Land area, active users down due to reporting issues

OpenSim lost land area and active users this month — on paper, at least — as one large commercial grid did not report its stats this month, and another grid suffered an outage.

The total OpenSim land area fell by 442 regions this month, to reach 72,978 standard region equivalents. This is the third month in a row that that saw drops in both the total reported OpenSim land area and total active users.

This month’s losses were due to an outage on Virtual ABDL Grid and to the Great Canadian Grid not publishing its stats this month.

Last month, Great Canadian Grid had 748 regions, 5,450 registered users, and 1,162 active users, so it more than covered the loss in area, and was responsible for a good chunk of the loss in active users. If those stats had been available, the public OpenSim grids would have gained land area this month.

The grid deliberately decided not to publish its numbers.

“You know where my feelings are when it comes to stats and competition,” grid founder Roddie Macchi told Hypergrid Business.

Last month, InWorldz also announced that it would no longer be publishing statistics, so as to avoid being unfairly compared to other grids.

InWorldz had been seeing steady declines in all its number for the past year.

The Great Canadian Grid showed increases last month — but it hasn’t fared as well for the year as a whole. At this time last year, the grid had 1,162 regions, and 1,626 active users, for a net drop of 414 regions, or more than a third of its land area. Its active users fell by 464 over the past year.

Meanwhile, in land gains, newly-launched Furry World added a total of 1,049 standard region equivalents to our stats this month. Kitely grew by the equivalent of 318 regions, and OpenSim Life by 92 regions.

OSgrid continues to be the grid with largest land area at 22,594 regions, followed by Kitely with 15,534 regions and Metropolis with 6,042 regions.


Land area of OpenSim’s public grids, in standard region equivalents. (Hypergrid Business data.)

OpenSim is a free, open source virtual world platform that’s compatible with the Oculus Rift. It allows people with no technical skills to quickly and cheaply create virtual worlds, and then teleport to other virtual worlds. Those with technical skills can run OpenSim worlds on their own servers for free, while commercial hosting starts at less than $5 a region — compared to $300 a region for the same land in Second Life.

A list of hosting providers is here. Download the recommended Firestorm viewer here. And find out where to get content for your OpenSim world or region here.


When it comes to general-purpose social grids, especially closed grids, the rule of thumb is: the busier, the better. People looking to make new friends look for grids that already have the most users. Merchants looking to sell content will go to the grids with the most potential customers. Event organizers looking for the biggest audience… you get the idea.

Top 25 most popular grids this month:

  1. OSgrid: 3,697 active users (HG
  2. Metropolis: 3,343 active users (HG
  3. AllCity: 1,621 active users (HG
  4. DigiWorldz: 1,575 active users (HG
  5. Island Oasis: 1,476 active users (HG Oasis)
  6. Kitely: 1,248 active users (HG
  7. Lost Paradise: 1,049 active users (HG
  8. Genesis MetaVerse: 1,021 active users (HG
  9. Craft World: 1,020 active users (HG
  10. Virtual-EPI: 653 active users (HG event planners int)
  11. Exo-Life: 653 active users (HG
  12. DreamNation: 611 active users
  13. Eureka World: 596 active users (HG
  14. FrancoGrid: 470 active users (HG
  15. YrGrid: 461 active users (HG
  16. ZanGrid: 444 active users (HG
  17. OpenSim Life: 429 active users (HG
  18. Dynamic Worldz: 423 active users (HG
  19. Logicamp: 406 active users (HG
  20. EdMondo: 376 active users (HG
  21. 3rd Rock Grid: 348 active users (HG
  22. Nextlife World: 326 active users (HG
  23. Neverworld: 317 active users (HG
  24. Anettes Welt: 314 active users (HG
  25. The Public World: 292 active users (HG

Virtual ABDL Grid was not on the list this month due to an outage. Last month, it had 415 OpenSim active users. InWorldz and the Great Canadian Grid would likely both have been on this list if they had published their numbers.

Eureka World, an education-focused grid, was also down 245 active users compared to last month, OSgrid was down by 134 users, Island Oasis was down by 125, and Kitely was down by 122.

The biggest gainers this month were OpenSim Life, which nearly doubled its active users to 429, AllCity, which gained 182, and Neverworld, which opened a fashion district and gained 138 active users. Other gainers included Logicamp, with 132 more actives, and Genesis Metaverse, with 106 new active users.

Kitely Market lists over 9,000 products

There are currently 9,400 product listings at the Kitely Market, which contain 18,026 product variations, 13,346 of which are sold with the export permission.

Kitely has delivered to a total of 191 OpenSim grids to date.

Growth in exportable and non-exportable content on the Kitely Market. (Kitely data.)

Ever since Kitely turned on the hypergrid export functionality, exportable content has been growing at a much faster rate than non-exportables, as merchants increasingly become comfortable to selling to the hypergrid.

However, non-hypergrid grids can also accept Kitely Market deliveries.


Gloebits crossed the 200,000 Gloebits transaction volume mark this past month, to reach a new all-time high of 425,540 Gloebits in transactions, which is the equivalent of US $1,702.

Gloebits also added 124 user accounts in April.

Gloebits transactions and user account figures. (Gloebits Data.)

3rd Life to host car race this weekend

3rd Life grid will host a Car Race starting at 12:00 p.m. Pacific time on Saturday, May 20 at the Raceway Region. The race is open to local and hypergrid residents, and because it will coincide with the Armed Forces Day race, there will be different tanks and a hum V that can be used for racing, 3rd Life grid owner Tommy Seetan told Hypergrid Business.

“We have four races that day where the winner of the first three races will race in the forth race to see who is first, second and third place winners and they will get a trophy and there name up on the winners boards,” he said.

All cars will have same script for fairness. (Image courtesy David Kariuki.)

Each trophy will be a standard cup trophy with the winner’s name, date of race and place they come from. All the race vehicles will have a similar script to keep the race fair.

The hypergrid address is

Logicamp opts for Podex currency

Logicamp has decided to go with Podex to provide its in-world currency, grid owner Didier Preudhomme told Hypergrid Business.

The grid suffered a catastrophic ransomware attack last fall, and is in the process of rebuilding and restoring its brand.

