ZanGrid goes live with Gloebit, merchant payouts coming soon

ZanGrid went live with the Gloebit virtual currency on Monday as the platform gets ready to start approving merchant cashouts. The currency can also already be used on Mobius Grid.

Users can use a single virtual wallet to shop on any Gloebit-supported grid, and, when the grids allow, take the purchases home with them via the hypergrid.

Previously, OpenSim merchants had to use local grid currencies, PayPal, OMC, or sell through the Kitely Market. PayPal is very expensive, OMC has been having support issues, and local currencies can only be used on their home grids.

(Image courtesy Mobius Grid.)

Mobius Grid went live with Gloebit last June and has been testing is extensively over the past few months. It’s been working well.

“Most of my merchants come from Second Life and like the idea of a universal currency,” grid founder Shawn Corr told Hypergrid Business. “Our shop owners are filling their stalls in our welcome area now, as we just finished our shop renovations.”

Previously, Mobius used the OMC multi-grid currency from Virwox, but that platform has been falling out of favor with OpenSim grids due to support issues and fees.

According to Corr, Gloebit offers several improvements over OMC, including the ability to connect multiple avatars to a single Gloebit wallet and an easier interface.

The grid has already changed its currency symbol to ₲, he added, because the currency is available on the entire grid, with every region supporting it by default.

“I love it,” he said. “Gloebit is easy to set up and use. I tried several currency systems — Podex, OMC — and they had a lot of issues. Gloebit is smooth and when there is an issue Chris [Colosi] is easy to reach about it and quick to fix it.”

With the growth of the hypergrid, Gloebit is the best option for an in-world currency, he said.

(Image courtesy ZanGrid.)

ZanGrid has rolled out the Gloebit currency on two regions, grid co-founder Suzan de Koning-Moennink told Hypergrid Business. Visitors can hypergrid teleport to the main shopping area at hg.zangrid.ch:8002:HyperShopping.

“We managed to get 25 creators to fill shops, to make sure that the moment we go live people would already have the possibility to open an account on Gloebit and buy the products they like and take them home, to their home grid,” she said. “The moment we opened up, we had our first sales on those regions.”

Owners of other regions can also request the currency, she said. The grid also offers the Z$ currency through Podex, but that currency can only be used on ZanGrid.

(Image courtesy ZanGrid.)

Setup was easy, she said, because Zetamex Networks, the grid’s hosting company, handled everything.

One attraction of the Gloebit platform is that customers can teleport in from any other hypergrid-enabled grid and go shopping.

“This saves the merchants a lot of work that goes into maintaining many shops on different grids,” she said.

The way it works is that when visitors arrive for the first time, they get a message asking them if they would like to open a Gloebit account. The link takes them to the website where they can create the account and buy the currency — and can then use it on any Gloebit-enabled grid for that avatar and any other connected avatars.

VirTec, a popular OpenSim vending platform, already support the currency, company owner Virtouse Lilienthal told Hypergrid Business.

“We’re active on ZanGrid when used with the Gloebits OpenSim Money module,” he said. “Also, I am considering alternative ways of integrating with Gloebit as this seems to be an interesting new currency which attempts to solve problems there are currently in the metaverse.”

Christopher Colosi

Several other grids are ready to go live, Gloebit CEO Christopher Colosi told Hypergrid Business, and are just waiting for the cash-out process to be ready.

“We are launching the ability for approved merchants to sell Gloebits this week,” said Colosi. “We have tested the flow with a couple of merchants, but have not approved any yet.  We’ll unhide the request form and start approving merchants when we finish our testing this week.”

Merchants need to provide a name and address and use a matching PayPal account or credit card number, he said.

There will also be some other security checks, said Colosi, who used to run the Second Life Marketplace and the Lindex exchange.

According to Colosi, 20 grids have been testing the Gloebit system, and seven have gone live with the currency.

As of five days ago, before ZanGrid even went live, the Gloebit system has already seen 150 users creating accounts on the platform, and 50 users have bought a total of $450 worth of Gloebits, he said.

“We think that these numbers should be very enticing to grids and merchants to see that there is already activity and money in the system,” he added. “Once we have serious merchants accepting Gloebits, we expect these numbers to rise quickly.”

The growth in exportable content has dramatically outpaced that of non-exportable items. (Kitely data.)

The success of the Kitely Market, which delivers to more than 165 grids, has shown that OpenSim merchants are willing to sell products to users on the hypergrid, with perceived risks of content theft not materializing. Instead, recent examples of content theft involved stolen region export files or copybotted content, which is a separate issue. In fact, the availability of reasonably-priced, easy-to-find content on the Kitely Market is seen by many as a way to decrease piracy. Currently, 71 percent of the nearly 17,000 different items available on the market are exportable to other grids, and the share of exportable items has been rising steadily for the past two years, even as growth in non-exportable listings leveled off.

Kitely has its own currency, Kitely Credits, and company owner Ilan Tochner has said that there are no plans to support the Gloebit currency.

Although Kitely merchants can sell up shops on the Kitely grid and sell there directly, the Kitely Market itself is an online marketplace. Kitely Market merchants who wanted to put stores on other grids would typically put up sale posters that, when clicked, would take customers to the online product listing.

Gloebits will now provide an alternative, with merchants able to make in-world sales to local and hypergrid travelers.

That will help grids gain back some of the sales they’ve previously lost to the Kitely Market.

Plus, said Mobius Grid’s Corr, grids get a share of the Gloebit sales.

“It helps grids that use it to gain revenues the more it’s used for in-world transactions,” he said.

Other hosting companies

At DigiWorldz, Terry Ford is taking a wait-and-see approach before deciding whether to adopt Gloebit on the grid — but he is happy to implement the platform for other grids that his company is hosting.

Terry Ford

“The system we currently use is working great for us,” he said. “I think we’ll stay with what we have until we are certain there are no bugs in the Gloebit functionality. We have far too many users depending on us to start rocking the boat and risking issues with their money.”

Currently, Digiworldz uses the Digitz virtual currency on its grid, with Podex as its currency provider.

“To be fair, Christpher Colosi has contacted me and offered to help with any issues we might have, but I would still feel better once they’ve had some time to test it and work out any issues which may appear,” Ford added.

He would also like to see an option to hook into the Gloebit module to get information about local transactions.

“That would allow us to display transactions info which happen on our grid locally, and would make us feel a bit better,” he said. “With that being said, as you know, we host several other grids and these grids are free to choose their own currency systems which we would be happy to implement if requested.”

Dierk Brunner

Dreamland Metaverse will also set up the Gloebit currency for grids that request it, company CEO Dierk Brunner told Hypergrid Business.

“I think it is an interesting payment solution for OpenSim grids, and I tell them that this money option exists,” he said.

There haven’t been many requests yet, however.

“Most grids we host are used by educational institutions and corporations,” he said. “There are different requirements. Most prefer a local grid currency with no real value, that can be used as play money. Or they are happy with the PayPal Money Module for the seldom cases where they need to do real world money transfers.”

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maria@hypergridbusiness.com'

Maria Korolov

Maria Korolov is editor and publisher of Hypergrid Business. She has been a journalist for more than twenty years and has worked for the Chicago Tribune, Reuters, and Computerworld and has reported from over a dozen countries, including Russia and China. Follow me on Twitter @MariaKorolov.

  • just so no one gets confused. Christopher Colosi is NOT me. He is good chris, im mean chris.

    • Linda Kellie

      Yeah, the different last name gave it away. 😛

    • Da Hayward

      ROFL

  • hack13

    I have personally worked with them over the past year helping iron out features like debit permissions for items inworld, fixing it for whole grids to share one auth token so users don’t have to keep authorizing on the same grid, we even helped iron out the issues with PostgreSQL support.

    Work with Gloebit has been easier then VirWox and their developers have been really easy to work with.

  • Suz Blessed

    ZanGrid startet with OMC’s and due to support issues i felt like i had to search for another option. Glad I could motivate Jacek , the owner of Podex to come to OS to offer currency. We are also still happy with Podex, but glad we also can offer an alternative.
    We are really happy to be able to offer people this other opportunity and give them another choice. Bigger creators like Witchy’s and Dollies have set up at ZanGrid, offering the people in open sim another way to shop. Others ordered a Gloebit enabled region and offer their services to OpenSim on their own regions. With many thanks to Christopher and Zetamex Networks who made this possible. And also a special thank you to all those merchants who have been so patient and had faith in what i call partly ‘My Dream’. .

  • Linda Kellie

    I heard about this the other day and went to ZanGrid. Ended up buying $40 in gloebits so far and I plan on buying more. I shopped till I dropped and then went back and shopped some more. I bought my cool new clothes and furniture and went back to my home on Metropolis. Everything was seamless.

    This gloebits thing isn’t just good for shopping. Imagine being able to use it for tip jars and donations too!

    Christopher Colosi I am now your biggest fan!

    My questions are “Will it be able to be used on grids like Metropolis?” … “Does the grid have to implement it or just the user?” I mean, wouldn’t it be cool to go to a concert on Metropolis or OSGrid and be able to tip the person and buy a tshirt!! So with gloebits I’m hoping that eventually I can live on whatever grid I want and shop on any grid that I want.

    The Kitely Marketplace is great but it has some disadvantages. Like they have rules about how you can post and what your ad looks like. Plus if you want to try on a demo you have to log in your kitely avatar account because the demo gets sent to that avatar. And as with any online marketplace you can’t sit on the furniture and try out the poses. Kitely gives you the virtual version of Amazon or Wayfair but having stores to go into and shop give you the virtual version of brick and mortar shopping. Both are good. Both are needed.

    Not to dramatize this too much but this could just be the one thing that unites all grids finally.

    • hack13

      So to explain how it works, it is not like VirWox which is linked to an Avatar. You have a single Gloebit account, and then you link avatars to that account. So you can have a single Gloebit Account for your Metropolis, ZanGrid, etc avatars as it only creates a link between the two.

      To answer your question about running it on Metroplis, yes you can! It is a region side module, just like OMC however unlike OMC it doesn’t link to the Grid. You have to have someone or yourself who will take responsiblity and create an “Application” that people when coming to your regions/grid authorize to debit through. Meaning the person who runs the currency.

      When we spoke to them about ZetaWorlds adopting this we discussed how home users would join and weather to share our Application Key or make them register their own for self-hosted regions since we cannot gurantee the security.

      This means in the example of ZetaWorlds, we register an official ZetaWorlds Application and all regions we host and customers by through Zetamex be attached to that key. How that then works if someone comes and authorizes ZetaWorlds to debit from their Gloebit account you will not be prompted to do so again. But then when you teleport to say a region hosted by say Bobs Opensim Hosting, then even though you are in ZetaWorlds since that simulator is not hosted by ZetaWorlds it will reprompt you and ask if you want to allow Bobs Opensim Hosting access to debit your account. The same could be said for you for example “Do you want to allow Linda’s Regions to be able to debit your account?” if you are a single person.

      I personally like htis method because it lets the user’s know who the responsible party is for the region you are on, and keeps buyer beware in your hands. I hope this clears things up!

      • Linda Kellie

        I think it helped. So basically though Metropolis would have to sign up for it first and if they did then I could put in an application with gloebits to have it on my region (If my region were hosted by metropolis and not on my own server)?

        • hack13

          Whomever hosts the simulator has to put in the application. If you use Metropolis hosting you could ask them to install the module and register an account or you could register one yourself and have them put in your key.

          • so if i got a server pak from terry ford i can hook up gloebits on my own digiworldz regions but the rest of the grid wont be able to use it?
            Just saying Terry so that others can better understand how all this globits works

          • hack13

            Yes you could, the rest of the grid could use it! Instead of Grid level separation like VirWox OMC uses, they do “Application” I know bad name choice think of it as Responsible Party.

            Every region has too be authorized through an Responsible Party. This can be a whole grid if the owners want it that way or just a handful of regions. So Metropolis for example, I can make a Zetamex Application and all regions i host on Zetamex will use that Application to authorize users to buy on those regions. Then say DigiWorldz regions on Metropolis register through a DigitWorldz Application.

            Basically there is no “grids” with this module just Applications, thus why it can be used on multiple avatars doesn’t matter the grid.

            Again I will write out a large blog explaining with info graphics tonight.

          • “all regions i host on Zetamex” so you do still own zetamex.

          • hack13

            No, but I do work there. I am contractor, who just gets paid to work for Vincent Sylvester.

          • oh good less stress for you

          • hack13

            To be honest, it really is. I love getting to say, you gotta talk to Vincent

        • yea im abit confused at tim’s explanation myself

          • hack13

            I will write up a better explination on my blog and proof it in the morning. Then add some graphs to explain it visually as well.

  • Carlos Loff

    I wonder why Firestorm or Singularity just do not offer an option to automatically setup Paypal transactions, either on purchases or money between avatars and even land access passes ? It would be all so simple for small entrepreneurs usin OS – There could even be an option, at grid setup level, where owners could allow or not the Paypal usage for the viewers and setup an 1% to 5% charge, as ling the users were informed – Im not talking mandatory, just as one more option in viewer integration

    • Because all such transactions happen server side. The viewer just connects to a money transaction module on the server. So the grid must have support for the currency system you want to use.

      In addition Singularity development has almost stopped, so don’t expect much from them.

      • Carlos Loff

        So cant the viewer connect to Paypal Server Module and lets rockkk ???

