MOSES calls for new foundation to move OpenSim forward

Editor: The U.S. Army’s MOSES grid has long been making cutting-edge contributors to OpenSim, building a grid management system, running scalability tests, and donating content to the OpenSim community. Now they are in the process of moving to a branch of OpenSim called Halcyon, open-sourced last year by InWorldz, OpenSim’s most popular grid, and are about to release a new Web-based viewer for OpenSim. Douglas Maxwell, who wrote the column below, is the science and technology manager for virtual world strategic applications at the U.S. Army’s Simulation & Training Technology Center, and oversees the project.

What are the MOSES philosophies?

Douglas Maxwell. (Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell.)

(Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell.)

I got asked this question recently and realized that we have had so many people join since the original founding of MOSES that it would be a good idea to chat about it.

The MOSES philosophies are about practical applications of scientific exploration to common military and civilian virtual world application problems.

The MOSES philosophies are about our “can-do” attitude and we get things done. We hold public tests and invite the community to participate in our work, where when we fail – it is epic. We discuss those failures and learn from them. We do not hide our failures and publicly discuss what we learn. We pick ourselves up, perform after action reviews, refine and update our technology and test again.

The MOSES community provides valuable feedback and beta testers. We are relentless in our pursuit of solutions to the hardest problems. When we succeed, we donate the work to the community, and everyone benefits.

The actual Army training environment, and the MOSES simulation. (Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell.)

The actual Army training environment, and the MOSES simulation. (Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell.)

MOSES and the public

A number of you have asked me to elaborate on my idea of a transition of the MOSES to a civilian foundation.

MOSES is not just a virtual simulator, it is much more. The Military Open Simulator Enterprise Strategy encompasses everything we have learned through application of open simulator technology to training and education. MOSES is composed of a tremendously diverse population of dedicated people, research, data, experimental design, refined assumptions, surprising results, software architecture, high quality content, and technology.

I am exploring viable options for the continuation of the MOSES philosophies through a transition of our work to a civilian organization.

Over the past five years, we have built a vast network of virtual world researchers and practitioners, conducted numerous technology improvement tests, conducted human performance testing, created and donated our own code, and donated high quality content back to the OpenSimulator community.

We follow a professional code of conduct within our grids and strive to provide legitimacy and credibility to this technology.

We have conducted weekly office hours meetings continuously since March of 2011 and gladly “eat our own dog food.”

As we evolve in our thinking through the analysis of new incoming data, so will our platforms also evolve. We are working on a HTML5-based browser viewer which will ultimately break backwards compatibility with older simulator code.

We are working on the design for safer data transmission protocols and login authentication mechanisms. This will also break backwards compatibility.

OpenSim viewer and server systems diagram. (Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell.)

OpenSim viewer and server systems diagram. (Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell.)

We have taken a hard look at the barriers to entry for this technology and designed logical technical responses.

When a college professor tells me she cannot install the MOSES client because the university system administrators won’t allow the network traffic firewall exceptions, we have a similar problem with military networks.

This means we need a new approach to access — Web Viewer — and data transmission — SSL TCP. We know that the computers have web browsers and port 22 in the firewall is open. Both she and I will benefit when we are done.

When we observe an excessive amount of time is required to train people to use the tools, we respond by designing and deploying a different user interface. We test and refine and declare victory.

When we see that we need to support hundreds of entities to create a dynamic and rich environment in addition to large numbers of scene objects, we respond by profiling and dissecting the core simulator and design a new architecture.

We can now support two full platoons of soldiers in the environment simultaneously and you get to let your large classes log in all 100 students at the same time. It is not enough to accept all the client connections, they must be able to log in and perform without lag.

We take a deliberate systems engineering approach to our technology. It may take a bit longer to get work out, but what we produce does exactly what it was designed to do.

This technology and content is yours.

A public purpose statement is formally entered into all funding contracts related to MOSES work. This is not accidental.

We’ve made provisions in our code through open source licensing and creative commons licensing attached to our content. Our research is published in open literature. We discuss the latest work in office hours.

MOSES team at work. (Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell.)

MOSES team at work. (Image courtesy Douglas Maxwell.)

From the military to the civilian space

A civilian foundation needs to pick this work up and be a stakeholder.

It must be led by grown-ups who know how to run a professional entity.

I would like to work with like-minded professionals who can be entrusted with the continuation of our work.

This organization would not be controlled by MOSES in any way, but a parallel civilian entity that shares our work ethic and philosophy for the application of virtual world technology to civilian educational and training uses.

Ideally, this foundation would be supported through membership fees, research grants, and service contracts. The foundation should support a staff of code and content maintainers. This foundation would be responsible for the maintenance of a source code repository that would serve as an official residence for a safe and secure open source simulator.

This foundation would be chartered with the formalization of inter-grid data interoperability standards, a safe and secure post-hypergrid specification.

This foundation would conduct code reviews and be the official acceptance authority for outside contributions. This foundation would establish release cycles so that people dependent on the code would know when to expect updates and be able to plan for them. This foundation would be the safe and official originator of “out of cycle” security patches.

The foundation will be responsible for the creation and maintenance of a technology roadmap so that users will know when features will be released for testing and adoption.

In short — it is time for the civilians to make this a professional activity.

This foundation needs to be chartered with a research focus in addition to any philanthropic or charity language you want. This thing would be formally organized as a legal entity. Whether it should be for-profit or non-profit, I can’t provide input into that, the organizers need to decide.

This foundation needs a Tax ID, DUNS and CAGE codes. It needs a formalized accounting system and the ability to speak to government funding agents.

Educators: if you are interested in this, talk to your university business incubator.

Industry: this is an opportunity to guide the creation and widespread adoption of Metaverse 2.0.

I look forward to your input and await contact from the brave souls who think they can pull this off.'

Douglas Maxwell

Douglas Maxwell is the science and technology manager for virtual world strategic applications at the U.S. Army's Simulation & Training Technology Center.

  • Da Hayward

    Great stuff. especially the can do attitude.

  • Dharma Little

    I am impressed with Dr Maxwell’s work, considering 100k vs. 1million lines of code is so much more forgiven on the PC,his attempts to outreach and communicate with everyone has been really nice(calmed my nerves) but the part that i like most is they are so organized like a well oiled machine, after doing some self-reflection on my outlook it looks to me a blessing for the community.

  • Selby Evans

    I welcome Dr. Maxwell’s initiative.

