Content theft quietly demoralizing for creators

Although many creators do not speak up, theft and illegal distribution of their content is hurting their morale and creativity, and may even be driving some out of OpenSim altogether.

One creator of mesh avatars, who did not want to be named, saw her products distributed full perms across multiple grids and said she no longer trusts those grids and does not want to come to OpenSim as a result.

Many creators are reluctant to speak up or file takedown requests, said Noxluna Nightfire, who has been involved in some recent high-profile campaigns against infringing content.

“I did go into Second Life and tried to reach some of these creators,” she told Hypergrid Business. “So far though, most of the other creators have not done anything.”

“Redistribution of ripped items is deplorable and puts you on the same level as the person who actually ripped it,” another creator, Linda Kellie, told Hypergrid Business. “You not only hurt the creator when you do this but you hurt the grid you are on.”

Kellie is well-known in OpenSim for her free, open-source content, including starter clothing and avatar items and region OAR files, and content creation kits, which can all be found on Zadaroo.

In most cases, creators do not like to engage in this time consuming and cost prohibitive activity of chasing grids. Some do not feel that it is necessary to pursue cases on the matter at all.

“I have been creating since 2005 in Second Life and since 2007 in OpenSim,” said Kelly. “I just don’t believe in lawsuits for trivial things and I would never go to the trouble to file one for my own intellectual property.”

Many OpenSim users have individually also been vocal on social media and here about illegal redistribution of creators’ content, from Moonrise Azalee to Zangrid’s Suzan Mönnink to VirTec’s Virtouse Lilienthal to Candi Collins of Genesis Metaverse to creators such as Noxluna Nightfire. The list is endless at OpenSim Virtual, OpenSim Everything and other OpenSim forums.

Why takedown requests matter

Under U.S. laws, and those of most other countries, the original content creators need to file take-down requests in order for their content to be removed. While sites and grids can act proactively if they wish, if they suspect that some content is infringing, they are not required to.

In addition, it can be hard to tell whether content was, in fact, distributed with permission, or if it is just a good imitation of the original product.

It is the responsibility of the content creators to report illegal content to the grid management for actions to be taken, Metropolis grid founder Lena Vanilli told Hypergrid Business.

“In case of a valid complaint issued by a verifiable source — not just some random competitor — we have procedures in place to take the content, region and avatar down,” she said. “Just contact our in-world support or send an email to [email protected] to file a complaint. Please remember this grid is based on voluntary work so it may take some time to verify the issue and how to handle it.”

A couple of cross-grid organizations are working on addressing the issue, including the Hypergrid Chamber of Commerce.

“In my opinion the best way would be a ‘quality seal’ for freebie regions,” said Vanilli.

She suggests that a committee made up of representatives from the major grids could identify region owners who violate the rules, and ban them from their grids.

“People should learn that virtual reality has laws, just as the real world,” she said.

She isn’t the only one.

“I believe the grid owners should work together when it comes to this item,” former Zangrid owner Suzan Mönnink wrote in a post. “Like when one grid bans one person for copybotting or using copybotted items we should let each other know share the details of these people and ban them all at once. Hypergrid was meant for people to meet each other and to share and have fun, not to steal.”

These items were allegedly being hosted and used on various OpenSim grids. (Image courtesy ZanGrid.)

Sometimes, what looks like content theft is actually simple mistakes.

For example, if a creator uses an avatar from another grid to set up their store, via hypergrid teleport, that could result in incorrect owner or creator identification when the region is reloaded.

“The way to avoid this issue is to have the user create a local account on the grid or standalone and then rez their items,” said DigiWorldz grid owner Terry Ford told Hypergrid Business.

What consumers can do to help

To make OpenSim more welcoming for creators, and a safe place for them to distribute their content, consumers can do more to ensure that the products they use are legitimate.

“You won’t know the origin of all items you pick up around the hypergrid,” said Kellie. “But when someone tells you that something you have is questionable then it’s your responsibility as a person with morals and standards to seek out the origin or stop using it and if you find it is ripped you should tell the creator — I’ve done this many times myself.”

There are also other ways to tell if content might not be legal.

“One way to tell that content is likely to be stolen is if the same content is available on the Second Life marketplace or the Kitely Market and it costs money there,” said Hypergrid Business publisher Maria Korolov. “Where marketplaces don’t allow freebies — like the Kitely Market — the creators will set the price to the absolute minimum, and might also include a link to where people can get the content for free in the description or in an attached notecard.”

Creators can also do their part to help buyers know when they’re buying legal versions. For example, they could include a notecard with their products that explains the license terms and links to the creator’s website or official online or in-world stores.

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David Kariuki

David Kariuki is a technology journalist who has a wide range of experience reporting about modern technology solutions. A graduate of Kenya's Moi University, he also writes for Cleanleap, and has previously worked for Resources Quarterly and Construction Review. Email him at [email protected].

