War breaks out over WWII RP on InWorldz

InWorldz residents are circulating a petition demanding the removal of a World War II-themed role playing build from the grid.

“I cannot support a grid that makes it possible for people to play a role playing game based on World World II,” resident Suzan de Koning told Hypergrid Business. “There are other possibilities to play soldier games without using Nazi crosses.”

Screen shot of the WWII role play sim. (Image courtesy Suzan de Koning.)

She added that she has given up her land in InWorldz because of how strongly she feels about the issue.

De Koning added that, as a European, she is particularly sensitive to this kind of role play because of her family’s experiences in World War II.

“I, as a European, do not understand how this is even allowed,” she added. “In most countries in Europe, it is not.”

Although de Koning was the only one who agreed to go on the record about the issue, she is not the only InWorldz resident who contacted Hypergrid Business about it. There is also an on-going discussion on the InWorldz forums.

World War II themed role play is not illegal in the United States, however, and World World II-themed entertainment of all kinds is popular — movies, books, video games and more. In fact, because of the first amendment of the US Constitution, Nazis are even allowed to march in public parades.

InWorldz is a US-based grid.

InWorldz founders have responded to the questions posted on the forums and to the petition by asking for evidence that the build in question goes beyond standard World War II roleplay to actually promoting the Nazi cause.

David Daeschler

David Daeschler

Show us evidence that this is some kind of neo-Nazi or hate group in a disguise and we’ll take action on it,” said InWorldz co-founder and CTO David Daeschler — also known as Tranquillity Dexler in-world — in a forum post. “Everything else is conjecture until you have proof.”

He also pointed out that role play often involves scenarios that are painful for some people, such as murder, genocide against Native Americans, or slavery.

“If we start drawing lines now we’ll also have to force every sim that depicts any kind of slavery to close down as well,” he wrote. “That would mean no Civil War sims, and no sims depicting any kind of sexual trade. After all, there is a disturbing amount of human trafficking that is still occurring to this day. There are 27 million girls enslaved across the world with an average age of 14. Yet people still have the freedom to fantasize about being traded.”

Daeschler told Hypergrid Business that he has personally been to the build in question.

“I have visited the sim looking for any evidence of activity beyond someone setting up a role play sim based in Berlin in the 1940s and haven’t found any,” he said. “The ‘camp’ that people are referencing looks like a standard run-of-the-mill prison camp with neatly made bunk beds and could possibly be used for “free the captives” RP. It is does not resemble the racks photographed and used in nazi concentration camps. The only Nazi symbols and propaganda are swastikas that would have been found during the time period and most of the sim is pretty barren. I think that a group of people are trying to force our hand on this because it is offensive, but I have yet to hear or see anything that would support the broad accusations being made.”

Some residents have said in the forums that they are closing down their sims in protest.

Some residents have said in the forums or in private emails to Hypergrid Business that they are closing down their sims in protest.

InWorldz LLC partner Beth Reischl — also known as Elenia Llewellyn in-world — was even more definite.

I will make it simple and concise here,” she wrote in a post on the forum. “As long as hate speech, racism, etc., are not being espoused by the role play, but is a first person shooter or historical role play of what happened, then it is not a violation of the terms of service. “There is nothing wrong with exploring the darker side of history, sometimes it leads us to fascinating conclusions or possibilities… If it bothers you so much, do not go there.”

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maria@hypergridbusiness.com'

Maria Korolov

Maria Korolov is editor and publisher of Hypergrid Business. She has been a journalist for more than twenty years and has worked for the Chicago Tribune, Reuters, and Computerworld and has reported from over a dozen countries, including Russia and China.

  • My mother is Jewish. She is the only one of her family to have survived. I have no maternal grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins because of the Nazis.

    I do not know all the ins and outs of the sim in particular. I left InWorldz last year due to other issues so I haven’t gone to look for myself.

    If the sim truly supports Nazism, neo or otherwise, then it should be shut down and the owners banned.

    However, if it is indeed a historical sim, then, as distasteful as the subject is, it should be left running. Hitler and the Nazis were a terrible evil, but they are a part of our history. If we eradicate all references, all records, all discussion of this horrible period then we also do away with the warnings of that time.

    If it is a historical re-enactment, then let it run, Lest we Forget.

    • Mircea Kitsune

      First of all, sorry to hear that… that’s really bad. As for the sim, I only have something against it if it also promoted nazi culture / beliefs / evils as principles (real life related). If it was an RP sim where say, you could play as a nazi… as dark as the topic is, that is part of free expression. And since SL isn’t an environment where you can really harm anyone, I don’t believe people should take real offense to this. People must try not to react based on personal feelings, and only take actions against things which are practically harmful.

    • crap!! I just upvoted this along with David!! I am doomed!!!!!

  • Mircea Kitsune

    It’s called Second Life and not First Life for a reason. I don’t get why some people react so strongly to anything related to darker subjects, as long as they’re done in an environment where they are not a danger. I myself hate communism horribly… but wouldn’t feel offended to see an RP sim where you can play as a communist. Although I would have a problem if the sim’s purpose is actively and intentionally promoting nazism… I hope it wasn’t the case for this, else the reaction is somewhat justified cuz that really sucks.

  • Suz Blessed

    I also do not now if they promote nazism and i never said this. I only think a sim like this is hurting many people. We as grids do not allow sims with child pornography or other things that hurts people or will give people ideas that are simply not right. So why allow a sim with Nazi and SS stuff on it? Historical education is a sim like a museum where people can walk and maybe see a movie, like in rl. I think the owners of the grid did not even know about this sim so they must have a chance to take action and investigate. Another thing i want to mention is that i know others wrote Maria, but their names are not mentioned. Does this mean they do not stand for what they wrote to her ? I simply cannot close my eyes and look away when i see things like this….many people did in the past and later say: ‘ I did not know’. And this is really all i want to say about this subject and i leave it all up to IW’s owners.

    • Because representing a Nazi SS officer is not the same as actually molesting a child, maybe? Plus the fact that child pornography is actually illegal?

      From what I can tell, this sim was a representation of a very bombed out Berlin (which in and of itself is hardly a resounding endorsement of the Nazi ideology), there was no clear incitement to religious or ethnic hatred or any clearly illegal activities going on. Hundreds of video games, books and movies place themselves in this period. In fact, I have not seen ANY evidence that this sim was promoting anything questionable at all.

      Just because you have an opinion of what a historical sim “should be”, you think it should be imposed on other people? Careful, lest you start to walk the path of those you are decrying. We live in a free society. You are free not to visit sims you find morally objectionable, but trying to force your opinion of what is morally acceptable on everyone else is repugnant, small minded and petty.

      • Suz Blessed

        OK, I refuse to make this personal. All i want is that people try to respect each others feelings and with a sim like that, you do Not respect the feelings of many europeans who still deal with this past. This sim does not tell one person anything about WWII. I see no signs with info about WWII only crosses and SS signs, even the LM is a picture of Adolf Hitler. I am totally not against education. And we should educate people so we will try not to repeat history. But if a stranger would come to those sims he does not get any info at all. Only Nazi images and a sound of soldiers marching through the streets. This is an endless discussion about what is and what is not allowed in the gaming world. And people will never agree on that and that is ok. But to ask a bit of respect for each others feelings is that to much to ask for ???

        • It is fine if it offends you. But to demand the sim be closed down because it offends you is not. I was not trying to make this personal either, I am simply pointing out to you that who are YOU (or anyone, for that matter) to judge what is or is not morally acceptable?

          If no laws were being broken, the best thing you can do is avoid it and not support the sim with your patronage. To demand that the sim is removed/banned or whatever is imposing your world view on other people, which is wrong if your trying to operate in the spirit of freedom of speech.

          There are hundreds of books, movies and video games that place themselves in this period of history. Perhaps the owner simply wanted a combat style WW2 sim. Perhaps it had nothing to do with education per se. Which I also think is fine.

          Romans liked to torture Christians AND Jews, so should we close down any Roman themed sims too, just in case?

        • No one is *forced* to visit this sim. Anyone who goes there *chooses* to go there. It is pretty silly to complain that the water you are bathing in is too hot when anyone could see that it is boiling. If you don’t like war based RP, don’t do war based RP.

        • lmpierce

          Hi Suz,

          I hear that you feel sensitive to the issues of WWII. For some time now, I’ve been watching documentaries on WWII and the devastation in Europe was appalling by any measure. I might also mention that the American war in the Pacific had similar horrific aspects, but it’s also true that the American mainland and civilian population was spared the pain felt by whole countries left in ruin.

          From what you’ve written, I don’t think the sim owner was being disrespectful to the pain of Europeans. For one thing, you cited only photographs and iconic imagery. By themselves, these are essentially stock photos from history. It may be that these images themselves are enough to concern you, but they are so ubiquitous in the media of history, it doesn’t seem fair to single out this sim for special attention for their display.

          It’s undoubtedly true that to live in this world is to encounter many things we each find uniquely offensive. Since entering the sim is a choice, it’s rather easy to avoid this offense. What would be more troubling would be the discovery of a group using a sim to promote an agenda of destructive action. But what I think many here are trying to say is that there are serious risks and consequences to jumping from concern to reproach and accusation, direct or implied.

          This may seem somewhat ‘American’ in tone, since ‘freedom of speech’ is so highly valued in the U.S. But that doesn’t mean there is a lack of sensitivity over the past and the crimes committed against millions of innocent people. And despite the emphasis on freedom of expression, Americans do not condone violence against innocent people, or the expression of such intentions…

          We just have to be careful about our judgements, because as others have noted, being aggressively judgmental and imposing those judgements is itself something to be guarded against.

