Grid-within-grid a great option for future grid owners

Starting your own grid isn’t easy. You need your own servers, membership website, plus, of course, residents. Plus, if you want an in-world economy, you have to put payments in place. There are hosting providers, like DigiWorldz and Dreamland Metaverse, that will do all of this, but it takes quite a bit of time and effort to set it all up.

But what if you’re not quite ready?

If you think you might want to have your own grid someday, but want to start out slowly, by building the community, why not start with a “grid-within-a-grid” — or an enclave inside an existing grid.

You can create content, hold events, and attract community members while someone else takes care of all the infrastructure details.

You can start such a community anywhere, including Second Life, but some grids make it easier than others to graduate from an in-world enclave to a separate grid once you’re ready to launch.

Many communities have enclaves on Kitely, where they can get single-region islands, or islands up to 16 regions in size, or have multiple islands. Kitely calls those “worlds” but they are just the Kitely versions of variable-sized regions.

Ilan Tochner

“One common motivation [for multiple islands] is to host builds which don’t fit well with each other,” Kitely CEO Ilan Tochner told Hypergrid Business. “Another reason for getting multiple worlds, which is popular with educators, is to give different groups of students separate areas in which to build their class projects so they won’t be able to spy on what the other groups are doing.”

Any grid, including Second Life, OSgrid, and Metropolis, can be used to host a cluster of regions for a particular community. Kitely allows owners to export the OAR files of those regions when they’re ready to move to other grids, as do many independent hosting providers on OSgrid and Metropolis.

Some grids also allow the export of user inventories, or allow residents to teleport out to the new grids without having to create a new avatar.

But some grid owners offer additional functionality to help support communities that might at some point want to go off on their own.

Those include custom sign-up pages for those communities, custom avatars, custom landing points, and the option to enable or disable hypergrid teleports on their regions.

DigiWorldz is a good example a grid that bends over backwards to serve in-world communities that want to have separate identities. The company runs its own social grid, but also provides hosting for other grids, making it a good option for people who want to easily go from running a community to running their own independent grid at some point.

DigiWorldz is currently hosting several “grids within a grid,” including Kea Nation, Virtual Mecca, Janas Worldz, and Pangea. There are also Carlos Loff’s Virtual Lisbon and Space Life projects, which are temporarily on hold.

Encore Escape used to be a “grid within a grid” on DigiWorldz but has since moved to having its own grid, still hosted by DigiWorldz.

New regions available for rent from Kea Nation. (Image courtesy Kea Nation.)

With DigiWorldz, each owner of a “grid within a grid” can choose to use either Gloebits or Podex currency, choose between using Bullet or ODE physics and can choose to enable or disable hypergridding features of their regions, in addition to choosing whether or not to use custom landing points, custom starter avatars and a custom sign-up page.

Kitely also allows users to choose between using Bullet or ODE physics on a per world basis and to choose to enable or disable hypergridding features also on a per world basis. People can also set custom landing points on a per world basis.

Owners of grids within a grid at DigiWorldz also get a daily backup that is stored for 30 days and a web-based region restarter. They and their users both get support from DigiWorldz staff.

Running your own grid requires a vast amount of skills and experience, grid owner Butch Arnold, commonly known as Terry Ford told Hypergrid Business. A grid within grid is the best option for those who do not have the technical skills required to fix problems, add new features, update OpenSim codes, perform backups and offer reliable support to their customers.

Terry Ford

“This solution allows them to leverage the ten years of OpenSim experience I have, the great performing hardware and connections we have, our automated backup systems, our control panel, and our great OpenSim support,” he said. “They can then simply concentrate on developing their community while we handle the rest.”

Dedicated servers for a “grid within a grid” start at $185 per month at DigiWorldz, making a grid within a grid less costly to run than a separate grid.

For a lower-cost starting point, an $80 package comes with ten standard regions and can be expanded or upgraded to dedicated servers later.

“This is a great way to get started developing their community and if later they need to grow, they can simply add more regions at their leisure, or they can decide to go with a dedicated server or multiple dedicated servers,” Ford said.

An owner of a “grid within a grid” also gets help with transition if he or she decides to move to their own separate grids. He or she can continue using DigiWorldz OpenSim code and get support from the grid.

“If the user later decides to upgrade to their own grid, the transfer of content is done using OAR and IAR files, but each of these types of files are filtered, meaning they will only include items which the users have full perm, or have been created by them,” he said. “Or, the users can simply transfer items between their old avatar and their new avatar as many have done.”

Kea Nation is a grid within a grid at DigiWorldz and runs a total area of 1,072 standard regions. It started as a grid in AviWorlds, then was hosted by Genesis Metaverse, and last year joined DigiWorldz. It became a grid within a grid on January this year, starting with 20 four-by-four variable-sized regions.

Kea Nation opted for a grid within a grid because of the less hassles and cost involved, grid owner Don Hayward told Hypergrid Business.

Don Hayward

“Many would-be grid owners don’t really want the hassles of running a grid, but they are very interested in building a community for new and old friends and this option makes it very easy for them to do just that without the hassles and the cost associated with trying to do it all themselves,” he said. “Leveraging the features, platform, performance and tech support of DigiWorldz makes perfect sense.”

Kea Nation owner and users get backups and all the technical support from an experienced DigiWorldz team and 90 percent of the headaches of running a grid are taken care of by the host grid, Hayward said.

The grid now has a custom sign up page that lands users to Kea Nation upon first login, uses Bullet physics, and the currency is DigiWorldz dollars which is bought through Podex. They also rent land for US$30 per month, and the money goes directly to Kea Nation, which can then use the money to cover hosting costs, buy content, pay salaries, or any other purpose.

“Because we are a ‘grid within a grid’ and a few great people followed us to DigiWorldz we had users from day one,” said Hayward.

Users also get access to shopping and can attend regular events at DigiWorldz, said Ford.

However, there is a bad side of running a grid within a grid compared to an independent grid. You get limited control and your stats cannot be listed separately, said Hayward.

“The only disadvantage I can see with being a grid within a grid is our stats are not listed separately,” said Hayward. “But really — is that a disadvantage?”

Do you know of other grids that offer “grid-within-a-grid” services similar to DigiWorldz? Let us know in the comments!

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David Kariuki

David Kariuki is a technology journalist who has a wide range of experience reporting about modern technology solutions. A graduate of Kenya's Moi University, he also writes for Cleanleap, and has previously worked for Resources Quarterly and Construction Review. Email him at [email protected].

  • Da Hayward

    Great article David

    • David

      Thanks Don

  • Carlos Loff

    Hello Maria, Space Life is back and is online at Digi, with a bigger VAR, just not on it´s own Pro-server but is being built fast – login.digiworldz.com:8002:space life

    Virtual Lisbon has many saved contents and will resurface soon with it´s own Pro-server system, also a fine way to avoid self-grid hassle but having our own resource control

    There is only one thing missing on DIgi for it to be perfect – An web management panel for region owners, to avoid asking Digi for basic functions like upload/download OARs, etc, but although that is still being developed, Digi has a great way to compensate, they do what you ask very accurately and very light-speed

    • David

      Thank you for update, Carlos

      • Carlos Loff

        Thank you David, you have been making an amazing job, cheers

  • 1derworld

    Not sure who gave that name Grid within a Grid, Being its in Digiworldz. And with that said its just a few regions in Digiworldz and Digiworldz is the address. I smell something fishy with that sales pitch.

    • Da Hayward

      Oh joe get over it, when. getting really tired of your “expert” opinion. Here’s an idea you accomplish what Terry and a lot of other grid owners have in open sim then go on about it. Whether you like it or not there are grids out there that have a grid within a grid system and they work. All I hear from you is everyone is wrong but yourself. Its actually good to see an article that is positive about Open sim and you want to down on it. shame on you

      • 1derworld

        LOL Take a deep breath and calm down a minute, I simple said its unheard of is all and that its no such things as a Grid in a Grid lol. Just the concept is not feasible, Its called Regions not a grid. You have regions in Digiworldz that’s all nothing more. And how do you have the right to dictate people with opinions?? Wow almost comical.

        • Da Hayward

          that is incorrect
          if you want to be technical we lease dedicated servers in DigiWorldz, we also have a lot more control over our regions and how we function in DigiWorldz than a person who rents regions. We can also decide who is banned by IP on our servers. If you remember correctly just over a year ago AviWorlds were starting to offer the same service, which you supported at the time. Your comment was directed at Terry not the service so do not tell me to calm down,
          I know you have your own Grid. And I have a right to express my opinion on you being an expert because I have seen you fail to accomplish certain functions inworld that Terry and other grid owners have worked out.
          The Comical part of it is that you don’t really have anything good to say about anyone unless it is yay yay Joe builder is so great. So pull your head in sunshine otherwise someday someone may knock it off!
          My apologies to the HGB readers, Maria, David and Impierce for putting a jerk in his place.

          • 1derworld

            Don’t make this a argument I only posted my opinion if you can’t handle it then move on away from HB. I simple said Grid in a Grid is unheard of. You my friend are turning this into a Argument, I will not fall for your tricks, You assume to much and furthermore I never fail or at least admit to it. Name calling only shows ones guilt, Remember that.

          • Da Hayward

            Sorry Joe I shouldn’t have called you a Jerk. But you were there a year ago in AviWorlds when Alex was thinking of the same service and you thought it was a good idea if you remember you were trying get vehicles to cross on Bullet.
            I don’t care if you and Terry are not friends but please don’t down a service by any other name which is different to renting regions and has had a lot of interest and people take up on it. Terry didn’t suggest this article to HGB , I did so if you want to pick on anyone pick on me. DigiWorldz is not the only grid offering this type of service.

          • 1derworld

            I’m not picking on anyone, And alex well what can we say 🙂 But anyways if it works for you then its all good at the end of the day 🙂 Lets agree no more debate on this.

          • Da Hayward

            agreed
            It is actually a good option for many.

          • Christine Cochran

            It’s worked out fantastic for Virtual Mecca so far. It’s great as we grow. I have no experience with running a grid, myself. We tried going with another hosting company and being totally self-sufficient. It wasn’t working for us. This has given us an opportunity to start out in an environment that will support us and help us grow. We’ll become more self-sufficient as we learn and grow larger.

            I love was Da Hayward has done with Kea within Digi. They are an amazing community. In fact, the entire Digi community has been nothing but great to us.

          • David

            Christine, Great to hear that the option is also working well for Virtual Mecca.

          • Alex Ferraris

            You said it correctly. By having the option of an estate inside DigiWorldz where you are not responsible for anything is great but to turn around and call it a grid is not correct. A grid owner is responsible for everything and anything less is just misleading.
            The classification of A grid within a grid is a misleading way to get more region sales.

