2016 hasn’t been easy for OpenSim

This past year has been a troubling one for OpenSim, with slowing growth rates and increasing concerns that OpenSim will be sidelined by advances in virtual reality platforms.

Active users numbers went up, but at a slower rate than in any of the previous years, and a steep decline from the record-high growth rates that we saw last year.

Active user numbers and growth rates. (Hypergrid Business data.)

Registered users were up only slightly, with a lower growth rate than in any of the previous years.

Registered user numbers and growth rates. (Hypergrid Business data.)

And total land area on OpenSim’s public grids actually decreased this year.

Region numbers and growth rates. (Hypergrid Business data.)

Some grids did better than others, however.

The top ten fastest-growing grids were AllCitySinful GridDigiWorldzMetropolisGenesis MetaVerseKitelyLost ParadiseDreamNationOSgrid and Exo-Life.

Active user numbers and year-over-year increase. (Hypergrid Business data.)

AllCity was the biggest gainer, with a net increase of 1,077 active users since this time last year. AllCity also ranked the highest in this year’s grid survey.

InWorldz had the biggest drop in active users. It went from 6489 this time last year to 5947 this month, a fall of 542 active users. Logicamp lost 439 after a serious server failure this fall, and Great Canadian Grid lost 410 active users after it capped its growth.

Registered user numbers and year-over-year increase. (Hypergrid Business

Kitely brought in the highest number of new registered users, at 24,630, with InWorldz a closest second at 23,398.

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maria@hypergridbusiness.com'

Maria Korolov

Maria Korolov is editor and publisher of Hypergrid Business. She has been a journalist for more than twenty years and has worked for the Chicago Tribune, Reuters, and Computerworld and has reported from over a dozen countries, including Russia and China. Follow me on Twitter @MariaKorolov.

  • Da Hayward

    Great Article Maria. I think 2016 has been a troubling year for a lot of people in all area’s not just Open Sim.
    I still think OS is a great opportunity for most and hoping 2017 will be a lot more stable.
    Congratulations to all the grids showing growth.

  • Unfortunately I think OpenSim will continue to struggle also in 2017 for a number of reasons:

    • SecondLife has suddenly become more viable for many prospects and even OpenSim users in that there has been a combination of price adjustments with access to more prims (or LI as they call them now), but more importantly the avatar new rigging (Beto) will release very significant creativity.

    • Oz Linden was recently asked about development of the Oculus viewer, and he said it will never happen. Since one have to render 2 x 60 frames per second (one for each eye) to avoid motion sickness, he does not think it is doable in the foreseeable future unless you use a very high-end system that will exclude all but a few users. Of course this realization (which they have reached through the Sansar project) applies equally to OpenSim.

    • While the 0.9 dev is technically a success (mostly), for grid owners and end users it is painful because it is to a large extent disruptive. This would of course not be an issue if the development was kept in isolation, but since it is pushed on OSGrid it spills all over the place where you introduce bugs and changed behavior to a large user base at a stage where the code still is in flux. If OpenSim wants to attract a wider audience, such a disruptive development process is not going to fly. A certain amount of predictability (roadmap), stability and compatibility across version releases must exist.

    • The MOSES project is not going to be a panacea for OpenSim users in general. The development is not geared to provide OpenSim for standalone users, but rather for professional applications and grids with an IT staff. While Halcyon is technically superior to current OpenSim core in many respects it also requires significantly more expertise on running it, particularly when it comes to asset storage and the database environment.

    • Equally the html viewer seen as the savior will not bring the advances people anticipate for two reasons; a) the renderer of such a viewer will have to be completely rewritten and I doubt MOSES (or anyone else) is ready to do that, but b) if it somehow should succeed OpenSim simply does not scale to take on a significant influx of users.

    • The renderer in the viewers (also an html version) is increasingly lagging behind standards and operating system versions. To the extent Linden Lab will now start their own separate renderer project as to quote Oz Linden “it is the most complicated and least understood part of the viewer code”. – Code which requires very specific expertise (high paid jobs) to work on and develop. They have had an opening for a rendering engineer for a very long time and I am not sure it is filled yet.