  • Well, ok, so now HGB is the inwz drama website??? That has to be worse than even all the darn Kitely mentions!! It’s madness, I tell ya, it’s Madness!!

    btw, and more importantly, I agree with anyone who does not want such regions in a grid….they can always just go do their own simulator[s]…can someone let them know this? teach them? Then they can do what they wish and bother nobody with their nonsense, unless, of course, the drama is what they wanted, in the first place.

    Any of those folx going to speak up for themselves or are we all just going to do yet more conjecturing and posturing and opinionating? nvm…..

    • I was actually planning to ignore this issue since it seemed like an internal matter, and plus in the U.S. it’s not really something we get *too* worked up about. We allow our Nazis to march in the streets so we can laugh at them.

      It turned into a story when people started taking down their regions.

      I think this issue raises some interesting questions. Such as: what does a grid do when some of its residents don’t want to be associated with other of its residents?

      Second Life had to deal with this with the X-rated stuff, and moved them to their own continent, and set maturity levels. But maturity levels won’t protect people from historic roleplay. I guess you could set up more maturity levels — one for X-rated content, one for violent content, one for historically sensitive content, one for religious content..

      Another option is to limit the amount of potentially offensive materials as much as practical, so that most of the grid is very sanitized and appropriate for the vast majority of people — and folks with potentially offensive content go and start their own grids.

      I’m with you there, Minethere. This is exactly the kind of thing that private mini-grids were created for. Host it on a server in a country where it’s legal, and do whatever you want to do. Turn on hypergrid connectivity so that people can teleport in from other grids, so that you don’t lose access to potential users. Or keep it turned off, and limit access to just people you know.

      • I hear ya, my main point is that nowhere have I seen any comments by the actual region owner, even in the inwz forums, for which i read about this in my morning reading some hours back.

        Of course the inwz owners know who it is, why have they not asked them to speak up publicly? it is a simple thing to do.

        The region renters obviously know they are the brunt of drama…witchhunts there are common and I know firsthand people IM the hell outta people they don’t like and do abuse reports and whatnot, and since some of the people saying stuff in their forums are those who speak up often, what’s up with that?

        And, at the very least, it would not be similar to all the SL issues that crop up so often and people go on and on about.

        And, really, who really knows if any actually take down their regions, some might say they will, come might actually do it, some may abandon their parcels, who really knows for sure. Only if they say so, like one did here, already.

        Similar to your last article on inwz drama, the additional moderation did not work, the person who was the point of that article came back, others left the forums, this will blow over and likely not be anything at all.

        Heck, I don’t even see it’s value for showing even more people all the drama that comes from that direction. And, frankly, I usually would…lol

        But the bottom line is, that I think anyone can understand, that the region owner and those involved with all that ONLY NEED TO SPEAK UP! why have they not, is anybody actually pointing them to all this drama at all?

        It is such a simple thing to do, and by the inwz owners, why has not it been done…yet?

        And, really, can’t anyone here just go see for themselves, get in IM with the involved parties, and even let us all know that way? something?

        Why does all this drama have to be exposed in the first place? The inwz owners could have dealt with it immediately, themselves…it’s insane, really.

        And, as we agree, someone just let them know they can do their own thing on their own, it is not rocket surgery…why has nobody even done that?

        Just as Marstol said in this, “The idea that privately held companies must provide people with constitutional freedoms is ludicrous” which is absolutely true, and it’s not like inwz has not done such things in the past.

        • If I were them, I would not comment either. It is not worth responding to this sort of outcry, IMO.

        • Albert Elson

          “Of course the inwz owners know who it is, why have they not asked them to speak up publicly? it is a simple thing to do”
          Why should the sim owners say anything at all? They do not have to account to the drama queens and their witch hunt. Just to many bored people with sad lives that feel better about themselves when they are spreading their unhappiness.
          The person who should be banned is the people like Judge Judy Kessler and others behind this petition for encouraging other people to grief and harass the users of this sim.

          • DJtommy Seetan

            No one has encouraged ANY ONE to grief any sim.. If someone is griefing then they should be the ones banned NOT someone that started a petition about their concerns…. It is their right to voice their concerns. I am sure what ever happens with this there WILL be some pissed off people. Some will leave I am sure… NOT Everyone will be happy no mater the outcome….. The founders of Inworldz have a tough decission ahead of them. The have to go by the LEGAL stuff with their decission No matter if the agree or not

          • Wow, first Lion and now you!! I feel like I have been blessed and gone to Heaven!! lol…good to see you post here also Tommy.

            You guys should read up on other articles here, lots of interesting things going on in the Meta.

            Is there other outworld places this is being discussed, that is publicly available to read? [I mostly just like reading stuffs]

            xoxoxoxo to Daisy-))

          • Actually, Judy is one of the few sane voices in that grid, tho she, of course, gets much grief due to that.

            I always thought people such as her should find places where they can get away from such nonsense, and find it sad they do not know this or fully understand it, they would be much happier.

            So the, for example, whomever you are, the pot calling the kettle black, would be happy, and so would she…a win-win!!

            otoh, sanity is highly overrated!!

      • Marstol Nitely

        Maria, I’m not sure what part of the country you live in or what you consider *too* worked up? But I’ve lived all over the United States and people do get worked up. There have been riots when Nazi’s marched or threatened to march in parades. I’d say that’s pretty worked up. I usually agree with you, but I think you are way off on this one and I’d really appreciate it if you’d stop implying that we in the US are blase about the subject.

        • I have seen folks get worked up about it too, Marstol. I have seen courts rule that free speech is free speech, even if we don’t like what is spoken. The nazis show up at some public events, so do those asshats from Westborough Baptist. I hate what they say and do, but defend their rights to rally and protest publicly. As soon as we start banning people from expressing themselves, which is what Inworldz would be doing if they shut down this sim, then we are as bad as they are and the battle is lost.

          • Marstol Nitely

            Not exactly sure where you think the paragraph above suggests we shut down free speech Stephanie? But I can assure you that is not my intention.

            I would like to point out that free speech is a constitutional right that is required to be provided by public (meaning government) entities. That’s why Nazi’s can march in public parades and the Westborough whatever’s are allowed to be publicly vile. That’s also why people are allowed to protest against them.

            Private companies do not have the same requirements. For instance, this publication is owned by Maria Korolov. She and Lawrence (because she appointed him moderator) are allowed to moderate the comments on this page as they see fit. When they take comments down that they feel are incendiary or liable, they are not infringing on free speech because they have no requirement to provide it.

            The Inworldz founders can do whatever they want to do. It’s their grid. They don’t have to do what I, or you, or anyone else thinks they should do. I never suggested that they do have to. I did did state my opinion and tried to point out the fine line between some of the scenarios that Tranq mentioned. Perhaps it was too nuanced. I obviously didn’t get my point across.

            I find it interesting that when people speak out against something, everyone starts shouting about free speech. Isn’t speaking out about something we don’t like free speech?

          • Oh yes it is. I am fine with speaking out. (I would not be fine with a place being shut down over this. I would consider leaving Inworldz altogether if they made a decision that made me think they might use their power to prevent free expression on the grid.) Marstol, I did not mean you were against free speech. I was actually agreeing with you that I have seen people get worked up over this in rl venues too. My comments about free speech were directed at those who have been trying to use their right to free speech to curtail others’ right to free expression.

  • Marstol Nitely

    I don’t know that I would characterize World War II entertainment as popular in the United States. Just because something exists or has a market, doesn’t make it popular. There’s also a big divide between World War II entertainment and Nazi role play. The Holocaust Memorial Museum is in Washington, D.C., but I wouldn’t equate it with Nazi’s. It is a place of solemn remembrance and a memorial to those who suffered atrocities at the Nazi’s hands. I have never seen Nazi’s march in a parade in the US, but I have seen news about riots when they tried.

    The idea that privately held companies must provide people with constitutional freedoms is ludicrous. Ebay allows the sale of World War II memorabilia, but does not allow the sale of Nazi memorabilia. They recently refused to sell a Nazi car that would have likely brought them a large commission.

    As for sex trade, if it is depicted as and by consenting adults that’s up to them. If it involves 14 year old children or people pretending to be that age, well then you are edging on the wrong side of some mighty serious Federal laws. If there are a bunch of Klu Klux Klan members operating a “Civil War” sim, then yes, it should probably be shut down. The fact that the person running the RP identifies himself as Hitler pretty much says it all. Calling an activity something innocuous when it’s not, shouldn’t give it carte blanche.

    You can put lipstick on a pig, but…

  • lmpierce

    There are benign tyrannies as well as malignant tyrannies. The modern high-speed occurrence of knee-jerk calls for bans and boycotts is both an alarming and unfortunate form of tyranny, even as it purports to end self-declared evils.

    What a democratic and civilized society calls for is open debate on issues. Simply declaring something to be wrong because some individuals object to it is neither democratic or civilized.

    So in this matter, the founders of InWorldz have been responsible and explored the sim in question. Let’s pause and make note of that as a positive. Secondly, historically accurate re-creations have been a tradition in societies since time immemorial. Role playing is how humans explore alternatives, especially to prevent further harm, while examining to experiences they seek to understand.

    Overambitious banning and shaming is itself a social depressant at best and oftentimes a wrong in and of itself.

  • Han Held

    Roleplay is roleplay -however I want to address what I read on their forum; which was that people were seeing members of this group standing around spouting fascist attitudes and opinions.

    Personally, I’ve seen multiple communities fall to anti-semitism and racism because they either tolerated or weren’t able to adequately police the issue.
    This is a community issue -the membership of inworldz itself has to come together and actively repudiate nazism, racism, anti-semitism and other bigotries.

    If they don’t, then Inworldz will experience a “boiling frog” phenomenon where inch by inch the community gradually begins to accept these attitudes as normal and reasonable, until finally the grid will be exclusively white surpremist in attitude, if not in out-right policy.