          • Alex Ferraris

            It is a great idea Admiral and it does give your land area or community within DigiWorldz grid a stronger autonomy and independence but that’s all that is. A community inside DigiWorldz grid with its own registration page and landing area.
            Nothing bad I love it. God Speed admiral.

    • Han Held

      I’m confused what the difference between a grid-within-a-grid and a large estate is …apart from the seperate login page and starter avis.

      But if it works for folks, then god bless ’em!

      • Da Hayward

        Hi Han
        A “grid within a grid” is just a name. The main differences between it and a large estate is that a grid within a grid gives one a lot more control over their land than a large estate. Being a grid within a grid in my opinion is ideal for those who wish to create, script and do other things. Naturally leasing dedicated servers off the “grids” host grid is a lot cheaper option than setting up a similarily sized estate. Being a grid within a grid also takes away a lot of the tech headaches of setting up your own grid on your own server. You have a resident base from day 1 also being a grid within a grid.
        But for me the biggest thing is it free’s up my time, there are things I need to take care in real life, there is also what I think is the single most important factor in any grid and that’s having time to look after your residents. I’m not saying it is the ideal option for everyone but I do believe it is the perfect solution for a lot of people in OS.

        • Alex Ferraris

          An estate owner can have gods power within his/her land area. Can even create their own TOS. Can restart regions and do everything you said here Da.
          I am not trying to have your project bewildered or make it less than what it is.
          Da; what you have is an Estate inside a grid called DigiWorldz. It has its own registration and birth area but that’s it. A grid is what DigiWorldz is. Your area is nothing more than an estate.
          Grid is a grid. That’s why it’s called a grid.
          But God Speed to you. You have an excellent feature there. Really great.

          • Da Hayward

            Thank you Alex, But really it has far more options than just being an estate has. We qualify estates by what SL and other grids offer, whatever we call the DigiWorldz concept it does offer a lot more than these. The main thing with the concept is it frees up ones time, the host takes care of all the niggly bits. It is far cheaper option than running an estate also.
            It is similar to what you conceived a year and a half ago or so but with more refinements, which is only natural because as time has gone by we have said maybe we can do this bit better or we don’t need this bit. Kea Nation is never about renting land although we will rent regions. We want to provide our people and visitors with an enjoyable experience, that is our pay out at the end of it all.
            Thanks Alex

      • 1derworld

        Because that’s what it is at the end of the day large estate within a grid. But if people want to call it that than I suppose its ok. The illusion one has a separate Grid from the mama grid is just not so.

        • Hi Joe,

          Thank you for providing me the opportunity to “Clarify” the idea behind this.

          Essentially, a “Grid Within a Grid” is simply a “Concept”.
          Often times, people who are considering starting their own grid are often overwhelmed by all that is needed to start and run their own grid.
          Sure, they can self host on their own machines using their own internet connections and those who are technically inclined enough to do it and have an ample machine and internet connection will often have no trouble at all.
          Sometimes users will “rent” their own servers from various data centers such as OVH, godaddy, etc., DigiWorldz is a reseller of dedicated servers for our Data Center and we have many “Rented” servers where people are doing just that, hosting their own regions or grids with no intervention at all from DigiWorldz. We also rent dedicated servers to users who have nothing at all to do with OpenSim.

          The “Grid within a Grid” concept is not aimed for these types of people.

          Many people don’t really want to run their own grid once they find out everything it entails:
          – Maintaining Servers
          – Maintaining Backups
          – Maintaining Databases
          – Maintaining Websites
          – Supporting users
          – Fixing Problems (Grid, Website, Databases, etc.)
          – Creating their in world environment
          – Registering their business if they will be selling land, etc.
          – Dealing with DMCA issues
          – Finding/installing/creating features which do not yet exist in “Stock” OpenSim

          Instead, they are more interested in building a community with an identity and would rather leave the rest up to someone else.

          The Grid Within a Grid concept does indeed sound very much like just an estate inside an existing grid and at a technical level within the OpenSim processes, that is essentially what it is, but with a few differences.
          – User’s get their own signup page which they can embed into an existing site, or use the page as a standalone hosted by themselves, or hosted by DigiWorldz.

          – This signup page has the ability to use custom avatars, or the users can choose to use the default avatars provided by DigiWorldz. This signup page can be modified to include any graphics/headers, etc the user may choose to use.

          – Using this page, any user who signs up will land at a region and landing point chosen by the owner instead of landing in the DigiWorldz Welcome region.

          – The owner has instant access to the entire DigiWorldz platform with all of our features.
          – Web Restarter for their regions
          – Estate Managers also have access to this restarter.
          – All regions are monitored by DigiWorldz and if a problem develops we are there to take care of it.
          – Region owners can turn on/off hypergrid access to their regions at anytime by using our control panel
          – Region owners can choose between Bullet or ODE physics at anytime by using our control panel
          – They no longer need to worry about backups as DigiWorldz takes care of this for them and we store these backups in 2 different ways, in 4 different locations for 30 days.. our data center in Florida, our Data center in Ohio, Amazon S3 storage, and also Azure Storage.
          – Our code allows bullet scripted vehicles to cross region borders
          – Users can choose to use either PODEX or Gloebits in each region, it’s their choice.

          – The owner and their users have instant access to all DigiWorldz events, shopping, and community.

          – The owner and their community have instant support from DigiWorldz

          – Each of the DigiWorldz servers have at least 12 CPU cores and “ALL” of them use Solid State Drives, including our Core Database.

          – We use only “Dedicated” hardware (No Cloud services) connected to the internet with a constant (not “Burstable”) 1gb connection. Our Dedicated servers are not the “OVH” servers most tend to go with for $50-$70/mo. A comparable server at OVH would cost $150-$200/mo. and would not include management of both the server and the OpenSim platform/code.

          – All servers are backed up by generators

          – Our Core Database is backed up by 4 additional slave databases which mirror our core database in real time, allowing us to quickly switch over to one of these 4 backups in case of trouble on our main database.

          – They have instant access to my 10 years of OpenSim experience and the more than 50 years “Collective” experience of our staff.

          – Our regions are all set to allow 100 avatars in a region, and we test it regularly and our code handles it well.

          – Our Platform and Company are stable, Legal, and very reliable.

          – Dedicated server Owners may resell their regions at any price they choose – Kea Nation is a great example of this.

          These are some of the things a “Grid Within a Grid” owner no longer has to worry about, they simply then can concentrate on building their community, enjoying their virtual life, and if the times comes where they want to move to their own grid, we can help them with this transition and make it as smooth as possible.

          Often, a user starting their own grid does not have the ability to “Fund” a platform like ours, Does not have the knowledge or skills required to do all that is required to provide a feature rich environment which performs better than most, is reliable, and provides to them a ready made environment which they and their users can leverage for their own enjoyment.
          And they don’t have our “First Class” support (http://digiworldz.com/feedbackcomments.php)

          So as you can see, the concept includes far more than just an estate on a grid as you’ve indicated/questioned and many have found great value in this idea.

          This allows more users to enjoy OpenSim without all of the hassles which come from running their own grid.

          While “Self Hosting” is certainly an option, and may save some cash, there is no comparison when you put the concept together with everything we have to offer. You simply cannot afford to put together a platform like ours with the features we have to offer for any less than what we are offering with this concept.

          Hope this helps to better understand the concept of a “Grid Within a Grid”.

          • Han Held

            I appreciate your taking the time to write that out, that does give me (and everyone else) a lot clearer of a picture of what -exactly- the term means. Thank you!

          • 1derworld

            Didn’t take much huh 🙂 lol Not sure you can say makes things clearer.

          • Han Held

            What part of what he wrote confused you?
            Note I said “confused” -I could also say “what part is unclear”.

            I am not saying “what part do you disagree with”; so far in this comment chain your argument appears to be “but it’s not a true grid omgz” when he explained that it’s a concept, and clearly explained what the purpose of it was for.

            You imply his post wasn’t clear, but the reasons behind your critiques in this chain are rather opaque. You yourself even admit that digiworldz offers first rate service. So from where I’m sitting it looks like all of this is because of some sort of personal beef more than anything else.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d52dda44ecefdec9d78c770bf4704940a86e91d620788ee33372fa94d75febbc.gif
            …but that’s none of my business.

          • 1derworld

            If Han says so then it must be gospel, Remember I have been saying its not the first time such a concept (Wording) has been presented. At the end of the day fancy words don’t always represent what it actually is. Thanks for your input on everything.

          • Han Held

            That doesn’t answer my question; but it does prove my point!

            Thanks for playing!

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fdaa6650c33e2e55063dde8e4027e94c3775de89157efb96663c91487daca834.jpg

          • 1derworld

            Your reputation proceeds you Han, Love your pics btw 🙂

          • 1derworld

            Same concept Alex from Aviworlds came up with long ago very comical, But when he went to Kitely about it just didn’t fly, Suppose its just a fancy term to charge more money with a bogus feature, Whoever uses it possibly. Hey if you get a few to by that idea grid within a grid LOL then go for it, I think most will see right thru that.

          • Da Hayward

            ok so how come I never hear of lost worlds doing great Joe?
            How come you ridicule competent managers and Techs who may just know a bit more than you?
            We have Been with Digi for a while now and haven’t got one complaint with their service or support.
            Can you say the same?
            To me your comments are just sounding like sour grapes and if they do to me they will to others.
            Think about it if you dare!

          • 1derworld

            Lost World is one of my Grids I sell OAR’s and do very well with that thank you, Would I host regions like Digi probably not, I think I would get a RL job first. Techs hmm you have no clue do you? Anyways like I said Grid within a Grid is a nice term for renting virtual land from a grid which in fact you reside nothing more. Who cares really end of the day you are still in digiworldz 🙂 geez

          • Da Hayward

            Once again you have proven you haven’t got a clue!!! Period You sell OARS so do a lot of others does that make you the best of the best? You have many Grids? on a home server? Id love to see it. I said before get over it!
            I say to you “when you reach Terry Fords level of experience, expertise and competence then you can maybe think about your personal vendetta”. What we call a Grid within a grid is totally different to owning estates.
            Research Joe, get your facts.

          • 1derworld

            wow I hope he don’t stop short walking you may have that nose in a bad spot. LOL My servers are quality grade a step above OVH. Maybe one day your regions will have there own identity besides being under the roof of digiworldz, Yep that’s what its all bout Identity. With all that money you gave away in SL/Aviworlds and now Digi you could of bought some servers from NASA 🙂

          • Da Hayward

            yup we gave money away though i don’t begrudge Alex a cent of it he took the advice of self appointed know it all’s and he can be quite a nice chap! DigiWorldz well as I said we have no issues with them and do recommend their services to all we meet. My nose may get in a bad spot thats life but at least We aren’t living in a fantasy puffing our chest out saying “Hey look at me I’m the big man grid owner” are we? We are not skilled enough to do everything ourselves, that is why we pay for those services, Maybe you could get Maria or David to an article on the services you offer, would that satisfy your ego?