    • Some of the most used viewers are increasingly becoming incompatible with operating system versions and development tools. The Singularity viewer does not compile at all in most cases and have not seen an update for almost 1 1/2 years. Despite efforts from the likes of Cinder Roxley, I think it is beyond salvation. Both Mac and Linux versions of any viewer is struggling (for different reasons) and in the case of the Mac version does not build on the most recent version of Apple’s development tools, and can barely be made to run on the latest system version and recent hardware. The same is the case for viewers running on Windows 10; in many cases they barely limp along. Linden Lab has stopped their contribution to Linux development.
    2017 can prove to be a particularly difficult year for viewers as both professional developers (Linden Lab) and the community will have to put substantial effort into keeping them running.

    • Allan Carr

      Very good analysis and I agree completely. I tend to look away from Second Life for extended periods for one reason or another. When I retired my previous Second Life incarnation (is this Second Death?), Second Life and Opensim were on about an equal footing as far as graphics and general usability went; in fact. Opensim was performing marginally better. Two years later and Second Life is miles ahead. The overall graphics is amazing, the mesh ecosystem (avis, clothes, attachments) is jaw-dropping.

      The downside, of course, is the cost. It all looks great if you have a fairly high-end computer with a decent graphics card, and I am running a Best Buy cheapo with on-board graphics. I can run all day in Opensim, and in Second Life I cannot even be in any place with more than about 10 avis without the viewer eating all my memory after about 10 minutes. I never thought of Second Life as a gaming app, but it is now.

      This “rendering gap” will likely widen as Linden pursues a more aggressive strategy of bringing viewer code up to current standards; this is code that was written to address hardware from almost 2 decades ago. Without a native viewer, increasing incompatibility with Second Life does not bode well for the future of Opensim for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the stark contrast between the two environments causing errant Second Lifers to run screaming back to their mesh avis.

      The big upside to Opensimulator is the metaverse. It still contains the potential to become the 3D web, and it would be a real shame were that concept to get lost.

  • Don’t invent stats Maria. We no longer present you with stats on our active user count. In the past we included our HG user count when we provided you stats, but we no longer do that. And even at that, the difference is not 441. When we last presented you with stats in November of 2015 it included the HG user count which is not included on our splash page (which is where you are getting your information now as we don’t respond to your requests). Our e-mail to you dated November 2015 presented below shows a user count including HG users of 483. Currently we have an active user count of 246 (not including HG users). Even at that it’s a difference of 237 (which is roughly our HG user count give or take that we no longer provide to you), not 441.

    Please feel free to continue your misinformation about other grids at your leisure, but if you plan to post anything about Littlefield, see if you can’t be accurate for a change.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1b0542b677c04de38d6665154270a9ebb1ac35724cdefec48130d314659120b1.png

    • I had 673 for your active users in December 2015 and 232 this month, and that is a difference of 441. I do have 483 for you guys as of November, 2015. and 282 this past November, so that’s a difference of 201, if I was doing a November-to-November comparison.

      I do have a note in my database that your stats page does not show hypergrid visitors, and I have it set up so that I send you an email once a month asking for the correct numbers.

      You don’t have to respond to those emails, of course, and get undercounted in the stats reports, but that is completely up to you. If you can provide accurate numbers, I’ll make the corrections in this article, in the last stats report, and in my database.In your comment above, you did not say what the correct number is.

      Meanwhile, I’m in the process of reevaluating the content that I have on Hypergrid Business and on Hyperica.

      I’m planning on removing ads altogether (I’ve already cut them way back, since they are a pain to manage), am considering shutting down the Hyperica site and grid, and will probably reduce or change OpenSim coverage.

      The monthly stats report is a huge amount of work — probably at least eight to 16 hours total every single month. It does result in links from a news article for all the grids mentioned, and I try to fit in a bunch of small news items, and it does get readers, but not that many. I just checked the numbers, and the average number of page views each monthly stats article got this year was 622. Totaled up, it’s about 7,000 page views, out of a total of 1,620,652 page views this year, or less than half of one percent.

      Meanwhile, I don’t think any grid owners are actually happy with these articles. With around 300 active grids, there’s guaranteed to be at least some mistakes in every report. Grids that get mentioned, complain that I’m picking on them. Grids that don’t get mentioned complain that I’m biased against them.

      However, without the monthly stats report, the active grids list would go out of date almost immediately, and so will the list of most popular hypergrid destinations, and grids will no longer get a fresh inbound link from a news site every month (it took work to get our site into Google News, they have to approve them manually, and inbound links count for more).