“You can go to the sandbox to create new objects and then rent a plot in a frequented place to put them on sale,” Preudhomme said. “You can export them, print them in 3D or put them on sale in Second Life or the Kitely Market or export your objects on another grid.”

Creators can use items from Sandbox and the Free Zone 1 and 2 to build and decorate their creations. (Image courtesy Logicamp.)

The hypergrid address for the Sandbox is

The grid has also repaired the password recovery feature but is advising members to create a new avatar.

Podex, Gloebits, and self-operated currencies are currently the three main options for commercial grids looking to create an in-world economy. Podex provides the infrastructure that allows each grid to have its own currency symbol, and then allows users to trade currency between different grids. However, Podex currencies are not hypergrid-enabled, and cannot be used for shopping on foreign grids like Gloebits can.

OutWorldz now tracking grids

OutWorldz owner Fred Beckhusen is now tracking up time for OpenSim grids and the list is available from the Known Grid Space database. It currently lists 278 grids of which 37 are hypergrid-enabled mini-grids created using the easy-to-use DreamWorld OpenSim installer. (Read our review here.)

Online grids are checked every hour while offline grids are checked once every four hours.

The data is gathered using the Hyperica grid crawler and the Dreamworld version of Opensim’s Dynamic DNS and diagnostics system.

You can also add your grid to the list here by submitting the loginURI and a short description.


Eight new grids were added to our database this month, including Chimerus, Umina, BDSM Community, DreamWorld Kids, Outworldz Pirateland HG, DreamWorld Ayla Vu, WestWorld Outworldz, and Vconsult.

The following 16 grids were suspended this month: 5DGrid Quest, Ancient Rome, AU Metaverse, AviWorlds, EMS GRID, Greater Ireland Grid, METU OGEB, Moonlight Grid, Open Island, OpenSim Pride 2017, Phaandoria Grid, Rock Grid, Sector 17, Tertiary Grid, vmetu, WedjLok

Grids that have been suspended for more than two months will be marked as closed. If your grid isn’t on the active grids list, and not on the suspended list, it may have been marked closed when it shouldn’t be. Please let us know.

And if there’s a public grid we’re not tracking, please email us at [email protected]. There’s no centralized way to find OpenSim grids, so if you don’t tell us about it, and Google doesn’t alert us, we won’t know about it.

By “public,” we mean grids that allow hypergrid visitors, or have a website where people can register for or request accounts.

In addition, if a grid wants to be included in the monthly stats report and the most active and largest grid lists, it needs to have a stats page that shows the number of unique 30-day logins, and the total number of regions on the grid. In order for the grid not to be under-counted, 30-day active users stat should include hypergrid visitors, and the land area should be in the form of standard region equivalents, square meters, or square kilometers.

May Region Counts on the Top 40 Grids

The list below is a small subset of existing OpenSim grids. We are now tracking a total of 1,238 different publicly-accessible grids, 280 of which were active this month, and 207 of which published their statistics.

All region counts on this list are, whenever available, in terms of standard region equivalents. Active user counts include hypergrid visitors whenever possible.

Many school, company or personal grids do not publish their numbers.

The raw data for this month’s report is here. A list of all active grids is here. And here is a list of all the hypergrid-enabled grids and their hypergrid addresses, sorted by popularity. This is very useful if you are creating a hyperport.

You can see all the historical OpenSim statistics here, including polls and surveys, dating all the way back to 2009.

Below are the 40 largest grids by total land area, in terms of standard region equivalents.

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David Kariuki

David Kariuki is a technology journalist who has a wide range of experience reporting about modern technology solutions. A graduate of Kenya's Moi University, he also writes for Cleanleap, and has previously worked for Resources Quarterly and Construction Review. Email him at [email protected].

145 Responses

  1.' Talla Adam says:

    Thank you for the stats, David. Nice job! I would like to note that my own Grid Search site on Metaverse Traveller is also grappling with the lack of data being displayed. I wrote ” Ranking Change (May 12, 2017) Recently some grids stopped displaying part or all their stats. This stops Grid Search from showing every single grid and, where limited numbers are shown, the ranking will be based on the highest daily login’s or the active traffic stats which ever gives the highest number. Thus, the most active grids should still appear at the top of listings. Those grids that don’t appear may be quite active but hidden due to the owner’s unwillingness to display the numbers. You have to draw your own conclusions to that but suffice it to say the free Metaverse is bigger than we can determine at present.”

    That basically means the Dark Metaverse just got bigger and those grids that sink into the darkness get less attention than those who have no problem being part of the open Metaverse and revelling their activity stats.

  2.' Da Hayward says:

    Once again good Job David and congratulations to those grids showing a increase in numbers and new grids in these stats.

  3.' Roddie Macchi says:

    To be honest…marias numbers are wrong…we didnt lose over 400 lol…thats impossible…but what I did do is get rid of the stats survey…and I”ll explain why…because I came into this as a sole owner opening my grid to friends and family…thats all…people came people go…its opensim…but when it comes a point of people having to look for a better stat grid to make themselves feel secure…then its time to look at oneself and not so much into what makes them money or what makes their alter ego feel better. You really need to be happy where you are and stick by it….support the grid your on with your friends and family…don’t worry about where everyone else is…who cares….be happy where YOU are…not where they are…I gave up stats to Maria not because I don’t like HGB but because I don’t agree with relying on stats to make one happy….It got to a point where even I was looking at stats to see where who was where…how stupid is that lol…thats when i realized that my dream of owning a grid became like everyone else…a competitive grid comparing who has how many lol….who cares lol….I love my grid…people who are here love the grid….and really….thats all that matters in life…if someone told you Washington was better than Ohio…would you believe them…or stay where you were cause you loved Washington…lol…think about it….don’t let others and HGB stats make your judgement…do your homework on your own…visit grids…find one you like and stick to it…AVN is gone now because of people always looking at grass is greener…and now people are saying Damn I miss AVN..well its your own fault….support the grid you love…period.

    •' Da Hayward says:

      Well I like the stats HGB provides, but you are right in that the “best” grid is the one each individual like’s.
      We are all different and have different likes and dislikes. Roddie what you said about look about, make your own judgement is the best bit of advice one can be given.

    •' iidripdiamonds diamond says:

      Great post I agree support the grid you love I do not submit my stats any longer I focused on the people who want to be with me and having a good time in open sim.