          • 1derworld

            As I told HGB in my own words I do not advertise its all word of mouth. I have never advertised not even in SL, Not bragging but there I had the #1 store if that means anything, Which it don’t. I do not in no way shape or form puffing out my chest as you put it. Just saying Grid in a Grid just may be the wrong term is all. The day you take the service Terry provides and have you own unique grid then you can say Kea is a grid. Its all common sense and how things are. There is over 1000 grids online and only a small handful (Small) use a hosting service so yes it can be done. One day if you like I would be happy to point you in the right direction 🙂 Think of the monthly savings and having the same as you got now.

          • Da Hayward

            sounds like advertising now joe
            But if you wish to offer people a like service that we are getting now through DigiWorldz I would say good on you.

          • 1derworld

            Out of context huh 🙂 Lets say for the debates sake.

          • Da Hayward

            anyway the article is what we term as Grid within a grid not the same as renting estates. the thread is getting a bit off subject.

          • its the internet connection and backup power generators and other things your home connection can not keep up… Say you have a hurricane down in Florida and your power goes out > ? now what

          • 1derworld

            I have a Entertainment grid, no need for renters never wanted them ever. I can shut it down at my own leisure.

          • Hi Joe,

            You’re missing the point buddy.

            Let’s see you put together a similar offering for just $185/mo.
            Let’s see…
            – The cost of a Good quality, Professionally hosted server with 12 CPU cores, and Solid State drives connected to the internet with a “FULL TIME” 1gb connection… If you’re lucky you can find one for $150.
            – The cost of the control panel for your users – Find one as good as ours and it will run you $30-$50/mo.
            – The cost of the website and hosting – you can get a shared plan for around $5
            – The cost of a second machine on which to run a slave database – You could use a cheap one there – $50/mo.
            – The cost of a 3rd machine to run a 2nd slave database – again.. $50/mo.
            – The cost of a 4th server to run a 3rd slave database – again $50/mo.
            – The cost of a 5th server to run your 4th slave on – again $50/mo.
            – The cost to store your backups in a separate location on say amazon – We’ll say it’s a free account so $0/mo.
            – The cost to register your business – depends on your location but we’ll say $100
            – The cost to hire a support team to take care of your issues and your user’s issues – we’ll go cheap on this – $100/mo.
            – The cost to have someone add the features you don’t have with stock OpenSim – $800
            – The cost of buying OAR files from people like you – $100 each.. let’s say they buy at least one.
            – The cost to pay someone to come help debug things when issues arise – $45/hr.
            – The cost to pay someone to sit and watch over their grid while they live a real life.
            – The list could keep going on and on..

            Sure, you could cut out the slave databases and their associated servers, you could cut out the backups stored off premises, you could give up better servers and buy cheap ones, sure, you can run your regions or entire grid on your residential cable or DSL internet like you do, but how many users can your grid handle in a region?

            How many users do you think could be supported by that type of connection or cheap hardware?
            Do you think your home based regions/grid could sustain 100 users logged into your grid right now?
            I’ll bring them over and we can see if your self hosted setup can handle that, just let me know.

            You could cut out the support costs, but then you have to do it all yourself.
            You could cut out any or most of these if you like, but then you wouldn’t have the same services as were are offering.

            The point is Joe, some people do not want to do these things on their own, and/or they do not know how to do these on their own, and/or they can’t afford a similar platform with similar features and performance, therefore they find value in this service, just the same as people find value in the OAR files you sell.. they could build their own content, search for textures, etc, but they choose to buy them instead.
            Is that comical to you too I wonder?

            Do you think it is funny that people would be willing to pay for the things they don’t yet have to save them time and work? It happens on a daily basis, not just in OpenSim, but the real world as well.

          • 1derworld

            No, never ever said Digiworldz offers anything less than quality service, The concept of a grid within a grid is really not possible. The grid in question has no uniqueness, and is within the walls of another grid technically. As I stated why not use your service and have the grid stand alone. That would make it unique and be a legit grid in many eyes. Yes digi would supply servers/back end/ and tech support. Not sure why people would want differently. And friends are just a TP away that’s anywhere

          • Fair enough Joe, but we’ve already told you the name “Grid within a grid” is only a concept where we add other features to allow a user to build up his/her community without the need to obtain and/or do everything else needed… that’s the whole idea. Later if the user decides to take on some of the responsibilities of running their own grid, we can help them with that.. but this gives them a chance to build a community and test the waters so to speak… that’s all.

          • 1derworld

            I’m familiar with that name it’s one Alex from Aviworlds dreamed up very long ago, And even back then we had words about its usefulness, But ok suppose you can try and see how it goes. Good Luck with it

          • Thanks, We’ve been doing it for almost a year now and have had success and those we have helped I’m sure will provide testament to the usefulness of the service. Only one of the users have thus far decided to move to their own grid; The Encore Escape which was a successful convert and still hosted by DigiWorldz.

          • Da Hayward

            oh got you now, sorry if I misunderstood.
            being the grid within a grid also gives us the chance to accomplish something important to all “Kea’s”.
            It isn’t important for us to be able to say I or we own such and such a grid it is not we are in open sim for.
            We see it like this We are part of the Kea community, equally we are part of the DigiWorldz community, equally we are part of the Open sim/ Hypergrid community. the system we use now is perfect for our need’s it may not suit everyone but it certainly suits us. So what else is there really to consider, Kea still has its identity within a larger community which in itself is part of an even larger community.
            Sound good?

          • The cost to have someone add the features you don’t have with stock OpenSim – $800 my prices just went up !!

          • Alex Ferraris

            Butch; saving time and taking responsibilities that a customer may not be prepared for or doesn’t want to be does not make A grid within a grid less misleading.
            It is a good feature I love it !
            I think if it is advertised as have your own registration page for your DigiWorldz community is more to the point than having a grid within a grid.
            Server specs and all that does not make it a grid neither.
            It is nothing but an extra service you are offering for community owners inside your grid.
            Although I am the pioneer of that concept I never called it a grid within a grid. To call it that would be misleading.

          • noxluna

            Ok Joe,

            I really was going to stay out of this because well, you’re you. But here’s the deal..and you hit it right on target, without even knowing you did. At the end of the day everyone is in opensim….get it?

            Before I continue though, its a bit disingenuous for you to say you’re a Grid owner, what you are is an owner of a collection of regions you use to showcase your OARs that you sell for a rather pretty sum…since YOU are the one that always brings up other peoples “greed”.
            Want to know why it is really a great idea for communties of grids to get together and come under one umbrella?

            Every single creator I talk to in SL (and the amount of botted and popular SL items is fair proof that peeps WANT sl content) say that the online population of ANY given grid is too small. So, if grids band together and improve the overall online population TOGETHER this is a good thing. It shows a higher online population for opensim/hypergrid enabled grids in general.

            I’ve tried explaining to creators that opensim enables tp’ing from grid to grid much like region to region in SL, but their mindset is that a single grid has to have a large population online at any given time.

            Personally, I would LOVE for opensimmers to be happy with the content offerred by opensim creators, and there are quite a few whom are happy to share their products full perm (Linda Kellie, Snik Snoodle and Ferd/Fred just to name a few..) of course we dont see their items offered on the regions giving away free full perm stuff….but back to the main point. Grids are what one makes of them, and if you can use a stand alone software config to have a “grid” you can certainly have a community of grids within a grid. After all having one region in an estate group doesnt make that region any less of a region does it? No, of course not. And you have said that Alex tried to do this same thing and the only reason it didn’t fly was he didnt agree with the kitely TOS. So something that a friend of your’s tries and can’t make work is ok, but someone else makes it work and suddenly its not ok?

          • 1derworld

            Well let me school you, First I have a full blown Grid running large servers and a speedy connection I pay good money for. Lost World is 1000 regions with a unique visitors of over 500. That’s damn good numbers for a grid that was built to be strictly Entertainment for Opensims. As of lately many told me to sell these OAR’s so yes I have been. Not sure you have any idea of Opensims and how it works. I have free items in a few vars I give away and so does a few other popular grids, Not sure what your trying to say about free stuff really. And like I said you may want to find the correct definition of grid before sounding off. Lastly about me being a grid owner I have technically been a grid owner since 2010 if you must know and not just Lost World people with out a negative agenda know this already..

          • Da Hayward

            Is there a correct definition of a “Grid”? It comes down to in my way of thinking in the sense of these worlds a “grid” is multible regions owned by an individual with in the same defined virtual area. It doesn’t matter what log in accounts you use or currency. But that’s how I see it others may and are perfectly right to see it whatever way they want

          • noxluna

            Hi Joe, and thanks for the laugh about schooling me… Honestly you couldn’t school a group of lost fish and if you have to say you’re gonna school someone; you’ve already failed. Ok, lets break it down: You say everyone can run a grid off of standalone stuff like simonastick and dreamworldz yet…”First I have a full blown Grid running large servers”. Gosh…500 unique visitors out of approximately 30,000 in opensim…yeah those are damn good numbers ….especially for a grid of free content and for sale items (OARS), which I might add you’ve been selling for as long as I have known you…about two years, so not really that recent. Free stuff? I love free stuff myself, I fully support anyone who wants to create and give away free stuff…the emphasis on being create …I also fully support those who wish to create and sell. Because unlike some (who want to sell things and then turn around and talk about other people’s greed) I do NOT have an agenda, negative or otherwise..unless of course, one thinks that wanting opensim to flourish and succeed is an agenda. I believe opensim is integral to virtual. With so many new types of platforms opening up that require high end software/equipment virtual worlds as we know them will be the last bastion for peeps to freely learn and create. Oh and definition: The virtual world definition..
            To many people, especially users of social virtual worlds, a grid is only useful if it has many places to go, people to meet, and activities to participate in.
            Yep, I think I nailed it. Oh yeah, and a grid doesn’t have to have its own currency now to be a grid (unless we say that all grids using Gloebits are not grids then) ….

          • 1derworld

            Wow the cheerleaders of Digiworldz in full bloom here 🙂 Now that’s Entertainment. Your repeating yourself Nox its not attractive at all.

          • Da Hayward

            yup i guess we are cheerleaders for DigiWorldz. I’m not ashamed of that, why would I be?Digi really takes care of us and visitors to their grid so why not?
            Like you, me and everyone else Nox is entitled to her opinion.

