5 reasons Kitely regions are real OpenSim regions

If a tree falls in a virtual forest and no avatar is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Some may argue that a virtual world region must always be running, irrespective of an avatar presence, to be counted as a “real” region. Others would say that even if the region and the tree only exist when an avatar is present, the region is nonetheless “real” in every meaningful way, regardless of the state of the region between visits.

(Image courtesy Lawrence Pierce.)

A tree fell in Kitely, but nobody was there to hear it. (Image courtesy Lawrence Pierce.)

Kitely is an on-demand service that hosts regions in a unit of organization they call worlds. So, let’s see what makes them “real”…

Reason #1: When you enter a Kitely world, you are using OpenSim

Kitely runs OpenSimulator to create regions within each Kitely world. Thus, by definition, Kitely worlds are “real” OpenSim regions. Okay, that was easy…

The key distinction with Kitely is that those regions are not kept loaded in RAM when no one is using them. Functionally, Kitely regions appear and behave just like any other OpenSim region on any other grid. The only user experience difference is the time delay for initial access to a world. Well, the Web was just as real using a 56k modem as using 40Mbps broadband service, so it really isn’t relevant to say that the speed of establishing a connection determines the realness of a service. And like improvements in accessing the Web, Kitely has been improving world startup times, in many cases reducing that time to mere seconds.

Reason #2: You can enter any Kitely world 24/7, conditional of course on any permissions that have been set

Kitely does have a rating system that restricts who can access specific worlds based on owner settings. And like other grids, Kitely supports access control via groups. Nonetheless, all Kitely worlds are accessible to someone, at any time, 24/7. How is that different than accessing any other “real” region on a 24/7 grid with similar owner controls?

Reason #3: The light in your refrigerator is a real light, even though it turns off when you close the door

Okay, so the argument is that if a world isn’t loaded into RAM 24/7 it doesn’t count as a “real” region.

That does mean that if I turn off the room light when I’m not in it, it’s not a “real” light?

That’s meaningless in any practical sense. As long as my service is there when I or someone else decides to use it, it’s just as “real” as a service burning watts when no one is around.

But I hear another argument as well, that people open an account and create a free Kitely world, which may lay idle, indefinitely; therefore it should not be counted as a “real” region.

But the point about whether a region is “real” is not about how often it is used, or the value of its content, but rather, is it accessible whenever a visitor or owner decides to visit? Regions in “always on” grids can sit idle for hours, days, even weeks at a time. Does that idle time running on a computer mean they shouldn’t be counted either, if no one is there and the regions go unused?

In fact, grids count those regions along with the more active ones.

Reason #4: Kitely doesn’t reserve map spaces for regions that don’t exist

One idea that has been bantered about is that after a certain amount of time of non-use, a world should be counted as “dead” and removed from region counts.

This argument usually comes up around the time that OSgrid does some housekeeping, so the comparison is made that like OSgrid, Kitely should do a similar cleanup.

However, the OSgrid system is a system of reservations. When those reservations go unused for a period of time, the addresses are reclaimed and the region count, which is actually a reservation count, goes down. When the count is adjusted, regions are not deleted, but rather unused reservations are reclaimed.

This does not happen at Kitely. Any world counted is a world that can be accessed. Kitely doesn’t need a cleanup process because worlds that are deleted are expunged from their system with no lingering region-less reservations to clean up later.

Reason #5: Reality is in the mind of the beholder.

Certainly one can argue philosophically and arrive at various definitions of reality. So, are regions examples of realism, nominalism or idealism? Is Kitely consistent with the paradigm of your choice? Defend. I’ll expect your essays by noon on Friday.

My hope would be that Kitely regions are readily accepted as inherently “real” enough for any reasonable standards virtual worlds users would typically apply. After all, when you get down to it, any implementation of “virtual reality” is already a challenge to what “real” means.

Bottom line

Can we agree that Kitely regions are “real”? I haven’t found any reason to think of them as anything but real. Certainly for the people who use Kitely, their worlds are real.

Because of the on-demand service structure, Kitely also offers huge cost savings and a green approach to region hosting that has truly set them apart and attracted a lot of “real” virtual world projects; not only for hobbyists, but for schools and businesses as well.

There is a discussion worth having about the impact of regions in any grid that persist and are accessible, yet serve no visitors or even the world creator. It is, however, a complex topic with many considerations that go beyond the scope of this article.

The issue of “real” regions as described here does not make a value judgment about content, use or raison d’être. Rather, “real”, in relation to Kitely regions, simply means existing as accessible virtual places, which are in every way equivalent to the “real” regions offered by other services.

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Lawrence Pierce

Lawrence Pierce specializes in new media design and production. He began as a computer game programmer and has been a systems consultant to corporations such as DuPont and the J. Paul Getty Art Trust, art director on the first computer game for MTV and a featured artist in the Hollywood Reporter.

87 Responses

  1. me@timothyfrancisrogers.me' hack13 says:

    I am not really sure whomever said they weren’t real? Thats kinda strange they would say that, this article confuses me, why would anyone think they are anything but opensim regions?

    • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

      Great, perfect! I thought about this while writing the article. So, here’s where it’s coming from…

      In previous iterations of discourse about the Kitely service model, there has been the occasional concern that Kitely regions are not equivalent to other grids’ regions because they shut off when no one is using them. There is also the mixed set of issues regarding the legitimacy of some Kitely regions for region counting purposes, and relevant aspects of that are also addressed here, although it would take a separate article to fully explore the entire set of concerns in that regard.

      This article is also for anyone who hasn’t used Kitely because it is an on-demand service, which can cause doubt as to whether Kitely regions function just like regions in grids that are “always-on”.

      But, as you point out, for many, Kitely has always seemed completely functionally equivalent to any other service, aside from specific features like Hypergrid access, and the points made in the article probably read as givens, rather than revelations.

      • me@timothyfrancisrogers.me' hack13 says:

        Well there I can say that the on-demand model is VERY profitable, secondly its not for everyone. For example, I am someone who enjoy’s vastly large land groupings, such as the mainland in secondlife, this is sadly something I could not do in Kitely. However for most things you can, and the fact when you attempt to teleport manually it works just fine by booting up the regions your trying to teleport too.

        It honestly is just people crying over spilt milk. Because they have more regions, people are all upset. Honestly regions are a vanity metric anyways, it would take me nothing to put up 500 regions.

        • “it would take me nothing to put up 500 regions.” triple doggy dare you to on zetaworlds 😛

          • me@timothyfrancisrogers.me' hack13 says:

            Ok, and I will make them on-demand regions just like Kitely 🙂

          • That will be cool to see. I’d be interested in how you set it up, and how long the regions take to load from warm storage. I’m sure other grid owners will be watching with interest as well.