  • Paul E. Emery

    Great stuff. How does a civilian get involved? (Casias in world)

  • Bristle Chesnokov

    I have been going back and forth from Unreal Engine 4 (UE4) to Opensimulator. I like the fact that anyone can do whatever they want (some restriction of course) in Opensimulator without the VRML stuff. UE4 has a model called Open Worlds but right now it is not really support by the game industry. Games company still have their own way of doing things. I would like to have UE4 (or Unity or both) and Opensimulator together. UE4 has great graphics, blueprints, and lots of ways to combined stuff in blueprints and you can write additional stuff in C++ and tied them in blueprints. EU4 has no real server though although a couple people have try to do a client in UE4 and Opensimulator.
    There are some new products some such as HiFi and Second Life 2 (I forgot what it is called). HiFi i have played with somewhat but I may be missing something because I haven’t seen anything beyond Second Life although they use FBX instead of Collada.
    No one has a mechanism of a virtual drone, for example. I can do some things, but it is fake. Each region in SL server and Opensimulator is 16 acres compared to Open Worlds which has 14 square miles for Skyrim, 50 square miles for Witcher 3, and 100 square miles for UE4. 640 acres is one mile or 40 regions.
    I would be willing to help if there was a way to take UE4/Unity, Opensimulator with FBX, real pathfinding, animals and mobs animations, and real cameras: front, side, back and more than one.
    One more thing, SL has my avatar at 7’6″. Now I am glad for that but it messing with the scale of things. I then reduced my avatar to 5′ 10″ and it made me look tiny and so I went back to 7′ 6″ and some guys are still bigger!

  • Han Held

    “This foundation would be chartered with the formalization of inter-grid data interoperability standards, a safe and secure post-hypergrid specification.”

    In plain english/laymen’s terms, what does this sentence mean? Particularly the “post-hypergrid” part.

    • Bristle Chesnokov

      hypergrid was started by Intel or IBM, i forgot which in SL server and then Opensimulator. Then idea was you could connect with your own server to a grid. This is different that a grid where you have to your server stay on 24/7. With hypergrid, you can disconnect anytime and reconnect again. But there was problems and one is the same thing as a 3rd party client: how to have a more secure but not restrictive. SL was open for a long time, but then it went more restrictive and 3rd party tools cannot “steal” creations.
      So you need to have a standard with what could you have, what couldn’t you have, and what security. But the way, SL decide to kill the hypergrid, Opensimulator still has it.

      • Bristle — IBM was involved in early OpenSim development, but that test teleport from Second Life to OpenSim was a totally separate thing from the hypergrid.

        The hypergrid is unrelated to whether a region or grid is up or not. It simply allows people to teleport from one grid to another, to make friends on other grids, to go shopping on other grids, to join groups, and to send messages. Currently, 79% of the public OpenSim grids are hypergrid-enabled, accounting for 78% of all active users and 94% of regions.

        Second Life never had this, except for that one limited experiment with IBM.

        • Han Held

          Thank you, Maria. My impression is that our Hypergrid was designed and implemented by Diva Canto, circa 2009. Maybe it was in response to the SL/IBM jump, maybe it wasn’t -I’ve no idea.

          I’m skeptical that this initiative will have the broad, wide-ranging appeal that opensim currently has, that it will result in a program that is as versitile or as easily accessible (for end-users) as opensim is, and his phrasing (“post-hypergrid”, implying after hypergrid) certainly made me raise my eyebrows. Time will tell, I guess.

          • Bristle Chesnokov

            yes, Diva but that was later I think. Certainly she deserve the credit for at least keeping the hypergrid going.

          • Prof. Crista Lopes — Diva Canto — officially announced her invention of the hypergrid on October 26, 2008:

            Second Life was selling its “Second Life Enterprise” product then — a behind-the-firewall version of Second Life — which they discontinued in 2010:

            IBM’s $50,000 version was running OpenSim in 2009:

            But they had also worked on Second Life Enterprise projects as well, and had been using their version of the hypergrid — Open Grid Protocol. That might be what you were thinking of.

          • dahlia

            Yes the LL/IBM efforts were originally known as Open Grid Protocol (OGP) and later efforts driven by Linden Lab were known as Virtual World Region Agent Protocol (VWRAP). I played a small part in testing and in bringing of OGP patches from IBM into core OpenSimulator, and later participated in many of the VWRAP discussions. Diva was working on Hypergrid independently around the same time and when she submitted her patches we ask her to join core.

            It should be noted that both OGP and VWRAP had central management services whereas Hypergrid is decentralized.

          • Mike Dickson

            The VWRAP standards discussions, which I participated in at the time, explored some different ideas from HG with minimal success. As Dahlia indicated the services where more centralized in principal though there was some discussion about how to accommodate distributed services as well. That services would be centralized makes a certain amount of sense given that at least part of the idea was to be able to extend what Secondlife provided at the time. I’d had some great success participating in other standards efforts but honestly VWRAP never really got off the ground given that the interactions were often rather drama filled and often HG was argued to be “better” though there was no real effort to bring the HG work to the table as part of the standards effort.

            We can absolutely do an interconnection protocol better than HG is done today. And it seems very clear to at least me that its a necessary feature given how prevalent HG connected small grids are with OpenSim today. I’d be happy to participate in bringing some definition and implementation of grid interconnection to Halcyon which MOSES is using. I’m already a heavy contributor to Halcyon today.

        • Bristle Chesnokov

          SL did client experiments like procedural animation and C#. Only developers could get them. They had a lot of experiment clients– some went to the public, some didn’t.

      • I think this is the specifics: Open Grid Protocol was the first, and not associated with HyperGrid other than in terms of desired functionality. But OPG (or SLGOPG) was quickly superseded by the VWRAP protocol, which is typically the one everyone remembers from the IBM / SL Enterprise work.

        The first successful inter-grid teleport was VWRAP-based, from SL to IBM regions, on June 30th, 2008. VWRAP was actually a well-defined RFC that was being peer-reviewed, but a few months later, Christa proposed this competing implementation, called HyperGrid, rather than making use of the proposed VWRAP standard. Unfortunately that left OpenSim unable to connect to SL, and later LL canceled the SL Enterprise program, and its support for inter-grid transport, and also leaving MOSES out in the cold, needing a replacement (thus OpenSim was used instead).

        So HyperGrid was not started by IBM, other than perhaps for their proposed VWRAP standard to plant the seed of cross-grid teleports in others’ minds.

        • Bristle Chesnokov

          so basically I have a year off from May 2008 to June 2009 since I had a stroke.

    • Douglas Maxwell

      The current implementation of hypergrid protocols is insufficient for growth. They are insecure and could use some optimization. They serve as a good proof of concept for connecting grids, but should not be used for any e-commerce or situations where content needs to be protected. This is an opportunity to do a proper and deliberate engineering of what new protocols need to be specified for safe and secure movement about the grids with economic transactions.

  • Wordfromthe Wise

    You need to have a GPU in the server, right ?! Who runs such a setup?

    • Douglas Maxwell

      GPU is not required.

      • Wordfromthe Wise

        Ok, but the physixxs you are working on needs a gpu if not running ODE?

        • Douglas Maxwell

          PhysX works whether you have a GPU or not. There are four features a virtual world needs to satisfy our needs (and you may find them useful as well.) 1. Gravity. Any decent physics engine can handle gravity on the CPU. 2. Collision detection. This is a bit more intense, but clever multi-threading like what Havok or PhysX does on the CPU is sufficient. This is all the Open Simulator supports. We use Nvidia’s PhysX with and without the GPU flag turned on. #3 and #4 are GPU accelerated ray tracing and N-body physics. The ray tracing would allow your bots & NPC to “sense” the environment and make smart autonomous choices, N-body physics gets you more realistic gestures and vehicles.