    This is something that has to come from the bottom on up. The community has to shun the events of people they know to hold these views, boycott their merchandise and call them out at every opportunity. The staff cannot be counted on to do this, it’s the people’s responsibility to make known that fascists aren’t welcome and then make it stick.

    • Han Held

      One thing I want to add -I know there are WW2 regions in Second Life and there are people who roleplay nazis; I don’t recall there being much fuss about that going on over there, however.

      • I think you are dead wrong that ” Inworldz will experience a “boiling frog” phenomenon where inch by inch the community gradually begins to accept these attitudes as normal and reasonable, until finally the grid will be exclusively white surpremist in attitude, if not in out-right policy.” There have been Klansmen in the United States for a very long time. They are idiots. Most people KNOW they are idiots. They have certainly not become the mainstream. I am more afraid that draconian censorship will lead to more draconian censorship. I applaud the management at Inworldz for just not going there.

        • Han Held

          Apples and oranges. The internet is a tremendous echo chamber where people with vile opinions re-inforce each other and egg each other on. It’s niave in the extreme to write this off as “just roleplay” that will be confined only to that region.

          This development cannot be taken out of the context of the rising tide of anti-semitism and right wing extremism that is happening across the rest of the internet.

          The inworldz grid and the inworldz community needs to make a clear and unwaving commitment to standing up against racist, antisemetic, sexist, and homophobic attitudes. If they don’t, then the growing right-wing extremist movement will make their home on that grid.

          • Han Held

            In the end, the grid and the community have to decide what values their grid will stand for –or they’ll have that decision made for them.

          • Tranquillity (InWorldz)

            There is a HUGE difference between a WWII RP sim and allowing the presence of active hate groups on the grid. The latter we will not tolerate. There has been no proof submitted to InWorldz ownership that this is anything more than WWII RP based in Berlin in the 1940’s.

          • Han Held

            Good, that’s the response I was hoping for from the Inworldz management. The problem, of course is that many things are said and done “between the lines” and when management is looking the other way. The community needs to be equally comitted to its’ opposistion to hate groups.

  • This reminds me of the few times folks have come to my website (using a link they clicked on in a public forum like Facebook or Twitter) and then gotten all worked up because some of my poems are a little raw. My response, don’t come in my yard if you can’t handle the way I play. No one tps to a re-enactment sim by accident. If a sim is called, Berlin 1939 (or something similar), you should have some clue there might be historical re-enactment going on there. If that makes you queasy, don’t click tp. If you really and truly had no clue that such a sim might include references and rp about WW2, blame your lack of education, not the management of any grid.

    To take another train of logic– I live in the American South. From time to time, I come across homes that bear the confederate flag. Personally, I am perplexed by this choice. I used to be offended by it, but have since then met people who display that flag who are not retro-actionary racists at all. I cannot say that I follow their logic, but it has more to do with regional and family pride than with racism or slavery. My point is that it has never once occurred to me to ask anyone to remove their flags (not even card-carrying KKK members). You can bet I don’t knock on their doors or spend money in their shops, but how they decorate their homes is NOMB.

    And also please consider the hundreds of civil war re-enactment groups in the US. I don’t get that either and have no interest in war rp of any kind. I also have no interest in BDSM or Gor. But in the case of historical re-enactment, like civil war and WW2 rps, an argument can be made that the best way to learn about the past is to actually walk through it and that the best way to keep something from recurring is to keep it from being forgotten. War rps definitely do that. I cannot claim to know that is the intent of the WW2 rp in Inworldz; I have never been there and have no intention of seeking it out (see that is me exercising my ability not to tp). Maybe the folks running this ARE skin-headed jerks. So what? They have no power if no one goes there.

    I guess what this long post boils down to is this– If it bothers you, don’t go. Feel free to cast your vote by using your time and money elsewhere on the grid. That is, in the end, a far more effective way to shut down something you don’t like than asking the powers that be to exert power I would not want them exerting over anyone.

    • Marstol Nitely

      I live in Las Vegas. Your “raw” would probably rate a “G” on my scale. I don’t have a problem with people flying their freak flag or doing war reenactments or having any sort adult role play (as long as they are adults). I was trying to make the point that there is a difference between role play and hate groups. Tranq cleared that up and I’m good with it.

      • Yep, I agree. Although even a hate group on its own sim where I am not affected– not sure I care. The minute they come to mine, then I squash them like virtual bugs.

  • After sleeping on this, I rummaged through some boxes packed up for years, and found my 5 1/4 floppies [and an old 51/4 drive], and have been playing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_(series) all morning…I expect to continue playing it until all the Nazis are obliterated!!! I shall prevail!!!

  • shawnkmaloney .

    To see another grid/region yanked away from the users, just cuz an owner does not agree with what someone else is doin waaaaaaaay the hell over there,(pointing left). Well that’s the most disgusting part of THIS article to me. Mind your own business folks, and don’t participate in the nonsence you consider nonsence OR what you consider to be a fricken capital offence. THAT would make for a greater virtual experience. . And no, I am still not going to burn any historical books or dvd’s or games with a fricken Swastica on them. I leave that up to the self appointed righteous puritans of this mucked up planet. Hahahahaha. And yes, My Grandmother was German born and lived through that mess, and is patting me on the back with a smile as I fricken type this, what should be UNNEEDED type. 🙂 Now where’s my fricken Lugar, Grandmother???

  • Lion Ewry

    I don’t like to comment on forums or places like this. I know for a fact that many, many people are afraid to do so simply because they know they will be attacked for doing so. But Sometimes a person simply has to stand up.

    I’ve seen it said that this role play sim is just “Virtual” so it does not really hurt anything or anybody and it is all in “good fun”. From the number of angry and painful comments here and elsewhere, I think it is safe to say that a Nazi Role Play sim (complete with an avatar named after the most hated man in the history of the world) triggers REAL LIFE anger and pain in many, many people around the entire globe. From that I believe that the owners of this grid would be on the right side if they changed TOS to ban such places. THIS IS OFFENSIVE. If this sim is allowed to stand, I can only imagine what other “Fun” Role play sims will show up next. So, it seems can MANY other people.

    • Hugs Lion…miss ya you big lug-)) [ps bring some of ur horses to Kitely, ppl want some]

      • Lion Ewry

        Boo! I suppose, by commenting on this nasty thing we stepped in it again huh. Well, what’s wrong is wrong. Actually have pulled back from virtual some. I go on to be with friends, but I don’t do much building anymore. Burned out I guess. Hugs

        • Well, “ok” is a rather subjective word…lol…can’t say more publicly

          I don’t actually go inworld anyplace much anymore myself.

          Nah, you certainly have a right to speak up about things that bother you, this website is actually a decent place to do so.

          Of course, “freedom is another word for nothing to lose” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTHRg_iSWzM

          Email me!! Or use the Kitely forums PM system or IM there or Metropolis Grid. Give Kat a big squishy hug for me-))

      • Lion Ewry

        Glad to know you are doing ok!

    • lmpierce

      Hi Lion,

      Can you be offended without expecting others to conform to your sensibilities? At what point, if any, do you feel we can allow people to have a private expression of their interests that others would would nonetheless still find offensive? I’m sure many find BDSM profoundly offensive. Do you think we should ban such sims because many people around the world find this kind of activity offensive?

      I think the question here is not whether something is simply offensive, but rather, what are the domains of our thoughts and feelings over others.

      • I have actually been contemplating all day how much I dislike seeing adults in child avs. It offends me on some deep-down gut level I cannot even explain. I suppose I could ask for those to be banned too. But should I? Would it be fair for a grid to ban child avs just cuz they give me the creeps?

        I am also offended by slave play. (The sex kind is what I mean here, though I find the other kind abhorrent too.) I wish there were no one anywhere who enjoyed playing dom/sub roles. But, where consenting adults are concerned, is that any of my business? Does the fact that people RP Gor on Gor sims mean someone is more likely to try collaring ME on mine? No.

        As for the specific sim in question, anyone who went there gave their consent when they clicked teleport. There is no way they could not have had some clue there would be some representation of nazis and Hitler involved. It is fine to decide for yourself that it offends you and you are staying away, even to badmouth that sim and all involved every chance you get. Go ahead and exercise your own rights to expression til the cows come home and beyond. But don’t expect an entire grid to fold up and do what you asked just because you asked.

        • I think everyone should be banned except you and possibly Shawn, and of course Lion since he ventured into the discussion-)) Oh, and exclude Anthony who just posted. Being banned is fun and everyone should get the opportunity to experience it!!!

          • besides, it leads to all sorts of fun and new roleplay situations…………………

          • lol miney – that’s true. You haven’t lived if you haven’t been banned from somewhere at least once in your life.

          • ikr, and it’s a fun experience too…I have had such fun RP stuff to do since my couple ‘o ones [that I know of]. I keep asking more places to ban me and they won’t do it, which is rather annoying!!!

            off to play wolfenstein and kill some nazis!!

        • Lion Ewry

          Child Avatars or BDSM does not kill people. Hitler’s war caused the deaths of 40 million people. Enough said. I’m done.

          • Ah but RP does not kill people either. And BDSM in rl CAN kill people. So can adults masquerading as children in order to get close to children. How is pretending to do BDSM activities any less egregious than pretending to be Hitler? We all know that some child avs in sl are used in sexual RP. How is that less egregious than rping the second world war?

          • Albert Elson

            And cowboys killed Indians. Lets close all the western clubs and sims because the Native Americans might be offended. Stop being an idiot and trying to press your morality onto other people. If you dislike the content of another sim. Stay out of it and stop acting like a moron.