179 Responses

  1.' Da Hayward says:

    Very good points, While I am totally against content theft I also know that a few original SL creators which I have contacted about their creations being made available in Open Sim by other’s have had an almost “Why should I care” attitude. I still maintain that although we can warn people about it or disallow such items on our region’s it is up to the original creator to take action. After all how am I to know if or if not the creator has verbally given permission for person “x” to use it.

  2.' JozeeTungsten says:

    Until there is a ubiquitous opensim economy, the only way to stop botting is for grids to ban botters. Which just results in banned people starting their own grids. Even with an economy the opensim market is so tiny anything produced just for that market would need to be way overpriced to make it worthwhile to make. Mesh items are very labor intensive, and require a further investment in software and in training. On top of which, there is a lot of anti-capitalist sentiment in the community. And second lifers could care less about opensim. In fact, it costs so much to upload a botted freebie to second life (so I am told) you may as well just buy one from the market. Nobody cares. Don’t worry about it.

  3.' 1derworld says:

    Majority of SL creators simply do not care, They know there is no real commerce in opensims and people bringing objects into opensims do not effect there SL sales. I myself have been going back into SL since 2010 and speaking to many many SL creators and most say they do not care. So yes is it bad for the very few in opensims to compete with this Answer is NO. But this is how its always been many need to just accept that’s how VW operates. Not to mention the 100’s of people wearing the bento heads, Hard to see what is legit and what is not. I look at them and say there all ripped regardless of what Grid there from. This topic is really old news.

    • Really? You think that the creators in SL don’t care? I’ve informed many of them about the ripped items I find of theirs on OpenSim and they are all outraged. I think you misspoke. They do care. They just know that it’s useless for them to try and do anything about it. And it does affect their business because there are people who are or will be leaving SL to come to OpenSim where they can get the same thing as they have in sl but FREE. I’m not saying that “many” people will leave but there are some. So some of their customers will be gone.
      But, the main thing in my opinion is not the money or the business that they have that is suffering. It’s the way a creator can feel deflated when they put hard work into something and then someone comes along and claims it as their own and distributes it free and full perms when that is not how they intended it. Especially something such as mesh bodies. Those are crazy hard to make and time consuming. And then some slacker comes around and distributes it free. Or worse yet they put it for sale or they add it to an OAR and sell the OAR!
      And you’re right. ….. it’s old news. It should have been taken care of already and not be news at all. But most of OpenSim has the mentality of “Hey, I didn’t steal it and it’s already out there free to grab so I may as well put it up for people to take free too so that people like me more because I have good stuff to give away. And hey! I may as well use it too so that my avatar can look sexy and people will like me more!”
      I guarantee you will see more OpenSim people upset at those who stand up against this (like me) than at the people who participate in the promotion of it (like …. well you know).

  4.' Joe Nickence says:

    Ideally, there will be a time when creators will be able to offer their products with blockchain protection. Until that happens, this will continue to be an ongoing issue.

    •' Alan Blogger says:

      As much of a nice idea as that sounds, I don’t ever see that happening. If you can see it or hear it.. It can be copied.

    •' Cinder Biscuits says:

      “Blockchain protection” isn’t a thing, and even if it was some how a magical solution to the problem, this is opensource software and it could be easily bypassed by rouge grids.

      •' Alan Blogger says:


      •' Han Held says:

        I wouldn’t necessarily call them “rouge”. I don’t know blockchain, but it sounds like a nice way to set up a monopoly that only benefits a few people. To the extent that that is the case, breaking away and forming a separate grid or providing an alternate space isn’t “rouge” but morally right.

        Not as an excuse for theft, but to get out from the thumb of monopolists and would-be authoritarians.

  5.' Han Held says:

    So -opensim has so little going on out here in the hypergrid that you lot are forced to rehash the same old topic time and time again. Is that about right?

    As far as LK goes; I thought she got mad because someone took her items to secondlife and posted them onto the *secondlife marketplace*, claimed ownership and threatened to sue people.

    I never understood the connection between some SL idiot doing that and blaming it on those of us here in opensim. Maybe I don’t have the whole story. But it’s hard to find out the facts when everything on the situation gets deleted, ya know?

    LK s the only *opensim creator* I’m aware of who has left opensim over theft. Selea Core left because she was getting hassled about technical decisions others made, and Chic Aeon described her situation over on the secondlife forums thusly;

    I pretty much came to terms with the issue [copybot] and I still sell though Kitely although I am no longer maintaining a presence in Opensim. I mostly left not because of business but because people couldn’t stop bickering and I finally just got too tired of it all. The fact that all my friends there had left played a big part also.