    • Bristle Chesnokov

      No need at all for GPU as Douglas says. I have run muli-regions with my low end computer in OSgrid and on my private server. Your client does all the graphics work. My recommendation is to use Firestorm client. You cant use SL client.

  • Sign us
    up! Count DigiWorldz into the mix!

    • does this mean i’m off the hook on trying to make a web based viewer terry?

      • Douglas Maxwell

        You may have insights into the problems we have not considered. Currently we are working on the asset pipeline and scene optimizations. We would welcome your input.

  • Bristle Chesnokov

    I just did a html5 test. 555 is the highest score:

    window 8.1

    IE version 11 I got 312/555. I

    chrome version 53.x.x I got 499/555


    chrome version x.x.x I got 498/555

    Streaming is questionable. I got a “partial” on codecs, and a “no” dynamic adaptive streaming. This is true for IE and Chrome. So if I were to hooked my web client I want use chrome instead of IE. Firestorm client doesn’t do any good because it will still look like a regular Opensimulator. Or do I have it wrong in some way?

  • Douglas Maxwell

    I’ve put some thought into how to respond to the skeptics and detractors. It is difficult to do so without sounding trollish or condescending. Here goes…

    “It should be borne in mind that there is nothing more difficult to manage, or more doubtful of success, or more dangerous to handle than to take the lead in introducing a new order of things. For the innovator has enemies in all those who are doing well under the old order, and he has only lukewarm defenders in all those who would do well under the new order. This lukewarmness arises partly from the incredulity of men who do not truly believe in new things until they have had a solid experience of them. Thus it happens that whenever his enemies have the opportunity to attack the innovator, they do so with the zeal of partisans, and the others only defend him tepidly, so that he, together with them, is put in danger.”

    Niccolo Machiavelli was conveying posthumous advice to Lorenzo de Medici, acknowledging that people are afraid of change and have a hard time relating to what a new normal will be after the change has occurred. It requires more imagination that most are capable.

    Folks, we know that change is necessary or the platform will atrophy and fade. I’m offering someone an opportunity to step up and be in the driver seat, not a passenger pundit. You all have my name, where I work, my phone number and email address. Who else has the courage to come out of the shadows and work with a group of professionals to get this job done?

    • Da Hayward

      Well said. Im not a techy or anything like that but you are right without change or progress the whole shooting match will stagnate. I applaud anyone who takes up your offer and joins you in this quest

    • Han Held

      That’s your response to a request for clarification? Not clarification, but Machiavelli?

      Fair enough -that’s your prerogative.

      • Douglas Maxwell

        I believe my response to your Hypergrid question was fairly straightforward. I’d be happy to answer any more questions you may have. I only ask that you remain civil.

      • Bristle Chesnokov

        well I am still at the IIS Microsoft web server and html5 part and what service do I get over Opensimulator.

        • Douglas Maxwell

          Can you clarify your question?

          • Bristle Chesnokov

            really its not a question, more of an understanding. your diagram use IIS Windows server but maybe its just an example. Apache would be better but maybe Apache doesn’t support html5. As far as html5, my IE client hands it okay. see my photo from an game that you use. not its not a typically Opensimulator, but it is a real game.

          • Douglas Maxwell

            Maria asked me for some graphics, so I tossed some pictures her way. That is a photograph of a whiteboard in my office from 2012 where we were trying to figure out how to roll a version of Open Simulator that could conform to DIACAP regs. IIS was just one of the proposed web servers. We ended up with Apache on Linux.

          • Bristle Chesnokov

            oh, okay. I figured it was something like that

          • Bristle Chesnokov

            I forgot to mention, it animating. I just turn my wheel to keep from going through the blue thing.

    • Hi Douglas, sent you a message on skype.

    • Guest

      Well some of us pray to think that this community could come together, without all the drama.snickering and infighting that has plagued it all these years.
      people just never seem to learn or care about what they do how it reflects on everyone else, always the claim to speak for everyone and the greater good and always with others just like themselves to back them up. 99% vs.a selfish1% Club.

      it really gets old year after year the same people can bring ruin on the community by self appointment unchallenged and even praised.i have watched thousands of people come and go over the years with it always coming back to the the same reasons and even this comment it will be addressed by some part of some conspiracy they will tell each other as facts and verification for the selfish agenda they bring forth.

      By gods true light & the power of Jesus then i hope you really are able to overcome skeptics and detractors for the sake of the other 99% of us basically the last of us, unless people allow real change to happen instead of trying to settle old scores or divert all the attention to themselves for attention, in the process wreaking your intentions and what could have been.

      sorry for the conflict in the last few days some have brought to you, people have tried to bring you down behind the scenes, i apologizes for them and pray for them also, hopefully you can find it inside you to do the same for them.

      Good Luck Dr Maxwell, may god be with you and have mercy on us all.

      • lmpierce

        I would like to emphasize that adding exaggeration to the actual issues isn’t helpful. There have been snarky remarks, comments too crude for publication, and derision… that was what led in large part to the initiation of moderation. Since then, I’ve often been impressed that the comments are, overall, well within the expected range of disagreement to agreement.

        But it should also be noted that the number of commenters is a small fraction of actual readers (but there are no accurate statistics on this to my knowledge). It is well understood, however, that many people read the articles and benefit from the topics, skip contributing to the comments altogether. This means that whatever number of people are cross talking in the comments, it’s still a minority of readers and interested parties. Therefore, when reactions seem out of balance, the overall situation is probably not as grievous as reading of the comments might suggest.

    • So Dusan, did the military get tired of an SL-type virtual world or even virtual worlds in general? And now they want to spin it off? Or what’s up? Somehow, this is like an ICANN situation, it seems. Of course, all of us who care about copyright remember how the Navy wanted to “liberate content” and we can never forgive them for that. But then, they brought us the evils of Tor, too…

      • It’s still “an SL-type virtual world”. They all are. OpenSim, Halcyon, Aurora, WhiteCore, whatever. And to demonstrate, you can still even use any regular SL-compatible viewer to log in. So no, they didn’t get tired of that, or virtual worlds in general.

    • man I wish I knew how to program/code…I’d do this in a split second. Unfortunately I’m in the “end user” category but fully supporting this and want desperately to see it happen.

  • Ah thanks for that info. I stand corrected on the VWRAP timing and use for that first teleport; I can’t remember now why I thought the IBM teleport was VWRAP, but yes agreed, it was definitely all OGP back in 2008.

    But also, I didn’t actually say anything about OGP conflicting with HyperGrid, only that you couldn’t connect to SL via HyperGrid. Oh wait, I think I understand what you mean here: that while HG didn’t allow connection to SL, it also didn’t prevent the use of OGP to teleport to SL, instead, by OpenSim grids. I also didn’t know that they could coexist either. But I never really understood why the decision was made to design another different protocol for OpenSim, rather than make use of the LL / IBM / others’ work existing at the time. Perhaps it was just a good idea for an academic project for the university, that ended up actually getting used more later when the public LL / IBM work decreased?