          • lmpierce

            Okay, it’s a bit more clear now. For you it’s not about whether people are offended per se, rather your particular sensitivity is WWII and Hitler, and the sim in question is an opportunity to express your disdain of that regime. Nonetheless, the core issue in this discussion is whether our personal sensitivities can or should universally dictate policies at service providers. For some people this would mean no role play with Nazis, for others this would mean no BDSM, and for others it would mean no “whatever” it is that deeply offends them. At that rate, we would have Disneyland everywhere and authentic experience nowhere.

          • Han Held

            In addition, no one is comitting violence in THE REAL WORLD to advance a gorean agenda, you don’t have waves of BDSM practictioners IN THE REAL WORLD going out and assaulting immigrants.

          • Actually BDSM is all about physical and emotional abuse and yes it does happen in the real world. You can’t really be saying it doesn’t? There are even goreans in rl. Not just doing rp, actually trying to *live* it. Do you think that never gets out of hand and no one gets hurt while role-playing violent scenarios? My point is that all RP (even nasty child sex RP– assuming the children are really adults in child avs– and horrifying apartheid RP and the troubling WW2 RP in question) is done consentually and, assuming nothing goes wrong, no one actually gets hurt. In the case of historical RP there is at least the chance that people are learning some history from the exercise.

          • Han Held

            “Actually BDSM is all about physical and emotional abuse and yes it does
            happen in the real world. You can’t really be saying it doesn’t?”
            BDSM involves consenting adults -the larger community actively looks for people who engage in predatory behavoir and pushes them out. There are standards to judge a BDSM community by -the emphasis on “safe sane and consensual”, the rigid and repeated emphasis between fantasy and reality, and the over all concern for the safety of all parties. If any of those are missing, it’s a sign that you’re dealing with a cult –and just like religious cults, they will be condemned by the larger group and people will be warned agains them.

            Maybe you’re unable to distinquish between consensual activity between grown adults and violence comitted against members outside of a community (IE violence from right wingers against immigrants, etc)?

            EDIT TO ADD: abuse DOES Happen in the BDSM community -and for that reason the community has come up with safeguards and practices to prevent it or shut it down.

          • Albert Elson

            I am glad that I live in the United States where my speech is protected. Even the drama mommas have the right to free speech. That is until their words begin to harass another paying customer of Inworldz.
            I find it amazing that there are people who are so bored and unhappy with their pathetic real lives, that they cannot find happiness in fantasy land without dumping drama on others to feel warm and fuzzy inside.
            I am glad that the staff at Inworldz is not listening to whining and hope that they slam the ban hammer down on the cry babies to give them something to snivel about.

  • Rene

    SCOTUS Justice Holmes: it is the principle of free thought—not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate.

    It is to date seemingly not as the posted IW forums hyperbole depiction. Were the claims as so stated, there are so many direct actions one could take, the most powerful being a boycott. That is something a person does to enable their personal responsibility. Instead I find it ironic how the suppression thinking is not that different than the ‘monster’ they depicted. Demanding a grid take action against a group and their regions on your behalf just because you do not like it, is so wrong on many levels. Also, suggesting that people can make their own grid to work around the issue is not particularly helpful, because in similar circumstances, the takedown demand would morph into a demand to black hole that ‘nasty’ grid from the HyperGrid. It ends up the same: a power over others.

  • I think if there are any Jews out there who see this and have seen it they could let their feelings be known, and if the grid cares enough or wants affirmation they could consult the Jewish community ..

  • Albert Elson

    I am offended by all the weirdo BDSM sims in Inworldz, the beastility sims with furries yiffing, the hardcore dark rp sims with people torturing,raping and killing each other in roleplay. Since I am offended by these sims. Shut them all down and make Inworldz into a Chucky Cheese play area that no one can possibly be offended. Why? because I am more special than you and what makes me happy is the only thing that matters. (Insert sarcasm )
    Better yet….. if people are offended by what activities happening in another’s sim, don’t TP in and you will not see anything offensive. Unless you are some kind of drama queen that is bored and like to amuse yourself by interfering with other people’s entertainment.

  • Tree Hugger

    Would you be alarmed to comprehend that foregoing & during world war one
    the advisers to the Ottoman Sultan were all Hebrew as what is present day Israel was part of the ottoman empire and the Hebrew population made up a huge part in the internal governance of the empire
    ( Debatable history)(Does not make what happened in WW2 right)

    Did you know those same advisers devised and created the architecture for the Armenian genocide of 20 million people
    ( Debatable history)(Does not make what happened in WW2 right)

    Did you know only Hebrews were allowed to sell slaves thru Caucasus
    regions of that empire and from 1601 till 1855 they sold 120 million ( Debatable history)(Does not make what happened in WW2 right)

    lets not forget the 2 million Greeks that were slaughtered after the ottoman empire crumbled ( Debatable history)

    50 million killed under Stalin purge ( Debatable history)

    one million hacked to death in Rwanda while everyone looked on including the united states ( Debatable history)

    the baby that dies every 30 seconds as a result of war or human violence

    a woman castrated ever hour for having sexual urges in Africa

    War is hell

    life is unfair says the sheep to the butcher

    History will repeat itself unless we remember

    Is WW2 role play any different then digital reenactments thru the history channel? other then being able to interact. should the history channel be shut down?

    Hitler’s purge’s was just not Jews it was gypsy and gays and anyone else not German looking
    Hitler was of Jewish descent and also bi sexual how ironic

    My point is history is written by the winner and with it wrote now as fact let us not forget in as many ways possible

    The Obersalzberg Speech is a speech given by Adolf Hitler to Wehrmacht commanders at his Obersalzberg home on August 22, 1939, a week before the German invasion of Poland.
    our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It’s a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. I have issued the command – and I will have the anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space which we need. Who, after all, who speaks to this day of the annihilation of the Armenians?

  • Yoshiko Fazuku

    What i wana know is what do the nazis say about this. Why have the chose IWZ to begin their 4th reich

    • possibly because they thought it was à propo? opps, nvm……………………….

  • Mark John Wiseman

    Over the weekend, we visited a small coast town in the United Kingdom, not far from Dover. One of our little pleasures there is to visit a place called ‘The Malthouse’. The Malthouse is an old building long past its originally intended function and is now home to approximately 20 merchants in all kinds of second hand goods. While browsing I came upon a rather unique find; the rare-coin-and-stamp merchant actually had a copy of Mein Kampf, the book Hitler is suppose to have written while the man was incarcerated for his failed coup in 1923.

    Mein Kampf is not allowed to be re-published or distributed in a host of countries, among which are Germany and The Netherlands. The Bavarian authorities (who hold the copyright) have gone to great lengths recently to prevent the copyright from expiring (75 years after Hitler’s death) and have the books become part of the public domain. (Google search: mein kampf copyright expires).

    Apart from the text being censored for its toxic, anti-semitic content the physical book is mainly kept out of circulation because of the sensitivity of what it represent. As Sarge Misfits pointed out, many people still alive today have shattered families, and the contents of that book are the roots to Hitler’s masterplan to cleanse europe and give it back to the pure aryan race.

    The first cultural difference I am seeing in this article and its responses, is that many of the (american?) respondents are viewing the second world war as “the nazi versus the jews”. In fact, one of the respondents suggests that only jews would be legitimised in protesting at the Berlin sim. This is understandable, as humanity condenses historical events to communicable stories as time passes by. From a global perspective, this is the way Hitler will be remembered.

    However, this view totally disregards the atrocities the nazi’s unleashed on all the populations of the european countries during those years. The nazi reign in europe created a trauma across the continent, felt in every town, community and family. The dutch coastal dunes I played in as a child in the 1980’s still had the wooden crosses representing the 8 innocent men of my village who were executed in retribution for an act of sabotage.

    They did not commit the sabotage, but were shot in punishment of the entire community for hiding the saboteurs. Every year, a remembrance service is held in honor of their bravery, in honor of the wives who lost their husbands, in honor of fatherless orphans and a courageous community. These deep traumas that cover the psychological landscape of europe are not resolved by simply burying the dead. It takes time to grieve; It literally takes generations to heal the scars imprinted on the souls of the survivors and their offspring.

    This discussion should not be about whether people have the right, or the freedom to re-enact historical events. I doubt there is anyone around who would have a problem with me recreating a 3D environment based on the Boston Tea Party – No one alive today still carries the scars of those events. I also do not believe the people who set up this Berlin environment are out to recruit people for the militant far-right, or to promote an aryan brotherhood of men in northern europe. Most probably it is exactly what is says it is: a wartime role play environment.

    This discussion should however be about sensibility and sensitivity. It is not enough to say “If you dont like it, dont go there.” hypothetically, someone could build a sim with the twin towers on it, and have you re-enact being a terrorist flying planes into them. All the arguments that are given in the comments to justify the existence of the Berlin sim are equally applicable to this concept.

    Offensive? yes, its incredibly offensive and hurtful towards each and every american. There is no american I know that has not been touched by these downright evil events. One day, in a far future, when all the grief and pain has subsided and the scars are healed, and families have passed many generations till no one can recall how those events impacted their personal lives, it will be acceptable to replay these events. But not now. It would be highly disrespectful.

    So while the staff of InWorldz maintains that they will not take action until they see actual proof that the region is being used to recruit new nazis, they are missing the point here. InWorldz is not just in America, it caters to the planet earth. And like the Bavarian government that guards Mein Kampf from being distributed to the public, InWorldz needs to recognize that some activities of their customers can be experienced as painful reminders of lost family, destroyed communities and widespread evil.

    It is not enough to be on the right side of the law as a company; there is also the need to be on the right side of sensitivity and sensibility when operating on a global scale. I wish them much wisdom.