    Basically the highly toxic nature of the opensim community drove her away. And to be blunt, who can blame her?

    The rest of what the article describes are people like the creator of Maitreya who never had plans to come out here in the first place, and are describing the reasons why they hadn’t considered that. But the wording in the article is misleading on that point.

    I will point out once again that I saw this coming. I anticipated the proscription advised in the article … that is, to have the Hypergrid Chamber of Commerce put in the position to give some sort of stamp of approval
    …to position themselves as the sole arbiter of what is and isn’t legitimate content.

    The next logical step after will be to use that position to leverage their authority to push out competing content (first they came for the copybotters …then they came for the freebies…then they came for their competitors).

    Y’all can go down that garden path if you like, but it only leads to one place and you won’t find hordes of paying customers and merchants there. You’ll only find a scorched wasteland of broken dreams, acrimony and lies.

    •' Alan Blogger says:

      I agree with you 110%

    • In case someone reads your comment and thinks that I was threatening to sue someone I want to make it clear that I was not. I wasn’t upset that someone was selling my things on the SL marketplace. They sell my stuff on the Kitely marketplace too. And I have no rules for that so I don’t care that someone was selling my things. I really don’t. I was upset that the person was claiming a copyright and “she” was threatening a DMCA on anyone that didn’t follow “her” rules for it. And it became apparent that what I set out to do was no longer going to work. Making things for people with no rules so that NOBODY had to feel any pressure to stick by some TOS and they could feel a sense of freedom was no longer an option once I realized that someone else could just put their own TOS on it and undermind everything that I set out to do.
      I did leave OpenSim for theft reasons though. But not because of any theft against me. But because of the way many people in OS seem to view the theft as just being commonplace and therefore OK to participate in. It’s just a “It’s just too hard to clean up so let’s just live in the filth” mentality.

      And I know of a few people who have left OpenSim because they couldn’t stomach seeing all of the ripped content. So I know I am not the only one. Sometimes it’s like trying to stop a train wreck and sooner or later you realize that everyone wants the train to wreck and there is nothing more you can do but just turn away.

      And for the record (Since David didn’t mention this in his article). My quotes are from months ago when he contacted me about this article. I was still a part of OpenSim at the time. I’m not sure why he ran it now. Although I do still stand by my original thoughts on the matter as you can see.

      •' Han Held says:

        Thanks for replying -I do know people too who are put off by the botting, but they either weren’t actively creating or like Chic Aeon they left for other reasons (usually boredom or in-fighting).

        I didn’t mean to imply -even accidentally…that you were the one who was threatening lawsuits.; I meant that it was the person falsely claiming to be the creator who was threatening to sue people.

        >”Sometimes it’s like trying to stop a train wreck and sooner or later you realize that everyone wants the train to wreck and there is nothing more you can do but just turn away.”

        I feel the same way, regarding the infighting, the IP apathy, the relentless fighting over pennies, and the relentless fighting over petty power (stretching back to the osgrid fiasco all the way to this current power grab).

        It’s a combination of people being deluded, and self-aware people who simply do not care as long as they get to be the king of the mountain. You put it perfectly -for different reasons too many folks in the community want it to crash and burn (out of spite? to be the king of the world? reasons vary, I’m sure).

        Here’s the thing; there is no other platform that gives one top to bottom control, that is as empowering to end users and consumers and allows them to create their own spaces ..for therapy (it gets me through the dark of winter and through cabin fever, it gives agoraphobics a social outlet) and after all the stuff you’ve been through it’s understandable that you’d say “nuts to this” …but for me, personally, the community is gravy. I still get a lot out of the platform and while part of that is undoubtedly unhealthy (which has made me focus more on RL), part of it is that I treasure the baby and haven’t reached the point where the bathwater makes me chuck it out the window.

        The answer doesn’t lie in giving some jackboot absolute power. The answer lies in making the community healthier and to stop stabbing each other in the back so that we actually nurture a creative ecosystem. Of course given the delusions and dysfunctions that will never happen …but that is the only thing that will help.

        • I don’t think the answer is giving “some jackboot absolute power” either. I do think something akin to a neighborhood watch would be good though. Just to hold people accountable. And any grid that is a commercial grid should be willing to participate in something that helps them watch each others backs for the sake of their users. I’m not sure how that would work but ….baby steps.
          SL has a lot of botting going on too. I know that is stated over and over again. But at least there I feel like they are giving it their best shot. I flagged a Marketplace post there (not important what the infringement was) but it got taken down within minutes. They are a closed grid so they only have to worry about their own rules and their own game. Hypergrid makes that harder in OpenSim. But there has to be a way to have Hypergrid AND clean it up. Because most of OpenSim is connected by the Hypergrid then they really have no choice but to work together to clean it up …. if they want it cleaned up.
          And before anyone jumps on me let me be clear that I am not badmouthing hypergrid (although I have in the past) . I just think that given all of that freedom and having less boundaries means it’s going to get messy. Someone has to find a way to bring people together and clean up the mess because it’s just getting worse by the minute. I’m willing to bet that most people would be willing to stay in OpenSim even without the ripped Maitreya bodies and Blueberry clothing.
          And I agree with you 100% about the infighting. That is probably even a bigger problem than the theft. So many strong people out there with loud voices and we all want to be heard. And it’s easy to get too passionate about things in the heat of the moment. So I doubt there will be a solution for that anytime soon.
          And I appreciate the opportunity to post my thoughts here. I wish you all in OpenSim the best of luck. I really miss the “old” OpenSim. 🙁