        • As far as I know there is only on half-assed PayPal server module that may or may not work properly. A grid can only have one currency module loaded on the server.

          As you know there are PayPal vendors you can use that talks directly to PayPal, but these are in-world scripted objects that has nothing to do with the viewer.

          • Justin Time

            You are quite right XMIR, a “Grid” can only have one money module loaded, however the choice any “Grid” owner has made, is not set in stone.
            Should Gloebit” currency become universal, then the benefits would be that the currency could be used for land purchases along with object purchases, tipping, favors,or anything without restrictions to grid (local currency). Again the Gloebit would have to be the “Grid” currency, not a region only currency.

            Since only a handful of grids ( in comparison to all monetized grids) use Podex, the adaptation of Globeitz as a universal currency is not likely in the near future if we use Podex as the reference, The only way for a true world market to work inworld is when “All Grids” share the same currency, AND (big and) all are connected through a universal link such as Hypergrid. That is how SL Market Place works and how Linden Exchange works. If you are not in the world cluster you are on your own. And that has been the key difference between the economies. If every grid uses the same currency, no matter what it is, Linden if you want… they can all trade evenly, that is the fact.

            I seriously doubt 100% participation between all monetized grids as much as I would love to see that.

  • Linda Kellie

    So… the Digiworldz blurb up there just caught my eye. Why are they waiting? Do they not know they can have both? Do they not understand that I want to go there and shop NOW? 🙂
    Or am I wrong and they can’t have both? If I read it right ZanGrid does Podex and Gloebits. Maybe just that one region is set up for Gloebits?

    I’m so confused. lol

    I have to say that setting up the gloebits account for me was much easier than the Podex. And If I am correct I think that the % that gloebits takes for the transactions is less than what Podex takes.

    Please anyone, feel free to correct me if I am wrong about anything I stated here or if you have answers to any of my questions.

    • Da Hayward

      I think Terry is just waiting to see how it turns out Linda, in the future he may indeed offer both.
      It seems Gloebits may be a very good system, I don’t know. But is great to see so many options coming into Open Sim

      • Linda Kellie

        I don’t know why he can’t just take my word for it. Geeeze. LOL

        • Da Hayward

          smiles. do I say “aha” or “yes dear” now
          Gives linda big thumbs up

          • Linda Kellie

            “Yes Dear” works for me! Can’t hear that enough.

    • VirTec

      In each region you cannot have both. Either Gloebits or the local currency but not both. However I am investigating to implement to use both in my vendors but that might take a while

      • Ooh, that would be so cool.

        • hack13

          Well the API is something you can tie into. Also with local transaction on your site, I am sure they can help with that their API is already pretty extensive.

      • Linda Kellie

        I have total and complete faith in you! 🙂

    • Jessica Random

      I don’t know but I think there may be another problem not being talked about for grids such as Digiworldz that use Podex. Only local avatars can purchase items using local currency so it stops people coming in from the hypergrid and taking stuff back to their home grid and changing permissions. It may well be that moving to a currency that enables that to happen a grid may need to make sure their merchants are aware of this change and give them chance to leave if they are not happy with it. It is certainly possible some merchants would not want to stay if this change happened. I am not convinced that this would actually make their content more at risk – but it is certainly a perceived risk however real.

  • “Previously, OpenSim merchants had to use local grid currencies, PayPal, OMC, or sell through the Kitely Market. PayPal is very expensive, OMC has been having support issues, and local currencies can only be used on their home grids.” umm you forgot Podex which is used by over a dozen grids including the Great Canadian Grid and works just fine. I refuse to buy yet another currency just to play a game. My conclusion – avoid the grids that adopt Gloebits (thanks for the list).

    • I consider Podex to be one of the local currency options. If you have an avatar on two different grids that both use Podex, you have to buy those two currencies separately.

      But you’re right in that several grids that use Podex like the way it works, and are holding off on adopting Gloebit, or will be maintaining both options for a while.

      But given the choice of going shopping on a foreign grid that has just a local currency or going shopping on a Gloebit grid, I’ll take the Gloebit option every time. Buying a local currency isn’t just a pain on its own, but it often requires creating an avatar on that grid. So Gloebits look like they might be a good choice for a grid that wants to attract hypergrid shoppers to some or all of its regions. And it also seems to be a good choice for a new grid, or an existing grid that hasn’t had a currency before.

      • In my book a “local currency” is one in a closed loop system like Tangle grid was using while I was there, a currency that does not have a commonality from grid to grid through a central “bank”. I, myself, would choose Paypal in the case of “foreign grids” then as it is a well established proven financial tool.

        How do they offer both options? The viewer only gives one option as far as I know. In the case of GCG it’s MC$ which is Podex. If you want to use Paypal it’s done through scripts not the viewer platform.

        • Exactly. If you buy a Podex currency on, say, Great Canadian Grid or DigiWorldz, you can’t teleport to another grid and spend that currency. (Podex does, however, allow you to exchange it for other currencies.)

          The way that some grids have both options — ZanGrid, for example — is that they leave it up to the region owners. So some region owners can opt for Gloebit, and others can opt for ZanGrid’s local, Podex-run Z$ currency.

          It’s not an option in the sense that the user decides or the individual merchant decides, except by going to other regions.

          Over time, I think people will vote with their wallets, and merchants and region owners will shift to using whatever is most popular.

          • Suz Blessed

            I agree Maria:) We offer what the Zancitizen asks for. It is up to them. And it is up to the visitors if they like to create a Gloebit account or not.

          • Jessica Random

            Thing is with Podex, if I am on Metropolis grid (which is currently the case), I can’t go to say Digiworldz or GCG and buy stuff and take it home with me. I can’t go – setup a podex account for that avatar from a foreign grid – and then spend that currency when I hypergrid to Digiworldz and then take that content home with me (please – someone correct me if I am wrong – but I believe this is the case). Even if I could – I would have to fun podex at several grids to shop in multiple places. Yes, I can transfer money from local currency to podex and back to local corrency in another grid. This isnt always instant and there is always a fee to do so. So when I transfer money from Digi back to Podex and then from there back to GCG I have paid a fee for this and I am left with a lower value.

            With Gloebits, I can go from Metropolis to Zangrid – or another grid with this currency. I can do this with any avatar I have linked to my account – and they will share their balance. I can buy from any of these grids and take my stuff home with me back to Metropolis.

            This in my opinion is the biggest advantage of Gloebits (Why is it I keep mistyping this as Gluebits or Gloebutts?). The system does have its drawbacks however but they are on the merchants side.

      • Gunnar Schwede

        Podex, that’s funny, you don’t want to know the German meaning for that word.. 🙂

  • only way ill use gloebits is if someone is selling train stuff. Choo choo all the way moth(bleeped so i dont get banned again)

  • oopsee

    As I read these articles about Commercialism in Opensim they are written in such a way as to seem to represent a majority opinion of Opensim residents wanting Commercial products. I notice that there are only about 8 or 9 people commenting in favor. This is certainly not a majority.
    For those few promoting currency and commercial products I have one thing to say … there is already a grid set up for it called SECONDLIFE. Go there and stay out of opensim. Stop trying to make opensim a restricted crappy clone of Secondlife.
    As for stolen content ask yourself are all the textures being used on your commercial products used with permission from the texture creators? I doubt it. I also notice that most of the for sale content are actually secondlife templates with textures slapped on them. So these same people deriding stolen content are in fact also stealing textures and selling without full permission from the texture creators.
    I make content for opensim free and full permissions like many others in opensim. I notice that the content I have created being used in many opensim commercial grids without my permission. They have changed the permissions I have set from full perm to no copy, no modification and no transfer. I see many commercial opensim grids roaming and taking free content from other “free opensim grids” to make their regions nice and changing the perms to no copy, no mod and no transfer. Now these same folks are crying when their content permissions have been changed.
    Keep opensim free and full permissions. Want to sell, make money and restrict content go to SECONDLIFE !!

    • Jessica Random

      “I also notice that most of the for sale content are actually secondlife templates with textures slapped on them. So these same people deriding stolen content are in fact also stealing textures and selling without full permission from the texture creators. ” – No actually. There are third party organisations that sell “blanks” to both SL users and other users. People in SL buy these for their creations, and so do people in OS. I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that because people are buying blanks and “slapping” textures on are stealing textures. Sure there is always that possibility – just like there is for those making items in SL – but to assume because they are buying blanks they must be stealing textures is a Sunday drive into strangeland.

      I totally get that you would prefer OS to stay with limited content and everyone to be “self sufficient” and make all their own items, or at least only have creators in OS that give their work for free. There is nothing wrong with that wish. However this just is not how it works. People want to get better stuff, merchants provide this stuff. You dont have to buy any of it – you don’t have to buy any.

      Telling people to go to SL if they want to make money etc doesn’t work. A large amount of people in OS are here because of the high costs of doing anything in SL. $2000 (os so) a year for a single 256×256 region etc. This fact alone has brought many people into OS. They aren’t here because no one sells things, they are here because they can run their own regions and have a 16 normal region varregion for a fraction of the cost of one region in SL. I realise people have moved from SL to OS for other reasons as well but this is a bit one.

      In many cases those actively working on development of OS, or those running grids that are bringing people into OS are those very people who moved from SL because of the very high costs.

      It isn’t going to happen anyway but having those people leave OS would be shooting yourself in the foot – sorry but its just true.

      • oopsee

        Yes, you wrote “Sure there is always that possibility” and that is my point your making again for me. Stolen textures are often overlooked by people who whine about stolen content. Just saying.
        I did not assume anything or accuse anyone in particular. It happens.
        The rest of your comment is not worth responding to.
        Opensim is doing fine without currency or commercial content.
        If the majority of people in Opensim wanted commercial junk then it would have happened long ago.
        You would see more comments by opensim residents in these posts asking for more. Don’t see that do you? Why, because the majority of people in Opensim are very content without commercialism.
        The only posts here are from commercialism cheerleaders and frankly they are only a very few most of whom have vested interests.
        To say I don’t have to buy or participate is being naive. I am affected by advertising spam all over G+ communities and other sites by commercial grids and persons promoting their junk for sale.
        The smokescreen of “oh we are making opensim better with better content” is a ruse for “I want to make money and opensim is virgin territory without all the competition of secondlife”. The fact is the attraction of making money (greed) is what draws commercial interests to opensim and no other reason.
        I am not worried at all. My feeling is that these empty commercial grids are a dead man walking. Sure one might sell a few trinkets but eventually the reality of competing with quality free content spread out all over the metaverse will win out.
        KEEP OPENSIM FREE AND FULL PERMS now that is a winning trend hahahahaha.

        • Gunnar Schwede

          “Why, because the majority of people in Opensim are very content without commercialism.” I must have missed that survey, or is it just your opinion? Ahhh, that’s it, well, you are welcome to have one..

          • I don’t want to bear the brunt of your sarcasm, truly, but she is right in saying, “Why, because the majority of people in Opensim are very content without commercialism.”

            and your response
            “I must have missed that survey, or is it just your opinion? Ahhh, that’s it, well, you are welcome to have one..”

            If you review just one place for statistics. Magnuz keeps this one going http://binders.world/gridstats/now.html where right at this moment you can see that the two largest grids in Opensim are OSGrid and Metropolis, 4157.52 and 3842.03 actives for the latter.

            If you are aware enough of which some more non commercial (and non currency) and which are commercial, then you can gain for yourself more factual knowledge.

            But I don’t think oopsee meant for a size discussion, just stateng a fact and one that is easily researched.

            And most of us non-commercialism people (many ex SL and many more who still use both, to each their own benefits) had no issues with that and like it.

            This is by no means meant to seem anti-commercialistic, at least from me, but facts are our friends.

            Regards

          • I could always do a survey…

            Do you:

            1. Prefer OpenSim to be completely non-commercial with creators donating content, and grids run on donations
            2. Love the shopping, land rentals, and other commercial activity
            3. Like the option of having both

            Also, saying that someone has an avatar on OSgrid means that they’re opposed to commercial activity is like saying that just because someone visits Wikipedia they never buy stuff online. For example, I buy a ton of stuff on the Kitely Market for my OSgrid avatar, and if I were to have a region on OSgrid, I’d probably get it from a third-party provider like Oliveira or Dreamland instead of running it myself on my own computer, which is a huge pain.

          • The question is, though, does anyone care? Knowing what percentage of OpenSim users like the commercial stuff or don’t like it probably won’t make a single bit of difference to anyone. Will Linda Kellie make less stuff knowing that some people like to buy things? (God, I hope not!) Will Pacifica Fashion stop selling stuff knowing that some people like getting Linda Kellie freebies? (They better not!)

            And will individual users change their minds knowing what other people think? Given that the attitude towards “commercialism” is probably more like a political or a religious belief than anything else, probably not.

            Also, doing a survey is a lot of work. And sending out the VR viewers actually costs more money for the shipping than it would have if I just bought people new viewers on Amazon. (Especially when I have to mail the viewers all around the world.) And I’m lazy. And I’ve got a lot of TV to catch up on.

          • It was @gunnarschwede:disqus who wondered about some survey he didn’t see as part of his attempt at humorous sarcasm. I don’t know who he is anyway. I just thought it needed answering.

            But “And most of us non-commercialism people (many ex SL and many more who still use both, to each their own benefits) had no issues with that and like it.” this is why I added that. I well know there are people who use a variety of what OpenSim offers. It’s the disinformation about it all that annoys me in some small regard.