            I think this is particularly useful for residential areas. These are super low-traffic regions. Typically, just the owner, and maybe their friends. Even if it takes a while for them to load up, it’s not that big a deal.

            A grid could afford to give away a free residential region to everyone — and if they want a region that’s up all the time, or can handle more visitors, they can upgrade to a paid plan.

            You can even constrain it further — say, the only way to boot it up would be for the owner of the region to log in. Then the region will continue to stay up as long as the owner is active. That way you don’t have to worry about automatically trying to activate the region when people try to teleport in, or hypergrid teleport in.

            It would still be a good deal, because if it’s my residential region, I don’t want people snooping around my house while I’m out. And if I’m using it for a store or a museum — well, it’s supposed to be residential, isn’t it? I can upgrade to a paid region if I want more uptime.

            If it works, then everyone can get a free residential region on any OpenSim grid. And it would probably bring in a LOT of new users to OpenSim, too.

          • me@timothyfrancisrogers.me' hack13 says:

            Well we have been toying with this idea for quite some time now, and have a working modal using Digital Ocean as our backend so its all solid state drives, in fact Digital Ocean’s quote it “50 seconds or less” we have normally clocked startup time at about 35 seconds, then the region well the region part depends on how full the region is.

            Now Maria, this is not something we plan on selling outside of ZetaWorlds, it is strictly for ZetaWorlds usage. So your idea of any grid using it, is pretty cool but, pretty hard to impliment outside of a controlled grid enviroment.

          • But if you can get it to work on Zetaworlds, can’t you get it working for your other hosted grid customers? And it would certainly be a selling point — at least for a while, before other vendors start offering something similar.

          • me@timothyfrancisrogers.me' hack13 says:

            It is something to consider, however I would have to talk it over with my team. See if we do on-demand, we are going to probably do it in a completely different model than Kitely. While I think Kitely is a great concept, and very profitable for them, I want to develop a solution where i can have users with regions sitting beside eachother.

          • im ready for that meeting. btw i call dips on making train tracks on this mainland you speak of 😛

        • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

          I don’t think the on-demand model is necessarily profitable – that depends on good management, appropriate pricing and so on. It’s my (obvious) guess, however, that Kitely has been designed and managed to be profitable and thereby ensure its continuation.

          What I find more noteworthy about their service structure is that it is VERY economical for users. Such win-win situations in business are role model material. As you note, however, and like any other service in any other industry, there must be a good fit between the service offering and the customer’s needs in order to trigger a transaction.

          Counting regions is a metric that will probably (hopefully) evolve over time. What I like about Kitely is that they have a public directory which offers a more meaningful aspect of their worlds, namely descriptions that can help the user decide, “Is this world going to be interesting to me?”

          • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

            Not to bad mouth any service but if one is better than the other wouldn’t that show in the monthly stats what the virtual person prefers. On demand vs dedicated. As a business smart money says use what the masses want more than what a grid owner prefers.

          • It’s not that simple. We don’t have any clear points of comparison right now. We don’t have two grids, otherwise identical, one of which offers on-demand hosting, and the other doesn’t, so we can compare user activity. Lots of other factors come into play — communities, events, marketing, brand-name merchants, brand-name recognition, age of the grid, etc… etc…

            And we can’t look for correlations — putting all on-demand grids in one group, and always-on grids, in another, and seeing what patterns emerge — because right now there’s only one on-demand grid, Kitely. We’d need many more datapoints for the comparison to have any usefulness.

            Finally, you don’t necessarily have to go after the average customer to be successful. So, say, if 55 percent of customers prefer A, and every grid begins offering A, that means that the 45 percent of customers who prefer B will have nowhere to go. If you serve them, you’ll have the field to yourself — until, of course, the other grids catch on.

            Finally, this area is evolving so quickly that there is no way to know what customers actually want, much less what they’re going to want tomorrow.

          • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

            I think its the average user perception of what they really want as far as there region or regions being off or always on without redirection till it loads. Although there both close in arrival time to a particular region. The mass majority will not accept that for some crazy reason.
            Few small examples Inworldz, Island Oasis seem to do rather well with the “Always on” platform. I truly think its that lack of knowing Kitleys service or the mindset of there region being offline that many choose not to participate in. As a few years back I did mention to Ilan to diversify having both cloud based and dedicated, That’s just me with a business sense to cover all aspects.

          • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

            I think a good analogy can be seen in queueing theory. There is a natural limit to how long people will wait in a line, but it varies on many factors. People wait much longer in line for a ride at Disneyland than they would ever consider at a grocery store. But within each category, the service provider tries to find that sweet spot that balances costs with benefits.

            Kitely offers very economical and efficient pricing, and the tradeoff is a world entry delay of seconds. In fact, if even one avatar is already in a world, the entry for a second avatar is instantaneous, so the wait process is almost negligible under many circumstances.

            This kind of price versus benefit happens in retail. Stores with the lowest prices tend to have longer lines at the cashiers than stores with higher prices. It’s not valid to say that any queue time whatsoever is a discouraging factor – people accept such a delay to receive the other benefits that go along with the wait. The same goes for getting into a popular club or getting to a preferred job in the center of the city (traffic!) or waiting for a seat on a plane for a vacation. It’s all about tradeoffs in costs and benefits.

          • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

            Yes, Also remember 90% or more came from SL there mostly everyone are trained in how a virtual experience should be. The average virtual person is extremely lazy can give 100 examples but I’ll say 1. Fly rather than walk and enjoy the scenery. So with that said new things or unfamiliar is a bad choice in a struggling new world. These are all factors a Grid owner needs to take into consideration. They certainly need to look at what works, And what people are use to. Most the idea of there home or region whatever offline is a red light. Yes it don’t make sense to use being we know better, But the majority and SLer`s are the target group. I do give kitley lot of credit believe it or not :). Again not to rehash but look where the majority of the opensim clan prefer and what type of service they most prefer. Kitley and the other types of grids (services) been around a while now I think the jury is in on this one.

          • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

            Well, millions started with AOL and then went into new paradigms for Web access. And if you want to attract attention, you usually need something new. The trick is to create something new, and better as well. The “better” part is what’s tricky, and what moves the world forward when customers agree.

          • It might just be a matter of education and familiarity. Having tried Kitely, I personally feel that all their regions are “there” there, just that it might take a few seconds longer to teleport to some of them.

            And while I have my own grid, I would DEFINITELY consider using another provider for a personal residential region.

            For example, if another grid offered me a free, on-demand region — even if it was with a low prim allowance and only five or 10 avatars able to visit at once — I would take it, as long as they offered OAR (or filtered OAR) downloads.