      Anyway, if anyone has any suggestions for this, email me at [email protected]. And especially if you want to volunteer to help out.

      And, again, if there’s a problem with the stats, or any other issues, just email me and I’ll fix it.

  • LordNine

    Is it time yet to mention that there is another code source that OpenSim could use…RealXTend’s Tundra platform…instead of Second Life…and that way veer off from SecondLife forever, while still being code that seems familiar but more recent/advanced ?

  • Talla Adam

    Interesting article, Maria but, after reading @XMIRGrid’s analysis on top of it I have to say the prospects for Opensim don’t appear very good and that’s quite depressing really when so many of us have put a lot of our time, money and energy into making the most of the platform, and done a lot to promote it as well! Trying to run a grid on the basic Opensim releases is becoming more problematic, especially for Microsoft Windows users which many of us are, and the code seems to be veering off in different directions and getting less compatible between different versions. Diva Wifi is impossible to get working for versions beyond 0.8.1.2 – there is no longer a separate package that was relatively easy to install on Windows systems, and I tried for several weeks to do it for Windows. So now I can only use 0.8.1.2 or move on to WhiteCore/Arriba perhaps, or even back to standalone. The upshot of this is running in grid mode is getting much more difficult for the average hacker like me who runs a none-profit grid. It must be even more worrying for anyone who is trying to run a commercial grid on a small budget. Fact is we are being both priced out and out-witted by the complexity creeping into the system at the whims of developers who seem to have different road maps in mind.

    The Dev’s can talk about Opensim being a modular system as Diva does a lot and that means anyone – WITH CODING ABILITY – can get it to do what they want but that leaves all those with none or little coding ability out in the cold as the systems advance in favor of very specific ideas. People like me want an Opensim that is compatible across versions for as long as possible and not sudden revolutionary changes that causes huge dysfunction and inevitably great frustration leading to people giving up and going back to Second Life or onto other platforms altogether.

    Sine Wave Space, High Fidelity and others are certainly pitching for Opensim users but none of them offer the one thing that makes Opensim preferable for all of us that hold to the dream of a truly open and connected Metaverse, Hypergrid. But Hypergrid is being destroyed in my view and that is playing a part in the decline. We, I believe, are being gradually pushed back into the proprietary platforms because the Dev’s are losing sight of the founding vision.

    • In what way is Hypergrid being destroyed do you think?

      • Talla Adam

        Okay, for standalone users and those connecting to largers grids like OSgrid they sail with the wind because they’re all kept on the same page without any great need to understand anything that goes on under the hood. It works out of the box for them but my experience has been much more trying since I tried to upgrade to 0.8.2.1 since there doesn’t seem to be anyway for Windows users to make Diva Wifi work unless they are willing to switch to Linux and learn all that stuff. I would love anyone to prove me wrong and show how to get Wifi working for Window’s users running 0.8.2.1 or greater? Even Diva herself only has a Linux tutorial and says look elsewhere for Windows answers. I did and followed carefully Austin Tate and pulled my hair out trying with only partial success.

        But that is not all. I find now that because I am stuck on 0.8.1.2 some people find difficulty in finding my grid or teleporting to it. I tested this myself and used an old OGgrid avatar to TP to my grid and it always came up “region not found”. So I teleported to Kitely and, damnit!, no trouble in getting to Farworldz. So, I try with my Kitely avatar and sometimes works and sometimes it won’t. I’ve had mixed experiences for some time now and yet I paid a lot of attention to getting the settings for my grid as accurate as possible.

        Here is the thing, I can get by and if it becomes very much more difficult to run in grid mode I can switch to standalone or call it a day and give up. How much harder must it be for new people trying to master the peculiarities of Opensim as it becomes more complex and less compatible between versions and forks? Do you really expect them to go on using Opensim when, as you point out yourself, other platforms may well be doing it much better before long? My fear is we will lose the easy setup that made Opensim like setting up and web site, and nearly as cheap.

        • Hi Talla,

          We’ve done what we could inside Kitely to reduce the frequency of the Region Not Found issue that sometimes exists with Hypergrid teleports. However, as we can’t force code changes on other people’s grids there is a limit to how far our solution can go. People run many versions of OpenSim (some of them quite old and others newer but with various other issues) so even our code contributions wouldn’t really solve the problem.

