But active can also mean, used a great deal – that is, people always coming and going, available when desired and so on. That would be a more utilitarian way to think of it, and to my thinking, far more meaningful. If a world is running 24/7 but no one ever visits, there can be no meaning to say it is active, other than to say it is “currently running”.

          • AviWorlds

            The whole point here is that KITELY is being included in a list and compared to grids that KEEP their regions up and running 24/7. These regions are either PAID FOR or are running in a persons PC. OSGRID cleans the ones that have not been in usage.
            I think the word here should be USAGE. IF the reagions are not being used and are OFF THE AIR. They should not be counted period. Specially when its needed a payment for these regions to be used again. A contract agreement. For me it is the same thing as if you told me my car which is parked on the side walk is actually running and it should be counted in the TRAFFIC report as one of the cars on the road.

          • lmpierce

            However, from a functional point of view, Kitely regions are just as active as regions that do not “turn off”, because they offer all of the same utility – they simply implement the entrance into the world through an alternative mechanism. For example, the grocery stores in my area have installed sensors in the frozen foods sections. When I approach, the lights illuminate the products, when I walk away they go off. Now if someone were to say, “The products are not constantly lit and should not be counted as having lights”, I would disagree. The lights are always on whenever a person is near, and that’s the only time it’s meaningful for them to be on. Obviously the food doesn’t benefit from being lit at any other time.

            Kitely worlds are there just like any other worlds, but only when people actually use them. This efficiency in no way negates their status as active.

          • Joe Builder

            There is something real fishy here, I suspect the actual regions in Kitely is close to the amount of there active users. Its extremely questionable and for that myself and many others holds stats as a farce at best.

          • lmpierce

            I see the stats we have as numeric markers that indicate areas of general growth or contraction. Kitely, like other grids, reports regions, but since Kitely worlds can include up to 16 regions each, there are bound to be more regions than users, (as well as more than one world per Kitely user).

            Currently, as a ‘moderate’ rated user, I see about 1000 public Kitely worlds in their directory, and within the last month there were 629 active users (some worlds aren’t showing to me because they require a different maturity rating to be seen in the list).

            So in a sense, there is currently a very loose correspondence between users and worlds, but that is coincidental. As noted above, a world can be made of up to 16 regions. If those 1000 worlds each had 16 regions, the region count on Kitely would be at least 16,000. However, they only claim 5655 regions at this time, which corresponds to a more believable scenario that many worlds are smaller than 16 regions.

            But another factor is that one user can have many regions in worlds that are not made public. In my case, I have one public world and four that only I can access (therefore, they do not show up in the public directory, but for my purposes, all are active). And in those four worlds, I’m using seven regions, because one of the worlds is a megaregion made of four regions. I have found that many Kitely users have such private worlds. So I do not doubt the Kitely numbers at all, as they seem entirely plausible and realistic.

          • lmpierce

            As it stands, many 24/7 regions are also not used for extended periods of time. So, in effect, they are being just as unused as a Kitely world that is not running at the moment. If a region is not being used but is loaded into a computer’s RAM, there is no more ‘usage’ going on than a region that is also not being used, but is also not loaded into a computer’s RAM during those times.

            I also don’t think OFF THE AIR is applicable to Kitely worlds. When I tune in to a television channel that is OFF THE AIR, there is nothing I can do to overcome that and see a program – the channel is completely unavailable. On the other hand, Kitely worlds are always available, whether they are already running or not. The short delay to launch the world is a technical artifact, like waiting for the signal locks on a GPS system. I don’t consider the GPS network to be any less active or useful because it takes a full 1-3 minutes for access. Momentarily inconvenient if I feel impatient, maybe, but no less robust in its utility and status.

            Maybe if we could magically know how worlds are used in more detail, we could differentiate kinds of use, and draw more accurate conclusions about participation and value. However, in past considerations of acquiring such information, privacy concerns have emerged which take precedence over specific knowledge of activities, so in some ways, our imperfect metrics and definitions represent our choice to leave value judgements up to each participant in their own unique terms.

          • KeithSelmes

            “in real life”, we count empty houses as part of the housing stock, and if I go away for six months, I expect my home to still be there when I get back – I don’t expect it will have been demolished because it appeared I wasn’t using it.