    The main point I was trying to make was just that the HyperGrid was not created by IBM, but rather IBM (and others including LL) were doing other independent inter-grid teleport work, prior to the HyperGrid announcement by Diva. HG was a separate protocol and project.

  • Tom Frost

    Interesting developments. I applaud the introduction of a professional angle to the future of opensim, the application of proper software development practices to the further development of the platform. I do hope people will step up and make this happen, I think MOSES has been taking opensim to the next level for a while now, and if it wasn’t for the lack of hypergrid functionality i’d have been running their branch of the code for ages now.

    I don’t know about “Tax ID, DUNS and CAGE codes”, I guess those are relevant for people from the USA ?

    • I believe that is probably to enable additional funding from (US) government sources, especially given Dr. Maxwell’s earlier problems trying to offer to help with funding.

  • Working with Doug, Michael and the rest of the MOSES group at UCF has been progressive and professional. We’ve made a ton of progress together in a short time and I have nothing but respect for everyone involved. The work being done is all open source and returned back to the community where I’ll continue to help manage changes and patches.

    I would love to help spearhead this type of effort in the company of like-minded, professional individuals and serve as both an organizational and technical conscience. I regularly mentor at 3 day startup, and work with budding organizations all the time in my day job. I know starting something new can bumpy. You can count me in for assistance or leadership if necessary with my enthusiasm being limited only by my spare time.

    • Guest

      Sounds great David! you’ve got my vote!

  • Thanks, that makes perfect sense to me now. Choice is good, and an alternative option for a decentralized solution only adds to options.

  • You used a government paid thingy to post that. 😉

  • Douglas Maxwell

    We are preparing another article that talks about security. Sounds like you will be interested in the details of our audit of the Hypergrid technology.

    • Guest

      I had posted a comment about a unified currency but it is still waiting to be approved,to clarify and simply that comment, my realistic question is has any thought been given to a unified crypto-currency or adoption of a currently used one that’s already developed that can be applied.

      a stable secure decentralized might be a good, don’t soldiers often have to deal with currency issues even in war zones? just wondering =)

      • Douglas Maxwell

        That is an excellent idea and yet another reason for a foundation to run this thing. I worked for a few years with my enterprise counterpart at Linden Lab with Chris Collins (ex-Logan Linden) on the Second Life Enterprise. Specifically, we (the military) were interested in a Second Life capability, but running securely behind the firewall. My job was to help Linden with the hardening of the SLE. Chris was also responsible for shaping the Linden economy. He was the one that had to deal with the banks and gambling in the platform. He had great stories about the early days of the Linden economy.

        One hard lesson they learned was that if you want your currency to be “real”, you have to manage it correctly. You also have to manage it legally. I believe a common currency such as something based on a cryptocurrency is a great move. Someone on my team suggested MOSESCOIN, but that is a bit excessive. I think METAVERSECOIN is too cumbersome, but perhaps OSCOIN might work. It is also a profit vector for miners. This might also attract experts in the field like Mic Bowman or Kitty Liu from Intel Corp back to Open Sim.

        • Ex-Linden Christopher Colosi has created just that kind of legally-managed virtual currency (though not Bitcoin based):

          It’s currently live on the Mobius grid and the Hyperica grid:

          • The problem with (also) this currency is it is based in US regulations and the need to register as a US business entity for a grid owner. – Meaning it is close to useless outside the US.

          • Talla Adam

            You make a good point, Geir. I wonder how people not in the US like me can be involved other than contributing code online or making donations. How would us “foreigners” be affected or limited in respect of the new Foundation? Especially if a universal currency or possibly centralized avatar ID’s are initiated?

            Generally, I support what Doug is proposing but we are an international community and it’s easy to lose sight of that when the main players are in the US.

          • The issue with a currency, Talla, is there can never be a universal one, because there are too many regulators who wants to stick their claws in it once it gets some traction.

            The best cause of action is that one can establish a virtual currency inside the EU legislation (BREXIT and all) because legislation is relatively unified. The same goes for consumer and privacy legislation.

            This are, however, mostly organisational / admin issues and not something that is hardcoded in OpenSim. It should be possible to write a generic money /economy module and plug any currency into it, even a real currency. Anything that has to do with tax reporting, VAT, storing private information etc would have to be developed in accordance with legislation of the location the grid operates out of.

          • There are also some non-OpenSim alternatives. There’s PayPal itself, as well as the PayPal Microcurrency — or was, I haven’t heard much about it lately. And both Google and Apple have in-app purchases, so if your viewer is, say, a mobile viewer running on mobile phones, then you might be able to access those platforms, and make those payment systems available in some transparent way to in-world users like merchants and residents.

          • You basically have to look for solutions from someone with a non US headquarter. Europe is a 780 million people market. I am sure we can make alternatives here too.

          • Guest

            Sorry you feel that way, many of us joined SL to met different people from around the world, when it was once a larger global phenomenon. in situations like this it is understandable those feelings but rarely would i think anyone in opensim or secondlife would see you as a foreigner more the exact the opposite =)

            If possible i think the foundation should be set up in a neutral non-US/EU to avoid as much redtape as possible surely some accountant can jump thru legal hoops to make it happen legally

            You, Maria, Shelby, should be involved in this foundation as part of the new commitee for transparency alone, while most would agree as well i believe you represent the greater good of the community..

          • Douglas Maxwell

            The easiest way to make sure you are not forgotten is to be an active participant in the process.

          • Da Hayward

            that is a good point Talla. We are a international community. I think this tends to be forgotten by quite a few.

        • Cinder Biscuits

          I would suggest that an app coin is not the way to go at this point. The security of blockchain ownership is tied to the security of both the underlying blockchain and the software powering it. The more expensive the cost of attack for a particular blockchain, the more secure the blockchain. If you do not having massive amounts of decentralized computing power the way coins like Bitcoin, Litecoin, and Etherium do to keep mining pools in balance, you risk a single pool controlling the majority of the hash power. If a majority pool were to attack the network, it could reorganize the blockchain, add or remove transactions, deny updates, and so on. The more peers a network has, the more resilient the network is to traditional DOS attacks.

          Without a technical reason to fork your own cryptocurrency, and there have been very few that would justify a fork, you lose currently 1,700,000 TH/s of hashing power and gain nothing besides branding rights.

  • Guest

    Your being watched no matter what you do, from riding a public bus,visiting a store or walking down the street.
    it’s all possible your credit cards and phone tells a database your every move. someone might be perving you thru a webcam unsecured right now in your home.
    Halcyon or a Million Dollar Toilet for the space shuttle, if they do not use the funding they can lose it too.

  • Hey folks, you might want to get a look at how this guy is doing much more than his own thing to bring core down.

    Doug, you need to pay attention to your own little thing with you and people who are just like you and leave the attempted proselytizing, bullying, and other nonsense away from core.