          • noxluna

            Thank you DA

          • noxluna

            Wow Joe, can’t handle an honest disagreement so you call a woman ugly basically…you know in RL that is typical abuser/bully behavior. Fortunately for me I have a healthy regard for myself and don’t particularly care if you find me “attractive”.

            But thanks for showing everyone your true self 🙂
            (and ps the only one repeating themselves is you)

          • 1derworld

            Now that you hijacked the topic being your a scorned woman from years back hope your happy with yourself. Don’t deny it facts may get ugly to the events, Lets get back to topic ok? 🙂

        • Da Hayward

          you just don’t get it do you

          • Are their centralised databases for everyone or do you guys have your own asset database ?

          • Da Hayward

            Centralised data bases Josh

          • Alex Ferraris

            Butch Arnold said himself that it is only a concept. It is not really a grid within a grid.
            It is an enhanced way to call a community within a grid that has its own registration page and birth area.
            I see no problems with offering that service but it can be misleading if advertised as A grid within a grid.

        • Cinder Biscuits

          I don’t see how you figure “the future is self hosting”. The same things can be said for hosting a website, but honestly, how many people out there are doing that vs purchasing shared hosting?

          • 1derworld

            LOL i’ll say this and you do the math, Dreamworldz package for 1. Or ask the creator to show you his active database on users. Not to mention that its fact not fudged numbers from the hosting companies out there. Remember not everyone in Opensims Looks or knows what HGB is or adding iffy stats.

        • Carlos Loff

          Is not expensive but is not that easy and evenifit becomes easier I would never sleep well knowing Im responsible by my registered members inventories – The future is easy webpanel controls but not necessarily self host

  • Alex Ferraris

    Here is my two cents on this subject.
    A grid within a grid is nothing more than regions inside a grid. It’s really an ESTATE or a community inside a virtual world. Second Life has many but they are called communities and estates.
    This is not new at all I tried it many moons ago using KITELY platform but because AviWorlds would have to be bound by KITELY’s TOS; I saw a problem and discontinued the idea.

    A grid to be a grid needs to have its own autonomy and even if you MASK that by having a separate login page or a registration page unique and made for that estate within the main grid; it would still be nothing more than an ESTATE.

    Why call it a grid if the regions are inside a grid that has its own domain name and these regions are bound to a TOS that’s not theirs?
    To make the customer feel better? To make the estate owner feel bigger?

    So to end this I will say that any grid hosting company or grid that says you the customer can have a grid within their grid is actually using an unfair predatory wording tactic and even FALSE advertisement in order to obtain more region sales. That’s all that is.

    • Da Hayward

      yes the AviWorlds ones were really estates Alex. The DigiWordz ones are not the same set up as the AviWorlds ones were though.
      I would assume other grids who offer a similar service would be the same.
      Best thing to do is check it out with Butch.
      We have what is termed a grid within a grid in DigiWorldz and I can assure you they are nothing like the AviWorlds concept.
      But I guess those who don’t have one know better than those that do.

      • Alex Ferraris

        Yes I know what you are saying I know because I went into details about it when I employed digiworkdz services. Having a separate server or having a separate registration page does give your land area certain autonomy but still we have to see it for what it is.
        Does your area in Digiworldz have its own currency?
        Is the domain name a pure domain name or an extension of digiworldz domain name?
        Does it use its own robust?
        What I see is an area inside a grid with its own registration page
        But it is not a grid. A grid is a grid An estate is an estate.
        Nothing wrong though for having a large estate inside a grid.
        If your land area uses your own domain name and has no connection with another domain name that is being used as the main one for the entire platform, it has its own robust then yes you have a grid.

        • Da Hayward

          We dont use our own currency for the simple reason we don’t need to. An “estate” limits what functions as an estate owner you can utilise on your land. The “grid within a grid” system allows you a lot more control over what you do.
          Also collectively as Noxluna pointed out it does create a more united Open Sim community.
          It takes away a lot of problems and head aches which you yourself have experienced in the past as well.
          TBH Alex I don’t know why you are all getting worked up over a name. Most people want some form of unity in Open Sim I see this as a stepping stone towards that. But the case may be that a lot of critics may only want a United Open Sim with them as the King of the castle.
          I said before that it may not suit everyone but I also know that the majority of the people on this system within DigiWorldz are more than happy with the way it works. At the end of the day isn’t that what really matters.

          • 1derworld

            Hey Admiral I think what Alex and myself are saying is and BTW no ones getting worked up. Just is sounds a little like false advertisement being its not really a grid as the definition of a grid is much more than you have now. Maybe say Kea Nation has joined Digiworldz to create one large joined Community

          • Da Hayward

            i disagree.
            It isn’t false advertising. I approached HGB to do this article not DigiWorldz, If I was going to Advertise you would see a little place holder filled with a Kea Ad to the right on this page.
            Kea can not be classed as an estate or even a large estate in the sense of SL or other grids. We have far more control over what we want or need within this concept, really an estate holder just rents regions off a Grid then re rents them. I suggested this article to share our great experience with the DigiWorldz grid within a grid system and no doubt some may read it and say to them self “hey this looks like something worth looking into” be it on DigiWorldz or another grid. That is the readers choice.
            Open sim has a problem, its not creators or developers, it is when people instead of looking at positives decide they need to pull something down just to satisfy their own ego’s. Kea in DigiWorldz will be around a long time and a lot of that is due to DigiWorldz providing excellent support and service.
            Oh Alex I forgot to mention our domain name was purchased by myself and is not a DigiWorldz add on.

          • Alex Ferraris

            Ok but if your land area is inside a grid it is not a grid. It is an excellent feature having your own registration page and all but it is still a land area, a community inside DigiWorldz. Nothing bad nothing wrong with it.
            But let’s call it for what it is. Calling it a grid does diminish the word GRID.

      • Alex Ferraris

        Your area in AviWorlds was a lot bigger than what you have inside DigiWorldz grid and you are calling it an estate. But anyway you call it what you want. I have a Honda Accord and I will tell my girlfriend it is a Ferrari for now on. 🙂

        • Da Hayward

          LOL
          actually Alex we are bigger in area now than we have ever been.
          But we can Just agree to disagree.
          Have a great day Alex catch up soon

    • Hi Alex.. I recall you asking us to put this same concept in place on your grid when we were hosting you.

      • Alex Ferraris

        Yes and I did mention it in one of my posts here. I have nothing to hide in fact I did say it is a good thing and it does provide a certain autonomy but It does not make the land area a grid.

        • 1derworld

          Its really called not to CONFUSE the public is a custom estate within a grid end of story.

          • Da Hayward

            wrong blunder world

          • Da Hayward

            Sorry Joe you need to take a depth breathe and chill. Your statements are incorrect. But then I have one of these you don’t so how could you possibly know? You don’t know the agreement between DigiWorldz and I, You don’t know what was negotiated between us when we set these up. In short you are guessing.

          • 1derworld

            You keep sending your payment check for that, While everyone outside of digiworldz snickers at the notion

          • Da Hayward

            yes we will joe is that a problem for you if so why? Really none of your business is it? Just like its none of my business what you do.
            Have a great day.

    • Da Hayward

      Well does a “grid” shutting down, reopening, shutting down, going to a private closed grid, membership by emailing the owner qualify as a grid. You were going to do exactly the same thing Alex so jump down off your high horse. You want to talk about “FALSE” advertising bring it on. You are burning bridges very fast.

      • Alex Ferraris

        Yes but that doesn’t mean it is a grid. I think it is a good tool and it does provide a certain autonomy for your land area. It’s great do not misunderstand me. The shutting down and bringing the grid back up has nothing to do with this subject.

        • Da Hayward

          You are saying its an estate Alex , it isn’t.

          • Alex Ferraris

            Da. If it is inside a grid it is not a grid. Having nice features and all still does not qualifies it as a grid
            As long as your land area remains inside DigiWorldz; it is an estate; a community inside another grid.
            We can turn it around, upside down or upwards and it will still be an estate a community that DigiWoldz offers nice functionalities. Nothing more nothing less.
            Your land area depends on DigiWorldz as the Grid in order to stay online.
            I am not trying to pull your nerves Da I am just giving you correct information
            Like I have also said before; iwhat DigiWorldz is offering is nice Good functionalities that make it easier for you to manage your community inside DigiWorldz grid.
            God Speed

          • Da Hayward

            I am sorry Alex We will just have to agree to disagree. It is definitely much more than an estate. When it comes down to it the disagreement over what we call it is really splitting hairs. We can call it what we like, just as you can call any service you offer what you like, others may not like it but hey it works for us.

          • Alex Ferraris

            Well sure thing. You can call it what you want Da.
            I have a question though; if you look in DigiWorldz region count. Does your land area or grid add to the total amount of regions DigiWorldz has?
            When you teleport to a region outside your area; do you need to write the HG address on the search map or you can teleport directly into any of these regions?
            Thanks Da.

          • Da Hayward

            Hyper gridding it depends on the region our users go to, some are direct teleports others aren’t, same as it was in AviWorlds when we were there.
            I very rarely hypergrid mainly because most of my time is spent in our world, you know how much attention these take. As for our stats listed in HGB, they are included in the DigiWorldz count as mentioned in the article, this is not an issue for me personally I’m not going to thump my chest and say “hey look how many regions I got”. We often talked about a unity or a common direction in open Sim when we were in AviWorlds and due credit to yourself you thought this was a good thing. I/We see what we are doing as a step towards that. Simply put it works for us

          • 1derworld

            Alex there is no use with this, like kicking a dead horse till it turns into a skeleton. Better chance of squeezing water out of a rock. If he thinks its a grid and that notion helps him sleep better at night then so be it.

          • 1derworld

            100% correct But if he thinks its a grid lol then by all means let me keep thinking that 🙂

    • Jessica Random

      Totally agree Alex.

      Some people are getting very hung up on the idea of defending Digiworldz for their “grid within a grid” service, but I don’t think anyone is saying the idea is a BAD idea.

      With their “grid within a grid” you get a dedicated server that you have a nice control panel to manage. This means you do not share simulators with other users and this is of course a good thing. However, I can also get a dedicated server to connect to Metropilis, or OSGrid. Does that mean I have my own grid? No, I just have a server with simulators that connect to robust type services on Metropolis or OSGrid servers. I am still just hosting an estate on that grid. The same is true of Digiworldz “grid within a grid” service. They also provide a dedicated login etc – and this is a good service for those that want it. I do not think however that even Digiworldz are claiming that this is “a grid”. They are just using the name “grid within a grid” as a marketing term as it is “like” your own grid.