            Either gunner knows this or he was just passing on what he heard or experienced personally, I don’t know…but I thought that regardless it is always good to pass out facts when one can and feels like doing so.

            I wouldn’t think such a survey would be useful at all.

            People tend to know what it is that they are a part of, some groups may very well have no real knowledge of what the hypergrid and the “free meta” are all about, it is to foreign to them, and typically ends up with problems of one sort or another. Some others think it is just where some great free and full perm content is, but that belies the reality of it completely.

            I have run into hypergrid enabled commercial grid people who just go from one commercial grid to another hypergating…they are intrinsically unaware of what we do.

            They have no problems using Aine’s wonderful free content and I see her NPC coded danceball every time I attend one of their functions. I wonder if any of those people even thank her.

            I am the first to not want to add to your free workload, I think you are to valuable @mariakorolov:disqus

          • John Simmons

            Linda Kellie has made a LOT of good stuff free, for which we are all grateful. But Linda also makes high quality stuff for sale. I happily paid for, and am wearing her virtual boots as we speak!

          • Talla Adam

            Any survey like that would just be playing the anti-commercial clique’s divisive game and deter people with an open mind coming to Opensim. We need to get off the politics and leave people do what they want to do. That’s what makes Hypergrid such a great concept.

          • oopsee

            Hi ya Gunner, hehee got your guns out eh ;)) – no sorry no “survey says”. I assumed this as are many more seasoned grids without commercial and currency than with. Many of these grids are in the “top ten” of land area and people. So based on that I kinda figured.
            Yup, it’s my opinion and thanks for your permission lol … very kind.

          • Arielle

            Opensim is not a grid though. It is a piece of software on which potentially thousands of different grids of various configurations are run. Many of them are not large enough or have owners who are technical enough to configure for an actual economy so those grids that have economies that allow exports from a marketplace, can fill that gap for the residents of a no economy grid.Trying to use those grids as an example of how many in the opensim community are not interested in commercialism is a no go because it is pure conjecture of how many residents of the no economy grids have never bought from or ever intend to, the Kitely marketplace or any of the new and planned commercial stores starting to appear on the hypergrid.

          • oopsee

            sorry i disagree in total with what you say … and what you say is pure conjecture as well ..
            Who is correct here really does not matter as FREE quality content is pervasive in opensim grids and continues to grow at an amazing rate … this makes commercial grids and economy in opensim grids basically a joke … again my opinion
            People are not stupid, they travel around Opensim grids and see the plethora of free “quality” content available and in the end their activity will determine the demise or successful future of commercialism in opensim
            I think Free will win out. My opinion and we will see won’t we

            Don’t buy in Opensim – Keep it Free and Full Perms

          • Talla Adam

            lol, OMG, and how much of that free stuff is the same everywhere? Many people just go trawling for free content to give away on their own grid to fill stores out and very little of it is wanted by visitors. It is everywhere! But commercial content is only where it can be afforded so naturally it is the better stuff. Not saying all free content is bad but when everyone has the same stuff then too many grids just look the same and become boring just to look at even.

            I like to see grids that contain both content the owner buys and content the owner gets for free if it is put together with imagination. And good on them if content they make themselves and choose not to share or sell makes their build look better, different and unique.

            Do what you like in Opensim – Make Free, make For Sale & give it the license you choose. Above all, forget the politics and have fun!

          • John Simmons

            The point of FREEDOM in Opensim is that we don’t need a gestapo to enforce one person’s vision of how things should be. There is no reason not to have BOTH Free and Full Perms stuff AND quality items for which the person supplying the labor is paid. I offer a lot of free stuff, but I also sell some things on Kitely Market. Even in the Open Source Software world, it is not just about one license. There is stuff that is free as in beer, and stuff that is free but with commercial licenses. Some stuff is free for a version that doesn’t require a lot of work, with a commercial version that does. It all works symbiotically.

            Oh, and I am hiring people to do a very complex mesh project. It will be full perm and open source. It will require about 100 hours of work. I can’t pay you anything. Will you take the job?

          • Han Held

            There are more people jumping all over Oopsee and her opinion than the reverse. The gestapo accusation (which really is unwarranted, if you take a deep breath, step back and think about it) is completely overblown and unwarranted.

            Go through this comment section of this article; count how many people are arguing for Oopsee’s argument, then go and count how many people are arguing against her.

            It’s clear to see what the majority opinion is -look at the numbers.

            I’m going to throw this out here; Oopsee is being over the top; far, far over the top. because she HAS to be to be heard; otherwise the majority opinion will ride roughshod and her points will be lost, unread and unconsidered.

            I know this from personal experience.

          • John Simmons

            Hi Han, I made a very long reply, but it seems to have disappeared and I don’t have the energy to do it all again. In a nutshell, I don’t have any issues with Oopsee’s desire to not see the available supply of free stuff diminish, nor her fear of too much commercialization. But absent the Linden Lab monopoly, I don’t think that is a realistic fear. What I take issue with is her insistence that EVERYTHING has to be free and full perm, which is tantamount to insisting that Artists be slaves and theft be legal. Butch already made a better case, so I won’t repeat his excellent points.

            I am sorry that you are leaving Opensim. Have you passed the baton to someone to work on Avatar World for next year?

        • I believe OpenSim’s days are numbered due to people who think like you.
          The more this community fills up with individuals who expect everything for free, the slower the wheels of development turn and the bigger the split is.

          The reasons are simple.. look at the OpenSim Mantis page.. what a mess!
          There are things being reported there which haven’t been solved in a very long time.
          Many of these complaints are by users who can at times be quite rude about a missing feature, or something which isn’t working as they think it should.
          Many of the past developers have left, many of those who remain seem to be slowly losing interest.

          There are many people who don’t like the 9.x code, there are many who don’t like the 8.x code, and the community seems to be splitting, not only from a development perspective, but also from a user perspective where you have people waiving the “OPENSIM SHOULD REMAIN FREE” banner while at the same time complaining about how bad this viewer is or how bad this bug is, etc…
          These users simply consume all OpenSim and it’s community has to offer, complain about what’s missing, and never actively contribute much back.
          Thankfully, not all are like this, but their numbers seem to be increasing over the years.

          I’ve been around this community since 2007, I’ve seen many very good people with lots of dreams come and go.
          It is my opinion this community lacks direction, lacks developers, lacks focus, and lacks recruitment.
          I’ve attempted several times to assist in organizing parts of the community. I’ve helped with fund raising, I’ve helped with code, I’ve helped with knowledge and advice, I’ve helped with money, I’ve done all I can and continue to do all I can to help protect content, and I can honestly say that as a long term member of this community I am concerned about the overall “Health” of the OpenSim project and associated community.

          Viewer devs don’t get along with OpenSim devs, grid owners don’t along with other grid owners, the community has many “Leeches” who take all they can, never give back, and complain whenever someone mentions the need to charge real money for something. The core development team has shrunken considerably, the number of code commits has fallen, and the “Profits” (Not a dirty word) have fallen for many grid owners.

          When it no longer makes good business sense for content creators to invest in new software, new computers, better video cards, more storage, more time creating content they will stop.
          When it no longer makes good business sense for a grid owner to rent servers, maintain the platform for other users to enjoy, they too will leave.
          When the developers finally get fed up with donating their time and only hearing complaints, they too will leave.

          What this project will be left with is many “Standalones”, “Mini Grids”, etc. which will perform poorly due to the network stability, hardware quality, and overall stability with free content which everyone makes themselves, or gets from their friends.
          When the users who expect more and are willing to pay for it start having trouble finding what they want, they too will leave.
          In the end, OpenSim as we now know it will be but a memory.

          Look around, the signs are everywhere..
          Sure the monthly stats show OpenSim is growing.. while this might be true to some extent, what these stats do not reflect is the many alts created by users, or the same users on 200 different grids, or the bots being created and experimented with, etc.
          Whenever a new grid opens with low priced land, everyone flocks to them until the prices increase.. then sales slow down, or stop.
          When the grid owner finds out they’ve sold the land too cheap.. and performance starts to suffer, users will leave for the next low priced “New Kid on the block”
          I would suggest we as a community aren’t getting as many new members as the stats are leading us to believe. Instead, we are seeing new grids open, and people moving to these new grids and creating accounts there which are then added to the previous sum.. we keep adding many of these users over and over again each time they move to a new grid.
          Viewer development has slowed, OpenSim development has slowed, profits are dropping, etc.

          This community needs organizing, and organizing means finding people who are willing to dream of an OpenSim of the future and define a path for this project and our community to get there. It will require current developers to follow this path, or finding new ones who will, it will require viewer developers following this path or finding new ones who will, it will require money to pay for some of the things we as a community might need, it will require leadership, it will require lots of things which are not yet and never have been in place.

          Bash the commercial stuff all you want, but without being able to turn a profit, things will grind to a halt.
          I’d like to hear comments from all of the grid owners.. “FREE” and “Commercial”.. if suddenly there was no money coming in.. would you pay for your servers out of your own pocket so everyone can keep enjoying their virtual lives?
          I won’t.. I don’t have the resources to do that.

          I’d also like to hear from the users who willingly pay or donate regularly to any grid or other service so they can obtain the level of stability and performance they have come to expect.. if that were to go away, would you still remain in OpenSim?

          Let’s hear from the content creators.. if suddenly you were faced with no buyers.. how many of you would still invest your time and money into making things?

          Let’s hear from entertainers.. if you had very few people attending your events and tipping.. or no grids willing to pay you to come and entertain.. how long would you stick around?

          Sure, there was a time in the early days when there were only a handful of grids and some were commercial while others not, and we had very few users, and development was steaming ahead at record paces because we had many developers who were interested in building a future for OpenSim.. but that was the past.. where are we going now? Does anyone know?

          Which features are being worked on right now? How far along are we on each?
          Which bugs are being worked on right now? What do we need to fix them? Do we have what we need?
          Which new viewer developments are being worked on right now? Why? Why not?

          I think we are all on a big “Party Bus” with no destination in mind, no driver, no map and nobody wants to pay for gas.. or tires, or maintenance, or repairs…. my fears are we will all be stuck along the road somewhere when the gas runs out.. and to be honest, I’m not looking forward to that kind of party.

          • Da Hayward

            Hi Butch, replying as a user, I do agree that Open Sim in general does seem to lack an organised sense of direction, but for us we have a great grid hosting us and intend to do the distance with them and stay on open sim. There will always be some free content but there is also room for merchants and commercial content. I do know that most of us at Kea do not mind paying for good service and good creations.
            You are right in saying it cost’s to do this and I for one don’t mind paying that cost.

          • Thanks for your support DA.. we certainly appreciate you and others like you and will continue to work hard to maintain a great platform on which you and others can enjoy for a long time.

          • oopsee

            well butch, privatize all opensim … create a dictatorship like linden labs to run it .. take away the privileges like god powers and downloading oars, iar’s with the excuse of protecting content and by all means institute an upload fee to provide a slush fund for whatever breaks or needs improvement. Wow, you might want to charge a log in fee or a sign up fee or oh well I’m sure a creative mind can think of all kinds of ways to charge money while at the sometime defending themselves with “I am making it all better just for you my little sheeple”. Why reinvent the wheel butch? Just run back to secondlife.
            Sorry I am ruining opensim development with my opinions of keeping the metaverse free of the above mentioned. Not.
            Keep it FREE and full perms … that wins :)))

          • Da Hayward

            That’s being pretty mean oopsie, for what Butch provides his residents his pricing is very reasonable.
            Doesn’t charge upload fee’s or membership fee’s. but it does cost him to provide the servers and support so shouldn’t he try and recover some of that expense? Butch is nothing like the Lindens and its pretty unfair to say so.

          • Thanks DA.

          • oopsee

            good for butch and his generosity but that is not the topic here and I am sure does not need cheerleaders to defend his good honor.
            his point that myself “and others like me” retard opensim software development is ludicrous and erroneous. That opensim needs commercial vendors to move forward is also not true.
            That is the discussion at hand.

          • Talla Adam

            The discussion here should be in reply to the article above but you chose to hijack the conversation to rant about your personal dislike of commercialism. That is a view you are entitled to but insulting the whole community with unsubstantiated accusations of theft and telling us all that everything should be free or go back to Second Life is just an out an right attempt at smear and dictatorship. Yes, I say dictatorship because you are part of a small clique that have never missed an opportunity to insult, deride and put down people that try to make any money out of THEIR own grid and THEIR hard work – which you lot don’t pay for! Free is good but if people are willing to pay for better, or stuff that’s not found everywhere, then that is the right of everyone in a free society.

            People come to Opensim for more reasons than lower cost and free content. Many, most even, come for the sheer freedom that Opensim offers them, and, for many the chance to open a little business renting land or selling things they make. Yes, there are templates out there for clothing and such including sculpties and mesh. There are also very many web sites offering both free and paid textures. It is a whole industry on which the Opensim community benefits. But NO ONE has the right to tell others how they can use Opensim. It is free to use or modify however one chooses and no one has the right to dictate otherwise.

            I pay for my server, not you, and I am happy and grateful to Kitely market, Zangrid and others that have provided me with a venue to spend my money and buy the things I want. I’m glad Podex,Globit and others offer currency services to the whole Hypergrid of worlds. You DO NOT own Opensim and I resent being told to go back to Second Life, which, insistently I have never left anyway and there are plenty others like me who enjoy Opensim for what it is and the freedom it gives me. You are just insulting the community because you don’t like the commercial aspect but you have a choice too. Stick with your like-minded friends in a few standalones and just share and share alike. Open your own G+ community and ban any kind of product topic. Make your Opensim a little niches where you spend your time in a bubble of discontent with the world and feed off each others divisive views.