    Of course this is why you and inworldz owners get along, they have the same mentality.

    Stay with you own stuff military boy (hehe, military boy, that’s funny) Most of us don’t even care.

  • I have been reading all this and doing a small amount of specific research in order to try and get a bit of a better understanding. Coding itself holds little interest for me other than if some software works enough for me to enjoy myself and pass a little time, that’s all I need personally.

    I would suggest that while people discuss who has the better software and who is bigger than whom, that there should be an actual real, and professional, consideration of the basic users, most of whom don’t know about any of this and the rest don’t care.

    People are not just some programmers 1s and 0s.

    This typifies the issues in my opinion.

    After you read this you might realize that it sounds all good and dandy, but that is not the entire truth of the matter.

    You basically have, on the one hand, core opensim, which has been moving along for years, who has given us a platform that we all enjoy, to each their own, and who has made Doug’s MOSES team and inworldz halcyon thing even possible. Without those developers who work for free none of this would be here at all (and please spare us the idea someone else would have done it).

    It didn’t come easy and it never is, even I can understand that, and the most programming I knew was edlin (go look that up lol). Mostly a thankless job as I would hope we can all agree.

    But therein lies the problem. We do now have this situation where it has become most clear there are two distinct groups of thought. This has been building up for a time, but the MOSEs team has ratcheted it up a bit.

    And that’s just fine also. Some like one thing, others like another thing, and all the colors in between are all fascinating.

    But that is not all that is happening, and I take the time to write this to those who currently enjoy the OpenSim that our developers have given us, that is better in so many ways to even what paid devs have done. Copying SL takes little effort when countered against all the work core has done. And the next release is about to come out.

    And of course as most of us know even a little bit of tech knowledge, we can acknowledge, like that for any uses of OpenSim, there will be issues, and those will be fixed, more will pop up, and those will be fixed. It’s software!

    It is extremely unprofessional to read some of the things here written by people who think they are professionals, but they “just want to be thought of as so”. But yet, this is part of the conversation. You simply cannot, out of the blue, call oneself a professional without the actual professional conduct and regard for fair and honest discourse by people who really understand fiduciary responsibility, as with other people’s money, and as with exposing the faults of others with whom one may find themselves at cross purposes with.

    That’s for politicians, and none of us are that (we can only wish and hope). Professionals have a code of conduct and they do their best to adhere to it, even if it is not written in stone.

    But we see here a pattern. A pattern that seeks to push one thing out of the way, while embellishing their own concepts and ideas. To speak negatively of something many of us have enjoyed using to each their own, and for some quite a few years, is dishonorable.

    It speaks to a certain mentality that it is “ok” to play dirty, it’s not.

    I don’t like to talk about my real life all that much, and it’s definitely in the past. Mostly I just like to goof off and try to have a little fun, but this is to serious for that, and sometimes it is necessary for a person, or people, to put their best foot forward and bring some comeuppance to the issues.

    I know very well what it is to be professional and what it actually means as I was a Realtor for around 30 years or so. Realtors, despite what some people like to believe, have a well written code of conduct. Fiduciary duty is at it’s core, we cannot commingle our funds with a clients, as an example. It is reinforced by annual classes and enforced by each statewide organizations.

    To be reported to those oversears is a very unpleasant idea to all Realtors, there are real consequences to unprofessional acts.

    We are not seeing that in these discussions, what we are seeing is people who think they need to say they are professional so much, that one would think the idea is that it will come true if said enough times. That they need to be so emphatic that the old ways, the core opensim ways, are passe. This isn’t true at all.

    The fact is that it is all well and good that Doug and his MOSES team like using the inworldz halcyon code, it is fine to discuss all their perceived plusses about it, even embellishing at times is ok. It is fine if they go on their way doing what they want to do with it all.

    What is not ok, and unprofessional, is to deride and insult, much less attack, an opposing thought process and those who use it, and like it.

    Do your own thing is the right thing, repeated attempts at unprofessional actions are not.

    I love our Opensim and our core devs need to be applauded, let’s not forget who brought us here to this website, and give them a thumbs up sometime, and say it more. We have a very large reservoir of talent in core, people who have a sharing spirit and are just awesome. I won’t be a part of any militarily hardened opensim and there is no reason for me to. I know that thousands of others feel the same…be well

    • lmpierce

      In my reading of the MOSES notification for which you’ve provided a link, the emphasis is on security flaws. The document calls for a 90-day period for receiving responses and review before publishing technical specifics of the security vulnerabilities.

      Who would argue that security flaws, or any other kind of flaw, are ever desirable in software, for any purpose, private or public? I imagine that as the Internet evolved from ARPANET to what we use today there were innumerable discussions about protocols for purposes of security, reliability and technological practicality. Therefore, given the evidence that has been presented, I do not see the notification by the MOSES team as an exclusive or reductive attempt for military hardening, any more than it should be derided as an attempt for educational hardening (to protect students) or commercial enterprise hardening (to protect trade secrets) or personal privacy hardening (to protect the sanctity of our private lives). Security is no longer trivial in a world that is clearly not benign when it comes to those who interfere, harm and destroy from a computer. And to be clear, based on the evidence of the document that identifies specific issues in the OpenSim code related to integrity and resilience from uninvited tampering, it’s hard to get behind any alarm over this list of four concerns.

      What I could see as a major consideration is the impracticality of counting on the current user/development base to actually implement such enhancements and changes. So on the one hand there are issues, and on the other hand there do not appear to be the resources that would make such revisions a reality, even if there was a consensus that such revisions would be prudent and useful. In fact, there have been many proposals for improvements to OpenSim that have languished due to a lack of resources and consensus.

      So to the extent that you honor what we have, absolutely it is quite remarkable that the OpenSim platform has garnered such a great deal of love and value as the outcome of mostly volunteer efforts. I see no reason, however, to posit that the future of OpenSim must remain true to any of its shortcomings, especially on fundamental operational issues such as security. I read nothing in the document presented for consideration that indicated that user purposes for OpenSim would be derailed, prevented or usurped. But again, this may all be a moot point as moving forward on OpenSim development to such a degree would require considerable time and talent that simply may not be available.

      • You can, of course, see that mainly Doug’s report is pure altruism.

        Part of my point includes words mentioned elsewhere that combined make this not so altruistic.

        There is the fact, that has been well mentioned, that Doug was either ignored, to some extent, by core devs…or that he wanted to do things in a way core has not been doing them. A more teamwork approach would have been more professional, maybe from both sides.

        So Doug has tied his shoestrings to halcyon and inworldz and thinks it is a good fit. That is fine also.

        The issue is in how it is being presented. Since Doug has been emphatic about how well he thinks halcyon works and how well he likes the team there. Then that is fine.

        So I ask why keep bothering core? Are they so desperate? Does he not have enough to do on his own stuff now, a fork that works separate from core?

        Why keep comparing halcyon to core? Is that really necessary? I propose it is not. I suggest that he and them just do their thing, from all words it is apparently a big project with big ideas attached to it.

        It no longer has to do with core.