            Meanwhile, my current plan is to use my free Kitely region as my “residential” home once they turn hypergrid on. I’m past my six free hours (I’ve had my account there since the grid first opened!) but at 20 cents per hour, I can easily pick up the tab, especially since I don’t expect to be using it that much.

          • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

            And if we want this technology to grow, should we really be making sure we never pay for any of it? The more reasonable position is to look for value, and expect to pay fair prices. This is what makes business possible.

          • At a certain point, though, technology becomes cheap enough that it can, in effect, be offered for free and monetized through other means. For example, Dropbox offers free storage to everyone, and charges for particular features or extra storage, or what have you. The free storage offer is then its main form of advertising. Dropbox (I believe, or maybe this was another service) also allows people to earn more free storage by recommending it to others.

            A grid could do something similar. You get a basic, on-demand region with say, 3000 prims, for free. Every new person you invite get THEIR own free region — plus, you get another 500 prims.

            A certain percentage of these users will trade up to premium, paid regions. Other users will spend money in-world, or create content or events. Or they’ll contribute to the grid in other ways — by being part of an audience, by taking part in role playing games, and so on.

            Frankly, I’m really surprised that Kitely isn’t using any kind of viral marketing strategy – but that means that a grid that does use it will have the first-mover advantage.

          • ilan@kitely.com' Ilan Tochner says:

            Hi Maria,

            Prims are not the limiting factor in the number of sims you can reasonably place on a single server. It’s the scripts, physics and number of concurrent avatars that limit the amount of virtual land you can give away for free and monetize in other ways (the less servers you require the less money you need to earn to cover the hosting expense).

            It’s a lot more feasible for Kitely to switch to a freemium model now than it was a few years ago but the immediate loss of net profits (reduced hosting revenues minus increased hosting expenses) may not be worth it unless we can increase virtual goods sales revenue per active sim hour.

            Kitely Market is doing very well but our 10%-20% revenue share from those sales isn’t sufficient to offset the revenue loss from switching to a freemium model. In order to do that we’d need to tax all inworld Kitely Credit transfers between users (which we currently don’t do) and increase the revenue share to at least the industry standard 30% that app stores take (iTunes, Facebook, Amazon, Google, etc.). We may also need to add some uploading fee to prevent people from trying to bypass that tax by buying items somewhere else and uploading them into Kitely. In other words, we’re not sure people would gladly accept what is required for us to switch to a freemium model.

          • The reason I suggested prim counts as the premium measure instead of something more technically meaningful is that prim limits are extremely meaningful to users, extremely visible, and also easy to measure.

            I’m reminded of the old GeoCities days, where they gave everyone a free page, in return for putting an ad on it. Nowadays, of course, you can get a whole free blog, unlimited number of pages, from any number of services — Blogger, WordPress.com, Google Sites, etc…

            Which brings up the classic innovator’s dilemma… and leaves Kitely vulnerable to a potential competitor who has either enough of a financial cushion to do it, or has a different monetization plan (such as taxing in-world transactions or higher marketplace fees, like you mentioned, or charging extra for more prims , etc…)

            If you guys were bigger, you could clone your company and do some experiments.

            Personally, I think the more experimentations there is with business models, the better. If someone invents something that really catches on and brings in masses of new users, then we’d be that much closer to having open source as an entrenched foundation of the metaverse and keeping a proprietary, Facebook-owned one at bay.

          • ilan@kitely.com' Ilan Tochner says:

            Not so much of an innovator’s dilemma as the ability to finance a money losing strategy until prices go down enough to make it economically sustainable. You can easily rack up significant hosting costs even using an on-demand model, especially if there is no limiting factor to the use of your free offering.

            Prims may be simple for users to understand but the real limitation for the free service would have to be in the amount of concurrency, script usage and physics usage allowed on the free sim. Without that even a 3000 prim sim can max out an entire server, costing you a lot more than you could realistically recuperate using other revenue streams.

            The fundamentals remain the same, each sim-hour costs you a certain amount of money on average and you need to be making more per hour per sim than that cost or you aren’t left with any margin to even cover other business expenses. If you have enough funding you could sustain that strategy for a while but you’d need to change various prices and limits in order for the freemium model to be sustainable for OpenSim-based region hosting at this time.

          • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

            There are other ways to “pay” “fair value” than with cash….but I am sure you realize that, I just wanted to highlight this.

          • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

            Yes, I have a client who pays me in drink gift cards from the local coffee house. It’s a charming way to handle small transactions. But the landlord, grocery store, utilities, auto mechanic, doctor, dentist, restaurants, retailers, Amazon and my ISP all use money, so 99% of my income is required to be in money as well.

          • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

            uhoh “For example, if another grid offered me a free, on-demand region — even if it was with a low prim allowance and only five or 10 avatars able to visit at once — I would take it, as long as they offered OAR (or filtered OAR) downloads.”

            now, you KNOW, when such suggestions are made, you will get offers, right? I would imagine you do…lol…I can see it now, Maria Korolov is in MY grid, we is [sic] more special than YOUR grid….woot!!!

            The big question now, is, do you have the time for them all?-)))

          • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

            Surely but you are one and yes there are many more. The thing is what do the mass majority prefer that’s the ones I would chase as a grid owner.

    • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

      this person is one….

      “TranquillityDexler Post subject: Re: InWorldz StatsPostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:24 am

      Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:44 pm
      Posts: 3516
      Agreed with the assessment. Active users are our #1 metric for determining how we’re doing followed by number of sims.

      Since our sims are always on and we don’t count sims that are merely in storage, our sim numbers reflect the bulk of our income. Active users are important for people sharing sims, land owners that rent, and merchants and eventually translate to land sales one way or another.”

    • I get a lot of flack every month when I publish the OpenSim grid stats for counting Kitely regions the same as I count any other grid’s regions. But, for some reason — no flack at all for counting ScienceSim’s 1,000 landscape regions that were never visited at all, just there to test the servers.

      And only occasionally did people complain about the Virtual World Grid, which also had a lot of unused regions.

      • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

        Oh, I can see several reasons for that flack concerning Kitely…and, also, why Metropolis gets none, too.

        • sphere1952@gmail.com' Jim Williams says:

          I’m learning about those reasons myself.

          • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

            Care to compare notes?-))

            Personally, I have become weary of the boorish and simplistic drama that typically comes from those with certain agendas, so much so that my typical comment is like the above one anymore. It gives them less to munch on when it is rather more ambiguous.

            Though occasionally I still get to feeling a bit feisty and tweak them a bit to amuse myself [which is really a pathetic indicator about my life, but I digress….lol].