      The fact is that when using a service like “grid within a grid” you DO have the limitations of the grid you are on. You have the limitation of the currency and TOS of the grid, their policies on export of items (do they allow export restrictions etc). You have their policies on backups, OARs, IARs etc. This is not necessarily an issue, but people should be aware of them and make an informed decision as to what they are prepared to live with,

      Without adequate research “grid within a grid” implies to people that it is actually a grid itself (although I do not believe Digiworlz claim this to actually be the case) and it’s easy for people to make assumptions as to the level of separation they have. Because of this I personally think the name is a little misleading. I don’t know I would go as far as to say its false advertising as I do not think they are actually claiming it IS a grid, nevertheless it is a term that I know can confuse some and make them infer this from the name.

      • Alex Ferraris

        Good post Jessica. Agree with you.

        • Da Hayward

          Alex you Dont know what you are talking about, Im sorry but it is not an estate. If you were with Digi More than a month or so you would have seen that. But hey I guess doing this 10 or more times gives you the right to be an expert

      • 1derworld

        I agree with you and the fact when the public reads into this concept (Wording) it will be a deterrent and end on a negative note. Extremely misleading and the grid owner who claims been in opensims for many years should know better. Lets all agree its a Custom Estate service offered by Digiworldz.

      • Da Hayward

        Grid within a Grid is just a name. It is however totally different to an estate in SL or other grids.
        But maybe Alex knows better although he has never actually had one

  • Da Hayward

    OK!
    Grid within a grid is a term and concept we use in DigiWorldz. Other grids I know have looked at offering similar services.
    We pay DigiWorldz for certain services which either we are not skilled enough to do or do not have the time to do. Using DigiWorldz Accounts and being located within their grid is the most logical course of action for us at this time.
    The best way to find out more about the service is to talk to DigiWorldz or other grids which offer similar. I am certain you will see it is not such a bad option.
    It does offer far more lee way than being an estate.

  • Alex Ferraris

    My last two cents
    If it is advertised as A grid within a grid; My opinion is that it is a misleading ad that does confuse the customer and the only objective is to obtain more land sales for the platform.
    It is a clever way to get more land sales and also a good feature for the customer.
    But at the end of the day it is simply an enhanced way that allows members of a specific community to have their own entrance.

    Example. Can we call an apartment within a building that has its own entrance via an elevator a building ? No off course not.

    • Da Hayward

      Whats this about Land sales? And even if it was what has it got to do with you? I asked HGB to do this article to share with others what a great system we think this is. Like it or not Alex it is not an estate.But anyway I do find it somewhat sad that you are turning into a person who wants to hinder OS unity, you used to be a good bloke

  • Da Hayward

    Thank you David for writing a very good article. I’m sorry there are a few who wish to nit pick in comments.
    One Thing I would like to add about the “concept” is. Most of us wish to see a unity within Open Sim as a whole, I know Kea definitely and I assume Christine and Carlos as well sees the “grid within a grid” system as a stepping stone towards this. Instead of aggressively competing against each other or other grid’s I know we would rather work together towards a common goal. Although Joe and Alex question our motives I am sure if they sit down and think about it they will see it maybe isn’t a bad thing by whatever name we call it. Well I hope they would.
    Thanks again and my apologies for getting a bit hot under the collar in my comments in this thread.

    • 1derworld

      Anyways best of luck with your Estate in Digiworldz

      • Da Hayward

        lol
        ok joe. have a great day.

    • Carlos Loff

      We are far far away from having to compete and Im pretty sure there will be soon much much more demand than offer (unhappy SL.Migrants), so a niche for everyone – But before we need to unite and show the world the OS potential and stability – Thousands of small previous SL creators and community project managers have now the freedom in OS to start any dream, at least to try it out, without going bankrupt in 3 monthss – That can be compared to the French Revolution of the Metaverse –
      No excuses now, let’s rockkkkkkk

      • Da Hayward

        Well we don’t compete with any other grid not even the “Big grid”. More and more people are coming into open sim by their own choice mainly because of what you said the flexibility and ability to grow their dream. Kea like your own “grid with in a grid” Carlos is there for people to enjoy. The main issue in this thread isn’t what we call it, it is basically “bad blood” between the main critic or nay sayer if you like and The owner of DigiWorldz. In my opinion, Really that is such a shame. His argument is splitting hairs and one day we may see something positive and constructive in these threads from him, but I am not holding my breathe. A few months ago I was very anti Genesis MetaVerse, But since then They have turned their way of operating around so hats off to them, maybe Joe can learn the same thing and drop past grievances.

  • Metro

    Grid-within-grid a great option I think any new changes or features is better then nothing, as a resident of Inworldz we have sit stagnated the last few years with no real features that were promised for years ago, almost all the founders are gone as is most of the development team with everything new server side being provided with the welfare program thru the U.S. Army Halcyon Project.

    When I seen this message, suddenly it dawned on me our grid was on the backburner waiting to die, one or two people take the day off the whole grid shuts down so Imagine what will happen when they just get tired of running the place.

    Support Out Today
    Beth Reischl
    June 07, 2017 13:23
    Today is my eldest daughters
    graduation, and so myself and Mai will be out for most of the day. We’ll
    be available later this evening, but if you know anyone waiting on
    support, please refer them to this post and we’ll get caught up when we
    get back!

    So if Grid-within-grid is not a full feature and everyone is disagreeing instead lets see about have that feature built into opensim instead..work together to make it be something that divide’s people into uniting everyone.

    Just as a point this topic is being discussed in Inworldz and it seems to be tearing whats left of our small fragmented grid apart after years of stagnation everyone is desperate for something new..please let the fall of my grid be a larger learning lesson for all instead. https://inworldz.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/115004381213-minigrid-within-a-grid

    one of the best things one can say about opensim, people are willing to add features & grow.

    • 1derworld

      Its not a concept. Its not a feature, In any sense of being called a Grid. A grid is unique within itself it can be hosted or ran on home servers, But not in another Grid that has already been termed as a Estate long ago. Maybe best to find some other terminology

      • Da Hayward

        get over it joe you just getting annoying now! You have know idea what you are talking about, you have never had one and by your own admission don’t lease or rent regions/servers.
        You sole reason for commenting is to cause disharmony in Open Sim as a whole!!! A couple of threads ago you mentioned why don’t you just forget open sim and do your own thing. I applaud that thought Sod off and go be a know it all smart a***e somewhere else. You don’t contribute! I know for one we certainly don’t need your stirring. Bitter old men should stay playing solitaire. And please don’t say “are you looking to start a war?” because if I do you will lose.

      • Da Hayward

        i guess it is ok for you to call someone a scorned women from way back but when someone expresses there opinion on your comments that is not acceptable.
        wow well done Joey boy

      • Da Hayward

        There is no way you can refer to Kea or any of these others as an estate that’s the bit you aren’t seeing, as I have pointed our we have far more options in these than rented Estates have. Best thing is come into DigiWorldz and have a look. I have not seen you near Kea so once you have looked then I’ll consider your opinion on this matter.

        • 1derworld

          Seeing small airports in grids is not a thing that has my interest. Not sure what you could possibly be talking about.

          • Da Hayward

            Seeing anything which isn’t centered around Joe Builder is not inyour interest you mean.
            Come on Joe man up admit you split hairs to have a dig at Terry.
            At the end of the day considering you are blocked from entering DigiWorldz and now Kea its not really any of your business is it?
            a previous comment of mine was deleted, but really what I said fits you like a glove.

          • 1derworld

            If I choose to go in any grid i’m free to do so, I can be anybody from any grid 🙂 can’t block them all, May want to get your facts straight before typing. And I see you do a GREAT job at coming up to your own conclusions. Not sure why you constantly bring up Terry’s name, Starting to sound much like a instigator. As far as your comments being deleted well, May want to start typing with relevance.

          • Da Hayward

            how many ips do you have joe?
            Lets get one thing straight some of us in these worlds want to make it better for people. here is a fact you comment to show people how smart Joe Builder is. My opinion so lawrence please take this into account when you delete it.
            Everyworld or grid we have been on you Joe have to ridicule. Im told you are a mature man in your senior years in RL one would think you could behave like one. Over the lasy year and a half I have only seen you Joe attempt to pull people down or ridicule someone elses ideas. You offered oars to Kea at one stage I think the Price you quoted was US$2000 for resource heavy OARS that is a fact. When are you going to support anyone but yourself ? Never?
            You pasy be a tech wiz and everything else in your own mind but it is astonishing how many competent employed techs find fault in your work. You also cann iot be anybody from any grid you cannot from Kea. So How many Service providers do you use Joe maybe we should track them and Block you with those as well. You do Know a Ban isn’t the same as a block don’t you?

          • 1derworld

            Not sure I want to reply in detail being your comment may be removed, Border line slanderous. What I do is offer my personal opinion. You my friend have a thin skin and no business shaking your finger at anyone. BTW OAR’s from me always been from $50 USD to $100 USD please control your lying I do keep electronic receipts with over 70 sold to date.

          • Da Hayward

            only 70 over how many years? Wow you want the phone number of the local Rolls Royce dealer?
            as far as being “Border line slanderous” I think really you should look in the mirror. Most bullys like dishing it out but cant handle it when its given back to them.

          • AMEN

          • Da Hayward

            You wont have a receipt from us Joe we never bought any from you
            and now i’m done on this subject have a great night Joe and my apologies to HGB and its readers for losing my temper

          • Da Hayward

            PS my own conclusions . Well lets see Kea Works Digi Works . But all I ever see about your grids is stats posted Which personally I find questionable. How that for a conclusion.

          • 1derworld

            Control yourself, I don’t post stats stop lying.

    • Beth Reischl

      My apologies if we are a more family oriented business, and as such, my daughters graduation was a big deal for us. From now on, I will ensure I do not let the community know what my RL issues are that might affect their support, as it seems it should be used as a bludgeon for something that really had nothing to do with this particular subject at all.

      And I find it pretty odd that you state that the “whole grid shuts down”. That was not the case, nor has it ever been the case. There is someone ALWAYS on staff to deal with issues. Our Inventory systems are monitored 24 hours a day with alerts sent to our phones if something goes awry. I’m fairly sure, that although Mai and I were busy that day in RL, you were still able to log in? That does not constitute a shut down in my book.

    • I’m sorry to see this blog post about mini-grids used as a platform to promote complete and utter falsehoods about a specific grid that isn’t even mentioned in the article. The moderator has refused to act on the false accusations and innuendo, so I’m going to comment.