      • David says:

        Hi, please let us know how we can improve on the stats and/or reporting for your grid.

        •' iidripdiamonds diamond says:

          Well David it would help by informing me were my stats need to be sent and what monthly deadline you are on for example Maria was sending out emails prior to the month of her stat reports months back. My grid has not had stats on here in over 3 months.Not that I care I am just responding to your reply.

    •' Talla Adam says:

      This is the most blinkered opinion of stats I have read anywhere. What has stats got to do with making people happy? Collected stats give people a view of the open Metaverse, its size and where people gather most. In your own hypocritical words telling people what they should do and “don’t let others and HGB stats make your judgement… do your homework on your own…visit grids.” So, when you have finished doing what you take exception to what HGB does, which is inform the public what grids are out there and how busy they are, then perhaps you will see the real value in presenting the collected stats and listing the grids. It helps people find a grid worth visiting and being included in that list help grids gain new users and, moreover, attracts more people to the open Metaverse and Hypergrid in general.

      When HB does a grid survey they get a very good response from all over because grid owners like to get featured. It helps them gain new users and new users spend money in their malls and they rent land that helps keep them afloat.

      It’s a good thing to support the grid you love and call home but it’s also a fantastic experience traveling the Hypergrid getting to know new places and people. That is what grid lists help people do.

    • David says:

      Roddie, please let us know how we can improve on the stats and/or reporting for your grid.

  4. ““You know where my feelings are when it comes to stats and competition,” grid founder Roddie Macchi told Hypergrid Business. – Roddie Macchi”

    His feelings are right where mine are (if we took his feelings to be this horribly FauxNews worthy butchering of his true feelings about stats to be true – which I see below he has clearly stated otherwise), stats are useless but we all know that without them HGB would have nothing left to report on except whatever virtual reality glasses crap came out this month. Roddie’s members, including myself, support his decision and I hope that other grids have the balls to follow suit and end useless stats keeping and finally work together as a community instead of this petty competition that SL (and HGB) drilled into us – and we all see where SL is headed.

    •' Da Hayward says:

      Stats Are useless?
      Come on get real.
      If you don’t like HGB why read it and comment?

      • if you aren’t an active daily member of GCG, like Maria (and probably David) aren’t then why report on it? See that logic doesn’t work that way either eh.

        •' Da Hayward says:

          Ok I dont belong to GCG either but through comments in HGB I am told they are a pretty good grid.
          That is no reason to Dog on Maria or David as I said before if the stats get under you skin so much why read the article and comment seems a bit like a Trump supporter buying the Washington Post

          • Da Hayward said “Ok I dont belong to GCG either but through comments in HGB I am told they are a pretty good grid. That is no reason to Dog on Maria or David as I said before if the stats get under you skin so much why read the article and comment seems a bit like a Trump supporter buying the Washington Post”

            you mean the article that clearly attacked Roddie and GCG? Why did they have to mention GCG at all? It is simply a way to get hits from people, and yes it’s working, but it is the strategy of HGB to do so at the expense of others always, or so it appears… so is it wrong not to call them out on it?

            You replied to Roddie, who was the first to respond, and said he was justified to have an opinion “Well I like the stats HGB provides, but you are right in that the “best” grid is the one each individual like’s. We are all different and have different likes and dislikes. Roddie what you said about look about, make your own judgement is the best bit of advice one can be given.”

            So, why are you “dogging on me” for commenting about the article since you did and have. I have as much right to disagree with it as you have to agree with it.

          •' Da Hayward says:

            yes you do I agree with that.
            The article reports stats that are forwarded to HGB. It has done since I have been following HGB.
            I’m not dogging on you as a such, your comment I am as I say to me it is being just totally bitter.

          • ok, you come out of the gate jumping on me for having an opinion… and I’m bitter?

          •' Da Hayward says:

            Ok lets bury the hatchet.
            My Apologies

          • LOL agreed (mine too), but it was just getting fun

          •' Da Hayward says:

            True but getting hungry in RL
            and if I don’t eat I get grumpier LOL

          • saves his “Guardians of the Galaxy” memes for another day 🙂

          •' Da Hayward says:

            I don’t know Winter. it seems a lot of people focus on quantity over quality. personally I’d rather have a handful of good people instead of a lot of trouble makers. So although stats or numbers do give a basic indication I do not think they necessarily reflect a quality of a grid. But I could be wrong

          • I totally agree and you are right (which is the point Roddie tries to make with GCG), it is the “quality” of the people on GCG that keeps me there now 99% of my time inworld and not the fact there are hundreds of regions I never visit. I’m not saying there are other grids out there who aren’t as great as GCG and I’m not saying GCG is perfect but it’s good for me (the consumer) and isn’t that what’s important.

    •' Peter says:

      “I hope that other grids have the balls to follow suit and end useless stats keeping and finally work together as a community instead of this petty competition that SL (and HGB) drilled into us – and we all see where SL is headed.”

      Just by offering land or regions for rental, you are already competing, regardless of whether HGB posts stats about you or not. If you are a grid trying to gain new customers and visitors you are going to be competing with hundreds of other grids trying to do the same.

      It’s hilarious that you think HGB is responsible for that. Businesses compete! It’s what they do. Great Canadian Grid, InWorlds, etc are not non-profit charities, they are businesses, and they are going to be treated as such by the media, no matter how much they want to childishly whine and cry about it. If anything HGB is bringing all of those grids closer together by publishing stats, because they show how collectively healthy the hypergrid is. If the stats were not reported for any grid whatsoever, we wouldn’t have a clear picture of how the Metaverse as a whole is doing and growing.

      If grids don’t want to be treated as what they are – businesses – they should become non-profit and offer land for free. Otherwise, they should just shut up and finally accept the realities of the business world like an adult. If you sell services for money, the media is going to report about you whether you like it or not.

      • Peter said “If grids don’t want to be treated as what they are – businesses – they should become non-profit and offer land for free. Otherwise, they should just shut up and finally accept the realities of the business world like an adult. If you sell services for money, the media is going to report about you whether you like it or not.”

        the thing was Roddie actually DID shut up by no longer participating in petty stats debates… and for that you are saying he’s childish? I don’t know but he looks like one of the only mature grid owners here who choose his customers over his ego. But hey what do I know, I only spend about $750 a year in his grid and $0 in all of the other OS grids combined, but meh, I’m only a customer.