        As Ubit replied at that link, they are already aware of some issues, and that the #1 issue he suggests to take up with SL. That might be quite a dignified way of saying mind your own business, but of course I only conjecture.

        But yet it seems the right choice.

        Is there some reason why MOSEs and halcyon need have anything to do with core, they often say how much better they are, and while debatable and based upon individual perceptions, it would seem they can just talk about their stuff and keep busy enough.

        Thus why I discuss professionalism, another word bandied about nilly willy and aimed at the core devs, and by extension all those actual professionals who use core opensim.

        One would think that such a glorious product MOSEs is involved with would almost speak for itself.

        I suggest a tone down and a re-evaluation of motives and the process.

        • Usually, when you discover security issues in software that has the same roots and/or share code, you share the finding so all parties can fix the issue.

          I don’t even understand why you make rants about this.

          • I could say I like to rant, as you put it, but I am not in that mood atm.

            The point is still being missed and I will just have to accept I am not putting it across properly, or maybe a different place would be better.

            I think most here are thinking of code only.

          • Your main problem is you don’t even understand who this so-called “core” is any more. Fact is that the number of people contributing to OpenSim code this year can be counted on two hands, and maybe even one if you want to be pedantic.

            That is not even close to the need for moving the project forward with any predictable direction. – Which has been one of MOSES’s chief objections. Opensim is organised like the scrum project from hell without any other loose goal than achieving SL parity. A goal that has been a lost cause for a long time.

          • Well then it sounds like this project will be very good for you.

          • What’s good for me is beyond this discussion. If OpenSim is to survive it needs to snap out of it and outline a future for itself that the developers everyone is asking to put effort into it find it worthwhile of their time.

          • I,m sorry but I am not going to jump on that bandwagon Gere. Core has brought us all to where we are, I am going to put my trust that his will continue. It is not like core and contributors haven’t add some fun and cool implementations. Though I suppose that is a matter of opinion nowadays.

            If it all goes to hell then it will. I have seen so much software be big and then disappear, but we all survived it, I think.

            I will tell you this in closing (I need to rest). If I was a paranoid woman I might think that any minute now some testosterone laden military men would fall from the sky and burst in my home…or perhaps that’s just a fantasy. tc

          • This is just an allegory ” If I was a paranoid woman I might think that any minute now some testosterone laden military men would fall from the sky and burst in my home…or perhaps that’s just a fantasy.”

          • Antares Scorpius

            Here here.

          • Allan Carr

            I know I shouldn’t jump in here, but I have been worked on projects that got to the point Opensimulator has reached. Firmly stuck in first gear, fixing one bug and creating two more due to inadequate testing, constant releases churning the codebase, huge mass of undocumented code a lot of which had been commented out, etc. etc. The projects that were saved were saved by the application of exactly the sort of software engineering discipline discussed in the original post. It is past time for Opsensimulator to move on and to grow up.

          • Antares Scorpius

            I would suggest it is more verbal diarrhoea than anything.

        • lmpierce

          I can see your point about suggesting that forks remain distinct, which sounds sensible in many instances given how there are different needs and purposes involved in the use of OpenSim.

          It is my understanding, however, that the idea of implementing the proposed changes to core OpenSim was driven primarily by the dynamic that MOSES is working to develop an HTML5 Web-based browser interface that would break backwards compatibility with the core OpenSim code; the technical basis of the compatibility issues being the requirement for safe data transmission protocols.

          Now it could be seen, I believe, as an opportunity for the OpenSim core product to have that long wished for browser viewer. This really makes the whole proposition quite positive.

          • While a lot of people are quite in love with the idea of “any” web-based interface, and so would I be, this has been clarified already that it will be developed in conjunction with inworldz making them able to pronounce they are the first grid to have such a thing.

            I say more power to them.

            The issue is not breaking backwards compatibility, however, it is that halcyon has very different code and thus what works for them, will not for core.

            Thus then requiring “someone” to modify or otherwise create something similar for core. And that’s fine also. Thus then people saying that is unlikely to happen, but I am not so sure about that.

            There is really a serious ton of talent in core Opensim riding the hypergrids.

            But of course this does NOT mean MOSES will create yet another browser interface for core, they do not even believe it is viable and would essentially be a waste of their time.

            They are the ones who gave a contract to the inworldz people, the rest of core can continue on its own, and I personally think that is ok also.

            Most of us are not going to give up our hypergrid for some promised future and better and golly gosh darn best hypergrid setup this side of the Sirius sector.

            But we will see how it all goes down whenever that happens, I tend to not count my chickens before they hatch.

          • Papa Smurf

            we are with you miney 100%!!! everyone in everyplace!!!!
            this foundation is a foundation alright for the tombstone of opensimulator as we know it!!!!
            Keep the money out of opensimulator!!!!!
            Fight this foundation!
            Fight the Power!
            Move opensimulator to the european union!!!!!
            Supper Core Opensimulator!

            Mr Maxwell –>I Challenge You to Tear Down This Wall!!!!!

          • So Doug, you should take some clues from this, if you are capable at all. This person is exactly what I was referring to when I said, “I get that and as it has never bothered me to weigh in as my will guides me, it also serves as an side benefit to bring out those who appose such thinking and for whom they have no problem making snarky remarks and otherwise saying things that only serves to show others what kind of people are involved in all this.

            For me, if someone said such things in regard to my comments I would disavow myself, it is a sure indicator that something is wrong, and that they don’t see at all. And I have done this.”

            And that was a manipulation on my part, I am sorry about having to do this to prove a point. I don’t really think you and your friends will understand this. It is the cold reality that these types of people are your people and this is why so many do not comment here.

            I like to bring these people out to show the real issues here. And it is your rhetoric, Doug, that gives them a license to do so.

            They are simple minded and easy to pull their strings, to easy really, but the purpose is served. Let me copy it here in case something changes.

            “Papa Smurf Minethereé • 2 hours ago
            we are with you miney 100%!!! everyone in everyplace!!!!
            this foundation is a foundation alright for the tombstone of opensimulator as we know it!!!!
            Keep the money out of opensimulator!!!!!
            Fight this foundation!
            Fight the Power!
            Move opensimulator to the european union!!!!!
            Supper Core Opensimulator!

            Mr Maxwell –>I Challenge You to Tear Down This Wall!!!!!”

          • lmpierce

            The tone needs to come down a notch. Casting aspersions on the character of commenters or article writers is not permitted.

          • I know, I am trying to do this right without it being to real. I did not make those comments, I just copied them for posterity. I am sorry for the small manipulation but it seemed it would be useful.

          • I will edit it now then I gotta go to the Avatarfest.

          • Douglas Maxwell

            Upvote for humor.

          • Good Doug, a sense of humor is always a good thing and I am happy to help you with that, in my own small way.

            But of course the underling purpose of your comment shows that you really understand much less than you think you. You have already been conditioned, and easily done.

            There is something interesting I thought of a bit back.

            I realized that those people who think very highly of themselves are the easiest to get played/manipulated.