      I count what I would consider to be seven outright falsehoods in the first two paragraphs alone, and at least four in the first sentence. The development team is at least as large as the largest it has been at any time previously, and as the only full-time developer on staff, I’m still part of it too. Huge advancements have been made (many offered back to OpenSim and several critical fixes) over the years, and the MOSES team has contributed some useful stuff to Halcyon (mostly useful to MOSES though), but it is certainly NOT a US Army project. The MOSES team has contributed 28 of 1326 (about 2%) of the commits in the master branch. InWorldz staff have developed (and InWorldz has paid for the development of) approximately 99% of the Halcyon project, and that does not include the supporting projects. And not only has there been virtually no grid down time since the intentional shutdown for a security audit about 5 years ago, it’s completely ridiculous to claim that even a single user was impacted the day Beth took a single holiday, let alone that “the whole grid shut down”. It was still being monitored and cared for. But as I recall, that day was even more uneventful than usual.

      InWorldz adds the fixes, performance enhancements and major new features that the user community demands. Some features take longer because we have limited resources and want to do them correctly, not quickly, and in accordance with overall priorities, but it’s based on feedback from the users, which changes constantly.

      I think you’re either just intentionally badmouthing a grid that you claim to be a member of, or you have been misinformed or misled, or hopefully instead simply have some misconceptions that we can talk about. IM me in InWorldz if you actually have an account there, we can talk. I’d like to hear what you think the state of the nation is, where you heard that, and then let you know which parts of that are incorrect. Trust me, there’s a huge vibrant community, and lots happening. There are many reasons we work 7 days a week, and so I know it was a shock when one of us took a day off. 😉

      • lmpierce

        Just to clarify a couple points:

        Comments about moderation should not be posted in discussions and are usually deleted. In this case, the comment about moderation has presented an opportunity to express a distinction between what is, and is not, moderated.

        False accusations do not provoke moderation because in order to know that a comment is false, or that a false accusation has been made, we would need to research each and every claim presented, to test for validity. That’s not going to happen. We have neither the resources, nor the mandate. Furthermore, claims of false accusations do not themselves constitute proof of a transgression. Again, it would require research on our part to verify such counter-claims. Therefore, fact checking and claim validity is every reader’s responsibility when it comes to comments. However, if an article itself has an error, please contact Maria and she will respond to your concerns.

        The strongest action to counter false information is for the affected party to write a reply comment with accurate information. In the comment above by Jim, he has presented considerable information to counter claims in a previous comment, and, as it were, ‘set the record straight’. This is superior to a 3rd party attempting to ascertain what is valid, and what is invalid.

        • I’m glad this message was updated to clarify that false accusations *were* in fact one of the offenses listed in the Discussion Guidelines, but I’m sorry to hear that the guideline is self-policed by the person posting each message, and that you think “nothing” being done for years (and that rest of that drama bait message) possibly could be true.

          I’m also sorry to see this site just let “Metro” derail a topic and use this site as a weapon to try to create division. But I know you’re in a tough spot, it’s not easy, so beyond the reply I’ve already posted and this one, I’m not going to add any more fuel to the replies promoting grid conflicts.

          If anything I said earlier offended, I do apologize. I wish you lots of strength in your future moderation, but I won’t be a part of it going forward. I think the best way to deal with the negative folks and dividers is to ignore them and to promote the good things. There is plenty of positive news and wonderful things happening so going forward I’ll try to focus on those instead.

          • lmpierce

            Hi Jim, thanks for your thoughts on all this.

            Moderation cannot be an exact science because comments are often in gray areas that require some thoughtful interpretation. I do consider context, but assuming motives is always a tricky business, and as a rule my approach is to be diplomatic, even in the face of questionable statements and less than positive intentions.

            It is far more democratic to encourage readers and commenters to use good judgement – the best moderation is self-moderation. I’m here for those times when feelings overcome good judgement and indiscriminate expletives start to fly.

            I would just add that I appreciate your thoughts on ignoring negativity, but that too is a tricky situation. A negative opinion may be impossible to change, and in those cases, it might make sense to ‘let the readers decide for themselves’. However, adding better information to a discussion that is running off of hearsay or a misunderstanding is probably a better strategy. And even if a specific commenter isn’t convinced of your representations, most readers will figure out what is what – and your part in providing valid information is valuable and appreciated (remember, most readers of Hypergrid Business do not write or respond to comments, so there is a large silent group evaluating these discussions in silence).

      • OH BOY

        I find it rather odd Jim your response here, considering for several years yourself & several former Iwz founders were always here debated rather heavy how superior Iwz was technology wise,server code was all rewritten,basically you claimed almost everything was replaced with Iwz,
        my point being you have informed your residents many times over many years they had the best of the best compared to Opensimulator and again you have a resident wanting features you cannot give but he or she was told Iwz was the superior service, see what you did Jim? if anyone here is to blame it would be yourself my old friend, your grid is not only missing important land with other features Opensimulator has while adding new things such as Grid-within-grid but not only that but many features 2ndlife has rolled out the last few years.

        Basically you have told your residents they have the best, then they see another cool feature residents have like Grid-within-grid besides a real multi-grid marketplace & variable regions and they can’t have it they don’t understand so they beg you for them or complain anyplace someone will hear the deprived cries they have.

        How does Jim respond?

        “I count what I would consider to be seven outright falsehoods in the
        first two paragraphs alone, and at least four in the first sentence.”

        “Metro wrote
        Grid-within-grid
        a great option I think any new changes or features is better then
        nothing, as a resident of Inworldz we have sit stagnated the last few
        years with no real features that were promised for years ago, almost all
        the founders are gone as is most of the development team”

        Promise the moon people will expect the stars Jim, nothing you have feature wise in Iwz that we do not already have in the free metaverse or even back on the big grid. this is all my opinion and I think you have just set Metro up with higher then realistic expectations, then when that person complained you have made it out as attacks on your grid.

        Btw. the late Balpien Hammer proposed the idea in Iwz of a Grid-within-grid over 5 yr.s ago so the idea has floated around quite awhile, so Metros feelings are relevant missing out once again the toys the kool kids get.

        • 1derworld

          I suppose its been floating because it can not be done and legitimately be called GRID within a GRID. Not sure you can blame Jim or anyone else.

        • Da Hayward

          Dont worry about Joe OH BOY, he just sad because its not about him

          • 1derworld

            Don’t you have more regions to buy in Digiworldz, Why are you even posting in HGB.

          • Da Hayward

            smiles have a great day joe, I don’t buy regions in DigiWorldz. we lease servers

  • Da Hayward

    awww that comment got deleted too? Tell me is Joes reference to Nox being a scorned woman going to be deleted or are comments only reserved for “special” people?

  • noxluna

    The evolution of things

    Certain people are getting very hung up on the wording of “grid within a grid”. Thats not the way its always been! Thats not the way it is! Certain conditions must be met! Ok, lets see one of those conditions claimed is to be a GRID one must have one’s own currency. But we have gloebits now, which is one step in unifying all of opensim, as peeps can use it on any grid with gloebits enabled. So, no one does not need one’s own currency. Opensim has evolved and adapted to a need. Now, if some one want to say it still does..well then all grids using either NO currency or gloebits are by that definition NOT grids.

    As more people come over from the big grid (and certain other closed grids) they want the content they are used to having. Many of them do NOT want to be “pioneers”, this means they want their SL creations. We know this is popular as evidenced by the popularity of the seemingly botted sl content being offerred up. The SL creators, on their end, do not want to come to a grid that has a low concurrency, they want to make money NOW. Many of them weren’t in SL when it was starting out, have no concept of helping to build a community. So, opensim must evolve to attract them and to keep people from drifting off to other platform types. Make no mistake, I’m not saying that opensim HAS to do that to survive…as put forth there are plenty of ways to make a “grid” that are free etc. But what one has then is just that many more grids with low concurrency.

    Creating a community of grids under one umbrella helps to show a greater concurrency. It is an evolution of the virtual world platform as we know it. A unified, healthy opensim is a desirable thing. I pointed out in an earlier post…this type of virtual world, this platform is necessary to enable people to learn, expand and grow.

    Once upon a time people didn’t fly …..

  • lmpierce

    The expression ‘set the record straight’ was mine… Jim may not agree with that turn of phrase to describe his comment.

    People are free to share their experiences and thoughts in the comments. That’s what comments are for. In fact, however, comments are for everyone. Therefore, if you share an opinion, I am completely entitled to agree with it or refute it, and share that response as well. That’s what comments are for.

    It is to be expected, and is entirely reasonable, that business owners and managers and developers are going to respond to posts that reflect misinformation or misperceptions. Again, that’s what the comments are for.

    So, in my words, to ‘set the record straight’ is exactly what we should expect from others about any claim that we make if that claim has inaccuracies of fact or perception. Readers then see both sides (or rather, usually, several sides) of an issue or circumstance.

  • 1derworld

    Exactly so when we see a apple lets all call it a apple nothing more.

  • 1derworld

    Grid is a group of regions all under one roof supported by no other grid. Anything else within a grid is a Estate regardless of it server type or back end abilities, Its not that hard to understand. Anything else or worded differently is a marketing ploy at best.

    • Da Hayward

      awww joe you sounding like a broken record now.
      Its sad really

      • 1derworld

        Get over it and face reality, Snake oil salesmen always walk away with a smile.

        • Da Hayward

          you would know lol. Joe you really need to drop this you are showing your true colours.

          • 1derworld

            Speak for yourself, I already hear whispers. Careful what you type its the reflection of the real you know who 🙂

          • Da Hayward

            grins at joe.
            Hey joe I hope you have a great day I’m certain there is some good reading you can do .

  • Everyone is free to express opinions, and personally I do love constructive criticism. I see it as an opportunity, to make things better. And to clarify, I’m not one of the owners of InWorldz. I just write code there. So I do think when someone posts a claim that “nothing” has been done in years, developers are fleeing or whatever, etc, that it reflects on me and that it is appropriate that someone set the record straight. However, I think it’s best to leave that to the residents who know and love InWorldz, if they think it’s worth it. But divisive bait posts almost never work out well, and they are best ignored. And for me, there’s plenty of work to be done anyway.

  • Fli Girl

    I am by far no expert on opensim, but I do not see the point in this argument. If I wanted to open “my own grid” I would have to find servers to rent as I do not have the equipment to achieve this. Then I would have to hire a Tek person to set it up and maintain it, as I do not have the knowledge to do it. Digiworldz and others are offering this just rolled up in one package, and at a cheaper rate than you could get it separate. To me it seams the nay Sayers are just upset that there grid was not mentioned in this article. I have been to many of your grids and they are awesome we just choose to do ours a different way, that doesn’t make you any better than us or us any better than you just different. And who really cares if its a “grid within a grid” or a “self ran grid” we all come to opensim to make friends explore build and socialize, so who cares if my grid is managed by another grid or if you manage your own. If you don’t want to run your grid this way you do not have to, but no sense in saying this person is any less because he runs his different than you do… My 0.02$

    • 1derworld

      Understood, Problem is there is no such term in opensims “Grid within a Grid”. That’s the problem. Within a Grid is always called Estates some people just get that confused. Bottom line a misleading term causes issues with people not knowing correct terminology is all.