        •' Peter says:

          That’s fine – grids are private entities, they have no obligation to disclose that information to the media. When I said it’s childish, I’m referring to the grids that publish stats on their public website and then complain that a journalist merely re-shared that publicly available information elsewhere. If grids really find that bothersome (they really shouldn’t, it’s free publicity, but hey…), the only logical thing to do is to simply stop sharing the stats, as opposed to continuing to do so and whine that a journalist merely did what a journalist is supposed to do.

          However, customers like transparency. If you are a business, it makes business sense to be open with your customers. It helps you build a relationship with them and make them feel like they are part of something bigger. Your customers want to support you and know how you’re doing. If your grid hasn’t been doing well, letting the public know is NOT necessarily a bad thing – your biggest supporters will see that as a motivation to start spreading the word and evangelize for you and help you grow. Grid owners should learn to make the best out of a not-so-convenient situation. That’s where the phrase “No publicity is bad publicity” comes from!

          • “When I said it’s childish, I’m referring to the grids that publish stats on their public website and then complain that a journalist merely re-shared that publicly available information elsewhere.”

          • Why do you insist on liking all your own posts?

          • LOL I wondered if anyone would notice. It proves my point that “statistics” can be manipulated (but clearly only 1 person out of how many? bothered to even question it). Truth be told in the MONTHS I have been doing it only TWO people (on here, FB and G+) even noticed and questioned it – you being one of them. It proves that people don’t really care where the “stats” come from just that they look good.

    • David says:

      Winter, nothing wrong with those feelings, but you can always let us know how we can improve on stats and/or reporting for your grid. Thank you.

      • The stats can not be improved. Stats can be easily manipulated to serve the grid named. I know someone above commented on ATEK and their stats, a member of ATEK noted that while stats are important (to them) they can be easily altered to favour the grid. Stats are a dated system of, as Roddie said, they are not necessary to make one happy. All of this debating came from the mere mention of GCG and their decision not to provide stats anymore. As I stated in a previous thread “We, the true supporters and members of the GCG did not join it because it had more people than Grid B or Grid C. We joined it for the very opposite of what grid stats foster and that is a sense of community and family. I’ve been on… I think somewhere around a dozen OS grids now and GCG/Roddie is the first one that actually is transparent and open with their/his members.”

        As I stated in another response “Why mention GCG at all and dig at Roddie’s decision not to participate in the childish “my grid is better than yours” game that HGB fuels with these ridiculous statistics articles. It would take someone about 10 minutes with a $2 calculator from Dollarama to simply remove his grid from the calculations and re-calculate the “growth” or “shrink” of the OS grid (like anyone really cares in the end).

        • David says:

          Well, Roddie explained why he chose that decision “I gave up stats to Maria not because I don’t like HGB but because I don’t agree with relying on stats to make one happy”…It is more of personal thing I think, and am not debating it here but asking for some insights from everyone else, including you, on how stats can be improved.

          You see, for everyone reading the “fall” in stats this month, the most obvious question would be “why?” That’s why we try to look at why the stats fell if they do or why they rose if they do; and for this month we just found out that it is because GCG didn’t report plus one or two other reasons. For an explanation, that’s why the name came up. It was not to try and highlight it in a negative light. We don’t do that for any single grid.

          And..I would like to see GCG stats back again, may be that’s why I can’t give up mentioning the grid in my article, you see 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

          I see your conclusion that “stats can not be improved” and “Stats can be easily manipulated to serve the grid named.” True, but HB relies only on stats given by grids including from their grid stats pages and what they directly send via email. I know stats reporting can be improved, at least, especially on errors side (not manipulation). We are trying to, everyday. That’s why I am asking you how we can do that.

          • if you removed grids and based the percentages on the remaining grids there wouldn’t be a “fall in statistics” because the statistics that would reflect the fall were omitted. I think the debate here is founded on your comments concerning Roddie’s decisions as a grid owner. You could have simply stated “The following grids: x, y, z, have chosen to no longer provide their statistics for inclusion” instead of making it seem like Roddie wasn’t being nice to the other kids in the sandbox.

            You can’t make “improvements” when there are grid owners out there who may be manipulating the statistics you are accumulating. It’s like in the real world how they report the “hundreds of deaths associated with the influenza virus” when in reality they discovered that “any” winter related illness or injury was being included in the statistics (I believe it was CTV news in Canada that exposed the erroneous results). It skewed the numbers and made them worthless but media continues to exploit the false statistics as a means of creating news for readers.

            David said: “You see, for everyone reading the “fall” in stats this month, the most obvious question would be “why?” ”

            But do you actually know why? No, sometimes it’s global events, the weather, holiday weekends, internet access, power outages, price reductions or increases, the state of the economy, and on and on, you can never actually pinpoint the reason for changes (except when someone omits their data and you don’t adjust the outcome of the stats to exclude the missing data).

            I think another question is does anyone really notice? I’m biased in that I could care less is 500 or 500,000 people use OpenSim but that’s just me, again the comments I made at the beginning had nothing to do with “overall stats” but rather the way it was reported about persons who chose not to participate. It then grew into a long ongoing discussion about statistics in general and their inaccuracies.

          • David says:

            It is true stats can get manipulated from the sources, but is it true that this can happen for long without being known? I doubt it does in a community like this. Still, “improvements” can be made if everyone chose to report factual stats.

            Well, factors causing “fall” can be very diverse and many, true, but it won’t take long to check out and see unusual trends month after month. If you are able to follow up and through, it is easy to know when and if major power and internet outages affecting this and that grid happen, or may be if and when there are unusual price changes; even major virus attacks affecting grids get to be known via community news channels and we go back and ask who was affected and the extent of it. If those factors are minor or completely missing in focus for that month, one would still ask the question “why.”

            Really, for trust issues, it is not like we check stats one minute and then “think” only for one second to come up with any reason. I can tell you for sure it is not easy. Sometimes I have had to miss reasons why stats rose or dropped in a month and it takes days to find out, and Maria’s intervention, to offer insights about how to find trends in that huge amount of data, for instance suggesting that I separately group up month after month after month data to decipher trends and things that happen seasonally. Yes, sometimes separate charts get drawn to see trends in data. It is not something we look up quickly and say yes, the reason “must” be this and that. NO! Even if there were outages, we would ask how many grids were affected, which grid etc.