          •' Han Held says:

            A neighborhood watch isn’t a bad idea -but then how do you prevent it from either becoming a vigilante problem or a club that some group uses to try to push out folks they don’t like?

            I do agree that the answer has to come from the community and I think that we could use word of mouth to push people away from botted material and towards supporting creators that are already here (plug; there’s a mesh body project that is made by Shin Engine called “ruth 2.0” which looks like a promising replacement for maitreya, and would be a good thing to steer folks toward).

            Using reputation and word of mouth would be a more egalitarian way to go about this; but then that would require people out here to *care* and that is the crux of the problem. Too many folks think they’re being defiant by copy-botting (“keep opensim free” …but ignoring the fact that they’re playing into the “everything is for sale or it’s theft” mindset) or they simply think it’s more important “to not look like it’s 2004” o.O;;

            I want to preserve the freedom of the hypergrid but I agree that something needs to be done. It has to be on a hearts-and-minds level and I have no idea how to go about that.

            I’m glad that you did come and post your thoughts. You’ve brought a lot of us a lot of happiness and your items helped (and still help) me daily to create things and made my SL and HG enjoyable. Given the bitterness (I have my own -believe me) I totally empathize with where you’re at and I wish blessings, good luck and that you find something that gives you happiness and fulfillment. 🙂

          • I wasn’t going to post anymore but I wanted to answer your question:

            You asked “A neighborhood watch isn’t a bad idea -but then how do you prevent it from either becoming a vigilante problem or a club that some group uses to try to push out folks they don’t like?”

            I think the answer is to give them no power other than to inform. Nobody can do anything without a legal DMCA anyway. The neighborhood watch thing means nobody even has to be in charge (other than maybe someone being admin of a website …. a secretary of sorts). Maybe like a Hypergrid neighborhood watch website where if something is found to be ripped (going through the proper process of contacting the original creator to make sure) then it’s posted and people are aware then that the item they may be using or passing around isn’t a legal copy.
            And so it doesn’t get into drama it could just be the same outline for everything….. 1. The item in question is blah blah blah 2. This is a picture of the item blah blah blah 3. This item is confirmed by the original creator to be ripped/botted etc. They don’t even have to put where they found the item although shamming is always good in my book lol.

            If grid owners really care then they would visit the website often and stay informed as well.

            I have to tell you though that I don’t think it will make a huge difference. I have told people straight up “That body and dress you are wearing are ripped from Maitreya in SL” and they shrug their shoulders and just don’t care. It’s important that their cartoon looks good even if it means lowering their morals.

          •' 1derworld says:

            Problem is this, No One Cares. One small example is HGB no one responds but a small few on this topic. SL creators don’t come to opensims for a few items that have been taken. Its like Who stole this who stole that lots of finger pointing.
            I had many items stolen when I was in SL being at the time I had #1 store selling avatar makeovers. Learned long ago Theft is just a part of virtual worlds people need to accept that. I do highly suggest Grids get registered with DMCA and follow the take down policy. Opensims so-called police just makes enemies is all, And nothing gets solved. If you see something that may be copied ignore it let the actual creator do something about it geez the drama of it all.

          •' Tom Messenger says:

            This looks like a job for the Lanterns.

      •' Da Hayward says:

        Hi Linda in my opinion one of the greatest tragedies in OS was you leaving, I believe you did far more good for new people coming in than many others. I have often said this before a lot of times in these articles people can make a mountain out of a mole hill, whether it be they are truly upset or just want their light to shine brighter. I abhore content theft as much as anyone but to be honest I can’t see an easy fix for the problem, at the moment really its grid owners, region owners and consumers be alert and aware. Most people I have run across in OS are genuinely nice decent folk who would not knowingly support content thieves. The best we can do at this time I think is just make people aware when the issue arises.