    • You know, until I read your comment Mark, I was siding with those who say “its just a 3D virtual re-enactment”, and “don’t tp there if you don’t like it”. And I agree, most of these comments have come from Americans.

      I think you have put forward a well argued, and articulate post. The clincher for me was the bit about making a RP sim re-enactment of the Twin Towers. This was a horrendous event that impacted deeply on the psyche of America, and also had an impact around the world.

      These same people that say “live and let live” would be the first to be up in arms if someone were to create a Twin Towers re-enactment on a European based grid.

      There is a point of freedom of speech, and no one has the right not to be offended, but there are some things in life that are so horrendous, so evil, and have touched and been felt by so many, that it is just plain insensitive and stupid.

      • And this is the side of the issue I agree with, many things are simply beyond simple black and white constructions, where a fine tuned human perspective needs to be moved to the forefront.

        As Mark so well states, there is much more than the nazis v jews issue, by far, and this is the root of the issue.

        Still, however, I do think this entire matter should have been dealt with, via that type of thinking, quickly and decisively, having let it go outworld for all to see how inwz owners deal with issues, is, while eye-opening, also showing well that such things can no longer be contained within their own closed walls, which to my eyes, is a testament to larger issues they have.

        This whole negative issue that goes to the core of serious and valid beliefs and experiences should have been dealt with far better and far more quickly.

        And we still have not heard a peep out of the region renters and, one would imagine, their involved players, as to their actual intentions, afaik, it is all still just conjecture ad to their true intentions.

        Tho I have not gone to read their forums yet as I need more coffee and disqus replies got my attention here first.

        But, really, to see some people comment here that I have never seen comment here, who call inwz their VR home, is the most telling thing to my eyes.

        Possibly someone can add some reality to this virtual reality discussion with some actual facts?

      • Actually, in my case, you are wrong. I would not raise an objection to a sim that allows re-enactment of the events of 9/11. I would wonder why on Earth anyone would want to do such a thing, but then I wonder THAT about a lot of things. I would not go there and that would be the end of my concern.

        Some people find historically based war games entertaining. I definitely don’t get it, but to each her own. I recognize that there are useful purposes to RP and re-enactment of history. Until proven otherwise, that is what I will assume is going on with the 1940’s Berlin sim in Inworldz.

        My partner actually visited that sim last night. All this hubub got his curiosity up. He reports that it looks like folks are trying to portray what it felt like to be on the ground in Berlin before, during, and after it got bombed. He is no nazi sympathizer, but said he cannot see anything on that sim that would make him assume it is going to be a recruiting tool for neo-nazis. He also points out that actual neo-nazis are not bright enough to build such a sim and have any sort of accurate historical representation of the period.

        • Ok, well in your case, you wouldn’t, but I could all but guarantee a sizeable number would – and to be honest – quite rightly so.

          It is called bad taste. I believe in freedom of expression and opinion and pretty much the right to do what you like as long as it hurts no one else. I know this because I am pretty quick to tell people they are talking b***sh*t when I think they are, regardless of what others think of me. I am not the slightest bit interested in what others think of me, and I am the type of person that would go it alone against the rest of the tide if necessary…but I also think that sometimes, plain old decent human compassion, and thinking how our actions might affect others is more important.

          I don’t go into Inworldz and have never visited this sim, and so I don’t have any first hand knowledge of what is going on there – and I wont, because I have my own grid, and don’t participate in closed commercial grids any more – and because I have no first hand knowledge of this sim, I wont comment any further without learning more about what is going on.

          However, on face value it just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

          • Gaga

            Hi Justin. I do sympathize with those people that are troubled by this sim and I think InWorldz owners should at the very least force the AH name to be dropped but I have been to the sim and I agree with what

            Stephanie Mesler partner has said, The sim is a re-creation of Berlin in a state of ruin after the firebombing at the end of WWII. To me it looked very much like a shooter video game where the ruins facilitate war gaming. There is a place that looks like an army base and a bunker but the sim is still under construction. There are a few nazi flags too but otherwise there is no evidence that the sim aims to harbor neo-nazi’s. I think, had the owner not taken the name of Hitler then probably this might not have blown up so much. In any event he probably did it to get the publicity which is pretty cynical and heartless in itself but , really, the guy is getting more publicity out of this than he deserves and, I am sorry to say, it seems to me the protesters have given that too him.

            So, I appeal to IW owners; get rid of the name, AH at the very least even if you don’t ban the owner. It is just too hurtful to leave on the grid and bad news for InWorldz.

            Here is the picture I took…

          • lmpierce

            Hi Gaga,

            I went to Amazon.com and stopped counting at 24 the number of books with “Adolf Hitler” in the title. I went to Amazon.co.uk and the second listing is ‘Amazon’s Adolf Hitler Page’ which has 19 listings. Aside from that, the regular pages have a high count of books with Adolf Hitler in the title, and the first book listed is Mein Kampf.

            I’m sure I’d find similar results in libraries around the world.

            I don’t see how removing his name from the title of the sim is consistent with common practice in the world at large, nor do I think it would assuage those who are critical of this sim.

            Rather, the owners of the sim should decide on their title and as adults the obligation is on each of us is to understand the true nature of what is going on, as you have done. It is not realistic to produce anything of historical or political consequence without rankling some percentage of the population, and those calls for apologies, bans and other such responses should be accepted without an expectation of compliance.

          • Gaga

            Personally, I’m trying to see both sides of this and that’s the reason I went to the sim and I honestly only spoke here about what I saw there, and there was nothing to suggest these guys were setting up a neo-nazi hangout under the guise of a WWII combat gaming venue but I do think the upsetting thing that probably sparked this controversy was that the owner cynically used the name, Adolf Hitler. Linden Lab has reserved names you can’t use such as the second name “Linden” and in the past the names had to be chosen from a list anyway which excluded names like Hitler. I do realize that banning one name could lead to calls to ban other historical or religious names like Jesus Christ or Mohamed. There are other people that have committed terrible atrocities as well like Osama bin Larden and Joseph Stalin. Where do you draw the line? I know and I understand the Inworldz owners position on this, that’s why I only made an appeal to them to get rid of that one name in this exceptional case because there are too many people still alive and relatives fully aware of the suffering that happened due to the Nazi war crimes. It’s clear from the protest that there are Inworldz residents deeply offended and hurt by the presence of a sim like this on the grid they have made their virtual space, and worse that the owner’s choice of name is Adolf Hitler. In fact, the choice of name and the glorification of Hitler and Nazism in the profile image seems to me to be the strongest reason the protesters have for objecting and it would be a sensible gesture to ban the name but not the owner. I think that would settle people down a lot and give troubled minds some peace. It would give the protestors something and I think that would be good PR for Inworldz.

        • Mark John Wiseman

          I can honestly appreciate a mind that is open enough to allow every person to conduct their lives as they see fit. For convenience I will assume that you do however draw the line at illegal activities.

          The issue at hand here, is that InWorldz operates in an international setting, and in that context must abide by the laws of the countries it is serving its product too. (See Google, Facebook, Twitter etc in China, Russia or other countries which apply restrictions on free speech).

          To clarify: Amazon might sell copies of Mein Kampf, but it is not allowed to sell these physical books to be delivered in Germany. I use this example, as it is more easily understood what the problem is with a real world item as example.

          InWorlds now has a publicly viewable landmark depicting Hitler raising his right arm against the backdrop of a swastika flag. I am no internet lawyer, but I am pretty sure a german lawyer could now go to court to shut down access to InWorldz servers from within germany; depicting Hitler in this way is a glorification of the man, and posing or showing the Third Reich’s greeting is not allowed in public. Providers ARE responsible for the content they host, and a grid is technically no different than a website when it comes to hosting.

          Now, lets me get to the reason why I had to come back to the comments: that last line: “actual neo-nazis are not bright enough to build such a sim and have any sort of accurate historical representation of the period.”

          I am not sure if this is pure ignorance or wishful thinking, but it is an incredibly dangerous view of the world, and the reason why good sound folk let evil bastards like Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Mussolini, Ceausescu come to power. Just because national socialists have an abhorrent philosophy does not make them dumb, or incapable of building a sim or researching that one period of time their philosophy flourished in europe. They managed to conquer half of the european continent. I bet they have also learned how to work a computer. So unless your partner is an anthropologist who has discovered something we did not know about the intellectual levels of nazi’s, please dont spread prejudicial opinion as if its a stone cold fact.

          Lastly… If you suspect every child avatar to house a pedophile, be consistent and also apply that thinking to someone who enjoys dressing up as, and acting out as a nazi…

      • Mark John Wiseman

        Hi Justin. I hope it is clear that I am not having a dig at americans for the publics general understanding of the second world war. The younger generations here (The Netherlands) are already much less scarred, and they too are being raised with a less involved story about the war, simply because the story is primarily told in school as historical fact, and not passed down daily through the family and community as emotional, personal stories.

        • Ironically, one of the reasons my partner and I could see for doing historical war re-enactments is that it is so easy to forget lessons of the past. I have been told by friends that do civil war re-enactments that is exactly why they do it. I know very modern people who play confederate leadership in these re-enactments. It does not mean they want to revive the slave trade. They want to keep the memory of those nasty times alive so that they are less likely to be repeated. Is it not possible that a sim that re-enacts wartime Berlin, complete with Hitler, might do a better job of keeping the atrocities of the past than text books? (Again, I don’t know that this is the sim owners’ intent. I am just willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong.)

      • Adam Time

        Dude it is your VW do as you please it is pixels. If you want to bring illegal material in then you are subject to RL laws.
        Blow the world up it is your money play and have fun. YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ME. I have absolutely none over you. Show Marines Killing Babbie’s In Vietnam. I am X USMC. It is up to you what you do we fought for that right. For you.