  5.' Didier says:

    I’m very sorry but the grid is closed today ….

  6.' 1derworld says:

    Even a X-Box or iphone can be a server, Just because it sits in a data center or garage don’y change a thing the hardware is very much all the same.
    And connection speed depends on your wallet.

    • Agreed, someone on an Xbox grid deserves as much acknowledgement as someone with 20 servers after all the spirit of opensim is supposed to be free creativity. Your value should be based on your hard work (and agreed, continued dedication) and not on the size of your wallet. My 5 cents since pennies no longer exist here 🙂

      •' Da Hayward says:

        I agree.
        This is what I like about open sim, in my view a small grid with a handful of regions compared to a large grid with 1000’s of regions is just as important.
        Open sim is about creating your world, the way you want it. It should never be a competition.

        •' TanGLe Grid says:

          Of course it should. I am not saying that it shouldn’t. What I am saying is that too many ppl get burned by so many fly-by-night grids that grids like ours have to work harder to make them understand we are not that other grid. We are professionals.

          •' Da Hayward says:

            Yes I totally agree with you. there are definitely fly-by night grids out there.
            from what I have been told your grid has a fairly good reputation, so your efforts are definitely paying off.
            Unfortunately you are right though there are some real rat bag out fits out there

          • Even so called “reliable” grids can be unreliable. Grids that have several crashes (like when, say, all of the textures on all of the regions are deleted, without ever knowing why), log in issues (where the lag is so bad or the connection is unreliable that the computer finally times out waiting for the grid to respond), and even ones that are run more like a hobby instead of a business (where the money goes in but never comes out) perhaps shouldn’t be counted either then, using your logic, as these are as “unreliable” allegedly as one run from an xbox or telephone (and there isn’t even remotely enough memory to run a grid off a telephone btw).

            Tangle Grid said: ” guess my question to you Winter, would you rent all them regions of yours if you knew you where paying to run off a xbox or a telephone? Knowing you, I don’t think so. You would be the first to be yelling. lol”

            Answer: Not if it ran ok and there were nominal issues… I could care less what the grid is running off of provided that the grid is running smoothly.

            I think first of all the phrase “let the buyer beware” should apply here as it does in any business. If you take Grid A, for example, and it has run for at least a couple years, has over a dozen servers, and over 2,000 members, plus it survived an attack twice and even though it has had issues with crashes it still comes back strong…. versus Grid B, that has just been created, claims to be better than all the rest and is not transparent about issues that happen or anything else except to blame others for their problems… then yes, you are giving your money away if you jump onto the Grid B bandwagon.

      •' TanGLe Grid says:

        I guess my question to you Winter, would your rent all them regions of yours if you knew you where paying to run off a xbox or a telephone? Knowing you, I don’t think so. You would be the first to be yelling. lol

    •' TanGLe Grid says:

      Do you own a grid? Are you saying that it is ok to pay for a region or whatever from someones xbox? or telephone? I guess it could be worse it could be a mouse running around on a wheel server. lol My point is stats are good “if” they are fair and true. Too many cheat just to bring the numbers high enough to be top ten. It seems to be an honest grid is a grid that will not do well. One that is willing to get REAL servers to give the best service and speed. Internet is also important of course.

      •' 1derworld says:

        Yes I own a grid going on 6 yrs now. And who really knows that a Grid uses XBOX or real servers. We all go by the honor system here. Question is who’s honest and who’s not.

      • You do realize that some of the biggest computer and IT companies on the planet started on floppy disk drive computers in someone’s garage right? Everyone has to start somewhere. Why are you knocking the “little guy” so much in this? The “big grids” with the paid servers and the advertising and all that can cheat on their stats just as much as the next guy (and do – in fact they can probably do it better because with their knowledge they can hide it better). I really don’t like how you are being unfairly biased towards the “little guy” with the xbox or the computer with a big hard drive just because you have more money than they do.

        •' TanGLe Grid says:

          I am not knocking anyone that is fair to the customers. If they are getting good services and no down time and they can handle the load of avies, power to them. What I am saying is the ones that cheat and build stat numbers that are not true. Most “NOT ALL” are the temp grids like an iphone or xbox grid, that may do them kinds of things. If someone has that kind of money to toss around for servers to do that, wow…. I use the stats to see how things are going with others. But my question is how can I trust something like that if too many are cheating. I could be wrong and everyone is sooooooo honest… We will see.

          • There are many variables involved that reflect the “trustworthiness” of a grid and its owner. I know of two opensim grids that are “professional” who have padded their numbers in the past for the sake of their appearance in statistics. It’s sad but even “professionals” with “paid servers” do it. You raise the very point though, if some are doing it then the overall stats are not accurate.

  7.' Carlos Loff says:

    If I had half the free time some folks spend hete fighting, my mega-city would be up and running long time ago – Make love not war, guess OS needs mores dungeons and sex-clubs

  8.' Dragon Heart says:

    It can be frustrating thats for sure at times, but just have to keep plodding along so to speak, see what other grids are doing that you dont, or see what they dont do that you can promote that gives you that little edge. A website also says a lot about a grid and keywords (im a php programmer and have done a lot of sites in my day lol) we had a Q&A session once with quite a few and most said they stay away from the “wordpress” grids as most have “free templates” so new members are put off as if using free templates they feel grid owners are less likley to spend money in world if improvements are needed.

    There is a lot “bigger” grids can do as well i for one myself am considering this to help out the smaller grids around as some do have some amazing creators on them, but some also have “personal issues” with us so those wont be put into our project weve got comming up.

    The issue with OpenSim is grids come, grids go no one wants to trust a opensim grid they would rather be in the dieing and really expensive grid that shall not be named because its safer and wont go down or isnt run off as you say a xbox or a personal pc and over crammed with regions just to get numbers up.

    Plus there are as i explained earlier “personal issues” between grid, yes i have people that hate my guts and want to churn me out onto the side street, OpenSim doesnt need that, were all adults behind a screen and keyboard, If OpenSim is to suceed and become what it can become grids need to start gettin along (yea i know easier said than done in most cases).