        • Thank you but I have left OS a million times and it has never resulted in a tragedy. 🙂

          I agree that most people in OS are nice. But I have met some of the sweetest people who are just so numb to the abundance of ripped off stuff that they think it’s OK to keep using it. They are people, who I am sure, in rl would never use something that was stolen and handed to them.
          When I came back to OpenSim last time and I found that my favorite mesh body was there for free and my favorite clothes from Blueberry, Just Because, Maitreya and even my favorite skin from League were just sitting there on a region ready for me to take for free I was so tempted. I almost talked myself into believing it was OK for me to use them. After all I didn’t rip them off. And they were there and probably all over OpenSim anyway. I really really really wanted them (notice the three “really’s”?) But my best friend Jessica knocked some sense into me. I’m glad she did. I would have ended up feeling so guilty.
          I think I am a good person yet if Jessica hadn’t been in my IM box at that moment I may have went ahead with it. And I guess that’s what bothers me most. Good people are tempted and they give into the temptation and then they spend their time trying to justify it and even getting on the “everything in OS should be free” bandwagon to justify it.

          •' Da Hayward says:

            unfortunately that does happen, but in saying so you did think twice even if prompted and at this stage I think that is our best defence against content theft etc. Its sad there will always be rogues about who participate in this practice.
            But there are also a lot of responsible grids out there too, An old saying is Birds of a feather flock together which is very apparent in these virtual worlds.As for everything should be free in Open Sim that is just crazy no matter what anyone says there are costs involved. As for a controlling body such as a chamber of commerce for example I cant see it being effective, my view is for most OS residents the big factor is the freedom it offers not a board chaired by one person dictating this will be done.

          •' Jessica Random says:

            I think we both convinced each other not to use those items as I recall. I think we were both trying to convince ourselves it was ok – but then both at the same time saying “yeah but we really cant can we?”. I think its probably fair to say that alone – we both would likely have taken and used the items. After all we weren’t going to distribute them to others! I think it was the scale of the content theft that made us sit up and take notice. Literally regions and regions of it! I’m not proud of it – but if I came across one little item that I thought might be “dodgy” I may well have used it. But that scale…. there was no way I could use any of it without feeling like I was totally complicit in the act. Im glad we were both there to keep the other straight! (although yeah… I wanted the stuff!)

          •' 1derworld says:

            Not a fun experience for you being in opensims when everything is questioned is it? And what you do have in your inventory is beyond a doubt all legit? How can you be sure.

    •' Arielle says:

      I mostly left not because of business but because people couldn’t stop bickering and I finally just got too tired of it all.

      Can’t say I knew her very well but I tried to think of who she might have been referring to when she mentioned the bickering and it struck me that over the past year and a bit, it has only been these sort of threads that have had any action and the main players in them have been me, you, Linda, Moonrise, Noxluna and HGB……

      •' Han Held says:

        She’s a part of opensim virtual; I’m reasonably sure there’s been more bickering about different issues than just copybot there. Also, she was active in Kitely and so you have to factor in whatever bickering goes on there, too.

        Then there’s your earlier comment …about there being a larger world outside of these forums? If she was a part of that wouldn’t it be logical to guess that the bickering could have been bad there, too?

        Otherwise, she would have simply dropped the forums. 🙂

        • As a long time member of Kitely I can honestly say it is a very, very, drama free place. The weekly meetings are very community in nature and in all the convos Ive had with Chic there (she had a residence on my land for a good while before she and I left) she never gave any indication of issues there. My guess is that its just the overall bickering in opensim in general. Not grid specific.

  6.' Alan Blogger says:

    People will always continue to find a way to abuse something in fact look at CD’s they can be ripped and even copied using free iTunes. Movies are out on the internet before release dates being shared everywhere across all different platforms. Unfortunately there is no protection out there that can stop any copying 100% Even SL can not stop it either. There is no stopping it.

    •' Han Held says:

      If you read the SL forums, you’ll see people complaining about stolen content there, too. The difference being that instead of twiddling their thumbs and waiting for an exodus of creators to come in from outside their ecosystem, secondlife nurtures their own creators.

      •' Arielle says:

        And there you have the crux of it. Secondlife nurtures its own as Opensim should nurture its own, not all of Secondlifes, which these threads are all about. After a year of these type of threads I am more familiar with big name S/L creators then I am with Opensim ones. That needs to change imo. If the shills want people to stop picking up and using suspected cb content then maybe they would be further ahead pointing out where there is quality Opensim creator content then always pointing out where the suspect content is.

        •' Han Held says:

          >And there you have the crux of it. Secondlife nurtures its own as Opensim should nurture its own,

          You’ll get no argument from me on that one! The biggest A-NUMBER ONE problem with Opensim is that the opensim community constantly back-stabs one another. I think Chic Aeon’s departure says it all…I’m willing to bet that if you were able to ask all the other people who came here, turned around and noped out you’d find similar experiences to hers (also worth noting; the fact her friends had already left was one of the considerations behind her decision to bail out too).