      • Fli Girl

        I can not speak for the author of the article but I believe that’s what the article is about, redefining the concept of a “Grid”. If the “Grid” owner of a “grid within a grid” has the same abilities as a “self maintained grid” owner then isn’t it still a grid? At one point there was no such thing as a “grid” at all, or even virtual worlds for that matter. It wasn’t until someone came up with the idea and made it a reality that the term “Grid” as we know it became a term. I’m sure when the first virtual world was created ppl said there’s no such thing but look at it now…

      • Rhia Yuhara

        I would heartily disagree Joe. I would say that “Grid within a Grid ” is now a new and known term in Opensim. It’s getting more well known as the days go by. Butch Arnold is very much a well respected pioneer in Opensim , having brought forth the permissions system we all use and depend on and creating the first grid with a working monetary system, and now the concept and implementation of the term “Grid within a Grid” Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t make it any less correct. The many people who have made the decision to come to Butch seeking to take advantage of this new and exciting program have been very happy with their decision. The whole point of this article was to tell everyone how happy the people who are using this service are and you decided to get ridiculously picky about the terminology. The terminology is new and is now known and you disagreeing with it doesn’t change that fact.

        • 1derworld

          That Term “Grid within A Grid” Was made up by Alex from Aviworlds long ago as a Joke to Da Hayward. It was a concept thought of in Jest being Hayward wanted 1000 some regions for his SL planes. Now it simply can’t be done and be a Legitimate name to be wildly used its called Estates for all you new people to opensims

          • Da Hayward

            ummm we have over 1400 now joe and didn’t you some time ago boast about a 30 x 30 VAR which is 900 standard region equivalents?
            was also stated earlier that we had more regions in Aviworlds that is incorrect .
            Sl planes now that is a completely different subject and off topic. Maybe jointly we can ask Maria and David to do an article on the the scripting to make this happen? Although some very talented people have worked out the crossing issues in Bullet and ubode.
            what think Joe. it would be of interest to the readers don’t you think?

          • 1derworld

            Sim crossing been around a long time, Bravo for digiworldz to recently have that option 🙂

          • Vehicles crossing border using bullet physics has been part of my bag of tricks since 2013.
            It has always been a feature of DigiWorldz Joe.. have you ever been able to sort that out on your grid yet? Last I knew you couldn’t get it to work.

          • 1derworld

            Like I responded to Hayward been around a long time was done with Vegaslon a while back its no big deal. If one has massive Vars it is not a necessity. Answer: No I can cross from Bullet into Ubode being I run Both, My Opensim I run is customized with Freaky Tech, Seth Nygard and Freds help I do many things But I suppose you may think those fellas have no clue what there doing huh?

          • #Troll @ Joe

  • Arielle

    “Grid within a grid” seems an interesting idea and certainly looks to have benefits for communities taking advantage of cheap hosting prices and stuff. The only thing missing I feel where it could truly be considered a Grid within a Grid, is an ability to turn of teleports to regions outside of the internal grid. Such a limit would be a benefit to communities that may have underage residents, students and types of users that are best confined to the community grid for various reasons. Along with that, the ability to turn off incoming teleports from the main grid residents (already possible?) would go a long way to truly being able to define it as a Grid within a Grid imo.

    • noxluna

      Being as the concept of grid within a grid was to help support the community spirit we have not implemented such a feature (blocking inter-grid regions). However if in time such a feature is needed, it can be added down the road. The service is always evolving to meet the desires of our users.. So definitely, anything can be added if it makes sense.
      For instance: based on customer requests we have added the ability to ban a specific user in a specific region via ip address, avatar name, and grid. This is separate from grid wide bans.. as we can ban a specific grid, or user in only a specific user’s regions while leaving all other grid region unaffected.

      • Alex Ferraris

        Still not a grid. It is an estate with enhanced features that allow certain maneuvers a nice feature. But it is not a grid within a grid sorry.

        • noxluna

          alex, do you have a webpage yet for your grid? registration page?

          stats? currency? if you don’t have any of those (and last i saw you didn’t have them) you, by your own words, are not a grid. sorry.

          • 1derworld

            Ok lol, That comment has nothing to do with whats going on in digiworldz. Can only buffalo so many.

          • He could have all of them things if his A$$ would pickup the phone @alexferraris:disqus Pickup your darn phone sometimes !!! Let’s Talk UBER! I got signed up!

    • Hi Arielle,

      Thank you for the feedback.
      The features in this offering have been constantly evolving based on requests from our users.
      We continue to add features at the request of our users, for example, most recently we added the ability for the users to ban a specific user based on avatar name, ip address, or grid. This means a “Grid Within a Grid” owner can define a ban on only his/her regions affecting a specific user or grid, while leaving the rest of the grid/regions inside DigiWorldz unaffected.
      When we first started offering the service, the custom signup page would only allow the use of the default DigiWorldz avatars, but now a user can define their own custom avatars to use on this page, or continue to use the default DigiWorldz avatars, or a combination of both.
      As long as we have a desire for a new feature and it makes sense, it’s just a matter of adding/changing/testing code to implement the ideas/features.
      We are always looking at ways to make our services better and user feedback is a very important part of this. In many ways, the features and services we offer within the DigiWorldz grid have been defined by requests from our users.. as we get requests, if they make sense and we have the ability to implement them, we do it.
      We are always looking for new ideas as we want to provide features users want/need to make our platform more valuable than the next.

      Some users who have been around a long time may remember back before OpenSim had any kind of permissions system(2008), at the time, I had just created the 3rd Rock Grid and any user could login to any grid and edit, take, or copy any object, regardless of who the owner or creator was, and the developers at the time had taken the position they were not interested in adding protection from these abilities, but it was me who implemented the first basic permissions system in the 3rd Rock Grid so we could provide some sort of protections for our users and I also lobbied the developers to add this basic feature into OpenSim so everyone would have this basic sort of protection.
      I followed that up later by making 3rd Rock Grid the first OpenSim grid with a working economy where users could buy/sell land and other objects.

      The point is, I’m always looking for ways to make OpenSim more appealing to users, I always listen to our users and I help whenever and wherever I can.

      Feedback, no matter who it is from, or the tone of it, is very important to me. I listen to it all, I consider all sides and it too helps to guide the evolution of the things I do. Good or bad, no matter if I agree or disagree, I consider it all, it’s the type of person I am.
      So I appreciate the feedback everyone has provided in these comments, even the comments I disagree with.
      Thank you.

    • 1derworld

      I suppose when Dreamland Metaverse rents a individual dedicated servers and its in Osgrid we now can call those Estates a Grid within Grid. Now that and all this “Marketing Ploy” That only benefits Digiworldz numbers is straight up comedy. Its all false advertising and hope the smart shopper, reads into all this and see its not true and not new.

      • Da Hayward

        Laughing so hard. you are so comical!
        read back through all your comments.

        • 1derworld

          Try to come up with original lines will ya geez

      • what do you have Against Digitworldz? Ohh Wait you have a go at anyone that does not agree with you 100%

  • noxluna

    Words or terms that never existed in opensim:
    sculpties
    mesh
    bento
    gloebitz
    VAR regions
    hypergrid
    stand alone grid
    region crossing vehicles
    npc’s
    sailable boats

    Yet, and I assume since we have all this working on Digiworldz other
    grids have them all as well, they exist and are an unthought of convenience in
    opensim now. The fact that they did not once exist in openism does not lessen
    their existence now.

    • 1derworld

      Sure, Only one thing Grid within a Grid is not possible as we all know the true definition of a grid.I do think it may scare more than entice.

  • Kip Lucent

    “Grid within a grid” the name of a concept that works for people and I am sure people know what they are getting themselves into when they are deciding to take it on, I am far from savvy when it come to virtual worlds although been here 10 years and I know what it means.

    To get bent out of shape what is essentially a marketing term, is a little petty, although it does make for great car crash comment reading, so thank you I have enjoyed it.

    Oh I should mention that I am in Digiworldz, and I love it!
    so I apologise for the squeaky voice, this cheerleader uniform doesn’t fit like it used to!

    • lol.. thanks Kip, the outfit does look a bit uncomfortable.

    • 1derworld

      I figured as much, You being in Digiworldz that is. And the planet is flat to I bet, Silly

      • Kip Lucent

        It is in here.

  • 1derworld

    LOL Everyone from Digiworldz posting, Well all I can say is keep putting out false terms and false hopes at the end of the day if its in your backyard (Digiworldz) Then it must be Digiworldz not everyone in Opensims is fooled so easily.

    • Da Hayward

      Yes Joe we were sharing something that works for us with the rest of open sim…lets see you do the same

    • Hi Joe,

      Let it go buddy, you’re beginning to look terrible in this.

      • 1derworld

        My Job is done here, People will now look into facts before making a mistake that there is no such thing called “Grid within a Grid”.. its called Estate nothing more 🙂 I think your the one starting to look terrible with this sham/Marketing ploy. Buddy 🙂

        • Hi Joe,
          I have explained everywhere within these posts what this is, and I have explained many times I acknowledge this idea isn’t “Really” a grid and I have provided a link for everyone to clearly see the same on our FAQ page.
          I have explained that we make sure that each interested user is completely aware of what this is as we don’t want to end up with an unhappy customer. This is a “Phrase” we’ve decided to use to draw attention to this specific service and it works great for us. You don’t have to like it, it’s your right.

          I’m not sure what part of all of this confuses you? I’m sure you can understand simple concepts and this is all it is, a concept.

          It’s very clear really and I have several satisfied customers using the service.
          Thank you for your opinions and feedback.

          • 1derworld

            Only Problem I had with this Topic is the name the insinuation that Estates are somehow now being called a Grid which you of all people should know that’s not possible. I really wonder why you simply Don’t call it what it is. Yes Digiworldz offers a great service, Server wise, Backend, Registration page and money service. Now with that said lets get the terms corrected and maybe not mislead. Its a Custom Estate within Digiworldz, Bottom line. Do everyone to date a service and change the wording.

          • lol.. have a great evening Joe.