    Then comes the faking numbers issue, people spend 5 to 10 mins signing uptothe grid with the high numbers, then 5 mins setting up the viewer, then loginto the rid, then spend a further 10 mins setting up viewer preferances then look around the welcome area or wherever they were sent to when the first signed up …… then they look at the map see whats a busy region to take a look tp over to find …… bots, so that person has just wasted a hour setting up for a new grid only to find bots what they going to think, the first thing that comes to my mind is screw this for a lark im off, screw opensim im going back to the other grid that shall not be named lol.

    Then comes another point, some of these grids and not putting them down at all so dont jump on my back for this, have a 2008 feel to them full of freebies that are old and primmy no thought has gone into areas, nothing unique about that grid so again whats people going to think.

    And yes i have a few plans to help promote some grids and will be contacting some grid owners over the next few days to see if they want to be included in this project.

    •' Da Hayward says:

      speaking of ratbag grids lets hope you dont have to sell anything to pay for your plans eh?

  9.' Dragon Heart says:

    ive sent you a email regarding a project thats currently in process, im wanting to help the smaller grids get known there are quite a few out there thats been open a while now and no one really helps the “little guys”

  10.' Arielle says:

    Maybe the best solution to this stats stuff is simply to allow Grids have their numbers be posted anonymously so that those of us interested, can gauge whether Opensim is growing or shrinking, which to me at least is what it is about. Doing it anonymously is better anyway so that there is less temptation to pad them. Personally i don’t really care whether Inwortldz is down, GCG is up, Kitely is holding etc. except to wonder if there if there has been a change in their policies to trigger the change but at the end of the day it really is immaterial.

    • A fair point that I would actually support. If articles like this one are really about “overall statistics” and not the popularity of certain grids then posting statistics with grid names omitted seems fair.

      •' Arielle says:

        I offered the suggestion mostly to David in his quest to find a non-confrontational way to present the stats and as a concession to those grids who are perhaps not happy with their own. Grids whose numbers are growing or staying consistent don’t seem to complain about being included in these articles and I will point out that both Inworldz and GCG did not either during their years of growing.
        Reading David’s article I mostly just note statistics…numbers and some fill in information for people new to Opensim. Nothing there comparing one grid to another that I see which would suggest a competition. Roddie in his post down below even admits that it was he himself who started to look at it from a competitive point of view, but that doesn’t mean we all do. I see quite a number of grids on the above list who are likely content to be the size they are and have no wish to be the next Inworldz or Kitely. As a result they have no issue allowing their stats to be published to help the community get a perspective of both the size and trend of Opensim as well as maybe a little backround as to what they are about.
        Personally the number 1 thing I look for in a grid is transparency. When they start hiding stuff, it is often because there is some dysfunction going on.

        • “Personally the number 1 thing I look for in a grid is transparency. When they start hiding stuff, it is often because there is some dysfunction going on”

          Perhaps the dysfunction is with statistics gathering and not any particular grid? I personally didn’t feel Inworldz was hiding anything when they chose to no longer provide their statistics nor did I think Roddie was.

          Something people need to realize is that grids like InWorldz and Great Canadian Grid are BUSINESSES they are privately owned and have a right to protect their privacy from exploitation. Somewhere along the line people of the general population began to believe they actually have some sort of say in how privately owned businesses choose to operate. I’m not necessarily saying that is the case in your comments, but clearly others seem to think that they have some magical right to know every minute detail about a business and its financial data, et cetera.

        • David says:

          What a suggestion it is. Thank you, Arielle. And you mentioned one greater thing: no grid would like to not get mentioned in the article when things are really looking great for them in terms of their stats improving in a month. Not one! Even me in such a scenario would wonder why they should not want to have their grid names mentioned too. And that complicates the situation because someone wants to be mentioned and another does not and at different instances that are to be featured in one article for the month. Even in an article like this you surely can’t miss something good about CGC but like all grids would want whatever negative left out even if the next sentence says a good thing about grid.

          Again, would we really be great if we promoted OpenSim as a place “without problems” at all? Every grid looking great, no challenges etc? Am sure readers would be very worried if that was to be done. Challenges, and knowledge of or about those challenges, are part of tech life and which make tech in itself to grow because someone (or someone else still) can say, well, how do I overcome that challenge now that it is there.

          Plus you said it again and thank you — everyone could think worse about a grid if stats are being hidden — like why are you hiding stats if at all you say the grid is great? That kind of a situation.

          Yes, people look at stats differently as you said: one might look at them as spelling out competition against him or her, another person might say, well, what is that grid doing to get that kind of attention? which model and strategy has that new grid employed to get so many users in the first month? and so forth. Am convinced there are grids who haven’t managed InWorldz’s and CGC’s numbers yet and they would learn a thing or two from them now that they know they have better numbers than them. I think that’s the sense of a community like this.

          How would the larger community see a decision to hide statistics even from anonymous inclusion? would be the question from me.

  11.' Carlos Loff says:

    I know it is a choice and some creators prefere closed or semi-close, just do not forget one strattegy to attract new people is also to be fully open – Is some nasty creature realky wants to steal something it will hapoen – closed, sem or whatever

  12.' Justin Time says:

    To quietly put things into perspective…
    Tangle Grid has been around since 2012, endured and rose above many disasters grid owners face over the same amount of time.
    Tangle Grid always offers “Things to Do” such as timely Themed Expo’s free to resident contributors to hawk their wares.
    Tangle Grid is very reasonably priced per region, well organized, and easy to navigate.
    Tangle Grid is stagnant. There is lackluster community involvement, even when approached with survey for improvements.

    So what is the problem?
    To be honest, there is no single specific problem with Tangle Grid nor a single problem with the community of loyal residents.
    One could point at lack of advertising, or misdirected resource management, but that would not clear the fog hanging over Tangle Grid as they have advertised aggressively, they have excellent resource management and do run from a datacenter as do other commercial grids.

    Tangle Grid is a unique name. They have NEVER capitalized on their name. If I ask anyone outside of Hypergrid Business if they have ever heard of Tangle, or Tangle Grid, the answer will be a resounding no! Why? Because advertising the mundane is not interesting. You have to be different in some way.