    •' Cinder Biscuits says:

      Ripping a CD isn’t infringement… That’s old RIAA FUD. You’re entitled to make a backup.

  7.' oopsee says:

    What about the many thousands and thousands and thousands of opensim residents who have created an insatiable demand for this free content and support it? They are the vast “majority” and don’t seem to care where it comes from or the moral side of this.
    Seems to me the very few (I submit less than 10) who continue this drama are the same few who want to profit in opensim. This content being given for free really hurts their opportunity for greed. Why buy their hot dogs when there are better tasting ones and free across the street?
    I think that strikes at the heart of it. If economy and commercialization of opensim is such a winning idea why are they failing to muster the masses of opensim residents to their cause? If economy and commercialization of opensim is such a wonderful concept then why are the commercial grids empty and failing? See first and second sentence for your answer.
    Seems the massive majority of opensim residents are speaking out not in these comments (the hg business echo chamber) but in mega numbers through inworld participation. They are embracing this free content and soundly rejecting economy. They don’t want another “shittylife”.
    This article completely and totally ignores the huge majority of opensim residents in favor of 5-10 pro economy people. Good job ! I’d say your down to Faux News standards, lol. This article is in no way any kind of fair and balanced news reporting.
    So a very tiny few for profit opportunists or economy cheerleaders want to legislate to this vast majority? Hahahahhha … good luck !!
    The opensim community itself has and will continue to determine what is wanted and acceptable.

    •' Han Held says:

      > They are embracing this free content and soundly rejecting economy.

      That’s not rejecting economy -that’s embracing economy but rejecting the need to pay for it.

      Rejecting economy would involve making their own content and teaching others how to create …like Richard Stallman and GNU (who didn’t crack and hand out UNIX, but instead made their own). Truly rejecting economy would involve creating an alternative to it.

      Sure -everyone loves no-cost stuff. Duh. But you’re not making any kind of great ideological stand here. You’re playing the same game that the sellers and the people who push to lock down opensim play; you’re simply playing the Joker to their Batman is all.

      You’re still saying their economy has value and you want to play a part in it. It’s just that the part you want to play is that of the thief.

      In the meanwhile you do them a wonderful favor by legitimizing their view and validating their arguments. ….you’re allowing yourself to be used to justify implementing further lockdowns on sharing in opensim. You’re playing into the view that there is only commerce or theft and nothing else.

      Go run your Pirate Bay if you like, but get off your high horse -you’re no Richard Stallman. You may be giving people stuff, but you’re not giving them power.

      You’re feeding the economy, not bringing it down.

      •' oopsee says:

        depends on the definition of “economy” eh … since you don’t offer one in your rail against my opinion and character … for me in my prior comment it is the exchange of “value” and there is none … it assumes a “medium” of exchange or trade of value and again there is none.
        Does this content have an intrinsic value? Sure that is why it is so very popular and why it gets “stolen” and resold in opensim and sl”. Is that stopping anytime soon? Doubt it.
        Do these others who decry free content have a legitimate gripe? Sure they do, it just goes against the majority and hmmm good luck with that. Did this article point that out? Nope. It seemed to me to be quite a big oops not to draw a complete picture.
        By the way I do create my own content and I do teach others the how to … and my junk is and has been all over opensim for many many years with my name as creator and without due to oar and iar’s. There you have the two best reasons to thwart an economy and commercialization in opensim and a continuing “wild west”.
        What I am or am not according to the world of Han Held is fluff and not worthy of a response.
        Oh wonderful me ;))

        •' Han Held says:

          What I am or am not according to the world of Han Held is fluff and not worthy of a response.

          Sad. But I may be addressing you -but I am not necessarily writing for your benefit. Others read here as well.

          I am not worthy of a response, and yet here you are …continuing to act in concert with the the marketers and those who would turn Opensim into an endless mall. Giving them both justifications for restrictions they’ve wanting to add for years, and undermining any sort of alternative.

          If you in fact teach, that may be the best-kept secret in all of opensim.

          If you’re a content creator, then you know how demoralizing it is to have credit for your work stolen. And if you believe that content has value (according to your words) then there’s no moral justification for your actions.

          Spite? Sure but nothing moral.

          “Keep Opensim Free” -how are you going to do that little thing when you fail to acknowledge the difference between legitimately created free-to-share content and no-cost stolen goods?

          Do these others who decry free content have a legitimate gripe?

          There’s many meanings to the word “free” -“no cost but stolen” is nothing to brag about, free as in licensed and free to redistribute is far more important. But takes more work than firing up darkstorm and going to town and stealing it.

          Just like those who would turn opensim into a locked-down mall, you choose words that blur the distinction between free and licensed content (eg Linda Kellie) and stolen goods.