            The rest of us want better things and a brighter Opensim/Hypergrid where the community helps each other, trades, shares and dose all the things that brings the community together. I know which community I prefer.

          • oopsee

            Oh, well it is my opinion and if you disagree that is just dandy.
            I don’t want to see the opensim metaverse turned into a crummy clone of secondlife grids. So people like yourself who want to bring the worst of secondlife to opensim I do say go back.
            I don’t think I have much to worry about though as the FREE QUALITY CONTENT that is flowing into the majority FREE GRIDS throughout the opensim metaverse makes the opensim commercial grid secondlife wannabe’s a failing business venture.
            I do have the right to tell others to go back to secondlife to make a buck and will continue to do so. That is a grid set up for exactly what they are interested in, commercial content sales?
            I have a huge FREE store in many FREE grids and some commercial ones at their request. These are packed with HIGH QUALITY content and have many visitors from commercial grids who are filling up their inventories with free quality content as good or better than what is for sale in these minority commercial content grids. The comments I get from them are “thank you so much, wow this is better than what is for sale, etc”. Go figure.
            Your post is full of vitriol and venom that does nothing to further any good discussion of the merits of the very small commercial opensim community because there are none. What you and others here give as reasons why commercial grids and economy are good for the opensim metaverse are not reasons but excuses for wanting to profit. Go back to secondlife and stay.
            The opensim metaverse is made up of over 300 grids and over 70,000 regions. Count the number of commercial grids and “ohhhhh right” you and yours are the tiny tiny minority and niche. What you say is totally erroneous and false regards who is the majority. It is you and your tiny group of people wanting to dictate to the majority that we need an economy filled with junk for sale. We don’t. So I would say stay in “your little bubble” hahahaha. Commercial content is not better than FREE content it just costs money and that is the only difference.

            I won’t respond to any more of your inane posts or read them as they only serve to vilify me personally for my opinions or how I express them rather than pose any kind of debate that might change my opinion or others who agree with me – so feel free to have the last word.

            KEEP OPENSIM FREE AND FULL PERMS

          • Talla Adam

            I see your response only proves you don’t have a rational argument only insults to commercial users and blowing your own trumpet like you own Opensim and everything you make is perfect. Well, I wont knock what you make and give away. Work as hard as you like on it and do it for free. I’m fine with that but I will still buy content that is for sale if I like it. You can’t change that and sorry to disappoint you wont drive me or anyone back to Second Life. I am happy to be in both SL and OS that is how it will stay even though we have to put up with people like you.

            But since you are kind enough to offer me the last word, which you say you wont read, then here it is; Didn’t I buy some of your neon light boards a few years back from Kitely Market?

            Oh, of course, you have withdrawn them since you saw the light and now, like a smoker who kicked the habit, you demand everyone follow your lead.

            KEEP OPENSIM FREE TO USE AND DO WITH IT WHAT YOU WILL. YOU’RE SPENDING YOUR MONEY AND NO SELF APPOINTED RULER OF THE METAVERSE CAN TELL YOU WHAT TO DO. APART FROM THAT HAVE FUN AND BE HAPPY!

          • just like Oopsee had a store with items for sale in Zetaworldz when Tim and I first started that grid.

          • I was going to say something here but got bored lol

          • Da Hayward

            yeah we need new article. he he

          • lol, ha, we sure do… this one has been beaten to death…several times-)

          • Han Held
          • Da Hayward

            Hi oopsie,you are entitled to your opinion, so is he. The subject at hand is the Gloebit system, not if commercialism is destroying open sim. So don’t tell me about the subject at hand and you should be embracing more options for users instead of running it down, that is if you do truly care about open sim.There was no need for you to attack Butch that was just pure drama.

          • we aint defending him. its the truth. your the one not caring about others. DEVELOPERS AND CONTENT CREATORS GOTTA EAT TOO. Grow up oopsee

          • I think some people are being mean to you way out of proportion to the comments you have said….but I know better anyways, and like ya-))))

          • Da Hayward

            Hi Minetheree, not being mean to oopsie. She seems to be a very intelligent individual and is entitled to her opinion.
            She is probably a very nice person in rl.
            We can all expect when we comment in these threads to maybe ruffle someones feathers, just the way the world is.
            I will venture though that with the passion in these comments it would seem Open Sim is onto a really good thing.
            People do really care about it, which has to be a good thing.
            Thumbs up!

          • heya da…I’m not really sure if oopsee is a man or woman or something else lol and she doesn’t need me to chime in…I think passion is great…with all the negatively around and some people enjoying it immensely, if nothing positive is left but passion, I would be satisfied-)

          • Da Hayward

            oops! I’ll change she to person, sorry if i got it wrong oopsee.
            yes Minetheree without passion there is nothing. Positive or negative is always which way one perceives it.
            Fixed.

          • oopsee

            I think under all that acid is “ruh oh … what if I’m right”. Puts a little doubt into merrily sliding down the slippery slope.
            No worries, I am confident about who I am and my opinions so a little derision is just that.
            Truth is Miny we will see a lack of interest in globits and content sales and ultimately their demise or not. My opinions are moot to that as I don’t have a crystal ball.
            It is the article itself and many others similar in tone on this site to actively promote a certain agenda while not giving the flip side coverage that irks me. So I just had to post some kind of statement to its contrary. At least it dampens the echo effect here hahahaha.
            KEEP IT FREE AND FULL PERMS

          • I would suggest you or some others or you and some others could get together and write an article for Maria to post here. I agree that reporting is a bit more about commercial stuff, but then Leighton put up his really good article on free content a few days ago.

            In any case, her rules for posting aren’t all that difficult to follow and she will help as best she can. She has with me-)

            To me I would hope for some kind of middle road where one set of ideals can be done without infringing on another set of ideals…but as I commented here, Core with Melanie running it may leave all this as moot anyway, and we will know in not to long of a time, as time goes.

          • Talla Adam

            You hope for some kind of middle road where both sets of ideals prevail is what most us want I think, and I certainly do. But. honestly, isn’t that how it is now anyway?

            That oopsee person wants one set of ideals, the commercial ones, thrown out and with them any people that hold to those views. They are insulted and called thieves with no evidence. They are put down as bad content creators compared with those who make stuff for free. And, moreover, no one is allowed to make a profit to cover their costs and enjoy maybe some small reward for their hard work.

            Oopsee’s view might be shared by a few people who, I might add, have been quite blatant in calling for a boycott of Kitely market in the past even though oopsee has had a commercial store there but it is not how everyone feels. Opensim as a community is not actually a democracy and nor is it a dictatorship. No one has any right to tell others how they conduct their grid activity or tell them to get out if they don’t like the way oopsee wants Opensim to be. There are plenty of free content makers like Linda Kellie who has made it clear enough she likes the way Gloebits works and is happy to buy content from others.

            There is room in this community for both points of view and even Core Melanie wont be able to change that. If we don’t like the way the software is going there are, indeed, other forks.

          • Well, yes Talla, there is room and it is now also. There are only a few class of lowlifes people I find some equally lowlife (huh?) fun with sometimes, but I think we should all keep in mind otherwise that we are basically on the same team, and these continual (more lately it seems) picayune nit picking discussions are very divisive, and some want to speak up about their own views.

            I don’t really see much reason to engage in all this until we see what Melanie and Ubit churn out for us.

            I know there are those against Kitely, but most if not all of those have negative ulterior motives, I discount anything they say personally because it’s just ridiculous. There are some malcontents in that who will do and say most anything against Kitely and it’s Market.

            It doesn’t really matter.

            oopsee had a similar epiphany to my own, she did the Kitely market but keep looking around at other things, and opened her eyes to, her personally, deciding to give away her content and move to the free meta. Many others have done the same.

            My own evolving was from selling terrains, and doing all the necessary marketing going to one little commercial grid and logging into another, it just got completely boring and when I found people sharing so much better stuff than my measly terrains I went progressively towards free(dom)…it works for me.

            But most of all I think there are much larger issues people should focus on that are being ignored…I think because it is the easier path for them to deal with the small stuff.

            I don’t think there is any point in anyone dissing anyone else who are connected via the hypergrid and some of it is started by various pieces of propaganda by only a few insane people.

            Calming down may be needed here-)

          • 1derworld

            This is one of the times I really agree with you ha 🙂

          • omg!! (let me go change it now!!!!!!) but of course we do agree on some things Joe, we have many of the same friends-)

          • Han Held

            Hear, hear …to both!

          • noxluna

            With
            all due respect oopsee, you do not know anything of Terry (your ignorance in
            this area is rather blatantly obvious).
            Nor do you know anything of his grid (again your ignorance is blatantly
            obvious). If you did know anything you
            would know that Terry ‘s grid is one of the very few that doesn’t charge for:
            uploads, oar uploads, region moves, classifieds AND has free housing for new
            people. Unlike LL, DigiWorldz customer
            service is highly regarded, as his Terry himself. Terry has donated to the opensim community by
            way of coding, improvements, time, advice.
            He shares his knowledge freely with all who ask. He doesn’t insist that commercial grids are
            the ONLY way…. Opensim is supposed to be a community, and community is made
            up of all different types. Seems to me
            you’re the dictator insisting that everyone should give everything away free
            and only “non commercial” grid owners should make any money (via
            arbitrary donations). Oh and he does all that while charging exceedingly reasonable fees for land.

          • Thanks Nox.

          • oopsee

            dont’t recall calling anyone anything .. i am responding to the notion that commercialization and monetizing opensim metaverse improves the free opensim software and that not having this retards it’s development as butch claims.
            my reference to LL and secondlife is that geeee it’s a proven grid already set up and running for just the purpose that many who advocate wanting to commercialize and monetize the opensim metaverse. So go there why re-invent the wheel.
            The only reason to bring commercial or money to opensim metaverse is to profit. There is no other reasons and the ones stated in these comments are not reasons but rationalizations for doing so.
            No one asked butch or anyone else to provide anything to anyone nor is he required to. He and others who spend money and want to recover costs then use that idea as an excuse to charge is fallacious reasoning for bringing commercialization and money to the opensim metaverse. There are grids like secondlife already available to do so. Stay there.

          • Allan Carr

            I just want to point out that money is the usual means by which people are rewarded for their efforts in this difficult life, so when people get more money for making something better things generally get better. Also I totally agree with the concept of a completely free and open Opensim. IMHO the model which joins those two concepts is that of the internet.

            Also, the reason for the proliferation of bugs in the software is complete lack of Q&A in the development process. You simply cannot do development on a piece of code this large and this complex without proper testing and releasing buggy software on a weekly basis on a “test” grid is not proper testing.

          • oopsee

            sorry but profit is not a sole motivation for “making something better”.
            Sometimes it is just the thrill of accomplishment and seeing others enjoying it that is the reward. I feel that sums up the true spirit of opensim community, not shopping malls.
            There are so many capable and talented people making all manner of “quality” content and giving free and full perms. Maybe an article on promoting that aspect rather than “shopping and spending money” would be news?
            It is a test grid. That was the intention of its creation. Want stability then heheehe there are alternatives yes? The idea is that those impacted will find flaws faster than otherwise yes?

          • Allan Carr

            I actually could not agree more, personally; I make stuff for my own enjoyment and pass it around freely. My regions are always totally free and wide open. I am just saying that this is not a particularly good way to foster excellence in anything, and keeps the entire enterprise small and amateurish. Which is fine IMO, but it will never get much bigger and there is always the threat of it just dying due to lack of interest.

            And this whole test grid business has been a sore point with me for as long as I have been around. This is not how you test anything unless I missed something and it is still 1962. If it is a so-called “test” grid, write a TOS, make that the first paragraph and display it prominently on the website. I have chosen not to participate in the ad-hoc grid testing program and have not upgraded since 2015. Quite happily i might add.

          • oopsee

            You know one person took offense that I say “go back to secondlife” however it has all the things that are said to be lacking in opensim, the very same they are whining about. Also it is free hahahaha, no cost to join or sell their so called “superior content” whatsoever. In fact many secondlife creators use SOS and opensim metaverse due to “no upload fees, the ability to save oar’s and iar’s”. They sell in the various “already set up for that” grids. Easy Peasy. No need to economize or mall’ify the opensim metaverse.
            I do not agree that opensim is small and amateurish at all. 300 grids and 70.000 regions and growing? There are many regions in secondlife that are hmm lacking a certain quality as well. So what? I don’t agree that economy and commercial content sales are the answer to bring more folks or improve content quality. The facts state just the opposite. The private walled gardens with all their “superior content” are the grids in decline.
            There are open public meetings inworld to share your ideas of how opensim software/testing can be improved. I happen to not enjoy sudden shocks of “ruh ro” so I make a home elsewhere and only visit that grid.
            The reason opensim software even exists is due to Linden Labs. They realized that many of the greatest innovations happen in the garage. They could let loose just enough code to make a simple grid and then sit back and gobble up any goodies that might result. I don’t think they envisioned the day when it would foster competition to themselves. So far it hasn’t much and the opensim metaverse grows not due to economy or content sales but other reasons.
            KEEP OPENSIM FREE AND FULL PERMISSIONS

          • oopsee

            sure butch is a nice guy however i do not see his geniality a “reason” for commercializing or monetizing the opensim metaverse. He accuses me and “others like me” of retarding opensim software development due to our wanting to keep it FREE and FULL PERMS. Not accurate in the least nor polite and nice. So I say well, get to the grid where it is not FREE and FULL PERMS. Want to make a buck go to secondlife. That makes sense to me.
            Want to start a standalone grid fine. Want to rent that land ok. Want to provide a service to others by being a host no problem.
            Want to sell, re-sell content, spam advertise in every available forum, create a money system to promote the facility of selling or re-selling for the entirety of opensim grids not ok. Go to secondlife it is already set up for that.
            That is what is on the discussion table here not the niceness or ignorance of any individual.