    How about an incentive to bring a friend? Why suffer a move to a new grid where you have no friends? Bring them with you to the Tangle, we appreciate your support with inworld rewards! ( That could be anything the grid owner wants it to be)

    So what about the ones who already did that, do they get left in the cold? No.. they get the same rewards and more. A loyalty incentive is necessary for any grid owner, or they shall face losing people to the “next” great deal.

    Yes, I have a parcel in Tangle, I am NOT an administrator, nor a greeter, nor do I have anything to do with the day to day operation of Tangle Grid. I have eyes, I observe things. And yes, I have my own land on many different grids so I can observe.

    If you only get 10% of 100, you have 10%. If you get 10% of zero, you still have zero. Your choice.

    Want to build your stats the legitimate way? Be different. Be good. Be respectful and kind, but do not give away the farm.

    • I think the biggest thing that affected Tangle’s growth and popularity is that it does not adopt a currency like Podex or Gloebits as their “grid currency”. The problem I heard, and expressed, is that the money goes in but it doesn’t move around or come out and commercialization is the only way to get merchants to settle and remain in your grid. You can advertise all you want but if you are just viewed as a hobby then people are less likely to invest in you, sorry but it’s true.

      • TanGLe allows cash out. And it does have Gloebits enabled shopping areas. The only thing that ‘hurts’ it’s growth is that there is an oversaturation of grids and not all of them good. As for stats, I spent an hour wandering around a grid that boasts over 100 avis online and found 2 people – no matter how far I zoomed out on the map. Stats can be faked – but in general I agree with TG, it’s nice to see that others have issues also.

        • First of all, Tangle just allowed cash out about a month ago after 5 years (and I requested mine but have yet to receive it, it wasn’t much so I haven’t bothered raising a fuss as the ‘virtual credit’ is still on the grid I think). Gloebits enabled shopping areas is not a “grid currency”, if they don’t want to continue to be seen as a “hobby” and more as a “professional” they need to adopt a grid wide currency, but then that might mean paying income taxes.

          But thank you Moonrise! You prove my point exactly, I experienced two grids that I know were padding their numbers. The first grid used “grid owned regions” hidden from access to boost their overall regions (by over 100 regions). The second grid was “testing” their stats and boosted their numbers including those online, I don’t think they ever concluded the “test”. A lot of these “professional” grid owners complain they need stats (for what I don’t know except to inflate their own egos over other grid owners) but if the stats have been embellished then what’s the point? The “professional” grid owners are only working their butts off to compete against ghosts.

          •' TanGLe Grid says:

            Bull. Winter we have had cash outs for over a year. And we sent a notice out that all you needed to do was request it via a notecard and you never did. We only added it to the back office about 4 months ago. But I am not going to say anymore about this. This isn’t the place to do it in.

          • Sorry, I didn’t know to send a “notecard”, I just followed the procedure outlined on your website under Q&A.

            4B) Can I cashout my Tbucks?
            A. Yes you can. You will be able to cashout via your member area. You will be asked to fill in a small form and submit it to Leslie Kling. Then 1 time per week the money will be transferd to your paypal account.

          • I think ‘padding’ might be an understatement when a grid constantly says they have 100+ people online yet you can’t find anyone other than the grid owner. I didn’t even find an NPC . For comparison- even though it has more regions than the grid I visited, and so is more spread out, sim wise – I went to IW, which had 110 people online and on 4 diff regions I went to for shopping I ran into other avis. When I’ve been to TanGLe, and it has their online users listed, I can actually see them on the map at least.

    •' Cinder Biscuits says:

      Couple more issues with Tangle Grid.

      1) Really poor security. Logins are not done over https either on the website or the viewer. From observation, passwords aren’t hashed on the server either since upon registration they mail your password right back to you.
      2) The welcome center there uses an image taken directly from Second Life marketing. You can see it on the front page of the website too. Why on earth would someone bother photoshopping someone else’s promotional images for their own use? See attached:
      3) You have to order a region via Notecard inworld.

      •' TigerHaven says:

        I’d have to agree with you from what I’ve seen just visiting their web panel and creating an account they are using extremely outdated modules which is a big security risk in its own. It seems like another ma and pa setup. Also from the looks of it they may be on a home ISP.

        In the past I’ve visited them they have some cute little projects like their conventions. However always very laggy experience for me.

        Starting to think someone should open a grid auditing service but it should be someone who really knows what they are doing and not these fly by night people.

        • Tanglegrid said: ” As for you being laggy TigerHaven It couldn’t be you… of course not. Always the grids fault. people gezzz” in your defense TigerHaven, Tangle has a reputation for always blaming the members for their own lag it’s never the grid’s fault.

          •' TigerHaven says:

            They probably don’t see lag themselves because since it looks to be on a home based isp they are probably sitting in the other room on the same network so the grid is local to them. They get the best connection!

          • Agreed, and I don’t know how the tech works but I do know if you are directly jacked into a grid like an owner is there’s a pretty good chance you aren’t going to see any lag at all (just like you said). I had that very argument with a couple grid owners in the past ME: “I’m getting a lot of lag” OWNER: “that’s strange, I’m not” ME: “could it be because you are directly connected to the grid”, OWNER: “no, it must be just you”

          • I don’t know where the grid servers are located but I’m in Western Canada, my partner is in Eastern USA and neither of us have lag issues with TanGLe. I have homes in many regions and I find that TanGLE functions as well as, or better than most grids I’ve been on, and FAR better than home based regions/grids that I visit.

          •' 1derworld says:

            May want to get out more, We all say that our home grid is better than any other. Be very surprised how many Grids use some powerful servers in there homes or business unlike the ones rented from some data center that most of the time is old hardware.

          • Typo on my behalf, so I will clarify (and have edited) “I have homes on many grids” — I have a 4×4 RP region in Kitely, 4×4 test region hosted by Oliveira on OSgrid, I currently have two mainland regions in InWorldz, my partner and I have
            a 2×2 in TanGLe, and we have a shop/land in AviUnite, as well. I have previously had land in other grids as well, and have self hosted. My ‘home’ grid is not one singularly established grid but is distributed mainly between IW and Kitely (if time spent is the qualifier) — Point being, I get out enough.