  2. karelboard@aol.com' wolftimber says:

    The issue isnt number of regions, they vary by the minute, the issue is claiming a grid has 30,000 “accounts” or 30,000 “users” when we all know NONE of these grid purge OLD, abandoned, junked acounts that haven’t been logged into for months or YEARS, logged into for 5 minutes 2 years ago just to “look” or were never logged into because they were created after forgetting a password, not gettting the confirmation email and trying again, or someone created a bunch of “alts” or just registered names they use in SL to “lock them up” elsewhere and waste resources.
    The number of accounts or users is completely meaningless, the only number that means anything is how many actually LOG IN every month and for how long.

  3. gordon.twine@gmx.com' Gordon says:

    “Some may argue that a virtual world region must always be running, irrespective of an avatar presence, to be counted as a “real” region.”

    From Wikipedia:
    “Most accepted definitions of virtual worlds require that it be persistent; in other words, the world must continue to exist even after a user exits the world…”

    From Virtual Worlds Research:
    A virtual world cannot be paused. It continues to exist and function after the participant has left. Persistence separates virtual worlds from video games such as Pac-Man or Galaga. This persistence changes the way people interact with other participants and the environment. No longer is one participant the center of the world but a member of a dynamic community and evolving economy. A participant has a sense the systems in the space (environment, ecology, economy) exist with or without a participant’s presence.”

    There are many more definitions like this in the web. If you think this is all wrong, you should do a new research and then create a neww definition in other words. 🙂

    • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

      Hi Gordon,

      I’m glad you made these points…

      First, the article which discusses a definition for “virtual worlds” was written in 2008, before the Kitely service model was initiated. Without going more deeply into the article, I’ll just respond to the excerpts you’ve cited. ‘Persistence’ can mean, running without pause, but it can also mean persistence in the conceptual sense. For example, I can persist in pursuing a hobby, but that does not mean I do not take breaks. It means something much closer to continuity. It is unnecessarily literal to argue that a computer system cannot parse activities based on actual demand while remaining persistent in effect.

      Unlike a computer game, which resets after being turned off (at least in the Pac-Man example), the virtual worlds created in Kitely retain their changes from session to session. I often need to go into my virtual world because some user-accessible features require my attention after being changed by visitors – those changes persisted. Kitely worlds function as ongoing communities of linear time activities in which participants come and go over extended periods. They only pause when the agents of change, the avatars, are themselves not present to cause changes. In fact, if you didn’t know Kitely worlds were on-demand, and if there was (magically) no first-time entrance delay, you would not experience any difference between them and other “always on” stand-alone regions.

      The entire sentence from the Wikipedia excerpt reads as follows: “Most accepted definitions of virtual worlds require that it be persistent; in other words, the world must continue to exist even after a user exits the world, and user-made changes to the world should be preserved.” In the first place, that particular reference is from 1999. That even predates Second Life. Secondly, the proposal that changes to a world must be preserved is fulfilled by Kitely worlds. The final point, “continue to exist even after a user exists the world” is also true. Kitely worlds very much continue to exist. At any time, 24/7, the owner of a Kitely world can choose to enter their world, and it will be there, will all prior changes made through time, by themselves or by other permitted visitors. The technical mechanism of presenting the world to the user by moving it into RAM during access does not negate its existence. In fact, if Kitely worlds didn’t exist after leaving them, each new entrance would present an empty region as when the world was new.

      Definitions, especially as concerns technology, need to be re-examined and sometimes updated to accommodate new methods and implementations. My article acknowledges Kitely’s unique approach to hosting virtual worlds. I think Kitely has cleverly developed a nuanced delivery system that fulfills a valid definition of what a virtual world is and can be.

      • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

        I’m really not sure 1 grid (platform) (service) would change how so many definitions of virtual worlds is documented. The idea of re-examined may be a far leap unless its the norm to shut them down and be non active.

        • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

          Definitions are rarely absolute, but absolutely change over time. The challenge we face is how to adapt our definitions to the evolving capabilities that technology offers for extending the methods and implementations of our activities. Early definitions of virtual worlds were crafted to highlight how they were distinct from games and other computer software. Since then, games have evolved until some are very much like virtual worlds (World of Warcraft) and some virtual worlds perform like games.

          Rather than hold to a rigid definition, I think it makes more sense to look at how these technologies perform. Is an iPhone a telephone or a camera, or a videophone, or an ATM (minus the cash withdrawal feature) or a credit card or a game controller, or a movie camera or an encyclopedia or a GPS navigator, or ? Modern advances in technology require new thinking about definitions. In my view, this applies to Kitely’s use of on-demand technology to host virtual worlds as well.

          • shadowtanuki@gmail.com' Quallz says:

            I have a feeling your also one of those people that’ll argue the definition of feminism and say that it’s actually fighting for mens rights as well. A spade is a spade, this is a non-argument, it’s an opinion, why bother debate your opinion?

  4. netinterprizes@yahoo.com' Alex Ferraris says:

    No one is saying Kitely’s regions are not opensim regions.
    What I have placed on the table is that EVERYONE who joins kitely automatically gets a region and regardless if the resident uses it or not after the six hours expires Kitely will keep that region in their region’s total count stats.
    I like the refrigerator door example, But you forget to analyse one thing.
    What if the door is never opened? Is that fair for me to say that then then light will never turn on?
    That is the samething that is happening in kitely.
    Most of kiyely’ s free regions are NEVER turned back on after the six hours free time.
    So Ilan is just using letting all these regions that are never ever turned back on in his grids stats.
    He claims that the regions are there in deep hibernation ready to be used whenever so they must count.
    I offet a solution for this. After 3 months of nonusage these regions must be placed in a nonusage status and off the total stats.
    If and only if the user for somereason wants to turn his now PAID region after YEARS of nonusage; He or She then must redo the region request process and.then only then that regiom would be back to Kitely’s total region count stats.

    It is not fair for the other grids to take advantage of a system that LOGS a new region every time a new user signs up. Or even if it needs to be requested in order for the region to be counted.

    Look at Kitely’s. unique visitors per 30 days cicle.
    600 or so, with more than 6000 regions?
    Aviworlds has almost 400 visitors with 117 regions. More realistic huh?

    • Alex — So why did you never complain about ScienceSim? Their 1,000 testing regions — used to demonstrate how many regions a single server could support — were just empty landscape. Occasionally someone would wander in and go, “Whoa, that’s a lot of land!” and maybe fly around a little bit then go away. ScienceSim, as a testing grid, had very very few active users.

      I think nobody begrudged them those regions because they’re a non-profit. They were doing scalability testing that’s useful to the community at large.

      Kitely’s a direct competitor and one that can afford to give away a free region to everyone because of their cloud-based, on-demand infrastructure.

      The solution isn’t to lobby to get Kitely taken out of the stats listings. The solution is to innovate, to make OpenSim easier and cheaper for everyone to use.