    • Tranquillity (InWorldz)

      There are countries that also outlaw women wearing tight clothing and clothing that shows skin because it is “morally objectionable”. Because of this, should we also make sure all avatars are fully clothed and no female avatars have skin showing? Why should we be any less sensitive to those groups of people? It is VERY offensive to them, as much so as some people seeing a swastica, so clearly we should deal with it at an administrative level.

      A line has to be drawn somewhere. InWorldz will not be dragged into becoming the thought and morality police. That is a slippery slope with no end. We start taking down WWII sims because they have Germany as a playfield, and we’ll be forced to remove others as groups slowly begin lodging complaints against anything that upsets them. GOR, and BDSM are other categories that we’ve received complains about in the past and have dealt with exactly the same as we are dealing with this.

      • Mark John Wiseman

        Why should we be any less sensitive to those groups of people?
        Short answer : You shouldnt. You should comply with the laws of the countries you have residents coming in from. Please note that I am not judging whether or not this sim should exist, that incredibly complex question is up to InWorldz to answer.

      • NikaG

        There are however, laws prohibiting such glorification and insensitive material being made available in Europe. Whilst I also appreciate you are a US based company, the avatar in question declares himself to be English. Therefore, he is in contravention of our laws, with Inworldz facilitating his contraventions. Either this or he is lying to deflect from the truth of his real nationality/identity. This being the case, what does he have to hide? Is he an American?

        Further, the analogy of women wearing tight clothing or BDSM/Gor RP demeans and offends in itself. You cannot seriously compare the right to dress in a certain way, or expressions of deviant sexual behaviour to death camps and genocide can you? You offend the memory of millions who died with such demeaning and foolish rambling. It would be prudent to do your homework before commenting on such a contentious topic and seek not to inflame it further with ill-chosen words. Further, if you wish to speak knowledgeably on the topic please check your spelling. The representative emblem of the one of the most wicked and offensive groups in the history of mankind is unfortunately the Swastika, not the Swastica!! I despair!

        • lmpierce

          Hi Nika,

          The analogy was not a comparison of which practice is more or less evil. The comparison was about the issue of being offended. It has come to be seen that offense is not a quantitive measure, but a personal subjective reaction, sometimes shared by a group, although sometimes uniquely personal. Large populations do, for example, find derisive portrayals of Muhammad as offensive as other populations find offense in neo-Nazism. This does not mean that cartoons that mock Muhammad are objectively as heinous against others as oppressive regimes in terms of the evil that they cause. But the topic of this discussion began with a consideration of the portrayal of Hitler and the symbols of Nazi Germany – there was no suggestion in the original article that evil activities were being perpetrated on innocent people – historical role play was the activity in question.

          The nature of the sim in question has been explored by members of the community, the owners of InWorldz, and explained openly by the owner of the sim. Among those interested parties that voluntarily looked into the matter, everyone agrees that the sim does not encourage or promote neo-Nazism.

          The symbols and images of that era are everywhere in the media – television, movies, cartoons, books. The swastika itself is an ancient symbol affirming life that was usurped and turned into a symbol of evil. The legal restrictions you make reference to are not as unconditional as you propose. It is true that some countries prohibit display of the Nazi flag as a flag or banner, but in situations such as movies, such symbols are usually accepted, as long as they are not considered Nazi propaganda.

          All the same, you may feel offended by the sim in question, period. Hopefully, though, seen in the context of actual real world practices, it remains clear that this sim is by no means an outlier in presenting their expression of historical interest in a critical period of recent human history. For some people, any reminder or reenactment whatsoever of horrific events is disturbing and this is understandable. But participation in a sim is a choice, and like the choice to watch a show, or read a book, participants are free to decline participation on the grounds of sensitivities to the content, without a concomitant obligation on the provider to refrain from producing their presentation.

          • NikaG

            You seem very well informed of their intent and purpose. Perhaps you could share your obvious knowledge of their plans and advise us how you are connected to it? This might alleviate some of the heightened emotion on the topic. I had no idea it was to be of educative value and an historically accurate representation of the most heinous era in modern history. What will they keep in the concentration camp? What will they be displaying on the large screen situated on the sim?
            Perhaps you would be so kind as to illuminate us as to the names of the experts who have deemed this content Neo-Nazi free and fit for consumption. May I also ask your expertise on this topic and your official position in posting on this topic?

          • lmpierce

            Hi NikaG,

            As moderator, I receive notification of, and therefore read, all comments. If you would review the comments in this discussion, you would find that the owners of InWorldz have visited the sim. Other commenters have visited the sim as well, and the sim owners have posted a comment, and a link to further information the clarifies their intentions and purposes.

            These explorations, and the reassurances of those who participated, have given me a high degree of confidence that the sim has non-destructive role-play purposes that include authentic artifacts from the history of WWII. I can see no moral grounds for attempting to persecute them for a historical reenactment per se. Whether the era is heinous or not, it is history, and open to non-violent exploration by anyone with an interest to do so.

            It is understandable that people have had questions about the intentions of the sim, in light of modern worldwide concerns about neo-Nazi activity. Once this concern was ruled out by varied reasonable assessments, it was no longer correct or justifiable to keep applying such claims on this particular sim. Unless you have information to the contrary, any such claims are considered false accusations.

            My suggestion would be to dialogue directly with the sim owners to answer specific questions, such as what will be in the concentration camp, or what will be displayed on their in-world viewer.

            Your question about expertise is a little harder to answer. I might ask, what special expertise do you expect, and do you require it of yourself and all other commenters? Which topic are you referring to, what happens when people are offended, or what are the markers of neo-Nazism?

            Rather than assert any special expertise, I would rather say that I have reasons for the things I say, while understanding that others may disagree, regardless of expertise or experience. I believe the points I’ve made in this thread are valid, and if you disagree with any statements that I make, perhaps you could present your alternative perspective and the reasons behind it.

            I will add that through my life I have had long term relationships with people who were first or second generation from Germany, Mexico, Iran, Canada, Israel and Russia. A good friend of mine lost his mother, who was in one of the Twin Towers that collapsed on 9/11. I have learned not to compare the suffering of one people with another, or one person compared to another, but to accept all suffering and its legacy as legitimate cause for concern.

            However, a world of experts have spoken and written about the terrible wrongs of imposing assertions on individuals and groups that are unfair or invalid, or violate the very principles cultures work to uphold, such as freedom of expression. Hence, I borrow from their expertise when I write carefully about what a group or person is up to. This forum is informal and obviously lacks citations, so it is on each of us to write as authentically and accurately as possible.

            Officially, when I comment, I’m just another commenter. As moderator, I only look for violations of the discussion guidelines – I do not make moderation judgements based on the merits of what is written.

            A rather long answer – I hope it addresses some of your concerns.

          • NikaG

            Moderator of what?

            It would be very wise to use the word ‘persecution’ with great care in this instance.

          • lmpierce

            Hi Nika,

            Persecute means to harass or annoy persistently. In my statement I stated that I myself find no grounds for attempting to persecute the sim owner. That is a statement about my own perspective and intentions.

            There is evidence in this discussion that the sim owners faced just this kind of activity, even after others had confirmed that their intentions were contrary to the expressed concerns about neo-Nazi activity. In declaring my own position on the sim, my statement was obviously in implicit contradistinction to those lingering doubts and assertions.

            Persecute also means to subject someone to hostility for their race, political or religious beliefs. I don’t think the sim owners faced this kind of persecution and I never said that they did. There is a political dimension to this discussion, but my impression has been that the majority of the negative reactions were based in emotion, not political science; words like ‘sensitivity’ are related to emotions. Just to be clear, I think emotional reactions are important, so my distinction here is for clarity, not to imply a hierarchical order of importance.

            Hypergrid Business has moderation. This means that all comments are read to ensure they meet the discussion guidelines. Some months ago, Maria invited me to participate as moderator. So, in answer to your question, I am moderator of Hypergrid Business.

            Here is a link to the article that announced and explained the implementation of the current discussion guidelines: http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2014/01/community-guidelines-now-in-place/

          • NikaG

            Then I suggest you stick to the job of moderation, and stop answering on behalf of others. Try not to represent the interests of other parties and recognise the extent of your remit. It might also be prudent take the middle line and not to side with, no vehemently defend someone who it seems is still poking a finger up to all who care to lift their rose tinted glasses. Further, you seem to have a pension for patronising and trying to ‘re-educate’. Try to stand back for a moment and let others have a perspective, without attempting to paint them a colour of your choosing. I had no idea this forum was your platform, Had it been speakers corner in Hyde Park, you would now be wearing several eggs!

          • lmpierce

            Hi Nika,

            Thank you, I look forward to continuing as moderator.

            Your admonishment that I should not represent the interests of other parties is nonsensical. This discussion has been charactered by each person writing about their support of the sim or the principles it stands for (freedom of expression), or their concerns, even angst, over the sim. Why shouldn’t I contribute my thoughts on the issue? If you are thinking that because I am moderator, I should recuse myself, please note that as moderator, I do not judge the merits of a comment. Only commenters can do that (with each other). As moderator, I step in to maintain the discussion guidelines on those rare occasions when they are applicable, mostly to prevent personal attacks. The rest of the time, I’m still just a reader and contributor to Hypergrid Business.

            I disagree with your assessment of the sim and the sim owners, so I disagree with your assessment of my position on this issue. In any case, the position I should take is the authentic position that aligns with my values. I would be opposed to a sim that fosters neo-Nazi propaganda and ideals, but I am equally opposed to false accusations when that is not the case.

            My approach to discussions is influenced by my background in education. No one’s perfect. But if I was truly patronizing, I would not have taken the time to respond to all of your concerns.