          One of OpenSim’s man problems is that people use outdated server and viewer software (for all kinds of reasons, including the one you mentioned) and that greatly limits the robustness of any new fix that developers can roll out. It often takes years until a code change becomes part of an official release that is old enough to have been adopted by the majority of OpenSim users.

          • Talla Adam

            Hi IIan

            Thank you for the reply and I will say that Kitely has always proved one of the most stable grids so I did found myself chasing Hypergrid problems using your grid as a base to hop to and from when other grids failed to recognize my grid. I have received Kitely Market products at my Farworldz grid with no problems either so I must be getting the settings right enough. But yes, you hit the nail on the head when you said people tend to use various versions and that causes issues and, as Xmir pointed out Opensim 0.9 does have some issues yet to be solved.

            What I was getting at was that it was relatively easy for Windows users to set up in Grid mode with Diva Wifi before 0.8.2.0 and now it’s not. And that leaves me and others on older releases high and dry because the dev’s are changing direction to suit themselves I think – like Diva wanting to make more of the modular architecture that suits her Onlook viewer, or Mel pushing the Avination branch to be more compatible with Second Life. The worry is I’m not sure if the Opensim model, as a commercial market supported by Hypergrid, has much of a future any more beyond that of a sharing niche and some education interests if it continues this way. But perhaps that is really all the current developers ever wanted it to be.

          • I can’t speak for OpenSim as a whole but I can say that Kitely plans to continue pursuing the open Metaverse vision regardless of how OpenSim ends up developing. The great majority of what Kitely developed isn’t OpenSim specific and we’ve already announced that High Fidelity will be our next supported architecture.

            High Fidelity (the company) may currently be more focused on creating a High Fidelity (company) led Metaverse than a truly open one but there is no reason why a Hypergrid-like protocol can’t be added to the High Fidelity codebase so that the vision of the Hypergrid will continue to evolve even if the OpenSim codebase ends up stagnating.

            Having said that, High Fidelity is still missing a lot of features that OpenSim users have grown to expect (some of which are quite basics, such as having an Avatar Inventory). So, it will likely be quite a while until High Fidelity can become a viable replacement for OpenSim. In other words, It is likely to be a viable evolutionary path for the OpenSim community but not one that will displace OpenSim any time soon.

          • Talla Adam

            Well that does shine a light in the tunnel, IIan and I’m glad Kitely aim to stick with the vision of an open Metaverse embodied in the Hypergrid protocol for both commercial and sharing interests. Although I know little about High Fidelity I did wonder if it might eventually become the next gen’ Hypergrid. So, it’s reassuring to know that Kitely at least aims to stay the course. That High Fidelity is designed as a VR platform as well when Opensim is not really up to it does sound promising too.

            I would just say, while I’m here, I agree with those who think Kitely should keep the minimum 10kc payment on Kitely market so it doesn’t become flooded with freebies like the SL market. Online markets in my view should stay commercial and that helps inworld activity as people shop for free content by using Hypergrid to get around. Just a passing thought.

        • Unless you have ambitions to develop a grid with a number of services and offer it to a user community, you are probably best off with running a standalone with hypergrid access.

          If you run a grid you are best off running the grid with a release version of OpenSim, and the most recent release is .0.8.2.

          Running a grid on the development branch can be a testing experience as there are always a number of bugs and incompatibilities introduced in the process and you need to be prepared for frequent updates of the grid servers. It could be as frequent as multiple times per week in periods.

          That there isn’t a version of Diva Wifi for 0.9 dev is very understandable from her perspective. If she were to support it for the development branch, she could potentially have to produce updates almost on a weekly basis. For add-ons like this, you usually wait till the development code is close to release before you update to minimize the effort to update it.

          The fact that the development code is pushed on to the large OSGrid sometimes sends ripples of incompatibility down the Hypergrid, as is the case for the time being where there are changes to how Hypergrid transfers are handled in the 0.9 dev branch compared to the stable 0.8.2 release.
          This is a development model I don’t particularly care for as the ramifications of bugs can be very widespread and unintended. A good example is the disaster that was mesh incompatibility that propagated to virtually all grids late in the 0.8.2 development process.