      • netinterprizes@yahoo.com' Alex Ferraris says:

        I m not asking to take Kitely out of the stats. I like kitely pretty much. I have given Ilan many ideas and advices and I only feel that the resolutuon to this is what I proposed on my last post.
        Yes to iinovation ! No if the grid is going to abuse this innovation to gain more popularity.

        • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

          I hope you do not mind my stepping in here, but the solution is not in trying to cast aspersions upon innovation and those bold enough to be risk takers, because by doing so, the cycle will never end.

          In other words, innovation is the key to progress, whatever it may be.

          The solution, IMO, is to wholeheartedly support such innovators, find ways to collaborate with them, while at the same time [yes, both are not mutually exclusive] promote, in a positive way, your own innovations, which, imo, you do well….FEED IT!!-))

          So, collaboration, innovation, positive reinforcement of those things…is the way to go forward.

          Eventually all this will change anyway, so does one fight such progress or does one embrace it? Does one see the sameo sameo as something to spend time with, or does one embrace the march of technology, and join with others of like mind?


          There is nothing served at all by nit-picking other’s ideas, unless those ideas are unworthy in some regards. God forbid, there are actually real issues in all this that such energies could be better put to use…n’est ce pas?

          • netinterprizes@yahoo.com' Alex Ferraris says:

            Yes I totally agree regarding supporting risks takers, innovators also.
            But I dont agree when someone abuses that innovation to gain popularity among others.
            Im a risk taker myself but I also would never say I killed a lion if I did not do it with my own hands. No guns.

          • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

            Yes, but this is a straw man argument…there are all sorts of abusers, focusing on the the good things while at the same time dismissing the negatives, will make you look better, make the Meta look better, and we can all enjoy those things we enjoy doing, while collaborating in positive ways to make it all better…you see-))

            At the same time we can leave behind those who do not play well with the rest of us, because, that is, of course, their choice.


            Personally, I see straw man debate tactics [even if not fully understood] to be rather negative and simplistic.

          • Personally, I’m all in favor of using innovation to gain popularity. As opposed to, say, gaining popularity by releasing a sex tape. No, I take it back. It’d love to see tech startups release sex tapes. The comedy value alone would be worth it!

            “Hey, I’ve got a hard drive for you, baby!”

            “Ouch, that hurt! I’m never inviting you to my mom’s basement again!”

            Reminds me of my own youth… trying to impress guys with my abilities to write binary sorts in assembly language… them trying to impress me with their hacking skills… neither realizing that the other one was trying to hit on them… Ahh, the mating habits of the young, geeky, and clueless…

          • Now that I’m older and wiser, my pickup lines have TOTALLY changed.


            “Let me buy you a drink and tell you about my vision for an open-source, hyper-connected metaverse!”

            Which, by the way, has had ZERO success so far. LOL.

          • netinterprizes@yahoo.com' Alex Ferraris says:

            Maria I said innovation is great and yes gain popularity with it. But I also said gaining popularity by ABUSING the innovation is wrong.
            Two different things.

          • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

            You could do an article to submit to Maria, on your own project, and include your own vision and how you see things….just a thought, getting tired now.

      • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

        Not sure many other grids are in the limelight so much, And I think there is a lot of grids that maybe need the same amount of coverage as the one in question. A good idea is maybe for you being you post these stats to make it really clear what is acceptable in these numbers being presented. Being non-used regions seems to be acceptable, Only because there in a waiting for indefinite status.

    • ilan@kitely.com' Ilan Tochner says:

      Hi Alex,

      I think you’re misinformed about how Kitely’s signup and world creation processes work (they are separate). We do not automatically create a new world for every person who signs up. We allow each person who signs up to create a free world if they want to. The process is quick and simple but it still requires the person to finish creating their account before they can press a New World button in their My Worlds page and use the New World wizard. If they don’t take this additional step we don’t create a new world for them. In fact, most people who create Kitely accounts never even try to create their own world, they simply visit other people’s worlds.

      I think you should reconsider your objection about what regions we count. We don’t count ones that people haven’t explicitly taken steps to create.

      • arpholdings@gmail.com' AviWorlds says:

        Ok Ilan.

        Let me be more clear then.

        New users in your grid need to click CREATE WORLD in other words they need to request that the region is created.Thats fine.

        What I am saying is that after the SIX hours you give for free expires and the regions are no longer used for a period of 3 months or more; that is the fair thing for KITELY to do is to delete them from the your TOTAL REGIONS COUNT STAT.

        If the user comes back lets say after 3 years or so and he or she wants the region back then they would have to REQUEST create region again.

        What you are doing is wrong keeping regions on your totals even when the owners havent returned. The fair way to use your INNOVATION is what I described above.

        Maria keeps saying you give 1 region free 100K prims when in fact you do not give that region FREE. You give 6 hours credit for the user to use the region. Free is Free and never charged.

        At the same time when you allured the new user into kitely by playing with the words saying FREE REGION; you start charging for it after 6 hours and most users never return but for you it is a win win situation. It is super cheap for you to give 6 hours free to everyone. The real expense you do not give which is a real 100K prim region FREE really FREE.

        Maria says she wants to see every grid give a free region free. Well ok lets see KITELY give a 100K prim region TOTALLY free then. 6000 of them.

        I also give FREE regions. AviWorlds currently gives out 1/4 sims free TOTALLY FREE! Not only six hours. We have about 100 regions dedicated to this alone. I dont charge them after 6 hours.

        Your FREE is an illusion and you use that to increase your REGION numbers on your stats.
        I asked Maria for your total user registration count.
        Ilan can you please tell me your TOTAL REGISTERED USERS please?

        You real region count . The ones ACTIVE please?
        Number of regions that havent been active for 3 months or longer please?

        Here is the definition of FREE




        adjective: free; comparative adjective: freer; superlative adjective: freest


        not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.

        “I have no ambitions other than to have a happy life and be free”

        (of a state or its citizens or institutions) subject neither to foreign domination nor to despotic government.

        “a free press”

        synonyms:independent, self-governing, self-governed, self-ruling, self-determining, nonaligned, sovereign, autonomous; More


        “a citizen of a free nation”


        not or no longer confined or imprisoned.

        “the researchers set the birds free”

        synonyms:on the loose, at liberty, at large; More

        loose, unconfined, unbound, untied, unchained, untethered, unshackled, unfettered, unrestrained

        “the killer is still free”



        not a slave.

        able or permitted to take a specified action.

        “you are free to leave”

        synonyms:allowed, permitted; More

        able, in a position to

        “you are free to leave”


        an ethnic or political group actively opposing an occupying or invading
        force, in particular the groups that continued resisting the Germans in
        World War II after the fall of their countries.


        not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded.