            The idea that the forum is mine and I need to let others express their opinions is groundless. Our thread is a perfect example of you expressing your opinions, and me expressing mine.

            The Hyde Park comment is just nonsense.

          • Adam Time

            Well if I find your Rag has a agenda and a direction you want to achieve like Fox news then so be it. Have fun.
            That’s what big companies do they protect the people that pay to advertise. How much money do you think the Democrats spend on Fox news and networks. But hey look the republicans are the customer. They drew a line in the sand. Better to be quite and have two customers paying you.

          • Albert Elson

            Still making a big deal out of nothing

          • Adam Time

            Way to much for me to read. Drama omg

      • Adam Time

        Smile take the money and handle this stuff through support emails stop making your self a target Traq. They are all customers. Let them work it out. We All know you founders have grown and have learned to handle things better.
        this is a no win thing and only drives the herd of cats in three directions. And we know it will not be towards you.
        The locals ran Most of the Nice BDSM folks away a long time ago. More you make Tranq the more I make :).

  • Gaga

    I haven’t checked but dose anyone know if the Opensim.ini has a section to list disallowed names from being registered? I would sure like to prevent the Hitler name being registered on my grid and even prevent someone with that name coming to my grid at all. I hope Kitely and OSgrid have taken this precaution too as I have a sim on both of those grids.

  • free virtual life

    (moderator: sorry to repost again, but I used a very new email adress, so that I assume this post did not passed for technical reasons. If it was not allowed for its content, well, too bad for me then 🙂 )

    What shocked me the most in this affair is not the fact by itself, but the reaction of Inworldz founders

    -immediately locking the thread

    -issuing public angry threats to the posters

    -and even one poster made public apologies (amazing the number of public apologies in the Inworldz forum these times)

    So it is clear that there was a will of evacuating any discussion or user input.

    All this to “avoid drama”?

    I don’t believe that, they did a lot since 18 months to maintain a high level of drama in their forum:

    -allowing a small number of regular stalkers attack every statement (there even was recently a single thread dedicated only at targeting a single person)

    -adding their own angry comments instead of just suppressing the offending posts

    -locking threads while leaving the offending posts and disputes visible

    This gives a very bad feeling, and it is not astonishing to see the number of sims remaining relatively constant since about this time, and also my groups membership. In world, I see many people come, rent a plot, and… disappear the next month. (this is probably the work of “chat groups” which I was seen used to target specific persons)

    Evidence of this, an attempt to moderate the forum some weeks ago saw a (short lived) increase in sim number, and also of my group membership. But it did not lasted long, with personal attacks allowed again.

  • Mark John Wiseman

    No one says there is an easy answer here. But if I understand your position correctly, you would be ok with a Twin Tower re-enactment sim, or – with your above addition – a sim that roleplays the suppresion of gays including all the activities from your quote from Wikipedia. Is this a correct interpretation of your position?

    • Tranquillity (InWorldz)

      I am not “ok” with any of this any more than you are. I find images of human beings hurting each other objectionable and offensive. I am also no more “ok” with people being insensitive in any other context you want to dream up. But this isn’t about me being “ok” with something, that is just an attempt to put a target on me and InWorldz.

      Do you demand your ISP remove images and content you don’t like from the internet? Do you demand ICANN take websites off the internet your don’t agree with? Why not? They have much more power than I do with a small 3d grid. Write your local lawmakers so we don’t have to get put into this position.

      The fact is we’re being used as a scapegoat for what is a HUGE worldwide social issue that has no good answers.I know coming here and trying to goad me into answering damned if I do and damned if I don’t questions is more entertaining and keeps the flames burning, but it accomplishes nothing.

      • Mark John Wiseman

        First off, lets not accuse me of coming here to damage you. It is irrelevant to me which grid this is taking place on. I have no issues with your company and have never even been in your world.

        What is relevant, is how you and allll the other grid owners are going to deal with the global differences that are going to play up as we create a visual, eventually hypergridded, metaverse full of emotion invoking imagery, open to everyone in the planet.
        I consider this topic so important that I am willing to stick my neck out and ask these questions, probably on behalf of a portion of open sim users who are curious about how morality is going to develop in this emerging online environment.

        I will leave the topic at this, as its probably time for some reflection on the opinions vented here. Again, I wish you much wisdom in finding a good balance between a boring Chuck-E-Cheese grid and a free for all, everything goes grid.

      • Adam Time

        Tranq your a CEO all the people in here are potential customers. Gird them loins. son it is a no win thing here.
        This Forum is RL it reflects your world view for potential customers. Simple email support forums.
        Smile and collect the money and take care of technical support and let the lawyers handle the material.

  • There is a lot of conjecture and assumption going on here. Why not ask the sim owner what he or she has in mind? The intent of such a disruptive sim could make all the difference.

  • Rene

    Seriously people, the flame fanning can end now.
    1. The original poster apologized for misconstruing the situation.
    2. The Region owner clearly stated what they created and how it was not how originally depicted by #1 and the subsequent reactions by people who were not even there to see it.
    3. The grid owners, a U.S. based company defended the 1st Amendment freedom of speech issue.
    How things played out, how it was handled, makes for a feed frenzy sphere for troll baiting, etc., but the conclusion of events #1 and #2 pretty much ends the original issue.

    • It’s all Maria’s fault!!!! [ducks, runs, gets under my sheets peeking out all skeered and stuffs]

      • Rene

        🙂 naw, not her fault at all. She was given news to print. It ran, it grabbed, and it’s over. Personally, I am more interested in the Immersive VR to come.

  • And now I just bow out of this discussion. Two days spent debating something that needs no debate is really a silly use of my time. Think maybe I am trying to avoid the stack of editing on my desk?

  • Gaga

    I can quite understand that you are annoyed at the protest your role play sim has attracted and I support your right to role play any historical events in history but I don’t see how you can compare the Nazi era with Gor or BDSM. Gor is fantasy anyway. Yes, it’s very sexist but it’s not real history. People role play Gor by choice and even for those people that choose Gor as a life style which may include BDSM practices it is still their choice. What happened in Nazi Germany was imposed. It was real. It was systematic. There were millions of victims who had no choice whatsoever but to suffer it and perish.

    With that said I’m glad you are making it clear you will not allow any neo-Nazi’s to hangout on your sim but I am wondering why on earth you have a Concentration camp in the city. What part can that play in your role play other than confining victims, brutalizing them and finally gassing them to death? Are you intent on recreating the full horror of the concentration camps for educational reasons or for BDSM sexual reasons?

    I’m personally ok with the historical role play and combat aspect but enacting concentration camps, in my view, needs to be done with respect and sensitivity for the people who actually suffered in them. I’m deeply disturbed by the thought you might be using the camp as a mere prop like some BDSM torture prison or dungeon. I hope that is not the case. I am also troubled by your use of the name, Adolf Hitler and the apparent glorification of him and the Nazi’s in the profile picture which I think actually sparked the protest.

    But it’s your sim and it’s up to Inworldz owners to decide what is acceptable. I hope they work this out with the troubled residents and you take a good look at what you are doing for this subject is no ordinary matter as witnessed by the strength of the protest.

  • lmpierce

    Hi Kane,

    Thank you for writing to the community, as well as providing the link.

    Much has been made of the title and contents of your sim and you answered the more meaningful concerns about your intentions, as people are understandably concerned about Nazi related activities.

    I also appreciate that you are standing by your decision to create a historical setting with any and all historically accurate components you deem necessary to express your perspectives. That you have taken on such a powerful topic in the face of objections shows a courage that speaks to the idealism of an open metaverse.

  • Suz Blessed

    Thank you for your post. Maybe things will be clear to people now. And hopefully they will see that a further discussion will not lead to anything. Your partner Mr.C told me in world that none except me contacted you before this issue became public. And you also made it clear that under the law of ‘ FREEDOM of SPEECH’ you will keep on building the sims and turn it later into mesh buildings to make it even more realistic. And that you will not close the sims for public. ( which would be easier then banning people on that sim). My point is that people in general often use the term ‘ FREEDOM of SPEECH’ to justify what they are doing and saying. And they forget simple things like having respect for others or use soms tact in how you say things. And to me personally it is all about respect for others. And not about the law or some sort of competition about who is wright or wrong. In this case all are loosing. The people who are offended lost their trust in IW’s management and the people saying we have freedom of speech loose their face of not showing some respect.

    This is what one of the owners of those famous sims wrote to me:

    Mr. X: However, this game states ON SIGN UP and in its TOS, That is for 18+ that would represent Adults, These people getting “Offended” They are not being forced to come to my sim, Not once have i said such, on the second note the sim was origally going to be Named “Nazi-Germany” But out of “RESPECT!” We named it Deutschland, My disclaimer is there it states also in the Land discription if the RP sim offends Dont come here, simple, I am not here to entertain whiney boycotters, if the sim is upsetting peopel the founders can tell us to do otherwise which they wont as you know Freedom of Speech and Act are in play, If they want to complain great, the more they Post pictures and Whine the more people that are coming to my sim, Me and Mr. Y are very happy with that traffic is great even if its the wrong kind its always good to see people come here xD

    but like i stated above i am no ones bitch and i wont entertain the whiney few, i have had alot of Ims and 89% of them are in support of us not opposing. the sim will remain open and More will be added in upcoming months, and due to the traffic standard i will be making the entire sim mesh later in the year 😛

  • Stay tuned! Be on the edge of your seats! The next episode of “How the inwz drama turns” is coming up!! cue spooky sounds with echos, “inwz, where drama is real, where reality has nothing to do with anything, where, you too, can wear a swastika, and proudly!!”

    btw, I was trying to find other places discussing this yesterday, using the google search keywords “inworldz nazi” and found this old funny one;

    http://veritasense.blogspot.com/2011/08/veritas-visits-inworldz-brieflya.html

    Now, go shoot you some underground resistance fighters!!!