          I find it interesting that in both of your worlds (the seller and the thief) there is no open culture, there is no open source; only items sold for dollars and an argument about whether or not they should be stolen or not.

          The choice people need to make is whether they’d prefer to look like 2004 in honest content, or dress as vain and flashy thieves and look like 2015. If they choose the latter, so be it …but there’s no moral high ground there, and they’re doing nothing whatsoever to make opensim “free” …as in a place of greater freedom.

          •' oopsee says:

            ahhh han held, your funny and thanks for the giggle … I mean that sincerly.
            Steal my work? It is free, full perms and I could care less about recognition or the fact you are ignorant of my activities in opensim regards teaching or helping others.
            I am very comfortable in my skin and have no qualms about my moral compass. I sleep very soundly thank you very much.
            The fact you think you have the whole pie of reason here regards this topic is laughable. Will I educate you about my objectives regards the opensim metaverse? Pffft, hell no. Why, because I don’t need you. I will tell you the path I am on is wildly successful in achieving what I desire. The fact that you and others don’t get or like it is not my concern. Tough beans.
            Continuing to attack my character or morals only makes you look bad to those who do know me.
            The only people who read this are stuck in an echo chamber and are of no consequence to me so yeah, love me or villify me to your heats content.
            If not for me commenting here all any of you would have is to eat is each others dinner eh? Kinda boring as your all eating the same dish.
            The majority of residents in the metaverse are deciding each day what direction they want to move in by thier activities. From my vantage it is a tidal wave compared to a grain of sand.
            The only people who keep trying to keep this dead topic alive are the very very few who will profit from removing suspect content. Maria is one, Suz is another, Linda yes her too, chamber of commerce yes those two also, hmmm maybe a few others but thats about it. So they are 5 or 6 against thousands. So far a big fail … tears.

          •' Han Held says:

            >Will I educate you about my objectives regards the opensim metaverse? Pffft, hell no. Why, because I don’t need you

            Maybe -it’s more likely that you will not detail them because they wouldn’t stand up to the light of public scrutiny. That they would be called out as the facile rationalizations which they are.

            One can make the world a better place, or a crummier place. It sounds like your goal is one which will ultimately be destructive to opensim …and will make the world a crummier place.

            I’m glad you’re at peace with that. Have a lot of fun.

          •' oopsee says:

            the world according to han held … your vision and mine are very different i agree

          • You said “The only people who keep trying to keep this dead topic alive are the very very few who will profit from removing suspect content. Maria is one, Suz is another, Linda yes her too”

            How will I profit? I am not even in opensim anymore. I’m really starting to think that You are only here to start drama because really what you are saying makes no sense. You are making things up and just throwing words out in the air and seeing what gets you the most attention.

            You have the attention now. Now you are a “somebody”. Congrats!

          •' 1derworld says:

            Yes your not in opensims anymore, But the drama of it all and maybe creating some keeps you interested. And LOL suspect content, What makes one a authority on that? Forget SL content the big fish is On-Line games and free with non-commercial 3D web sites that are ripped on a daily. Those things are NEVER mentioned

          •' oopsee says:

            thanks Linda, not what i aspire to but thanks anyway

          •' Geir Nøklebye says:

            OpenSim is a piece of software codeveloped by literally hundreds of people over time.

            OpenSim is NOT a finite community, but a piece of software that can be used to create your free for all utopia, but can also be used to create commercial environments supporting multiple business models.

            Do not try to monopolize OpenSim for your particular flavor of world view and outlook.

          •' Han Held says:

            >Do not try to monopolize OpenSim for your particular flavor of world view and outlook.
            That would be more your trip …so are you trying to tell me to stay on my own side of the street then?

            Also limiting the discussion of opensim to just the software itself is myopic AF; JS. HTH!

          •' Geir Nøklebye says:

            Limiting the discussion to OpenSim, the software, is clarifying the issue as there are no restrictions on it for commercial use and development. If YOU want to develop a certain utopia based on it that is fine for you and those who subscribe to that particular outlook. But do NOT try and monopolize the use of it. You have over time been one of the more vocal individuals for that.

            When it comes to content protection and protection of creators, that is half way a technical issue where the software could do more to help. It is also a moral issue, and to a large extent a political issue as well.

          •' Arielle says:

            Opensim developers for as long as I remember (2009) have been strong in their assertions that Opensim is a platform and such was not intended for Commercialism in its vanilla form. Justin, Neb, Diva and even Mel have all at various times been adamant that Opensim master would not move in that direction but that anyone wishing to was welcome to fork it into their own commercial utopia. A number have like, RealXTend, Inworldz, Avination as well as a few others I am forgetting about. Each however did a fork and increased security etc on their forks rather then trying to push code changes for that to stock Opensim. Therein lies the issue with those of us resisting the changes to Opensim itself that will detrimentally affect legacy content for the sake of those wanting increased security and more restrictive hypergrid movement for the sake of supposed stronger commercialization opportunities.