          • AviWorlds

            Well your empty house theory is not the same thing. Your house you said is not being used is at least being paid taxes on and keeping it available when you want to use it. Im talking about regions in kitely that havent been PAID and because they are paid on demand kitely is keeping them in their total regions stat along with regions that are still active.
            That is not fair because kitely should have a policy in place that would delete that inactive region from their total list if the region hasnt been used for a certain amount of time.
            I give you another theory or example. I have a car and its turned off. There is a traffic report on the news about a traffic jam. Is my car part of that list? Should it be included in the total of cars on the road that day?

            Bottom line is this; you can see it for yourself that kitelys total region count is almost 6000 regions and it only has about 600 unique users for the past 30 days.
            What does that tell you?
            A region that hasnt been used in kitely for more than 3 months should be deleted. Thats. The fair way.

          • If Kitely can afford to keep the regions active for people, more power to them. Eventually, the costs might get too high and they might scale back. Or Amazon might keep dropping its prices and Kitely will offer even more free land. Who knows.

            Instead of complaining about it, other grids should look at ways to be more competitive. For example, Kitely is pretty weak when it comes to in-world community, most relying on in-world volunteers to carry the ball. They still don’t have an events calendar on their website (you have to really hunt to find out what’s going on in the grid.) Other grids should be doing more to promote their live music venues, their parties, their building classes — all the good stuff that they do.

          • Joe Builder

            I suspect you post stats by using the honor system, I mean what a grid sends you is suppose to be legit. As been proven here in this thread Kitely sends you there overall dead or alive. There is no honor in that. May want to reconsider next stat posting whats fair to other grids.

          • Joe Builder

            The way regions are counted is FLAWED if Kitley is allowed to count regions that are not ever used and post them in stats. As if they have no other way to post actual numbers then they need not submit any numbers at all. Fair is Fair

          • AviWorlds

            If you are paying the taxes on the house and maintaining it yes it will not be demolished. But leave it for 3 years and dont pay taxes on it. You will see what happens to your house.
            And thats what I talking about here. Kiyely should be fair and put in place a policy that if a region hasnt been active for more than 3 months it gets purged from their total count and system.
            Right now they are just letting them stay counted even if it hasnt been used for over 3 years! No one paid for, no one used it. And that is my region. I havent been there for over 3 years and the region hasnt been paid for and it is being counted in kitelys total.
            My suggestion is that in order for kitely to qualify to be in the next stats report it must put a region purge policy in place that if a region is no longer visited for more than 3 months it gets purged from kitelys totals and system.
            AviWorlds only counts regions that are paid and active and all self hosted regions tjat werent visited for longer than 7 days were purged.
            Be fair Ilan, I calling on you to do the right thing. Almost 6000 regions with a very low 600 uniqur users for the past 30 days says for itself kitely is not deleting regions no longer used.

          • Frankly, all this regions numbers talk only serves to reinforce, to me anyways, that the non HG concepts and HG enabled concepts need to be separated for reporting purposes.

            Once someone or a grid joins the greater Meta then they can be welcomed in with open arms, otherwise the paradigm is so different comparing them by way of any stats is pretty much pointless.

            Not that I think the topic is important either as all these numbers are padded in one way or another for all sorts of reasons, not all being negative ones, but certainly some are.

            In any case, I thought this article was about Kitely’s cool system of content delivery to the HG…

          • lmpierce

            Hi Minethere,

            Thanks for the reminder about the core article and Kitely’s evolving service.

          • People tend to get lost in the forest for all the trees…lol

          • Joe Builder

            That’s like saying there is no reason for any grid to remove regions and count them all. and refer to the dead land as in “Cold Storage” hehe see how funny that sounds. So I suspect Osgrid may of had 50,000 regions

          • Grids can decide whether or not they wish to remove regions that people can visit but don’t. Counting the regions that people can visit is another matter.

            OSgrid counts the regions that people set up and OSgrid detects are still available for teleport, it deletes the regions that are not available to teleport. We do the same, we count the regions that people can teleport into without delay and with no extra work required on their part. We don’t count the regions people deleted (regardless of whether or not they exported them to OAR fies first).