  • Sounds like you found the perfect grid for you and your friends.

  • Observer

    If only the people who are complaining and dramatizing in VW’s would take all that energy and apply it towards Real World Issues & Problems like child poverty and abuses, in-equality of rights & freedoms, pollution & toxification of our waters & lands… The Real World might just improve a wee bit… Maybe all these folks need to go for a long walk around their town / village or city and go sit in the park for an afternoon with a snack and see the world around them…

    BTW: While the Swastika may be a “banned icon” in many parts of Europe, do remember that the Nazi Regime took 3000 year old Symbol and subverted it, so if you do see it, think of who is displaying it and the context before reacting.

    Brief History:
    The Oldest Known Symbol / Icon the Swastika,

    The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.

    During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

    China – wan
    England – fylfot
    Germany – Hakenkreuz
    Greece – tetraskelion and gammadion
    India – swastika
    PS: Some of my family died in Nazi Concentration camps, some in Soviet Gulags post-war (That’s what the Stalin’s Soviets did to the “prisoners in camps” that they liberated). I have as a result a “sensitivity” to the symbolisms & meanings yet I will not allow myself to be blinded by emotion and avoiding dealing with one of the darkest moments in Human History. It is a HISTORIC LESSON THAT MUST NEVER EVER BE FORGOTTEN so that we as a species never allow it to happen again ! We must also remember the “internment” of the Japanese, German and others in USA, Canada who while were not in “concentration camps” suffered extensively as a result of their “genetic heritage profile”. Seized assets, real properties and funds/accounts and everything else that was taken from them and never returned or even apologized for.

    • Gaga

      Its interesting that you think the protestor’s argument is so trivial that you consider real world issues more important in this instance – as a deflection – than what the protestors have actually been hurt by. You then proceed to give us a lesson in history that practically dismisses the Nazi use of the Swastika and the horror it came to represent in the minds of millions of victims and survivors of the Nazi regime. Sadly, you didn’t even offer one word of sympathy for the hurt a number of Inworldz residents have suffered because of this awful thing they are expected to put up with on the grid they call home and have supported.

      I was trying to keep an open mind but arguments like yours leave me feeling very uneasy now.

  • Beacara

    “Now with that all said me and the other Owner of the sim have Decided we are going to keep Deutschland open, if you wish flame and defame it that is fine we are not Phased by the Complaints we are here to have fun just like all of you and we should not be treated like any other” – quote from the Simowner’s forum post.

    How can it ever be fun to build ruins but most of all a concentration camp for a kind of game?

    My grandfather died in the winter of 1939 in the concentration camp Sachsenhausen, Berlin/Oranienburg. I assure you: noone of you wishes to know the exact circumstances of his death. His death and the death of all the others. The story of hunger, sickness, torture, sadism, fear, horror. The story of people who had to face their death building their own crematory. And people who had to leave behind orphans like my mother.

    And I assure you: when you know all these details, you will have the same nightmare DREAMS like me. Sorry, I had to add this to show respect to all those innocent people.

    • Gaga

      You should have said all this sooner instead of dismissing the protestors out of hand, or was it your intention to be deliberately controversial for the publicity it might gain – has gained?. So, the whole point of the sim is too educate on the Holocaust? But how is this subject ever going to be fun which is what you say you want? I mean, after the highly descriptive and tragic image you paint above how can one derive any kind pleasure from it? What’s more you never offered one word of sympathy or understanding for the hurt the protestors expressed, which might have gone some way to help reach some understanding.

      • Albert Elson

        “What’s more you never offered one word of sympathy or understanding for the hurt the protestors expressed,”
        Why are they obligated to explain themselves to a bunch of troublemakers? They should ignore these people and go about their business.

      • Beacara

        Hello Gaga, I’m sorry when there are translation mistakes, with the result of misunderstanding. 1. I didn’t read the article and the reactions before yesterday. 2. When I read the statement of the builder and simowner using the word ‘fun’ I was shocked, the same with words like ‘I rather enjoyed building the region’. So I had to explain why it NEVER can be possible to use a concentration camp as a place for a game, using facts of my own history. 3. I read the complete discussion on the Inworldz forum and on Hypergrid Business, and I am proud of anyone who found the courage to start the petition and the discussion. And of course I appreciate all those arguments written here to point out that there are values that count a bit more than freedom of speech. Some contributions here deeply impressed me. Hope this makes more understandable what I had to say.

  • Brian Preble

    There will always be someone whining about something. Yes, many bad things have happened in history. If you want to boycott something, do what I do and boycott the human race because humans committed every one of those autrocities. If Suzan de Koning has children, she is a hypocrite.

  • Samantha Atkins

    So no accurate historical reenactments? That is quite shortsighted. If you are going to portray Nazi Germany for such a historical reenactment role play it is going to be ugly.

  • Adam Time

    At what point do people realize the tools to block and de-render have been in the viewer for many many years.
    When are people going to learn there is no such thing as control. Just Free will.
    If you do not like a sim do not go there. Grow up. Sad this had to be talked about in a forum. All disputes between residents are just that.
    Sad that the owners of a grid had to actually Think they could get involved with resident problems. It is a virtual world.
    Founders are RL there job is to make sure the sim runs by the letter of the law and that it is running from a technical point. This all could be handled with a simple email to support.
    Boom fixed. But agian the founders speak out and keep making them selves a target. Stop making the founders look like Nazi’s.

    Little advise to the founders smile take the money and keep all your thoughts out of the forums. And when you do seek commercial advertisement do just that. You just made your self a target. There is no sides in this they are both customers. Smile take the money and let the residents work it out. You have TOS.
    This is no big Deal. Because it is not REAL. it is pixels.

    • Hey Adam, since I got your disqus “following” message this morning, and read up on your recent comments, I found this.

      Publicly I will say that I still wonder why you participate in inwz still at all. We both are very aware of their problems and I left and no longer cared about my inventory I paid for.

      I do understand the lock-in aspect but once you all get this in a region in kitely [by doing it there or creating in soas and importing the oar] then you never have to concern yourselves with lock-in aspects.

      Plus for your content you can sell not only in the largest commercial OS grid, but also to the rest of the hypergated Meta…since they enabled hypergating you can travel to 1000’s of other grids and personal places.

      Anywho, this is a public PSA…get me in the usual private ways willya pls? Your team would do well to further investigate Kitely.

      hugsa

      • Adam Time

        Minethere long time to get back with you I have a few things going on in there I keep it to my self. I asset an elderly couple with a couple sims. The problem is I really do not like using a alt but as usual the founders have way to much time to hang out and get involved with drama. I respect you Miney 🙂 a lot. I am getting older my eyes are starting to fail these days.
        One thing we learn Minethere never use your own money to invest.

        Mine when ever you need help or a video or a promo done let me know love to do another one.

        Hey did you here the News Lord Drakeo’s partner was invited to Miss Virtual World. Big deal for her.

        just google Eleseren Brianana and see what kind of people IW throws away everyday.

        Drakeo is doing ok went south to visit him the other day RL.
        Mine I hop all over. And use the kokua v3 viewer. You just send me some hyper links to places you need me to

        look at I will pop in. I have some wild media stuff. For shows.

        • ty Adam-) Just heard from another banned person from there yesterday. I told the guy he was lucky….lol

          Cool for Eleseren and good luck to her-)

          I will send you my email from inside Metro today so we can talk more there. I do have places that a nice video would be good for, and people for you to meet in such regards.

  • Adam Time

    Big Target your making of your self ego? The world is your customer. Hands Trang quite pill.

  • Adam Time

    wow you really need to stop the control thing. As per TOS the Founders do not get involved with inworld residents.
    If you find some illegal material that goes against the laws that the LLC is based in then please adress that in a email to IW.
    other wise learn how to use the viewer. As for the founders the moment you made a reply you became a target.

    Confucius say it is better to wait and see. Once you draw a line you have chosen. And trust me smile go to the bank.

  • Jack Harkenss

    Watching as “founders” gang up on a long term resident publicly on the inworldz forum is a little more concerning to me for the long term effect on inworldz then a role play Nazi region. Not to downplay the anger around the Nazi concerns because I totally understand the anger, hurt and frustration caused. I just think that seeing “founders” berate a long time supporter and contributor to that world shows a lack of respect and professionalism to a member of it’s customer base.

    That customer was raising what was a valid concern. It was on topic to the first post and was a chance for that frustrated customer to offer criticism that was not unfair or unreasonable. Watching “inworldz mod” come into a discussion that was not in need of moderation and then seeing “founders” join in later shows me personally that the rumors of customers being bullied by “founders” may be accurate.

    “At this point, this thread has seriously derailed into your personal conflicts with Jim. I will only say this once, do not bring it back to the forums again as it seriously compromises two people I very highly respect, the both of you. The thread has run it’s course.” -Elenia

    http://inworldz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19055 (Source thread)

    I don’t believe that final post quote shows Elenia to “highly respect” that customer since she brought out a personal conflict that I for example did not know about. It was an attempt to cheapen the customer’s position, publicly silence him on the matter and then having the last word by closing the thread. I think they are being hypersensitive there.

    I have heard quotes about how the “founders” are so different from the Lindens. I agree. I never saw Philip Linden and a senior Linden enter a thread on their forums and act the way these “founders” did.

    In my opinion this speaks volumes to the professionalism or lack there of when addressing a customer who is pointing out a long term issue that effects the enjoyment of boaters and pilots there .

    Customers who have invested in inworldz in time and money may want to have a talk with the “founders” about being more professional in public to protect customer investments. hot heads and handy moderation hands will not bode well for public perception of inworldz.