            So your course is set and you are on a roll. Have at it! You get few chances in life to do so, then it is just all downhill, some finally grasping a few concepts that their youth was unable to allow them, others just dying.

            I have a quote also that I like very much because it speaks to a very basic truth:

            “We’re all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn’t. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.” ~Charles Bukowski

            It is kinda like the molehills out of mountains phrase…some people sit on molehills and never know they are not on a mountain at all, while those on the mountain find it all sorts of amusing.

            I am sorry but your brand of doing things will only work for certain types of people. Because your type inevitably have no concept about people.

            Where you think you are among giants, you miss the reality that inside some grids there is a very different problem. All you have to do to get some understanding is to wonder that why? has inworldz remained stagnant for so many years? why is it that since they are proclaiming them selves the best of the best, does this not result in such a massive amount of new customers? The answer to that is not 1s and 0s, I can promise you that.

            You are now caught in a web of deceit by people so desperate they will do any dirty handed little thing yo get what they think they want.

            It’s all really a boorish thing. We are all but a few people and the even less amount of people are the only ones talking about it.

            You should not take any of this personally, it is just the opinion of an old lady who has noticed a few things in her life. It is sometimes also that as we grow older, we see more in some regards.

            Be well Doug-))

          • Jeez. the os as you know it is outdated, flawed, and stagnant. It needs to be updated and evolve to today’s needs to draw in MORE people who find it worth their time to get to know. You guys sound like the SL core who can’t handle anything new LL tries to do.

            OS is at a serious crossroads you don’t seem to recognize. In another thread it was likened to AOL and this is the truth. If OS devs don’t get on the ball at its core, OS dies and there is no demand but 4 or 5 like you resisting change for the better. Nobody’s trying to take it away, they want it improved and evolved and fixed and updated and BETTER.

    • dahlia

      I’d think if any the security issues listed in that message were considered flaws in the protocol and also existed in SL, then they will affect all implementations (including SL and InWorldz) using such protocol and should also be addressed at a higher level than just the opensim-dev mailing list. If they are unique to OpenSimulator and did not exist in SL or InWorldz, then notifying the current core team and perhaps known forks such as Whitecore and Arriba is likely a good choice.

      On another note, designing a new viewer and a new protocol provides the opportunity to correct many shortcomings in existing protocols. It’s not an easy task though; getting a protocol to work in a test environment or in just a few installations is a lot different than getting it to work optimally across the entire internet where much diversity of technology exists. Encryption may help with some security aspects but I’m not convinced that it’s a silver bullet after seeing how it fails to prevent so many online games from being compromised. Designing a new protocol is not a simple task but given that web browsers don’t allow UDP, it’s necessary for a HTML5 viewer.

      • Cinder Biscuits

        The flaws reported to opensim-dev@ do not effect Second Life.

        We forced them to add a lot of security checks when they open sourced the viewer and people started playing around. The session-id in Second Life is rejected unless the client is communicating from the same source ip and port effectively making MITM knowing the session-id moot. This cannot be said for OpenSim.

        • dahlia

          I thought OpenSimulator did check the IP/MAC of incoming packets but it’s been years since I looked at that code and I could be mistaken. Adding a check there might seem prudent but I wouldn’t consider it a fix because I’d consider it likely that a MITM party capable of intercepting session ids and forging and injecting packets would also be capable of spoofing IP/MAC. However I am not a security expert so please take my comment with the appropriate table spices.

  • And thank you for noticing. I am aware enough to realize that folks such as yourself and devs and interested parties are reading but not commenting.

    I get that and as it has never bothered me to weigh in as my will guides me, it also serves as an side benefit to bring out those who appose such thinking and for whom they have no problem making snarky remarks and otherwise saying things that only serves to show others what kind of people are involved in all this.

    For me, if someone said such things in regard to my comments I would disavow myself, it is a sure indicator that something is wrong, and that they don’t see at all. And I have done this.

    Rather they embrace such people as a part of their “groupthink”…that, above all, is very telling.

    This issue and the posts regarding it remind me of some Sun Tzu military campaign where the enemy is supposed to realize they are defeated, and leave the field of battle. Sun Tzu’s reputation would alone strike fear to many enemies.

    But this is not a military campaign and there is no enemy here, only mere humans, with all the faults and problems that afflict them.

    Some people, however, are so intent on casting aspersions upon others that nothing will be allowed to get in the way of that. But something will, of course, and it certainly is not me, but others who see such things for what they are, and will remember.

    There is a reason they think they need to try so hard, and there is a reason that occasional mentally unbalanced people join them and are so vehement in their disregard.

    So I put my thoughts on the matter down when I feel something needs be said, and accept that it is my bane to also then have to accept there will be those who want to knock virtual holes in them.

    That is of no consequence as the decency and passion opposing viewpoints have will read, and they will form their own opinions, the majority of them saying nothing out loud…but they are there, make no mistake about that.

    This bashing of devs in so vehement a fashion speaks for itself and while a few won’t be able to grasp that, more than a few will, especially when someone braves the naturally occurring rudeness and bullying that is always there, ready to pounce.

    I would say that such people should be applauded for their ability and strength of will to put themselves out there in the first place where the wolves and vampires will twist it to their own little mindsets.

    I know I am philosophies and should’t be, but that’s ok in the grand scheme of things.

    Those people show themselves as small minded and immature, as unprofessional no matter how much they profess to the world, as loudly and as often as they can, the basic truths will always prevail.

    But of course we know Dalia, and we always should keep in mind that one voice always represents many other voices who stand in the sidelines reading…it is that for the people who enjoy many things about the core opensimulator developers and contributors.

    It is also the way for opposing groupthinkers.

    So please rest assured your contributions and those of your peers are well appreciated and deservedly so even if it only my voice saying so.

  • And then we see yet another example. It’s really pathetic how easy it is to manipulate them, I almost feel ashamed. Perhaps there will be more, but pointing it out tends to put them back in the closet.

    “Zsun Minethereé • 3 hours ago
    Minetheree to me you speak for the majority of us, Os was created to give life kinda like ‘mother earth’… now the Military is trained coldly to ‘take it away’. If the small amount of people who always continue to disagree with us try to push this on us let them go back to the walled garden, called second life.

    Os should remain free and pure…made by magic, w’out the cold bloody hands who attempt to poison it.”

  • hehehe ty for the laugh not alex-))

  • lol, you’re a real trip aren’t you? (rhetorical question)

    Throwing confusion out works well for some people, for sure, but I am not one of those. Of course you know that, you think you’re slick.

    Since Doug upvoted your other name papa smurf it is clear he is one.

    I kinda feel sorry for him. I will answer a few more of these and move along.

    “Smurfette Minethereé • 9 hours ago
    “Wowsers” my husband and me were agreeing with what was stated, then you act this way? pfft. not sure you’re the same person we knew in kitely it’s hard to believe.
    anywho, the best thing for Opensimulator is all the developers of forks join core instead in my families viewpoint, not anything secretive behind my statement!