          • AviWorlds

            it is interesting what you say about COLD STORAGE. AviWorlds was in cold storage for 2 months while I was putting my life back together. I did not see any of my regions that were in cold storage being counted. I still have about 50 regions in cold storage righ now does that mean they should count in my stats? AviWorlds was not counted in the stats and we had 279 regions in cold storage.

          • Exactly. I would not count regions that were in cold storage as part of a grid’s totals. For example, I have a bunch of regions on my computer — stored in the form of both OpenSim databases and as OAR files — that haven’t been up on a grid in years. Nobody counts those, nor should they.

            Kitely’s on-demand regions are more like in “warm storage” — accessible anytime someone decides to teleport in. From a user perspective, once those regions boot up fast enough, there will be discernable difference between them and always-on regions.

            It’s only important now because we have so few metrics for grids.

            I’ve love to see Alexa-style traffic rankings for grids, instead, and Google-style relevancy rankings.

          • AviWorlds

            So cold storage is not accepted correct? Is that what you are saying then?
            but still if you have a region PUT AWAY somewhere and its not active for so many years should not be counted as ACTIVE. I will not accept that and I demand a review of the stats for all these years. A full report of all the regions ACTIVE not dormant, not in cold storage not in computer…A region should only be counted if it is being USED.
            Period…there is not another way around it. it is what it is. A region should only be counted if it is being used. If kitely has a different system that allows a region to remain dormant so be it but it should not be counted then. His system which he says the other grids LACK of it is not FAIR for all the other grids. Kitely then should not be considered as a fair comparison to the other grids. Unless he only counts the regions that are ACTIVE.

          • When a region is offline in a traditional grid it is completely inaccessible. You can’t just teleport in and see it come up.

            You have to manually restored it to the grid.

            Kitely’s on demand regions are always accessible. I don’t consider them to be in “cold storage” but more like “warm storage.”

            If I downloaded my Kitely region to my home computer, then deleted the version that was up on Kitely — that would be cold storage.

            Or if someone stopped paying their Kitely bills and the Kitely guys took all their regions and shipped them off to whatever Amazon’s equivalent of storage Siberia is, to sit there until the bill gets paid.

            That’s cold storage. You can’t just teleport into the regions and expect them to be there. You have to manually bring them back, by uploading them again, or by paying your bill, or whatever.

            Kitely’s decision to keep free regions active and available is their issue. At some point, if there are too many of these for Kitely to afford to keep live, they’ll ship some of the older ones off until their users re-activate their accounts.

            For example, there are grids out there with empty regions up full of land plots, waiting for new users to show up and claim them. Sure these are unused regions, but it costs the grid to keep them up, and anyone can teleport in at any time and use them.

          • So yes, until OSgrid actually does a major cleaning, offline regions are counted as part of their region totals. Which really messes up my monthly stats. I wish they’d do these cleanings on a more regular basis. Say, once a month! Or on a rolling basis, automatically cleaning out regions that haven’t been active for the previous 30 days.

          • Joe Builder

            What we really would like is other grids to make a effort Like Osgrid does. Many do not. Been few years since I been to Kitely my region is still there go figure.

          • AviWorlds

            Kitely’s region on demand system is in a way counting regions in its total region stats and it should not. If the region is down, not functioning, not online should not count. Not trying to be a pain here but it is only fair.
            AviWorlds self hosted regions were deleted if they were not visited in more than 7 days. We no longer issue self hosted regions due to the security problems.

          • We only count regions that people can enter by simply teleporting into them. A simulator that runs when no one is using it is just wasting energy. The fact that other grids lack the technology Kitely developed for on-demand region access doesn’t mean that their way of running regions is any more legitimate than ours.

          • <–thinks it is already a non-issue-)))

          • lmpierce

            Except that Kitely is unique and different: when worlds are not in use, in the moment, yes, they go offline. But if the owner is still paying, that region is still available, at least to the owner, if not others as well. The fact that people pay to be on Kitely motivates them to self-delete regions they are truly never going to use again, whereas on OSGrid, it’s easy to leave and forget until there is an outside cleanup.