          • Hi oopsie,

            I appreciate your strong opinion and I respect it, but I don’t agree.
            I’ve never been an advocate for taking away anything, or running OpenSim as if it were a dictatorship, quite the opposite really. You see, I’ve often “Pushed” for the entire OpenSim community to come together to help to define the path OpenSim should take, which features it should have, which bugs should receive priority focus, to try to organize a way for the entire community to “Pitch In” to help fund the work we as a community has needed done.
            This includes votes and input from those who believe in a similar way as you do.

            I do not discount the idea there are many in the OpenSim community who feel exactly as you you do, and while I do not agree with your view, I do respect your opinion and would never advocate to leave your “Voice” out as I believe every member of the OpenSim community should have a voice in what is important to each of them, regardless of my view or the views of others.. everyone interested in the future of OpenSim should have a say.

            Here’s the thing about OpenSim.. it’s Open Source and as such, if you or I do not like the way the project is headed, we are free to “Fork” and start our very own project based on it.

            Nobody is forcing you or any other individual to use the services provided by a “Commercial” grid and I guess if you really feel that strongly about commercial grids and your viewpoint, you should probably not bother going to those grids for a visit to pick up the freebies found there.

            Being me, I’m the type of person whom if provided a service for free, or for a low price, I feel obligated to support the person supporting me. I’m not one to feel like I’m “Entitled” to anything.

            I’m sure you are a great person in real life, and I would invite you over for dinner once in awhile… but if you continued to show up each day at dinner time for an extended period of time “Expecting” to be fed without contributing, I’m afraid eventually I’d have to put my foot down and turn you away.

            I’m a firm believer in a person should “Pull their own weight”.. if you can’t program, if you can’t create, if you can’t entertain, if you can’t help test and report on your findings, if you can’t educate, if you can’t provide leadership, or in some other way contribute to the project, then you should not be part of it, otherwise, you are simply a drain on resources better spent on someone else who can/will help to make the community stronger.

            You’re completely entitled to you opinion, and so am I, but I respectfully disagree with your views as stated.

          • oopsee

            Fork away …
            Since I despise commercial grids why would I go there for any content or assume I would. There is an enormous amount of quality free content available without having to purchase. Frankly that is the demise of commercial content grids anyway.
            The interesting thing is that my freebies are present in many of these commercial grids and the original full permissions I set have been changed to no modify, no copy and no transfer.
            I donate money to my home grid as I do understand it is not free to host. My donation goes direct to the grid management and not through sellers or re-sellers. These donations help to defray the costs of operating.
            Not wanting a monitization or commercialization of the opensim metaverse is not saying “take a free ride”.
            I am affected by marketplaces and grids who sell content by spam marketing in every nook and corner they can find. The more there are the worse it is. So to say I don’t have to participate is to ignore the total impact of having people in opensim wanting to profit.

            Keep it FREE AND FULL PERMS

          • TR Lifter

            Seems to me, oopsee, that you are the bully on the playground here that says “Play my way, or go home”. Maybe it is you that should heed your own advice and return to that walled garden they call Second Life… 🙂 Jus’ sayin’ 🙂

          • Arielle

            Quote by oopsee: ” take away the privileges like god powers and downloading oars, iar’s with the excuse of protecting content ”

            If that section of your post is the real issue behind this and your other posts, I am 100% in agreement with you. In no ways should our freedom in Opensim be curtailed with the excuse that it protects commercial content. The responsibility for such protections should lie with those grids who are attempting to attract creators of commercial content, not of Opensim grids and standalones as a whole. Any attempts by commercial grid owners to to cripple the Opensim platform in those ways should be met with full opposition. Opensim after all is still alpha software and bugs often happen that change permissions, corrupt content and regions and therefore require easy ways to backup all content through oars and iars and use God mode to revert permissions to what they were supposed to be. I for one, do not wish to have to attract down 100’s of creators to ask for a resend of content of theirs that I have if that were even possible in a world where some change their name faster then I change outfits. Opensim for a lot of users is about ease of use

            Having said that, I also fully agree with much of what Butch has said in furthering Opensim as a whole and that it will require some financial considerations. The problem is that the commercial entity’s often believe that can only be accomplished by attracting commercial creators who wish to have Opensim restricted in its ability to easily backup and copy content. In that way commercial and free grids users and owners are diametrically opposed in what they see as being the way forward and why it is difficult to come together in a way that benefits both and ultimately Opensim as a whole.

            In some ways the point is moot as the Opensim Devs seem to be moving ahead and restricting the platform to benefit commercial grids already without any real input from the community as a whole. Perhaps back room bartering with commercial grids as they have more apparent financials to sway such things.

          • I agree to the moot point, and we have yet to see it fully…all of such discussions here will likely change quite a bit then. Just their recent fiddlings with god powers (of which I didn’t understand and may be quite benign) worries me.

          • oopsee

            Happy to see someone gets my point agreed with or not. Seems the acerbic replies are really not quite getting it but rather too focused on their own agenda for profit.
            Try looking down the road a little. Profit interests will lobby for locking down and protecting their agenda, to make money. Look now, a very small group of grid owners who make a lot of noise for their personal gain disguising it as “good for all”.
            The real reason I posted here and opened myself to be skewered by a very small minority is that … this article like others here are written not so much as news but more as propaganda promoting the special interests of the publisher (“I love to shop”). To read this article and others on this site one would think that this profit agenda is a majority opinion.
            The simple fact is that were a monetary system wanted by the majority it would have occurred long ago. The vast majority of grids and certainly the largest ones don’t have an interest in an economy and it is not because they don’t know how to config it either hahahaha. So that leaves the door open to a former secondlife employee who only sees dollar signs to creep in the back door. Whats next? You bet a full blown lobby campaign using all manner of superfluous “it is good for you” while locking down in any way possible their need to protect their junk, iar’s, oars, etc say goodbye. Say it isn’t so or possible and I say take off the rose color glasses.
            What has changed is the perception by a few is that there is money to be made here but only if we can get these large free grids to see how badly the community wants it and provide a vehicle for them, globits. Hence propaganda to make a lot of noise and lobby to make it so. Look up the meaning of propaganda … it is not evil it is a tool of persuasion to promote a certain viewpoint. That is exactly what this article is and not a reflection of what is wanted by the majority of free opensim grids or or their communities.
            KEEP IT FREE AND FULL PERMS

          • Arielle

            Quote by oopsee: “Happy to see someone gets my point agreed with or not. Seems the acerbic replies are really not quite getting it but rather too focused on their own agenda for profit. ”

            No offence but it did take you quite a number of posts to get to the point. Either side beating around the bush and taking an extreme position is not going to help to come to some sort of compromise if there is a choice in the matter. Secondlife has proven that Free and commercial content as well as free and paying residents can coexist, so for either you or Butch to argue that only Free or only Paid will carry Opensim to the long term is demonstrably false.

          • noxluna

            Hi Arielle, just to correct you a little bit, Butch never argued for a Paid ONLY opensim. So far in this hijacked thread the only person demanding that opensim be one way only is oopsee (unless I missed a post that says otherwise)

    • I have nothing against “FREE”. Just like the next person, if I can get something I want or need for free instead of paying, by all means, sign me up.. I’ll be all over that!

      With that being said, I also realize that “Free” is never really “FREE”.
      Anything in this world, has a cost associated with it.

      Metropolis and OSGrid have been pointed to as examples of “Free”. But are they really?
      The servers have to be paid by someone, somewhere. The electric to power those servers have to be paid. The bandwidth being used by the servers have to be paid by someone. So they aren’t really free.
      These grids are funded by donations, and some have even been funded “Out of Pocket”, but there is no grid anywhere that has ever been free. Even a standalone running on someone’s computer has a cost associated with it to run it.

      Just because a user does not have to pay to connect to these grids does not make them free.

      If I were to setup a grid and make it free to for user to connect their regions to, I still have a cost that I need to pay for the servers, bandwidth, and storage I’m providing to these users. So this means either I “Eat” the costs associated with it while I drink my 5th of generosity, or I accept donations which either pay.. or help me to pay these costs.

      “Free” is a model that never works in the long term.

      Look at the list of grids… you mention OSGrid and Metro as being the largest grids.. why is that? It’s not rocket science.. it’s because they allow other users to host their own regions and attach them to those grids for free.

      If Ford suddenly decided to give away all of their vehicles for free.. which automobile manufacturer do you think would be the largest?

      By contrast, DigiWorldz hosts and provides tech services to other grids. All of these grids are commercial.. ie, you have to pay for land there. Sure, each offers free land, but it’s not free forever.
      So that makes these grids “commercial”.
      Again, take a look at the list of grids and their popularity… mmm.. that’s strange, 5 of these commercial grids are in the top 20 grids.
      3 are in the top 10 grids. 1 has recently been consistantly more popular than Metro, and at times they have been busier than osgrid as well.

      What does that mean?
      That means the users on these grids have chosen to “Pay” money to these grids for the “Value” they are recieving.
      What is this value?
      – Perfomance
      – Stability
      – Consistancy
      – Features
      – Support

      Sure, you can argue the level of these are fine on the “Free” grids. and an argument is simply a disagreement between one or more parties who think differently.

      So let’s look at these “Free” grids… sure, they don’t charge you for their services, but they are hopeful you will help pay their bills by donating.

      Each user who signs up on these grids and uploads inventory, the “Storage” requirements for these grids increase, the number of servers required to run the grid increases, the bandwidth usage of the servers increases, the amount of tech support issues increases, and the risk of something going horribly wrong increases.

      These grids also allow people to connect “Older” OpenSim versions which may degrade the “experiences” of each user who connects when compared to the majority of the regions.

      These grids are hopeful that each user finds some value in their services and this will cause the users to then donate money to the cause.. why? Because they have bills to pay.

      Don’t believe me?
      Metro: https://hypergrid.org/metropolis/wiki/en/index.php?title=Spenden
      OSGrid: http://www.osgrid.org/index.php/donate

      These grids are completely at the mercy of their users. If users don’t donate, where does the money come from to pay for the servers?
      These grids are “Begging” users to donate money to them to pay their bills.

      By contrast, take a commercial grid.. they are completely upfront about services which require payment, but they too offer some “Free” services. Let’s use DigiWorldz for example.
      Some of the free services a user can obtain at DigiWorldz:
      – Support – paid and free users receive the same level of attention and this attention is first class. (http://digiworldz.com/feedbackcomments.php)
      – Free land – each user on DigiWorldz is entitled to free land from DigiWorldz to give them an opportunity to try us out. Additionally, many of our users offer free land as well, with no time limits.
      – Features not found on some of the other grids – both free and paid users get to use these
      – Great Performance because we pay for quality hardware and bandwidth – both paid and free users get to use this.
      – Reliability – We store backups for 30 days.. this storage space is not free to us, but a free user’s inventory is backed up just like a paid users.
      – Stability – Both free and paid users
      – Free iar downloads both free and paid users
      – Free iar uploads both free and paid users
      – Free classifieds both free and paid users
      – Free uploads both free and paid users
      – Attend events
      etc…

      My point here is this, there is nothing wrong with receiving something for free, but “I” “ALWAYS” understand there is a cost associated with everything in life… even something someone gives me for free, So my morals and pride would require me to “Give Back” to someone who has offered something to me for free.. this is what the “FREE” grids are hoping for from their users.

      It’s also true in most cases, you get what you pay for.
      If I pay someone for something, then I will expect a certain level of usability and performance from the service or product and If I don’t get the product as advertised, I then will have a “Claim” to get a refund, or to get my service or product fixed.
      With a free service, that doesn’t always work out well as you never paid for it to begin with so why should you be complaining?

      The truth is, if eveyone who finds value in OpenSim were to pay just $10/year to the developers, the developers would have plenty of money to “PAY” programmers to come and help with development. We would have funding to do all sorts of things and we would “ALL” benefit from it.

      I would propose the members of the community who are always wanting everything for free should ask themsleves if they find value in their experiences on all grids.. free and paid and if the answer is yes.. contribute. Donate to the “Free” grids, or buy land on the commercial grids, or buy content from content creators.

      Not everyone is in a position to contribute to your enjoyment for free.

      Try going to a movie and tell them you don’t want to pay.. or to a gas station to get gasoline and tell them you don’t want to pay… or, when your next utility bill comes in.. argue your free points with them.. or when it’s time to buy groceries.. argue your points with them, but please.. record all of those and share with us so we can all get a good laugh.

      FREE IS NEVER FREE!!!

      • Da Hayward

        yup

      • Well, I was going to do a more in depth response to this particular comment Terry, but I am a bit lost now reading all the other fast and furious comments that occurred while I was in sleep land.