      •' TanGLe Grid says:

        omg lol shakes head. What a punch of drama queens. Leave it to ppl to make things up. BTW we are NOT home based. gezzzz. As for you being laggy TigerHaven It couldn’t be you… of course not. Always the grids fault. people gezzz. lol
        Your point Cinder is it was a free graphic on google and I liked it and used it. simple. Shakes head again.
        BTW what grids do you guys belong to so I can go there and pick the crap out of it. I am sure I can find things if I look REAL hard. lol

        •' Cinder Biscuits says:

          4) Tantrums on HG Biz comments.

        • I don’t agree on many things, but the point of this being a hacked graphic wasn’t the best one. There are millions of free graphics out there to use and I did think it was kind of… petty to point this one out as being hacked, so I will give you that one Tangle.

          He/she did raise a good point though that you didn’t address and that is the lack of security protocol in your URL. I don’t know enough about it but perhaps your tech could explain why a https: connection isn’t necessary for security reasons. Just to clarify whether that was a “valid point” in Cinder’s comment.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            What exactly is a “hacked graphic”?

            To be sure, most people would expect to see images from the grid they’re signing up for, not well known graphics from Second Life or even rando 3D clipart.

          • Hacked as in copied or duplicated (or as was implied used in an unlawful manner) I believe they explained it was a public domain graphic, it’s not really their fault if SecondLife uses it too it lacks originality and uniqueness but it’s still not their fault. You have to understand too that just because you are on SecondLife and I am on SecondLife doesn’t mean their new member is so it might be the first time that person has ever seen the graphic. Like I said, not wrong just lacking uniqueness.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            That’s not what the word hacked means, hun.

            Also too, finding something in google and deciding you like it doesn’t make it public domain. So yes, a very wrong thing to do, and unlawful as well. 🙂

          • Do you know what nitpicking means? And you do realize that you can search Google specifically for Public Domain images right? And that there are websites, like Pixabay for example, that are jammed full of Public Domain images. If you are so worried that it isn’t why don’t you do a search of the image and prove it and stop wasting everyone’s time with unproven accusations.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            I posted proof five hours ago, silly boy. Have a gander at this morning’s comments and wind your neck in while you’re at it. 🙂 No need to work yourself up over being wrong. lol

          • Ahh perhaps I had better things to do than read this this morning. I have no problem admitting I was wrong (when I am). Do you have any problem admitting that no one cares except you about this?

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            It seems like you care a little too much about something nobody asked your input on. 😉

          • Actually, I was involved in a conversation with Tangle about currency and you provided your input, after me, concerning security and images. I then replied to your comment which was a reply to my original comment directed at Tangle.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            all the more reason you care. lol

          • No I’m simply being polite and responding to a clearly disturbed individual.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Original image actually hosted on second because it’s their graphic, oh my. I don’t see any public domain notice at all:

            Bottom of page:

            Modemworld caption that the image is to showcase Linden Lab’s range of new starter avatars:

          • that’s nice, but an actual Google search will tell you the image was used back in 2009, 6 years before your proof.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            lol yes that image is from 2009… with the default second life avatars that were released in may 2014. pretty cool how they made that image in 2009 two years before there was even mesh to make it, four years before rigged mesh clothing they’re wearing, and five years before those avatars were made.

          • because nothing can be simulated by a computer of course. I recall the “Assistant” avatar that appeared on many websites years before the technology existed for a virtual assistant. Again, who really cares about this other than you?

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            lol, a simulation. yes! yes, that sound perfectly reasonable! or maybe it was created by time travelers! keep ’em coming, winter. remember, this couldn’t possibly be linden lab’s graphic even though it’s an image of their avatars and it was published in much marketing material by them.

          • Guess they should have put a copyright watermark on it then, clearly they weren’t concerned with other people using it as much as you are. Give it up already.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Who is this “they” you speak of winter? The space aliens who generated the original image out of a simulation? Space aliens can’t claim copyright, mister!

          • They, in this case, would be “default second life avatars that were released in may 2014.” as you said?

            But aside that, why couldn’t space aliens claim copyright if they came up with the design. The users obey copyright not the creators. If the space aliens registered or used their image almost anywhere on planet earth before someone else the individual copyright would exist under international law.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Images don’t generate themselves, winter.

            Also, copyright only applies to humans. See PETA v. Slater ruling.

        •' TigerHaven says:

          Wow, you should take this stuff that was posted and improve upon. Instead it seems your having a tantrum. I mean if someone posted this up and I was a grid owner I’d totally look in to making things better. TBH I don’t belong to any grid instead I visit all grids. Anyways you should look in to the flaws with your opensimulator setup instead of thinking that nothing is wrong and improve.

          And to point the blame back at me about its possibly my fault of being laggy? I’m 100% sure in this case it’s not me, by how your website looks.

          Best of luck to you with your hobby.

          • I don’t think a website represents the quality of a grid. Some people easily toss together a prefabricated site with info on it, or use ready to use website tools, some like to build it from scratch so they have full control over everything. I agree that https is something that needs to be implemented all over soon – but sadly the majority of sites are not. I use various guild sites that have financial transactions handled on it (shivtr for example) and even though the site is great quality and used my many thousands of people – they’ve not implemented https – so that in itself doesn’t mean anything.

            The website has a lot of information, a good back end for region back up etc. Could be more streamlined for sure – but def doesn’t mean the grid is lacking.

      •' RainyDae Pixels says:

        Cinder – thanks for pointing out the use of that image. That image has since been changed, because you’re right – TanGLe wants to promote things that are unique to TanGLe, without intentionally infringing on anyone, or any entity. Some people do use items or images without realizing that these things CAN be made easily available for anyone to take even though they may be copyrighted. The other thing I would like to comment on is the http/https – this is definitely not my area of expertise. However I was randomly checking a number of other grid websites, some being DigiWorldz, Great Canadian Grid, Genesis Metaverse and some others. None of their avatar log in pages were https. The only ones I found https at was OSGrid, InWorldz, SL and DigiWorldz billing account. So — I’m not sure why TanGLe is being singled out for that. The financial transactions at TanGLe are being handled by PayPal. You are transferred to a secure connection to buy Tbucks. (unless I am missing something, in which case feel free to clarify)