          • Joe Builder

            Question was by Aviworlds if those regions where being counted, Being as you know not all delete what they don’t use. I do think there is more free ones there than paid, By looking at the numbers in monthly stats vs the regions counted.

          • lmpierce

            I read AviWorlds comment as a rhetorical comparison between Kitely worlds that are offline when empty versus regions that are inactive because the account is suspended (or something similar). My first thought was to make a distinction between the technical mechanism of how Kitely works versus access issues related to account issues. Clearly Kitely has thousands of fully active regions, whether they are running in the moment or not.

            However, the broader issue of how regions stats are calculated and interpreted seems to me like a subject worth further consideration.

          • AviWorlds

            As Joe Builder says his region are still there and its been a very long while since he used it and its still being counted. I too have a free region on demand still there which means you pay as you go. I just never went back there again. But the region is there.
            Personally I think that all regions that have not been visited for an amount of time could be 7 days or 3 months; should be deleted and not counted. As all the other grids do. Comparing a ban line with a region that is not ACTIVE at all for more than 3 years is not a correct comparison.

          • AviWorlds

            Yes as I mentioned as a reply below to Marias post. My grid was in cold storage too and we still have about 50 or so regions in cold storage. So I should count those? Also I wanted to see kitelys stat page. You have a page or where I can see it?

          • OSgrid periodically removes regions that are no longer accessible but it doesn’t delete regions that are still there. We remove regions from our grid region count the instant they are deleted so we have no reason for periodic cleanups.

            We, like OSgrid, have no reason to not count regions that are available for people for access. Unlike the regions in OSgrid that mostly run on people’s computers and may be periodically inaccessible, all our counted regions are just a teleport away. In fact, just in the past couple of weeks various people who haven’t used Kitely in over a year have come back to using our grid and were delighted to find that their Metered Worlds were just as they’ve left them.

            Your, and a few other grid-affiliated individuals’, personal discomfort with the fact that Kitely hosts a lot of regions is no reason to remove other people’s ability to have regions stored for free on Kitely. Some people actually see value in having regions not be deleted after a period of disuse.

    • KeithSelmes

      “Are these free regions that people get automaticaly counted in kitelys region total stat?”

      When you start an account with Kitely you don’t automatically get a new region created, you get the option to do so, if you click the button and follow through the prompts.

      Some people want to visit worlds, but don’t want to do any world building, and will not create one.

      Then, some of us have some alts for testing. I’ve not started any worlds with those accounts, but my main account has a 9 region world, and sometimes I temporarily create an extra world on my main account for testing etc.

      So there’s no direct relationship between numbers of accounts, numbers of regions, or numbers of worlds. The system is so flexible and usable, there isn’t really any direct comparison with an SL type service.
      In fact, I rather think of SL as being the old way of doing things.

      As to usage, suppose you want to run a college class for 6 weeks in January with 80 students split in smaller tutorial groups, each group timetabled to use the same one region world for a different 3 hours each week. Then you run the same class with a new set of students one year later.
      Kitely would be extremely useful and cost effective for that type of service. However it doesn’t fit easily into analyses of grid stats.

  • Got delivery to Hyperica working! Ilan found the problem — I didn’t have my Suitcase folder set up correctly. After deleting it, and restarting the viewer, my new Suitcase folder worked perfectly, and my outfit was delivered right away.

    • Thank you Maria for providing us with detailed information during the investigation stage. It helped us devise an automatic workaround for this type of user-side configuration problem that we’ll include in our next marketplace update. 🙂

  • Gaga

    I think this is a silly discussion about region counts. If someone keeps a region connection to OSgrid but only puts it online when they want to use it, how is that any different from Kitely on-demand regions? At least with the Kitely regions, if they have public access then anyone get visit them – they just fire up from cloud. If someone claims a region slot at OSgrid but keeps the region offline until the owner wants to use it no one can visit it. So, should regions that are offline for a large part of the time be excluded from region counts too?

    I mean, if you want to split hairs about Kitely what about the many regions on home PC’s that are offline most of the time then? I know of quite a few mini grids that are offline much of the time too. Should they be excluded as well?

  • Wow, lots of anger here about Kitely’s business model. I’m going to address the stats issue in another post and shut down the thread because it seems to have veered away from the Kitely Market itself.