        “she lifted the cat free”

        synonyms:unimpeded, unobstructed, unrestricted, unhampered, clear, open, unblocked More

        “the free flow of water”



        (of power or energy) disengaged or available.


        not bound in an atom, a molecule, or a compound.

        “the atmosphere of that time contained virtually no free oxygen”


        (of a morpheme) able to occur in isolation.


        not subject to or constrained by engagements or obligations.

        “she spent her free time shopping”

        synonyms:unoccupied, not busy, available, between appointments; More

        off duty, off work, off;

        on vacation, on leave;

        at leisure, with time on one’s hands, with time to spare

        “I’m free this afternoon”

        antonyms:busy, occupied, unavailable

        (of a facility or piece of equipment) not occupied or in use.

        “the bathroom was free”

        synonyms:vacant, empty, available, unoccupied, not taken, not in use More

        “the bathroom’s free now”



        not subject to or affected by (a specified thing, typically an undesirable one).

        “membership is free of charge”

        synonyms:unencumbered by, unaffected by, clear of, without, rid of; More

        exempt from, not liable to, safe from, immune to, excused from;

        informalsans, minus

        “she was free of any pressures”


        given or available without charge.

        “free health care”

        synonyms:without charge, free of charge, for nothing; More

        complimentary, gratis;

        informalfor free, on the house

        “admission is free”


        using or expending something without restraint; lavish.

        “she was always free with her money”

        synonyms:generous, liberal, openhanded, unstinting, bountiful; More

        lavish, extravagant, prodigal

        “she was free with her money”


        frank or unrestrained in speech, expression, or action.

        “he was free in his talk of revolution”

        synonyms:frank, open, candid, direct, plain-spoken; More

        unrestrained, unconstrained, free and easy, uninhibited

        “his free and hearty manner”


        overfamiliar or forward in manner.


        (of a literary style) not observing the strict laws of form.

        (of a translation) conveying only the broad sense; not literal.



        (of the wind) blowing from a favorable direction to the side or stern of a vessel.


        adverb: free

        • ilan@kitely.com' Ilan Tochner says:

          Hi Alex,

          The free Metered World you get with a Regular Kitely account is:

          1) Given to you without you needing to pay Kitely anything or even so much as give us your billing information.

          2) Accessible to you for free for up to 6 hours.

          3) Remains accessible to anyone on a Premium account indefinitely without it costing you anything.

          In other words, you might not be able to access it for more than 6 hours for free but many other people will be able to access it without it costing them or you anything extra. The majority of Kitely worlds are set up this way and many of them are occasionally visited by Premium account users despite the fact the the person who created those world(s) never paid us anything.

          Some of those worlds hold galleries, others hold information centers, some are sandboxes, others are advertisements for people’s virtual world businesses (in or outside Kitely) and some offer some entertainment value. In any case, all those worlds are maintained free of charge to the people who created them and offer enough value to them to not want to delete them (which they can easily do at any time by pressing a Delete link in their My Worlds page).

          You might not see value in those things but many people do, many also like knowing they have a world available to them if they ever want to visit it and buy Kitely Credits in order to be able to do so. Their worlds remains available for them and others without them needing to pay Kitely for maintaining it active or having to periodically “activate” that world so it won’t be deleted. There is value to the customer and that value was given by Kitely without Kitely charging the customer – that would be labeled as Free by most definitions I know.

          • arpholdings@gmail.com' AviWorlds says:

            ok Ilan Thanks.
            I rest my case.
            Still no total registered users, total regions that are not being used for 3 months or longer and region totals that are being used. Meaning ACTIVE and being PAID.
            If you could please disclosure these stats above for all of us to see please and yes off course it is a sin to lie. 🙂

          • ilan@kitely.com' Ilan Tochner says:

            We report the total number of user accounts that have been created in Maria’s monthly stats. For example, see: http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/statistics/april-2014-opensim-growth-statistics/ for the stats we reported on April 15 for the preceding 30 days. At that time a total of
            19,838 user accounts had been created (that number now exceeds 20,000).

            Your request for the number of paid-for regions serves no purpose that is helpful to potential customers, it’s only goal is to try to make you and other virtual world providers look like your relatively expensive offerings attract the same amount of business that Kitely does. If we switched to a freemium hosting model then potentially none of our regions would be paid for by users but that wouldn’t make them any less real or relevant to customers, in fact it would make Kitely more attractive to them.

            As for the number of regions that had people in them in the last 90 days, we’ll start releasing that data when all other grids in Maria’s reports do the same. In any case, that data can be easily fudged so I’d suggest setting a minimum number of user-minutes spent in a region before it could be counted as active. Let’s see how well your own grid or even SL does when we apply that criteria. As you very well know, most regions see very little activity.

          • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

            One issue I have with the whole region counting debate, is that no matter which way it evolves, it misses the point as far as users are concerned.

            Users enjoy exploring regions that are full of content they find interesting, or they enjoy building a world of their own, or they enjoy meeting up with friends or associates.

            Kitely has a directory that helps people find such places, and Second Life has their own variation on that idea. Here, though, it seems more like the argument is focusing exclusively on an admittedly inadequate counting system, rather than simply promoting unique advantages of each service and then letting the customer decide.

            Ilan makes a valid point that whatever standard is applied to measuring the activity on one grid must be applied equitably on all grids. Alex makes the valid point that current counting methods have shortcomings, which also applies across grids and is not unique to Kitely. Arbitrarily declaring that three months of inactivity is grounds for leaving a region out of a count, or that a certain number of user minutes should be the measure that determines the active status of a world, seems to lead nowhere, especially since disagreement over the measurement standard to use is sure to ensue.

            What about stepping back from this debate and focusing on the real draws for users: value, service and compelling content.

            For many years, the Toyota Camry was the best selling car in America. So, I bought two Chevrolets anyways. I didn’t go shopping for a statistic, rather I went shopping for the best automobiles to fit my needs and desires. I think this is how people approach virtual worlds as well.

          • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

            wait??? there are actually people who lie???? even people who say they are not lieing? No worries, they will all be sorted out, likely sooner, than later-)) [disclaimer: not referring to anybody here, or, over there, or elsewhere…it is not for me to cast the first stone because, I, too, am a sinner; nor am I someone who lives in a glass house and throws rocks]

          • karelboard@aol.com' wolftimber says:

            “Maria keeps saying you give 1 region free 100K prims when in fact you do
            not give that region FREE. You give 6 hours credit for the user to use
            the region. Free is Free and never charged.”