        So, suffice to say that, if you recall, I helped in 3rg doing some terraforming of quite a few core regions, for free (and that was OK!! I offered…just pointing it out since I think you were not anyplace else at the time). I knew you were around and I have always gotten good feelings about you, personally. So please understand that I am not intending to be adversarial here to you.

        I do want to point out a couple of things to hopefully clarify.

        Firstly, when I personally say “free meta” I am just referring to a concept. Of course I know, as do we all, that nothing is really free…but, however, there are all sorts of ways for things to be paid. When I refer to the “free meta” I am referring to non-commercial, no currency places…even tho within that I know there is some monies that are spent which would in some peoples’ eyes spell commercialism. So be it then, I am not one to split hairs or make mountains out of molehills.

        I was the one who mentioned OSG and Metro as free grids while pointing out to Gunner where he could find some data as he seemed to need that.

        I like Metropolis a whole lot and have a great respect for the “attitudes” of the admins and other regulars there who help in various ways. I have seen them do good things over and over again. One of which was when OSG was down for that several months many people came to Metro to run their regions up and continue on their virtual lives as best they could while waiting for OSG to get back going.

        But of course this strained the then current resources of the grid and slowed things down all over it, OARs and IARs being uploaded and such, in a short time. Some people then opted to form their own personal grids with friends or alone. Metro upgraded and things calmed down…it was all a positive things with no animosity at all and no negativity, it is part of the Metro vision to be good citizens of the Hyperverse, and I love that.

        But neither Metro or OSG would consider their asking for donations as begging, and that leaves a rather negative connotation. Metro actually does not press out requests until something is specifically needed. They like automatic payments of course, but the donation button is just there, and obviously, of course, the money is needed at any time. But it is not begging.

        As well, Metro actually does rent regions to help with costs, I have one. A bit back they made it one price for up to 4×4 vars. Via here https://hypergrid.org/metropolis/wiki/en/index.php?title=Hauptseite and here https://hypergrid.org/metropolis/wiki/en/index.php?title=SIM-Miete you can find out all about what Metro is all about.

        OSG itself does not rent out lands, afaik, but many residents do and several hosting companies also rent lands. So as with Metro there are some bits of commercialism.

        So while Metro is slightly different than OSG, it falls in the same general category of no currency not commercial.

        As far as numbers go Metro started growing in earnest when OSG disconnected hypergrid travel to it. It was not a good time and I only bring it up because it has continued to grow. I don’t understand this,

        “Look at the list of grids… you mention OSGrid and Metro as being the largest grids.. why is that? It’s not rocket science.. it’s because they allow other users to host their own regions and attach them to those grids for free.”

        People don’t make use of the ability to attach their simulators to either grid just because it is free to do so…well, maybe some do…but they do it because they like the grid for various reasons. All those who do so certainly know they can run their own simulators separately, that’s what they do. It is a totally different mindset involved than with commercial grids.

        But that doesn’t make either one intrinsically “bad” it just makes them different. Personally as my focus in mostly VisionZ related I embrace any simulators that connect to the hyperverse….it is a focused thing due to my life situation. I have may friends in commercial grids and I keep running into more of them all the time. I sometimes attend events in them as I did in Zangrid the other day ’cause Ceci was performing and I luves me some CC!

        oopsee, as are many other free content creators of course are more passionate as things relate to it…oopsee is actually one of the more prolific creators in the free Meta and well regarded.

        I see the opposing thoughts as just passion about what we all do. That doesn’t make oopsee a bad person, and she isn’t. But just like quite a few others who make free content any can see such things in commercial grids…in fact Aine’s Danceball is ubiquitous throughtout the hypergrid connected spaces.

        Now some have asseverated that since we can all easily jump from one grid to another, and most of us do that all the time, that this skews the numbers….while there is some truth to that, it is also true that people don’t hypergate but use separate accounts to log into grids….of course this is especially true for closed grids who have no other choice…and that is where it is more of a wash between the two.

        If one could get those kind of numbers I believe it would show that a pretty much even amount of people who hypergrid around adds to a grids numbers, so does people in closed grids who login to different ones regular…I know this is the case with some creators as I used to be one and we followed each other around lol…before I found the hyperverse and Metro of course…hehe

        Anyway, longer than I meant but less than I could ..regards

      • Dharma Little

        What happened to MOSES and the foundation that was suppose to be set up to get funding? did everyone abandon them? what excuses can you share with us? that’s what they likely would be in my opinion.

        oopsee has some good opinions maybe your not seeing also? like myself having my own private stand alone why should I care if someone gets money.. were is a foundation that I can donate to? that’s set up as a real legit non-profit? I would rather give a few hundred dollars each month to a real foundation paying for developers,viewer developers,hub website with the thousand other things needed then rent land in someone else dream.
        I do not need to rent,buy at a mall or kitely market or anything, while the internet has millions of free 3d model content that works for me. I only wanted to donate to a opensim that has got itself together!

        Many would donate to a non-profit, but prefer not to live the life like they had in SL

        oopsee has an opinion, that’s not so meaningless, it should not just be discarded with a fast opposing one.

        • Da Hayward

          good for you.
          oopsee ripped into butch not the other way around, and good for you having your own private stand alone kinda makes your comments moot dosn’t it. This is about Gloebits and a community

      • Fanny

        It’s a shame so many grids have settled on the same price point for their sims, as we’ve seen recently with Genesis a price of ~ 5$ for a sim causes a large influx of users. According to Dragon that price is sustainable.

        • Da Hayward

          $5 for a 256 x 256?
          is that right Fanny.
          It would be sustainable

        • “According to Dragon that price is sustainable”. The price, yes, the grid, no. A grid can not continue to run and grow on $5 regions – GCG proved that years ago. Someone like Dragon should know better and have done their research, unless of course he doesn’t want you to know. The grid requires a great deal of money to keep it operating at prime efficiency, it would appear this is around $10-15 a region (certainly better than the $300US for an SL region), to pay for equipment, upkeep, staffing and promotion.

          • With a standard configuration and business model, no, $5 a month isn’t sustainable — you’ll be paying more than that for hosting.

            However, I’m absolutely certain that there are folks out there right now experimenting with Kitely-style on-demand models, or some other kind of low-cost infrastructure, who will be able to get the per-region costs down.

            Plus, a grid can also use the land prices as a loss leader in order to attract people to its higher-priced services. For example, it may offer revenue-generating adult content, gambling (where legal, of course!), specialized classes, training, or consulting, proprietary role playing games, high-end virtual shopping, or sales of real-world products or services.

            For example, a fortune telling grid can take a cut from all the income generated by fortune tellers, and use that to offset land prices. People expect to pay real money for fortunes. At $20, say, per session, that could easily add up.

          • the Maria Korolov Fortune Telling website?

          • Da Hayward

            yes i think Dragons prices now are $7.95 per region. I agree that $5 per region is too low,

      • oopsee

        I never said anything about cost of servers to use Opensim. You are correct there is a cost. Some are paid with users paying tier and others by donations. Since Osgrid and Metropolis have been around the longest it would seem their “model” of “no economy” works fine. I donate money to these grids as I do realize the cost of operation and others do not. If that model was flawed then I submit the free grids would have declined and poof’d long ago. Fact is they are the winners over the “for profit grids” and I would imagine will continue to be.
        The issue of my posts are “economy vs none”. My posts here are about content sale supported by an economy. That is what all my posts relate to not cost of server.
        Ask yourself …. Secondlife, Inworldz are the largest private economy grids right? Why are they in decline? Why are the “free” opensim metaverse grids growing? I submit they decline despite massive advertising campaigns and opensim metaverse grows as people are not so interested in these profit driven economies. The opensim metaverse offers a successful “free” alternative.
        So if that premise is accepted by facts then why in the world would anyone want to bring a failing concept economy to the opensim metaverse?
        They see the opensim free grids as virgin territory where they do not have to compete with an over saturated marketplace. Virgin territory. All kinds of excuses are made by them, superior content, bring people etc. to justify their wanting to escape an economy and marketplace that they find difficult to compete in. Don’t agree? Then why are they here promoting a for profit concept that is failing in those economy driven grids? It is opportunism at it’s finest.
        Want a metaverse full of shopping malls and advertising? Gee, get to Secondlife or Inworldz. No need to duplicate what is failing there and bring it to the greater opensim “free” metaverse.
        KEEP IT FREE AND FULL PERMS – it works despite claims to the contrary!

  • Jessica Random

    Reading the merchant page it seems that cashing out is not always possible anyway. Because of the ability of someone to reverse transactions of RL money into Gloebits they imply that Glowbits bought using methods that allow reverses may not be able to be cashed out. In reality this mostly means if people buy Gloebits with PayPal, as PayPal can reverse that transaction for quite some time, when people pay merchants with Gloebits bought using this method – the merchants may not be able to cash these out in case the purchaser claims that money back!

    While I understand the difficulty in having money reversed and Gloebits not wanting to be in a position where they have to pay out money they may simply not have, in my view this makes the currency possibly undesirable from the point of view of merchants who intend to cash out in RL money – how much of their Gloebits will they be able to cash out? Will they ever know until they try? How many people would fund Gloebits from PayPal (I know I don’t use anything else online if I can avoid it)?

  • Suz Blessed

    Another cool thing that makes buying and selling with Gloebit interesting is the products permissions. The creator can set his or her product in Copy only and the product , even after taken to another grid will still have those permissions. Until now a product needed export ( Kitely ) or transfer. well there is no creator who does want to loose some income and sell their products Copy/Transfer. So this is a really good solution. For the Fashion makers…..Copy only works !!!!!
    Merchants set the permissions and they will stay this way:)

    • I do want to point out that, when it comes to protecting content, folks who want to steal it from you 1) probably won’t buy it first, and 2) can use copybot to get almost everything except scripts.

      Meanwhile, for legitimate buyers, who want to do the right thing, please help them out by including a description of the license terms in the content itself. Are they allowed to take it to other grids? Are they allowed to share it with other avatars they own, or do they need to buy separate copies? Are they allowed to resell, distribute, or use as part of commercial builds? The clearer the license terms, the easier it will be for buyers to respect the creator’s wishes — and help keep the creator making more stuff!

      For protecting scripts, if that is a concern, restricting sales to closed grids is one option. Another is to use server-side scripts, so that only part of the functionality is available to the user — the rest stays hidden away on servers only you control. This is harder to do, but may be worth it for high-end commercial content that you want to distribute widely.

      Say, for example, you’re selling breedable chickens and you don’t want folks to copy your secret code. You could have the chicken’s script contact a main control script on your private server to ask for updates – like the chicken’s age or color, or whether it’s mature enough to lay eggs. (Okay, I don’t know much about virtual chickens.) Then, if a request comes in from a grid that you don’t support, or an avatar who hasn’t paid for the chicken, your server can reject that request.

      Or if you have a talking AI secretary (and I want one!) you could send the question by script to your server, and then the server would send back the answer, so that your secret-sauce AI code is all behind the scenes, inaccessible to pirates.

    • Hi Suz,

      It wasn’t clear from your comment, so I want to clarify that you can sell items in Kitely Market with whatever combination of permissions that you’d like and those permissions will be kept when they are delivered to both Kitely and Hypergrid avatars. You don’t have to make items Transfer for you to be able to sell them as Export in Ktiely Market, so there is no problem selling Copy/Export but no-Transfer items in Kitely Market.

      • Suz Blessed

        Apologies for that, but yes this is what i mean 🙂

        • NP, I just wanted to make sure that people who read your comment are left with the correct info. 🙂

  • Rique Giano

    I have read now everything that has been published on here and what people are saying, First is why people are reacting like this like we are waiting how it goes, why dont you work with it and not against it. Then you will see how it goes !!

    I thought opensim is supporting eachothers ideas and not working against eachother, And yes its new, be a part of it, and let your residence make the choice if they want the gloebits or the grid currency, its something extra you can offer. you have to think about your creators and residents, not about yourself . Lots of people on grids doesnt even know hypergridbusiness, because they just come an play , some doesnt even have g+ where they can read things too…

    And yes people want free stuff , sure .. Are you sure they legit ??? As there are lots of freebie places that gives things away yes, where did they come from ??

    And i would say to the registrated grids out there, work toghetter and make opensim big again, and do not make gridwars or even hosting wars … as i feel lots ot tension here .

    • I’m with you on the working together part — OpenSim has a unique opportunity right now, with SL being in transition, to try to expand to a larger, more sustainable user base.

      More users means:

      * More attention to OpenSim paid by viewer developers
      * More content creators coming in to sell their stuff
      * More potential friends to meet — which makes OpenSim even more attractive to other users
      * Large audiences for performers and other event organizers
      * More customers for grids and hosting companies, so that they can invest in more marketing and OpenSim development

      Content is one of the big draws for new users, as well as low prices and ease of use.

      Meanwhile, if you are a fan of non-commercial activity, please don’t bash people doing commercial stuff. It’s very counterproductive. You might not like to spend money — but you don’t have to. Nobody is making you. Commercial activity does not drive out non-commercial activity. Commercial activity brings in more users for ALL, including for non-commercial efforts, for donation drives, and so on.

      Plus, commercial activity puts more money in the hands of grid owners and hosting companies. And most of them reinvest quite a bit of that into development. Kitely, InWorldz, Avination, DigiWorldz — all the commercial grids I can think of — have been donating a ton of code. They also do testing, and bug fixes and a bunch of other stuff that benefits the entire community. Not to mention that if they have money, they also spend it on marketing, which helps bring in new users. And don’t forget that when OSgrid had their server problems, other commercial grids stepped in to help. Avination’s Melanie Thielker put in a lot of work to get things fixed. DigiWorldz’ Terry Ford spearheaded a donation drive.