          • Da Hayward

            Well you can call it what you like but i think I will continue calling it a “grid within a grid” it rolls of the tongue nicely and works for us. so wheres the problem?
            Enjoy your day and night Joe. think about the aircraft article I am certain you could contribute to it and that is not meant as sarcasm

          • 1derworld

            On a brighter note, Sure we can talk Aircraft’s )

          • Da Hayward

            Great
            now the real world needs me excuse me for a bit

          • Don’t let the lil wheezel get to you man! His own Words I plant the seed and watch it grow… He enjoys this type of Fame Such a shame really

        • Da Hayward

          Whats your job?

        • Joe if your not attacking one person its another why do you not just stop being an ArseHat and enjoy life a bit ?

      • Jessica Random

        Sorry Terry,

        The problem is that some people HAVE been confused by this and thought the service was a “true grid”. Let me just be clear what I mean by “true grid” as there really is some confusion (this is why using marketing terms that state the impossible is such a bad idea). When I say a grid, I mean “A region of regions served up by a simulator or simulators in one of more estates that connect to their OWN Robust service. They have a unique URL and that url is (usually) appended to their name when they leave their grid to go hypergridding.

        Unless your “grid in a grid” is like that – then it is not a “complete” grid. I am not going to talk about estates (I know I have before – but I think my meaning was lost) as they are irrelevant. A “complete” or “true” grid will consist of one or more estates, and I would imagine your “Grid within a Grid” consists or one or more estates.

        I think where some of the confusion as to what people are saying about it comes down to what people see as “available” in an estate. I believe people are assuming that when others are saying “its not a grid” they are saying it is just an estate with standard estate tools. I don’t know all the tools you make available and I can certainly believe it is more than are generally available for an estate. With that extra functionality – it may even offer everything that a grid offers – apart from a few things.

        Any grid within a grid you offer will have to abide by your TOS (I cant imagine you not insisting on this as you are still hosting it). I accept that this would be the case (but slightly differently) if you were hosting a complete discrete grid for someone (with no relationship to Digiworldz). I also do not anticipate you giving people on your “grid within a grid” accounts complete god powers. I cannot imagine you allowing someone on Digiworldz to TP to another region onto one of these “grids” that are still actually CONNECTED to Digiworldz, dropping the item on the floor, obtaining admin/got powers and changing all the permissions. I am sure your content creators would be very interested in knowing you were allowing that to happen! I therefore do not believe you are.

        It may be that god powers and TOS are not issues people are bothered about and so thats great. But your grid within a grid is not a complete descrete grid, it does not connect to its own robust (or alternative) backend and its own asset server. Simulators host regions. Simulators connect to Grid servers. It’s not the simulators that make it a grid – but the grid services and unless these are completely separate from digiworlds, this is not a “grid” in the strict sense.

        I can see the logic behind calling it such – there arent many visible differences -but the differences are actually important.

        People keep having a go at others like Joe for doggedly insisting it isnt a grid, but this is unfair. He is correct. It isnt a grid in the strict sense. It may offer a great deal of functionality – that is not in question.

        If it is nighttime, and I turn on lots of lights and make it look like daytime, does it become day? No – it just looks that way. This is the same with the grid within a grid. It may look like a grid…. but it isn’t

        • lmpierce

          You’ve reminded me of a riddle that I read once: If a dog has four legs and a tail, and you call the tail a leg, how many legs does it have? The correct answer is, of course, ‘four’… calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg. Of course word play is often at the heart of marketing, politics and comment sections!

    • Fli Girl

      Again im not sure what you are talking about.. I have seen no one try to fool anyone, Butch explained how it works and even gave you a link to the faq’s.. If you don’t agree with the terminology that’s fine and your welcome to your opinion. But you are taking it to far when you try to say digi is trying to fool ppl. They have completely explained how it works.. And for the record I’ve only seen two ppl who have a problem with the term in all these post, so I would say Opensim doesn’t have a problem with it just Jo and Alex..

      • 1derworld

        Look closer only people getting involved in the drama are from digi and there friends seriously? LOL most I talked to on the side lines want to stay away. Its a Digiworldz thing no one else’s and Hayward bought it.

        • Da Hayward

          Joe drop it now you are getting personal. Yes i have bought into it because I like the term and the concept. So at the end of the day it means DigiWorldz has a service I and some others I might add are prepared to pay for. If someone doesn’t want or require this service no one is forcing them to take it. So again what is the issue?, you seem to be basing your argument around DigiWorldz offers it. I just have no idea where your motives truly lay.

          • 1derworld

            Ok my apologies no more attacks, *shakes hand 🙂

          • Da Hayward

            Shakes hand

    • Joe Joe Joe… You Just can’t keep yourself out of trouble huh? LULZ

  • 1derworld

    People in Opensims are so easily fooled by new ventures, Bottom line is Grid in a Grid is a farce at best. Lets stick with what it really is Estates with a Grid. Any other term is a sorta bait and switch where as its only Estates with promises of a Grid. Can we hear from Opensims rather than the occupants of Digiworldz.

    • Da Hayward

      or hear from anybody else except Joe builder? Laughing my socks off Joe

      • 1derworld

        Many do want to get involved by the falsehood of this subject its so called option, The whispers behind the scenes are, Well lets say not pleasant

    • Da Hayward

      Also fooled by some rather suspect creators too aren’t they?
      Ok lets get off subject for a moment.
      A personal question Joe, of course you don’t have to answer but haven’t you got something far more constructive to occupy your time? like helping Alex, or helping to benefit Open sim as a whole?
      I think it is sad that you put so much effort into criticising others. There are people who can help with that you know.

      • 1derworld

        Thank you, I do just that and offer things for the ones who have no creative ability. I do not make up terms to benefit my status in opensims I do like to be alone in Virtual Worlds being its ONLY a place for me to create Epic builds for mainly myself to enjoy. I do have a RL unlike many here

        • Da Hayward

          Sorry Joe you dont you sell things you dont offer unless you get something out of it , as I said to alex I can comment on this because I have experienced it. I have also seen your epic builds but really that is for another article Do you wish to continue?

          • 1derworld

            Sure lets talk about what you build or what you accomplished in opensims? You have never been to my grid for fact. If you say Airports I have and had that beat long ago. I can do a video and match up with yours. You see I have no region restrictions like yourself. My planes are many not copies Of one 10x over. I think I ended your rant on this OFF subject.

          • Da Hayward

            Wrong we don’t have Airports and we don’t definitely have yours guess why?, if we have anything it is an airfield terminology joe get it right.
            Also none of the aircraft we use are copybotted .

          • 1derworld

            If you say so, 🙂

    • Hi Joe,

      It’s not bait and switch when we clearly define what the service really is and your comments here imply that we are misleading our users and are not really giving them what we have offered, which is clearly not the case.
      Each user clearly understand what they have or will be getting. We haven’t yet had any complaints and those who have and/or are using are completely happy with what they have.

  • Alex Ferraris

    I am going to create a grid within a grid withing a grid and within another grid. Even without having their own stats and even if they are all in AviWorlds I said they are grids and so they are…This is what I see happening here..
    A grid is a grid .
    An estate or community is an estate or community..
    Period.!

    • Da Hayward

      Can a closed Grid which allows registration by the email to the owner be classed as a grid? or should it be classed as a private playroom?
      Splitting hair’s over a name is beneath you Alex. Or you kissing up to Joe?

      • Alex Ferraris

        Da; I am not kissing up to JOE BUILDER. I am giving here my opinion which happens to be the correct one. That’s all. What happened to my grid has nothing to do with this subject here. That I think really is hitting below the belt and I am not talking about AviWorlds. I am the first one to say I MADE MISTAKES and YES it has failed many times…
        I am talking about your grid within a grid here…
        It is not a grid. All it has are a few functionalities that make your ESTATE or COMMUNITY inside DigiWorldz more manageable. That’s all.
        Lets not call color GREEN a YELLOW one…sorry but it is green.

        • Da Hayward

          Alex You are were a good guy, your opinion is only flawed by one aspect, Kea, Virtual mecca, Janas, and Space life etc can not be classed as an estate by AviWorlds or SL definitions. This is what you are not seeing. I can have an informed opinion on this because I have experienced both. All of these communities if that is a better term have far more direct control over how they operate than estates. Yes we share a common log on for one main reason and it is one you wanted to pursue yourself 1 year to 2 years ago and that’s a common unity within Open sim.
          We can all split hairs over things in these comments but really where does it get us? Up to a few months ago I was very critical to Cliff Hopkins and Genesis, but on reflection I do owe them an apology. They are striving to go forward, not marking time or going backwards.
          Let’s just agree that for anything to work we need to co exist and make an appearance of working together at least. Not pick holes in something as silly as a name or term.

          • 1derworld

            Very good, So from now on stop calling something that’s not possible or remotely possibly with this whole topic which in fact belongs in digiworldz forum not for the public to criticize its falsehood. This is something that’s silly at best to even joke about. Its simply a custom estate feature in digiworldz. I don’t think you need to shed more dark lite on Digiworldz with something not possible.

          • Da Hayward

            Joe there are whispers behind the seen would you like me to suggest an article to Maria about those. You have one major issue. That is you can not help stirring things up you are not qualified to comment on this Joe and the simple reason for that is that you have not experienced it. you cant have you have been blocked from entering a few grids . So tell all of us how do you know what Digiworldz is doing without experiencing it first hand? or once again are you just commenting to fool people into Joe Builder is the pinnacle of open sim. I will complement you on one thing though at least you are not referring to your self in the third party as you have in other threads

  • Alex Ferraris

    Still not a grid. I can do that with single regions or multiple regions..Nothing new.

    • Hi Alex,

      Would you agree a “Real” grid then would be expected to have their own signup page?

      • Alex Ferraris

        Tricky question Butch.?
        A registration page is not the only characteristic of a GRID. There are many and the most important one is complete independence from any other platform or in more clear words..not being INSIDE another platform.
        The grid within a grid CONCEPT (your own words posted here) ; does give some sort of independence but it is not 100%.
        As long as these regions are located inside DigiWorldz virtual world; they are not a grid. They are an estate, a community. Not a grid. Even with their own registration page and start up avatars.
        To say that an estate inside a grid is a grid is really diminishing the word grid and what it stands for. Specially when it is for marketing purposes and financial gains.
        The word GRID in my vocabulary means something and it cannot be changed simply because of marketing plot.

        • 1derworld

          Careful there are charlatans trying to peddle off snake oil, Don’t be fooled.

  • lmpierce

    Time to rein in the comments that are slipping into personal attacks. Debate the issue to your heart’s content, but criticizing people for commenting here, or expressing derision about character will cause such comments to be deleted.

    • Da Hayward

      yes sorry impierce my apologies.

    • 1derworld

      Understood

  • Da Hayward

    Looks like more comments were deleted, guess there are special people