            You should know by now as an adult that there is no such thing as FREE, or free forever, there is ALWAYS a catch somewhere, it could be as simple as signing up- providing your email and contact details (like when you sign up for Farcebook) and then they turn around and SELL that information to spammers, advertisers and more- the name and email, and other details are worth MONEY, companies, magazine pubvlishers, newspapers etc all make a fortune “renting” out mailing lists to other companies per thousand names or hundred thousand names.

    • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

      Hi Alex,

      I think you make a valid point that region counting has shortcomings. That’s why I made note at the end of the article that there is a discussion worth having about regions that serve no visitors, or even the world owner (in other words, abandoned). Although I think it would take an article to flesh out some of the complexities of this topic, here are a few of the points I’d put on the table:

      1. Region counting does not come from a universal standard of evaluation. That is, there is no universal agreement on what should count as a region, versus what should count as “dead” space. Therefore, if we hold one company to a standard, every company must be held to the same standard. But that’s easier said than done considering the various ways virtual worlds are implemented and used and defined.

      2. The notion of “region” itself is changing. With megaregions and varregions, as well as stand-alone regions and concepts such as ‘worlds’, the boundaries between discrete spaces, at least for counting purposes, is blurring.

      3. Region counting is only one metric, and not necessarily the most important metric, depending on the needs of the customer.

      4. Merit based on activity is hard to impossible to evaluate only looking at a clock. Imagine a teacher that creates a virtual classroom that is only used twice a year. Is that any less worthy than a store with daily customers?

      Some of the concerns expressed about free accounts leading to abandoned virtual spaces could be addressed by a no-cost lease that requires periodic renewal. Not unlike the clean up that occurs on OSGrid, this would cut down on so-called “abandoned” regions. However, such a system would only be fair if every service that offers promotional free regions did the same thing, with the same timing for clean up.

      So what we have now is a not entirely satisfying system of counting. But all is not lost, either for the grid owners or for the users.

      First of all, there seems to be an implicit suggestion that people value a service based on the number of regions. But I have read such varying perspectives on what users want, I doubt this is what happens. If people simply want to be in the largest grid for free, there is still Second Life or OSGrid. And although Kitely shows a high region count, those worlds are not connected like the Second Life Mainland, even when they are up and running, so does it really matter how many regions Kitely has? At the same time, some grids with lower region counts have more active users, which would appeal to those looking for a higher probability of social experiences i.e. InWorldz.

      I think users figure these things out based on their specific needs and desires. In my opinion region counts are more meaningful over time, and even then, more as in indicator of growth than specific value. Furthermore, as the issues of region counts, active user counts and so on have been written about and commented on, the imperfections have become disseminated and the various shortcomings are already well understood.

      It’s a bit like the Verizon commercial (for those in the U.S.) where Verizon shows a map of the country and claims they have far more coverage than AT&T. Whether that is true or not, what do I care? As long as AT&T has service in every place I’m likely to be, my metric is going to be based on service, cost and so on, not total coverage.

      Personally, I would use Kitely if it had 10 regions and 5 active users, because it fulfills my needs, especially as a world builder. But if Kitely had 10,000,000 regions and as many users, but all my friends and family and business associates were on InWorldz, my choice would be to make my virtual home where my relationships live. And I think overall, most people are doing the same.

      P.S. I’d still keep my Kitely worlds too!

      • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

        I think the point alex is trying to make is a new person enters a grid and has a option of a free region. Now the person decides this grid is not for him or her and like so many others just leaves. Question is are those regions that where made at 1 time get counted in the overall monthly report, Being they sit empty for months on in. Now we mentioned this a few stories back and Maria jumped in and said there in Cold Storage. Well if every grid owner did that each one would have over 10k in regions hoping one day so and so will return.
        Yes I agree Kitely does things not of the norm in opensims, So with that said and the definition of a virtual world is in question Maybe best not to include such a grid in opensim stats.

        • I’d rather see every other grid start offering free regions to THEIR new users, and keep ALL of them in the stats.

          But, in any case, it’s a moot point, because Kitely doesn’t release data about how often a particular region is used or isn’t used. In fact, no grid does.

          A more pressing concern for me is megaregions, varregions and standard region equivalents. If you have a megaregion the size of four regular regions, most grids report it as four regions. Which is all good.

          But when a grid has a varregion the size of four typical regions, they seem to report it as a single region.

          That’s not as good if, like me, you’re trying to calculate the total land area of OpenSim grids.

          So if you’re a grid that’s rolling out varregions, please include a “standard region equivalent” total somewhere in your stats! Thank you!

          • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

            Maria, You forget to mention that free region is only good for 6 hours before you get billed. Basically where I come from its called Bait and Switch.

          • ilan@kitely.com' Ilan Tochner says:

            Kitely’s service page, right above the Create New Account button states:

            Create Your Free Account and Get a Free World

            Create your free account now, and get a FREE 1-region virtual world!
            That Metered World will use your account’s Free Regions quota so will
            remain available for access indefinitely. We’ll also give you 6 free
            hours in-world to try out your world. You don’t need to give us your
            billing information to get this free trial period, so act now and you’ll
            be able to start building your world within minutes.”

            The terms are clearly stated upfront, there is no bait and switch here.

          • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

            Ok sounds clear and reads clear, So you take the world away after 6 hours? Being you fail to mention above what happens after that Free 6 hours. I`m sure there is a lot of people born at night, Maybe not last night.

          • ilan@kitely.com' Ilan Tochner says:

            “That Metered World will use your account’s Free Regions quota so will remain available for access indefinitely.” means we don’t take it away after 6 hours.

            This paragraph was quoted from the bottom of our Services page that provides all the details of how we bill our users. I hope you agree that I don’t need to quote the entire page when referring to parts of it. People reading that page would have seen that we don’t charge you when people on Premium accounts visit your world and that “If your account runs out of KC then everyone who isn’t on a Premium Account will be prevented from visiting your Metered Worlds until you get more KC.”

            Joe, if you comment on the contents of some website page (in this case
            Kitely’s Services page) at least do other people reading your comments
            the courtesy of actually reading that page first. Otherwise you start looking silly… 🙂

          • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

            but looking [and being] silly is so much fun!!!!!! [so is insanity, but, I digress]

          • arpholdings@gmail.com' AviWorlds says:

            Ilan; is the region or the world after the 6 hours expires free? In other words; Am I able to use this region for free after the six hours?

          • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

            Actually, according to this; http://www.peterrussell.com/Odds/pop.php there are 4.17 births per second…thus, lots of new peons are born at night, and even last night……………………….LONG LIVE THE LABOR FORCE!!