      A few years ago, a researcher did an analysis of the people who contribute to OpenSim developed and discovered that OpenSim is an unusual open source project because of the wide variety of people who work on it:

      https://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2012/04/hobbyists-becoming-more-important-to-opensim-success/
      http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2012/01/entrepreneurs-key-to-opensim-success/

      We’ve got corporations, academics, hobbyists, and lots and lots of entrepreneurs.

      I really believe that this variety is one of the things that makes the OpenSim project so robust and, if it OpenSim takes off, will be one of the major factors underpinning its success.

      • Da Hayward

        “I’m with you on the working together part — OpenSim has a unique opportunity right now, with SL being in transition, to try to expand to a larger, more sustainable user base”
        So Very very true Maria.

      • Cinder Biscuits

        What do you mean by “More attention to OpenSim paid by viewer developers”? 95% or more of viewer development is done by Linden Lab. There are a handful of viewer developers outside of that. Two or three on Firestorm now, four active on Alchemy/Singularity, two for Kokua, one for CoolVL. That’s nine people, four of whom I know actually give a damn about giving people a choice besides Second Life, and those of us who do are constantly being accused of ignoring and neglecting OpenSim which is disparaging to say the least.

  • Dear all those who want opensim to be free and fuill perm and to all you drama starters.
    Please go away. Its people like you that ruin the fun of a community and drive people out of opensim and back into SL.
    Content creators dont push a button and content magically appears, it takes time and effort to make things so those people have the right to be compensated for their time. Afterall they are human too and need to eat.
    As for c# and lsl developers. Same thing. Take Mr. Terry Ford for example. He doesn’t have a job because he is spending most of his time helping others in the opensim community and making sure the grids he help manage stay online and lagfree as much as possible. If he does what he does for free then how do you suppose he would be able to eat and keep the power on and roof over his head so he can do what he does?
    Please for everyone’s sake. Stop demanding for opensim to be completely free and full perm and start being considerate of others.
    I understand that some people like me cant afford content in SL or opensim but unlike those who want everything for free, i understand that content have a price so that creator can pay bills and EAT!
    We as humans do need food in order to stay alive.
    If we all made things for free then we wont be able to eat and soon die. Do you freebie people want content creators to die from starvation? I sure don’t.

    • Han Held

      >Please go away.
      http://forum.cheatengine.org/files/no-u_110.jpg

      It’s like what Hank Hill said about Christian rock;
      https://i.imgur.com/kujsU.jpg
      IE “You’re not making a commerical market better -you’re making opensim worse”

      SL is better suited to commercial interests, so if you’re here to make a buck, you’re on a fool’s errand anyway. And attempts to lock down opensim will only drive away hobbyist creators by throwing up stupid roadblocks.

      “Die from starvation” -wtf. Pure histronics and/or rhetorical misdirection; get some perspective.

    • iidripdiamonds diamond

      I agree my staff member was harassed by another grid owner saying why are things for sale on our grid and we are not second life. Who are people to make others feel a way for selling quality content to there residents. So we should just give everything away that we slaved over because you want it. I don’t agree lots of people make income off there creations and should not feel guilty about wanting to sell there items by any resident or other grid owner.

  • Han Held

    I’m not gonna chase down every thread so I’ll just respond in one post:

    1)Terry Ford is good people; I may not agree with him, but I don’t think he should be slammed.

    2)WE are the cliques. Talla’s claim about ‘freebie cliques’ or whatever is laughable on its’ face. Those of us who manage communities, shops or try to make a buck off of opensim do NOT represent most people on the hypergrid. Again -WE are the clique. The people who come on to opensim and just want to make a place for themselves are NOT the clique. As usual Talla’s perspective is demonstrably wrong, but let’s not go too far down that road.

    3)I don’t agree 100% with Oopsee’s arguments, but I cheer her enthusiasm and she is fighting the good fight. I have tried to make a more nuanced argument for free content for years and time and time again my arguments get mischaracterized into a straw man argument that people can knock down. Subtle doesn’t work, I’ll vouch for that. Since people won’t listen to moderate voices, more radical ones have to come out and I’m glad to read her arguments.

    4)Opensim is in decline. I see and agree with Terry’s assessment of the future, though not for the reasons he does. It has nothing to do with Free content, but rather with the larger forces of the hype cycle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle …heck, opensim ITSELF hasn’t even had a release in what, a year and a half? (as I write, the latest version on the front page is 0.8.2.1), and people are increasingly fighting for scraps from a shrinking pie as mindshare moves on to Sinewave Space and other next-generation platforms. As these fights grow more acrimonious, opensim becomes a far less fun and more weird place to be …so people are peeling off either to “the next thing” or away from the weirdness that results from increased desperation.

    (two edits, one to change ‘how’ to ‘who’ and one to clean up typos)

    • Han Held

      For the sake of disclosure; I am one of the people who has pulled out of opensim (tho I obviously watch, since I’m here) because it’s too weird, too combative and I’ve seen one too many scammers get defended and I want NO PART of that s***

      • Da Hayward

        Well we are sticking with open sim, its people who make anything work and there are some really good people in open sim. There is free content on most grids alongside the merchants so I don’t think its a biggy at all.
        The thread is about Gloebit. Which is another option for people in OS…how can that be bad?

        • Han Held

          Personally, I don’t think it necessarily is bad. It’s an option and people like me who don’t want to be bitten on the rear by it can simply not use it for now. If I was out here I could see myself possibly using it once any bugs in it were found and shaken out.

          My reasons for bailing are all interpersonal. tldr -opensim isn’t fun anymore.

          • Da Hayward

            Ok Han

    • OMFG thats it im out too now. I can no longer deal with the stupidity, arrogance and selfishness of Han Held and Oopsee any longer. its people like them that causes people like me and linda kellie to leave opensim.

      Btw Han my VirtLife (dot net) is free and full perm to digiworldz only because of people like you who would take my stuff and claim its their own creation. THAT is why content is NOT free or full perm. Credit where credit is due!

      WIth that all said. Chris OUT! (mic drop)

    • Talla Adam

      There you go Han Held, ‘freebie cliques’ are your words not mine. The clique I mentioned was a small bunch of people that hate other people making money off their own creations in Opensim. What I said to oopsee was “you are part of a small clique that have never missed an opportunity to insult, deride and put down people that try to make any money out of THEIR own grid and THEIR hard work”

      It is clear you are attempting to twist my words to make it sound like I’m attacking people that give freebies away which I’m not and you know it.

      • Han Held

        So you did -I misread and replied to what I thought I was reading, instead of what you actually wrote. It’s a common mistake and one that I’ve even been on the recieving end of.

        I’m able to have a dialog about when and how I’m in the wrong and even cop to it when I am …as I am now.

        Given our personal differences, an apology is out of the question -but I’ll cop to my mistake. Mea culpa.

        • Talla Adam

          I would never expect an apology from you of course but I’m grateful none the less for you admitting to your error at least.

          • Han Held

            To be clear; under normal circumstances, with normal people -an apology would be warranted and I’d have extended it.

            Neither of those apply here. 🙂

          • Han Held

            That’s something I try to make a point of doing, to be honest. It’s a point of pride for me. As a rule, my door is always open and if I’m genuinely in the wrong I’ll cop to it. If someone has a problem with me, I’m always open to hearing about it and talking it out.

            It’s a shame that others don’t demonstrate that same level of interpersonal commitment, but that’s honestly their loss. It’s served me well, that’s about all I can say.

          • Han Held

            Of course; I am a big believer in both communication and to copping to my mistakes and working them out in a mature manner.

            ..and, I should mention in light of having two **innocuous** HGB comments apparently deleted (or are they just lost?) I’m also a big believer in free speech and having a light touch when it comes to the moderation of profanity-free, civil comments.

            Oh well, cest le guerre

            …as they say, “if you want something done right, do it yourself” …that’s why I run:
            https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/110006245558637608613 “Opensim Everything; Literally founded for free speech!”

            *[edit]* since I’m sure y’all will go for the hat trick: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+HanHeld/posts/5P9mqSzsHm8

          • Han Held

            My reply down-page to John Simmons seems to have disappeared too. Is this some sort of disqus/queing problem? Or something like reddit’s shadow ban?

            If multiple replies appear below Talla’s post (above) it’s because they appeared to be deleted when I checked back here hours later. :p

          • lmpierce

            Comments with links, words that are filtered, and guest posts automatically cause comments to go into a moderation queue. Moderation can take at least 24 hours, but is not guaranteed to result in a posted comment and a comment previously posted may be evaluated at a later date and removed. Comments are evaluated in light of the Discussion Guidelines… Profanity is likely to trigger moderation, however any comment evaluated as malicious and derisive of an individual will be removed. Comments about moderation are described in the Discussion Guidelines as subject to removal. If a comment is a reply to a deleted comment, it will probably be deleted as it has lost its antecedent.

            Posting comments is a privilege not a right. The Discussion Guidelines were developed so that contributors would understand the terms of service for posting comments. Aside from the policies in the Discussion Guidelines, comments are not moderated based on the ideas they express, nor are the merits of debates evaluated – that is up to the contributors. Considered criticism is permitted.

            If you feel your comment was removed and the reason is not clear, you can email me at [email protected].

            The Discussion Guidelines are here: http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/about/discussion-guidelines/

          • so in other words. you’re taking away our freedom of speech and a right to express our concerns. That sir is a dictatorship

          • lmpierce

            You may post a link to another forum or site that better compliments your desire to say things not permitted under our Discussion Guidelines.

          • https://hglist.info/ and dont bother trying to email me, i blocked you and maria from my live.ca account.

  • TribeGadgetsAsWas

    A little late but seems to have developed – took a look around internally and we had a disagree so.. as the service end of my group_that_was my take is this. I get paid as the whore I am in currency. Be it grid spec or yankee dollars – its trade. End of. No spec? go direct to paypal all good. Did a three hour set last night = 3kL$ easy. Minimum ha but buys some smokes end of month at least in offset of rent. Offered same in sine in … paypal direct base + ‘donations’ which are some mick souris money. First fine second meh. Plus made another 2 in 15 minutes doing – service. Its a living.

    Going to keep building though. With a couple of Burns, SLB and LEA under my belt and split comm and for the hell of it too. Restricted now to grids that not only protect but also are stable. To whit – IO, GCG and SL. Oddly enough, K too. I get a Ppal split there.

    Oh and worked it out – so why not Global+E+Bits – because bits is all as in pennies + ‘approved’ ie no tips. Nice touch. And I have never in a decade cashed out any grid ‘money’. I plough it back in.

    • Fanny

      Whot?

  • John Simmons

    I have my own reasons for staying away from the banking oligarchies and state fiat currencies of the world. I would enthusiastically endorse gloebits if, like Podex, there is a mechanism for exchanging them for bitcoin and avoiding Credit Cards, Paypal and banks. Until they do, Podex currencies are for me.

  • Han Held

    I’ve left opensim, I’m not sure if it’s a break or if it’s permanent. Even if I’m here I’m not sure I can do it this year -I had a literal heart attack last time …and Eryn and Zinnia were doing most of the work! If there’s interest in a 2017 Avatarfest -meaning people to help organize it and folks that want to exhibit or perform, I’d be happy to lend whatever support I’m able to.

    I agree completely with what you’ve written on the full perm and commercial topics. In the end, Opensim’s greatest strength is that it puts freedom into the hands of ordinary people; freedom needs to include the freedom to share, and the freedom to sell. I’ve worried that commercial interests have driven development in ways that are harmful to **voluntary** sharing, but I would never want to see “enforced sharing” …that’s no more free than having everything locked down and uncopyable.

    Ultimately creators and opensimmers (grid owners, merchants, whoever) need to have as many options as possible when it comes to sharing or selling their items.

  • Han Held

    >I think the majority of the “free opensim community” does not read or participate here. What you have is a very small group of people commenting here echoing each other and taking that multiplied echo effect erroneously as the “majority”.

    That is literally what I am talking about, you are correct. I even said much the same thing in my post to Talla, above, when I said that we are the clique. You are repeating a point to me which I have already made, as if It’s something I was unaware of.

    >I am amazed at the fallacious twisted excuses used in these comments promoting economy and content sales. It is purely opportunism and self aggrandizement driven. They are not valid reasons but excuses to promote economy and content sales.

    Unless you can show me a corresponding rise in donations to the grids you say are indicators of growth; then I’d have to say that that growth (if your claim is accurate) is wholly unsustainable.

    You’re no idiot, how long do you think that those grids will be able to keep on the lights?

    I haven’t checked in the last couple of months; but the last time I looked, Inworldz …a closed, commercial grid, had more folks than osgrid, metropolis has half of what osgrid has, and all other grids a distant third.

    Secondlife farts higher concurrency numbers than all of them combined. Tens of thousands compared to meager hundreds.

    Personally, I’m all in favor of self-aggrandizement. That horn ain’t gonna toot itself!

  • Arielle

    Shakes out a liberal dose of “Happy pills” over the thread and skips off to go spend some Gloebits. 😉

  • Han Held

    For what it’s worth, we welcome talk about Space, High Fidelity or any other next-gen VW on “opensim everything”. Feel free to look us up on G+ if you like.