    Fyi..Some of us get tired of being punished for say’n whats right, consider thinking about that before assuming such things, my husband already has enough reasons to drag us back to SL as it is!”

  • Douglas Maxwell

    We understand there is a long history of interpersonal issues in this community. Your individual dramas are not our concern. I will happily answer your questions regarding our research, technological advancements, and discuss ideas surrounding the proposed civilian foundation. We will ignore posts that serve as personal attacks or attempt to link us to irrelevant unresolved ancient arguments. I will continue to treat you with respect and only ask that you do the same.

    There is a passion in the community and we appreciate how much you care about your platform as we have come to care for it as well. Please think before you post. Be civil and try to treat each other as if you are in the same room, sharing a drink.

    I appreciate your email and so far it has been 100% positive and constructive. Thank you for that.

  • Dahlia,

    Without your meshmerizer work, converting the internal LL prim formats and LL mesh formats to something readable by other clients would’ve taken 10x the effort.

    The work is much appreciated and definitely a huge stepping stone enabling even more development.

    All the best in your endeavors

    • dahlia

      Thanks, Dave. Of course you folks are welcome to use and build upon my work there. I should mention though that while I am the primary author of PrimMesher, there was some previous work done by those before me to add physical prim shape support to OpenSimulator and I borrowed a concept from that work. The mesh asset decoding was a joint collaboration between the late Latif Khalifa and myself and I cannot take full credit there. Some of the work with Sculpted prims was done before and most of my work was to extend it and make it more useful.

      Many viewer and rendering projects have successfully used PrimMesher and all I ask is that the credits include something like “Uses PrimMesher. The primary author of PrimMesher is Dahlia Trimble”. This is only a courtesy and is not required. So far to my knowledge there has only been one project which has refused to do this. There used to be a separate repository for PrimMesher on but last I checked that site disappeared. I should put my most recent sources on github somewhere and make it the primary repository.

      I wish you folks the best of luck and success with your viewer project. If you get stuck somewhere, feel free to contact me and I might be able to offer some suggestions.

      • We’ll be sure to reach out. I actually mentioned you a few times in regard to the project while at UCF knowing you had done something similar. I’ll add a credits file today to the conversion utilities with the “Uses PrimMesher” clause.

  • So now it is time to make some conclusions about the conversation, here and elsewhere on the same subject. I laid it out to see the mettle of a man. To try and better understand the man and his organization.

    This has nothing to do with people’s free choices at all, and why should it, I can’t tell anyone what to do and would never want to, and never have. I have never bullied as I don’t even have that in me as a woman.

    I wanted to do this because it is an important topic. I recognize it is important. It is important then to understand the main actors. Some others are known. None of this has been an attack on anybody, but in fact has been a reasonable conversation pointing out some things of which it didn’t even matter were answered (even by those who did lol). It was intended as food for thought, in order to help people make more accurate decisions, if they noticed what I was saying, or not.

    The discussion was never about me. The discussion is about OpenSim, and whom some people wish to choose to be involved with. Why would it become so, people might ask themselves. I have no commercial interests nor do I have any obligations to anyone. I do what I want to do in my pastime, that’s all.

    This man had absolutely no problem at all in posting the below report publicly. Some may think he made an accident but review the other statements pertaining to professionalism and statements referring to a several years interest. Someone who some people think is knowledgeable and professional.

    So you have to ask yourselves, as I have done, and asked others. Was this a simple accident, or was in on purpose.

    I suggest that such a learned and professional man did not make such a simple mistake. The ramifications, though Ubit answered it properly, could and likely will result in some problems. I doubt it will be all that bothersome though.

    That’s ok as I am sure many would say. I submit it is not, and I submit that posting it even in the first place was designed to cause issues. As Ubit notes, “Luckily all this set of flaws is already known by this list subscribers, so no harm done.” Please read the link in it’s entirety and you can make your own conclusions.

    There are several comments in this article alone that speak to some deeper issues.

    “It must be led by grown-ups who know how to run a professional entity.”

    Pardon me? Who are the grown-ups and who are the professional? Has this been answered? I wasn’t aware that to be a professional involved unprofessional insulting of others.

    No, just more of the same.

    “1) History has shown that the core developers have a difficult time with large code contributions from outside contributors” as part of an answer in this article:

    “OpenSim is dangerously close to turning into the AOL of virtual worlds.”

    ”We will ignore posts that serve as personal attacks or attempt to link us to irrelevant unresolved ancient arguments.”

    Huh? Why is this even part of conversation?

    The last part is referring to an issue I had over 4 yrs ago with the female owner off inwordz but It has nothing to do with this. I didn’t even mention it because it is in fact, ancient. I find this very telling. Why focus on that? Are some of my words hitting home? Are some people on such unsure footing they need to bring up some old thing to try and make me look bad?

    Do I even care if I am made to look bad? I can tell you no, none of that matters at all.

    I have never even discussed this with him. Is this some insult intended to create a false impression of me just because I made some comments he did not understand and thus, de facto, I am reduced to a person who would even do such a thing after 4 yrs? How strange.

    He was obviously told this as only 2 ppl were involved in that old and very weird conversation and neither one was him. So now we can understand that this man has no problem stating a falsity without even giving any care to the fact there are always two sides of a story.

    How odd.

    I think we can all understand that for every reaction there is an action. I reacted years ago and not even in a tit for tat fashion and have been in the free hyperverse aspect of opensim since then. Many more years than I was in all closed commercial grids. Though one of those has since enabled HG.

    I love it, promote it in my own small ways, and have many acquaintances as well as old friends. I know some awesome creators and Artists, of people who share for free because that is who they are, and they have thrown of the commercial interests. They will not be a part of this initiative…and so what. They can do what they want just as well as we all can.

    I am just a user. But my life’s experiences have given me a very inquisitive personality.

    I rarely accept things on the face of it, and sometimes dig further, sometimes even to creating a situation where it “rocks the boat” in order to bring certain elements in the open.

    It doesn’t matter what I say so why all the nonsense? I know. Should people be paying more attention? Is the reason the attempt to reduce me to an issue over 4 years ago mean that someone is hiding something? Is it just over-jealous egos?

    So this is to the users, it all was. My suggestion is that if commercial interests wish to be involved in this, go for it, nothing I say should even matter. All the commercial grids, open or closed can join this. Heck, that would be better for the rest of us, have at it I say!

    But I do not see the unprofessionalism being displayed as appropriate to the conversation. None of us will be bullied, many of us have lived full lives as professional people.

    It seems to be that the aggressive behaviour some are exhibiting toward the actual growing part of Opensim is saying something that should be noticed.

    In conclusion, how about the people who don’t want anything to do with core opensimulator, just go do this. How about getting the job done without accusations, insults, and over aggressiveness. How about just chilling?

    Then you won’t have someone like me pointing out why this is so wrong…I can keep on doing things I like to do, and the ones interested in this can do the same.

    What’s so wrong with having decent relationships even with those who prefer something different. It’s no problem with me and us, so why is it otherwise?

    No responses needed.