          • Allan Carr

            Again I agree with XMIR completely. IMHO the devs are not handling testing in any way that is compatible with current industry best practice. Without proper Q&A every release simply propagates buggy code which leads to more releases to fix that and so on ad infinitum. The end result is an application ecosystem which becomes poisoned and totally untrustworthy. Development is not proceeding in any way that will result in a more usable piece of software, but which will very gradually introduce new features with very little regard for the existing user base. This is not entirely a bad thing: nobody asked for hypergrid and it is finally working really well. However, It must be very difficult to run a grid, especially a commercial grid, with software like that!

    • I don’t think hypergrid is being destroyed — certainly users on the hypergrid are increasing, as is traffic to the Hyperica grid, which is a hyperport. (It would be nice if other hyperports shared their traffic numbers.) The problem is that it’s growing slowly. Development seems focused on serving the current niche use cases, since that’s where the developers come from.

      The problem with existing users is that they tend to be reasonably happy with things as they are. They just want some minor improvements. Less lag, more content, lower prices, that kind of thing. And that’s happening. Things like a Web viewer or VR support are “nice to have” not “must have” because current users are happily living without them right now.

      But in order for OpenSim to become the foundation of a free, open source, hyper-connected metaverse (my dream!) it has to get VR support and a Web viewer FAST. And that’s a problem, since — unlike the early days of the Web, where the main competitor was AOL and it had NO interop plans — we now have Google in the game, which is all about being open source and interoperable.

      I hate to say it, but Google’s done a decent job with Gmail and Chrome and the million free services it offers. Now it’s bought Improbable, and is offering free cloud hosting for early-state VR worlds with SpacialVR. It already has a built-in virtual money platform for all the Android mobile apps (in-app payments), and it has a portable identity service (your Google account). All it’s missing is avatars and inventories and it will have all the pieces of a metaverse right there. Plus, they’ve already got the largest VR install base — http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2016/11/report-98-of-vr-headsets-sold-this-year-are-for-mobile-phones/

      My big fear at the start of all this was that Microsoft, Apple or Facebook was going to own the metaverse. That doesn’t look like it’s happening. Microsoft is barely in the game, and is still trying to bet on its (shrinking) Windows install base while VR is mostly mobile. Apple isn’t even in the game yet, and their mobile market share is falling, anyway. Facebook’s bet on the closed, proprietary Oculus ecosystem with the Oculus Rift and the Samsung Gear VR seems not to be paying off. The Rift is as expensive (and, my many accounts — including mine) not as good as the HTC Vive, while Samsung has that whole exploding phone problem.

      So the race is against Google. And frankly, I don’t know how I feel about that. Yes, Google is a giant that owns all our data. But it’s also a big proponent of open source, of interoperability, and of letting people have choices. I can use any email system I want with Chrome, and any browser with Gmail, You can bundle in pretty much anything you want into your Android phone, and use just about any apps you want and change the interface radically f you want (but you shouldn’t since that will just annoy your customers). And once it has market dominance, where other companies would start charging through the nose, Google doesn’t. Gmail, Google Docs, Chrome — all its basic services are still free. And they keep adding more free services. Google Analytics. Google’s ad platform, DoubleClick for Publishers, its cloud service is free for small users, Android, Daydream — even the hardware specs are open source.

      For an evil empire, they seem to be doing a reasonable job of not being too evil. (Just moderately evil.)

      If it was a choice between Microsoft, Facebook and Google, I’d vote for Google as the lesser of the three evils.

      So far, OpenSim has benefited from Linden Lab’s total lack of vision, and Google ignoring this space because it was working on more interesting things. It’s virtual world attempt, Lively, came and went quickly. But this time around, Google seems to be betting very very big on VR. It’s baked into their latest operating system. It was the focus of their last developers conference. They’re baking it it into all their major apps — WebVR in the browser, VR support in YouTube and StreetView.

      They’re putting huge resources into this, and they seem to be headed in the direction I want to go, anyway.

      Any day now, an app developer is going to announce a free, mobile-accessible VR app with in-world building tools and someone else will announce a portable avatar and inventory service and that’s it. Game over.

      • As far as I can gather Apple does not believe the timing for VR is right at the moment, but is working on an Augmented reality push.

        This year’s WWDC saw a few announcements that will also be helpful developing VR applications in that they added Tessellation support to Metal, meaning you can send low resolution mesh models to the GPU and it will expand the geometry to high resolution during the render pass. In addition they added more capabilities to GameplayKit such as the ability to build much more sophisticated state machines. There were also significant improvements to lighting and particle systems.