            If you meant, something along the lines of, “I didn’t just fall off a tomato truck”, or, “I may not be the sharpest knife, but I am not the dullest either”, or, “My elevator does rise to the top”…that might be more appropriate-))

          • Where I come from it’s called the fremium model. You get a certain set of functions for free, a set of functions which are useful within a particular scope. You pay for additional functionality. The company makes money when a certain percentage convert.

            And it would only be “bait and switch” if Kitely was promising anything more than what you actually get. Say, they promise 100 hours, and all you get is six. That would be bait and switch.

          • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

            Ok was wondering what this really meant being you wrote it on this Hypergrid Business. How to get a free* 100,000-prim region on Kitely
            Myself and I`m sure a lot of others want to know.

          • I don’t understand the question. The region is free. You never have to pay for the region. But, while other people can access it, you only access it yourself for six hours — that’s why there’s an asterisk after the word “free.” In the article, I listed some ways such a region could be useful.

            In any case, anybody who wants to do their own stats can go do them. Or, better yet, stop obsessing over this! Go build something!

          • joeybhyx@gmail.com' Joe Builder says:

            Only pointing out the many flaws in what’s posted on grid stats is all.

          • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

            NO!! it is MUCH more entertaining and amusing to obsess!! [to excess!!][and with an abscess thrown in!!]

          • arpholdings@gmail.com' AviWorlds says:

            Im sorry but kitely shoud word this out correctly.
            Should be Get 6 hours free usage time credit when you sign up.
            Thats really what kitely is giving free here. Not the region.
            Free region means you get a free regjon, no ifs and buts

          • arpholdings@gmail.com' AviWorlds says:

            Look there is a difference between free and TEMPORARY FREE.
            We give 1/4 sim of land with 1025 prims to everyone for Free. No charge after 6 hours.
            You can also SELF HOST your own region/S free. I dont see a whole blog page dedicated to AviWorlds here.

          • sphere1952@gmail.com' Jim Williams says:

            I’ve taken to being a gypsy lately, moving my sim from grid to grid as the waves pass by and I find necessary. How to you count my 6 regions? (The latest Opensim offering has been a real tidal wave.)

        • lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

          Yes, I acknowledged Alex’s point; I indicated that the region counting we have is not completely satisfactory on all counts, and the unit of measurement, the region, is becoming fuzzy as new region configurations become available, such as varregions. However, I do not see any reason whatsoever to jump from that to dropping Kitely from region counts, nor would I promote dropping any other grid either. In fact, the point of my comment was to say that counting imperfections are an issue with many grids for different reasons, and further, that region counts are not necessarily a meaningful cause for contention in terms of how services are valued by real users. For myself, I see region counts as general indicators of growth and contraction, which is also how I see active user counts. In absolute terms I’m not sure either measure should be over emphasized on its own.

          The issue of the definition of a virtual world came up in a different comment, and again, my point was that Kitely worlds are just as much virtual worlds as offered by other grids, by virtue of having an overwhelming preponderance of the qualities that have traditionally been associated with virtual worlds; additionally, Kitely uses recently developed capabilities (in terms of technology in the world – the cloud and on-demand access) that I argue add value to their service without demoting them whatsoever from virtual world provider status.

  5. lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

    You’re right, Kitely is not designed to put all worlds on a single grid like the Mainland of Second Life. And when that kind of concurrent world deployment is desirable or necessary, Kitely may not be the right choice of hosts. There are ways to simulate that kind of concurrency; for example, five people can start five Kitely worlds and hop between them instantly, but in the sense of walking from one world to another, Kitely doesn’t do that.

    Even in Second Life, a large percentage of regions are private islands. You cannot see neighboring regions from those islands. So, the fact that all the regions are up and running concurrently really makes no practical difference – they are invisible. (Second Life does allow multiple regions to be joined into an estate allowing multi-region visibility; likewise Kitely has the capacity for megaregions with multiple region concurrency – visibility and access.)

    Since my preference is for a private island, and since having a private island in Kitely offers the same level of immersion as a private island in Second Life, I find the Kitely service to be affordable and far more secure. Besides the fact that I can have a world up to 16 regions in size for a tiny fraction of the cost of a SL private island, the OAR download capability alone is worth its weight in prims.

    There are some differences between Kitely features and the features available in Second Life, as well as other grids. As you mentioned, if you need chickens to be breeding while you’re away, Kitely will not work. I suspect there is a way to write breeding programs to simulate away time, but that’s probably beside your point. I suspect the issue is more about the sense and feeling one has about their virtual world. If we leave a virtual world running while no one is in it, it more literally mimics the real world that (thankfully) continues whether we are in it or not, and for some, that is a necessary aspect of feeling that their virtual world is real.

    I would only add that it’s easy for me to accept both systems as valid implementations of whatever one means by the expression “virtual world”. In fact, the term “virtual world” has been challenged repeatedly in current writings on such things. “Immersive world” is probably more useful, but hasn’t fully caught on. In any event, it won’t be about the words we chose, but it will very much be about what activities we can perform. Kitely worlds can be used for such a wide-range of activities that fulfill the true effects of persistence and connectivity that it seems to me completely inaccurate to describe them as anything but virtual worlds.

  6. karelboard@aol.com' wolftimber says:

    Well I HAD a post in here, and sure enough the new moderator removed it just like I suspected would happen for the slightest reason, I’m going to post what I posted here- on my G+ group “Avatar safe haven” so people can see exactly what’s being “moderated” here, as fopr me I’m sorry I bothered to even return and comment in here again , adios, please BAN me from posting so I don’t accidentally forget someday and post in here, I removed my other posts as well.

  7. sphere1952@gmail.com' Jim Williams says:

    If I drop my network aware visitor counter base station onto a Kitely region then all my visitor counters around the Metaverse are going to be very unhappy. The assumption that no one there equals nothing happening is faulty, and going to get more faulty over time.

    • trrlynn73@gmail.com' Minethere says:

      I would love to have something like that. As it is now I have to go to several places and inworld [but not with Kitely due to their nice history webgui] to check visitors…but, tbh, I hardly care anymore anyways.

  8. karelboard@aol.com' wolftimber says:

    “Maria keeps saying you give 1 region free 100K prims when in
    fact you do not give that region FREE. You give 6 hours credit for the
    user to use the region. Free is Free & never charged.”

    My reply:

    should know by now as an adult that there is no such thing as FREE, or
    free forever, there is ALWAYS a catch somewhere, it could be as simple
    as signing up- providing your email and contact details (like when you
    sign up for Farcebook) and then they turn around and SELL that
    information to spammers, advertisers and more- the name and email, and
    other details are worth MONEY, companies, magazine pubvlishers,
    newspapers etc all make a fortune “renting” out mailing lists to other
    companies per thousand names or hundred thousand names.

  9. lmpierce@alcancemas.com' lmpierce says:

    She meant “flak”.