    I’ll repeat what I said earlier; it’s not the free users causing opensim’s decline, it’s the exodus of creators to new pastures, the exodus of developers to new pastures and the increasing conflict (and -correspondingly, the decreasing fun) driving folks away from opensim.

    From what I can see -and others seem to agree, this isn’t a fun avocation any more.

    • Bob Hayforth

      The best effort might be the entire community just transplanting new a new platform. one that can met both most needs. if done in one big push together then most things like communities/identities/friendships can be preserved.

      It may end something like this in an analogy sort of way if left untreated.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiuVInSnTZs

      • Han Held

        I don’t think the community is one thing -bits and pieces; large ones, already are migrating. EG I’m Han Held in space. I’m part of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators in SL, a democratic, self-run estate. I’ve been thinking the same thing as you’re saying. The CDS will probably outlast SL and I feel we should be considering setting up camp in Space, High Fidelity or similar.

        I agree with you that we should all be looking towards what we’re gonna do when the show is over…

    • Arielle

      Han, a little secret I have discovered. The ONLY people not having fun in these sort of things are the ones on forums, G+ and Disqus. Smart people either stay away from them or come for a little comic relief. It is exactly the same on the forums of another Virtual world I inhabit. Once in a while I get a bit bored and go visit the forums. Within a couple hours of reading I am ready to slit my wrists of both myself and my avi’s. Doom and gloom, the end is nigh, the game is being ruined by developers, creators, users, the government and anyone else they can drag into the picture. Been like that for well over 10 years but the world keeps plodding on oblivious to the numerous opinions of all the naysayers. Developers come and go, creators come and go and make room for new ones and its all good. Eat, drink and cyber for tommorrow our virtual sky will NOT fall ^_^

  • Well I am one of those who would prefer to pay for what I want, IF what I need was available in Opensim. But most is not. Not where I can be sure that it is legal.For me Opensim is about “free = freedom” not as free for 0 money.

    Is that to be for commerce? No, it is to stand for my own peace of mind and my principles of respecting others, in this case respecting what others have created.

    Knowing that every bit of a product has been made by someone, who holds the copyright i.e. from the brushes or the vectors used to create a texture in Gimp, the sculpts, the meshes to the fonts used to write a text etc and because I know this, when I purchase an item, I give the responsability to care about those copyrights to the seller and to the grid where I bought it.

    For me personally to not need to worry, if something I have acquired is stolen, gives me peace of mind. But because there is not much that can be purchased, I pick up Freebies around and feel uncomfortable.

    I hear often people arguing that there are many creators of high quality full perm freebies in Opensim and I wonder about such argument. Yes, there are some high quality creators who have made their stuff from scratch. Like Aine Cohime, Linda Kellie, Taarna Wells, Selea Core. Imperator Janus, who I believe created his mesh trees with the tree-tool online, the owner of the Ignus grid who builds beautiful mesh constructions and there are few who have not made their free meshes, but respect the TOS of the 3d download sites, writing the url to the download page in the Description.

    Might give some more, but considering and in relation to the big amount of freebies around Opensim, that many allround specialists, we dont have here. Single persons, who can make sculpts, meshes, scripts, create textures from scratch and build? Even in SL there are not tons of those allround specialists. Successful and well known designers work in teams from specialists together to bring high quality products. In SL one can also buy licenses of pieces one can not make Oneself. Not in Opensim. I got licenses from full perms creators in SL to use in Opensim, but their TOS dont allow to give derivates for free. That means, who gives away full perm items for free must be such an allround talent. Except textures, one can get them online but I have never seen that a freebie gives credits to the original texture creator. I am talking about respect, not about DMCA.

    Shall I receive the “then go back to SL” I will answer, no, because I want to pay for legal items in Opensim, but I will not and can not afford to pay the SL prices for land.

    And because I appreciate the free = freedom in Opensim and my friends, I try to support it as much as I can.The OsGrid and Metropolis are not my home grids, but I donate now and then to them. Also when a DJ has performed for me and didnt let me pay, instead I donated always the payment to their home grid, either osgrid or metropolis. And because I am glad that there are creators who give legal items for free, I have donated to Linda Kellie and Selea Core, not big amounts, but as much as I would have spent in SL to buy the items (not enough to Linda Kellie, I downloaded her meshes oar, its the only way to produce mesh freebie items, i cant make own meshes)
    .
    And I am not the only one who would prefer to pay for legal content than to collect “insecure” freebies. Most Kitely members I know, purchase gladly in the Marketplace. I believe that it is possible to have both: the commercial products and the legal free.

    • iidripdiamonds diamond

      Thank you for posting this Isis I agree with this post. I support zangrids new system I am shop owner there and it is a great thing for me to expand my content and make currency. As a grid owner myself I believe and have great content for my residents even if you have to shop for it. If it is quality you want you will pay to have it. It is each grid owners decision how to operate there grid and if a lot of people would see that instead of kicking people or making them feel bad because they won’t give there items away free I think opensim would be much better. I think this program is great and will open more doors for content creators to venture out in opensim. I am thankful for the creators who have donated free mesh items but I am also in favor of this system as well.

    • Well said Isis….and you know I for one appreciate you being in and enjoying Opensim.

      This has been a sad reflection, this comment thread, where some strange animosities have risen, where people who should be together and strong instead show much divisiveness. There are much worse things to worry about, this is a fact.

      This divisiveness has come from the commercial opensim grids, imo, and people might consider a cause and effect here. Free opensim (which I agree is much like what you say, to me) has been around since the beginning, and certainly before the commercial grids (whom have been proliferating) have enabled the hypergrid.

      People out here had to mostly create their own stuff and some have excelled in this, the “quality” argument to me is not really fair…we all know there is for sale content that could likewise be consider less than quality, so it is the case with free content. It is a circular argument that keeps being thrown around and skews the truth of things.

      Personally I get free things because I can’t build very well and am very, very poor. I am very grateful to those who offer such free things, and to land also. Their generosity is a wonderful thing, and we just saw more generosity at the Robstock over the past weekend.

      There are some many people who have goodwill at heart, that the basics should draw us together. We are all one hypergrid family to me.

      I have some KCs I have collected so I do buy from the Kitely market when the offer includes a KC option and is exportable, to me personally it has to be stuff I can use wherever I go, I will never put all my eggs in one basket anymore, that was a mistake I learned and a good lesson.

      So for me, also, I want OARs of my work/pastime stuff I do saved to my own computer, and likewise with IARs…this gives me the freewill to explore options if I so desire. ME, not some person who runs a grid whose vision is the one which I must adhere, via TOS or otherwise.

      I am very much against the closed commercial use of Opensim, I find it a corrupting influence and it is antithetical to what I believe, and so do many others I call my peers. Just the stress inherent in coddling creators to the never ending need to get more people, to have more events, to usually say something like “we are the best”…

      I have no issue with people who like, enjoy, or make money for whatever reasons in the commercial iterations that Opensim allows as long as the hyperverse is a part of it.

      What I don’t like is commercial people saying opensim will dwindle to nothing without commercial like help…people should keep in mind the free meta was here before they were and we were doing just fine….what it means is that on some level the commercial types recognize this, and that it is where the growth is, and the root of why they joined with hypergrid enabled.

      I don’t think many of them want to be “like” SL…it is the freedoms to be different that Opensim gives us all that forms the basis of our desires to be a part of it.

      So I personally don’t mind the commercialism as long as I continue to have the choice to use it or just do my own little free things…I think the root of the issue is of some seeing examples of the old slippery sloop…and in some regards this is very true.

      So do we all embrace change without coercion, or do some wish to allow other people to control their pastime, whether that be commercial or free.

      But in any case, since many in OSG help to test new versions we should be hearing about any further restrictions from core already, so many that will work out ok. We won’t fully know until a production release is out (or whatever it is called when “stable release”) where people start using it all over.

      What bothers me is all the infighting but I also see that as good, it shows differences in thoughts that shows our freedoms are doing very well, it is the closed commercial grids where there are no real freedoms, one must do as the grid owners want or you are out, this has been shown over and over again, and even to SL.

      I suggest we all be free to do as we want, within civilized thought of course, and understand that is shows we are free to do so, and that is what we need to preserve.

      • Mine thank you for adding your thoughts. I feel between the lines that you are worried, commerce could break our freedom. I understand that well and I wish I could tell you, but I dont know what will happen, what will change, if there was more commerce in Opensim.

        The question is, if there will be enough who decide to work together than to fight against each other. You are right, that the discussion goes down the road, when there is discussed only over two extreme points of view. I get the impression, the position its built in stone, no matter what the other says. This does not help much to build a community of united people who all want the same: To bring opensim forwards and to enjoy what we already have in here.

        I try to see both sides, sometimes it is not easy for me to understand (to feel) their position. Seldom say the arguments what is really behind them, but I try. And I am glad, when there is acceptance for those who need and want something different than what we personally want. Specially glad that you accept that there are people who have the right or the need to try to sell products. I tell you how I mean it. The other day I met a person from Venezuela, you know how hard life its over there now, where people pay 150$ for a dozen eggs. He is new, he came to Opensim in the hope to learn to be able to sell what he makes. He said, if he could make 30-50 US$ a month, he could sell the dollars in the “streets market” and get enough for the living of the family. He was in SL and noticed, as he said, he has no chances to sell anything there, because the market its very competitive and many have so good skills. So he is learning now and hopes.

        The point is, we dont know, why people decide to be merchants. As we dont know the reasons why someone wants to keep it free. I also have only a certain max amount of money I can spend in my virtuality. At a time, when I could afford more, because I sold products in SL; i bought many materials for which I got the licenses/permissions to use in Opensim. So I seldom need to purchase anything to wear.

        And because we dont know the reasons, there should be no fights about free or commercial. There should be space for both. And for many more diversities, because we all are part of one community.

        Though I agree with you, to fear that most items around us, could be “sealed” and our creativity which depends on open sourced materials to produce free items could suffer the lack of materials. Well we all could work together that this doesnt happens. We could hunt intensively for CC0 materials to bring to Opensim to make the community reach in open source items. Or members work together to find helpers to convert legal material to make it suitable for Opensim and so on. The community working together, we could achieve, that more ideas and initiatives appear.

        • Well said again, Isis-)

          Yes, I worry, and my worries are reflections of others worries. As oopsee has said a bit on in this thread.

          I worry also about what core will be like soon, and I worry about all the egos rampant nowadays.

          What I do see is a bit of regurgitation of the same or similar we have read from those in closed grids. If anything, if the commercial types would stretch their imaginations past the old SL song and dance, and more fully embrace what opensim offers, they would find their lives much more pleasant.

          And to those grids who have, such as 3rg (whom I helped in small ways to understand enabling hypergrid better) and such as TangleGrid who runs hyperverse events (tho not embraced as much as I would rather see), to free meta places like Francogrid who has offered not only unique avatars but full perm and free…they love to see people play with the parts creating yet more uniqueness.

          Commercial grid type people generally are more grid centric than the free meta. Many hypergrid around for free things and few join in major Hypergrid events, or try throwing them themselves…that are different and unique. They miss out on what this all really means, this hyperverse.

          They neglect to understand fully that the free content they take that makes their spaces better and nicer comes with a likewise feeling of sharing and giving…the closed grids don’t get to have what the hypergrid enabled ones do.

          And a big thank you is always nice when people get free stuff. That is more than anything important to do…unlike in commercial grids where people feel good when others like their content enough to spend money on it.

          And there is so much more!

          Again, however, those who think we need commerce to go forward are deluding themselves, and by saying and thinking such things they miss the point entirely.

          People should also be quite aware of those people who say such things, something Doug at MOSES also said, and some that a few inworldz people have been saying for years.

          The people who do such things are not your (not meaning you Isis) friends, they seek to sow discord and often get what they want, as in some of the comments here can attest.

          There are people who think others are their friends but are not. They would rather believe such things than those who speak the truth, because the others prey and say what they want to hear…nobody likes to hear the truth…or many don’t.

          So I will continue to do my thing and watch how things go. It is possible it will all turn out for the best, we just don’t know for sure yet.

          The fact tho is the hyperverse is growing, I see signs of this in all sorts of ways.

  • that does it. im posting my fav song for all this drama on this one article.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SASH2UH2qUs

    • Chris, please do not take offense, I mean this in the most respectful way. You need to tell your psychiatrist they need to change your medications. Keep in mind it is what you tell them and being honest about that is important to your getting better.

      • none taken. i do need to get on something else, some of the side effects to cipralex is starting to get worse. And yes i realize im slowing starting to be old hothead immature me again. But that song above is awesome, love hard dance music.

        • here how about a lighter song for ya from HeadHunterz and WildStylez
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ascr8_DnLfc

          • Da Hayward

            you got any jim steinman?

        • The thing is that sometimes we all should maybe step back and reevaluate things. Personally, as I grow older, I have been giving much more thought to human beings and the sad state of things that human beings do.

          This is both part of what we all do here, because we are humans behind our avatars, but also separate from all this as there are some things that speak to needing to keep the humanity in us.

          As a basic thing.

          I do notice the things you say and also notice you have much to give, you have talents, but often they are offset by the negative things you say to people…and the cursing is very sad to me, that is never needed.

          Ask them if some other medication can be tried, I know that many people try one different one after another and combinations to find the right cocktail to work. But I feel strongly that one much be honest with those providers, they simply are hog-tied without that.

          Kinda personal stuff here but that’s ok, maybe others can take something positive from it.