    • I don’t understand “But Hypergrid is being destroyed in my view and that is playing a part in the decline” @disqus_VYiOZ1Awb8:disqus ? I regularly use the hypergrid even with less and less issues, and so do many others.

  • Da Hayward

    Hey Everyone! Have a very Merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous 2017.

  • In my opinion, OpenSim was the grand experiment to break free of the clutches of Second Life during the Rodvik Linden administration. A sort of “jump the sinking ship” move, which as it turned out didn’t sink but merely listed. Due to its very nature of being open source, there are always going to be different versions running, much like different versions of Linux. I honestly can’t see OpenSim making significant ground against the likes of SL and Sansar and High Fidelity. And if Maria is right: “Any day now, an app developer is going to announce a free, mobile-accessible VR app with in-world building tools and someone else will announce a portable avatar and inventory service and that’s it. Game over.”

    I have to echo the concept of supporting a hypergrid standard. It needs a simple common code to let older OpenSim builds use it, as well as newer builds and bastions like SL and Kitely to work its own magic. And of course if the holy grail of a common inventory and an avatar for VR (encompassing gaming sites and places like IMVU) in situ and yes it IS game over.

    • Cinder Biscuits

      “In my opinion, OpenSim was the grand experiment to break free of the clutches of Second Life during the Rodvik Linden administration.”

      Except that OpenSim predates that by almost five years.

      • Let’s just say that I started paying attention to OpenSim during the Rodvik years

  • So I did my own blogpage on this issue lol http://minethere.blogspot.com/2016/12/everything-is-fine.html

    The thing is that people (especially the gate keepers ) need to focus on those aspects that actually are doing well and growing.

    It’s the old chicken and egg thing, really. You post enough of the good things going on, as we do and is our mission https://hgvisionz.wordpress.com/. Then more people will get excited, or curious, or see the potentials, such at vast roleplaying lands, etc.

    I know “you, Maria” do post many of those things of course, but then you miss it up with obviously failing side issues.

    Focus is the key…we simply can’t please everyone by trying to post about everything…focus.

    I don’t write my nonsense expecting anyone to do anything different than what they already do of course…but hopefully food for thought.

    Don’t let the naysayers (who always have negative agendas) distract us from what is really going on.

    Yes, there are issues, yes, there are code issues…but overall, for those people who genuinely want to enjoy (what I focus on) the hyperverse, people when led properly by facts and knowledge and help, which so many are willing to give, they more often than not have a lot of fun.

    Of course it is not really about fun the commercialism of our places but if we can mediate a middle road of commercialism and free thinkers using the hypergrid, and push this out to anyone and anyplace, we do new people a big favor by doing so.

    Why try to keep pushing square pegs into round holes? it does not work. Show them the possibilities by both example and with correct knowledge.

    Don’t let the naysayers bring yourselves down to their levels, they want everything else but their own little spaces to fail, this isn’t cool…they need to be seen for what they really are.

    I have had to cut back a lot but even so I see so much happening in the Hyperverse, so much that I just cannot keep up best…and that is just the Hyperverse aspect of OpenSim.

    Let’s truly support opensimulator developers if only in spirit…we can’t all do what they do, we can’t all donate some money, but like I used to do in life when I volunteered for things, I didn’t have the money to help much but I did have me.

    If people wish to make a n3egative situation and say words that make this all self-defeating, it will happen…and that’s a basic truth.

    We cannot dismiss the thousands of people who still use SL…because obviously even some bare hundreds of them gives us pause to sing Hallelujah.

    I continue to see new people in our Hyperverse coming from SL and it is to those people can address some of our resources.

    Something like this could be more promoted, not just by those involved, that’s a given, but others talk them up also. https://www.kitely.com/virtual-world/Mike-Lorrey/SLexit

    There are those who would like nothing better than to have SL people go back to SL, users who have left their places come back. and have no issue at all doing what they can to make that happen…..ignore them!

    Those are the ignorant ones…we are better!

    btw, Happy 2017 to you all-))

    • Da Hayward

      Read Your Blog & it put a big “Smile on My Dial”.
      Happy New Year Minetheree

      • Thank you, and I used less words than normal also, maybe that should be my new year’s resolution hehe…back to ya Da-)