          •' Han Held says:

            While I can believe that …the only evidence I’ve seen for it has been forum posts’ by Adam Frisby’s lover over on SLU saying it was disgusting that anyone would charge money to use opensim with it still being in alpha. He didn’t say if Adam felt the same or not, and I since this was 2010, 2011 I’m not even sure Adam was core or not.

            I’d love to think that was the attitude around Opensim, and I don’t actually doubt you; but I don’t have enough evidence to feel confident in making the same claim myself.


          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            The irony there is he charged for hosting OpenSim himself. (DeepThinkLabs)

          •' Han Held says:

            Indeed; I thought he co-founded SimHost (with Hiro). Of course, either way the point is the same. It means he had no problems with commercializing OpenSim.

          •' Arielle says:

            When I am talking about Opensim being commercialized, the intent is that commerce is possible from within it. Not meaning hosting or the sale of modules or support services.

          •' Geir Nøklebye says:

            Melanie did for years run Avination on OpenSim, a 100% commercial grid, until it had to file for bankruptcy. What she have said about supporting commerce in OpenSim core is that she does not support anything but 0 value transactions, which is exactly what the basic money module she wrote for core does.

            I agree on that, because having direct support for real value transactions in OpenSim core could be a complete can of legal worms and regulatory requirements. That is better left for (professional) third parties writing modules to handle real or virtual currency. What I have asked for is better support for transaction integrity, transaction logging and reporting and transaction rollback in core, so it can better support money modules and provide grid owners and users better reporting on their activities.

            JustinCC made a living by offering consultancy for OpenSim users.

            When it comes to Diva the picture is more unclear in that she does not financially benefit directly from OpenSim development, but it sure does not hurt her career at the University where she has used OpenSim for research and student work. It also gave her an award (although not big in monetary value).

            Changes to OpenSim does not mean shedding backward compatibility with content, if the changes are done right. IMO preserving backward compatibility of content (perhaps with a couple exceptions) is imperative for the continued existence of OpenSim. If you break it, you might as well start from scratch, say like HIFI or Sansar did.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Diva sells additional plugins for Diva Distro such as a grid-wide group management platform. She also is partners with Nebadon and they run businesses like Encitra together. (google it, I don’t want to get the post getting trapped for posting a link.)

            So yeah, all of Arielle’s examples have had a commercial interest in OpenSim. None of it is wrong to do. Everybody’s gotta eat, and why not make a living working on something you’re passionate about?

            And no surprise there that Melanie doesn’t like to enable the competition. That’s been an extreme conflict of interest that’s well documented for years now.

          •' Arielle says:

            _Changes to OpenSim does not mean shedding backward compatibility with content, if the changes are done right. IMO preserving backward compatibility of content (perhaps with a couple exceptions) is imperative for the continued existence of OpenSim._

            Backward compatibility has not always been a high priority for the core devs especially the current team. I am thinking back of the export flag which is almost a must for proper commerce across the Hypergrid but the last time it came up for discussion, resulted in a bit of a war because of the way the devs wanted to implement it. The intent was to roll it out with the export flag being in the off position for all content and would be up to the original creator to check the flag if they were ok with allowing it out on the hypergrid. The result would have been all legacy content becoming non-exportable as often the original creators are no longer around to check the new flag to allow for export even though it was their original intention as back then at least, outside of the closed grids, creators were fine with their items being spread out.

          •' Geir Nøklebye says:

            At the end of the day the export flag has nothing to do with backward compatibility as it does not change anything by the object itself. All its properties are still intact and can be read and rendered across OpenSim and viewer versions.

            The Export flag is an administrative / policy setting for a grid, and can be executed in many different ways. As you specifically mention setting a global no export flag for a grid could have the consequence of making content previously exportable (as in being able to be moved to other grids) stuck, the remedy would be for the grid owner / database admin to set the export flag to true if the original owner is no longer around to modify their creations at will, and there is great precedence for distributing the object in question off grid.

            When it comes to how the export flag works for items that exist in My Suitcase, I believe there is room for improvement. The Kitely implementation is in my opinion brain dead as you often have to undress more or less if taking a teleport off Kitely.

            There is also a set of issues on grids respecting M/C/T flags across grid transfers.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            That wasn’t core, that was Digiworldz and me, and there wasn’t any “war” just a bunch of reactive drama queens in a sudden panic that their Arcadia Asylum freebies wouldn’t cross grids anymore.

          •' Arielle says:

            Mel was involved around the same time stating that she would only finish the Export flag by making it full perm as her opinion was that once it was out in the metaverse it would get ripped anyway and she felt it was the best way to let the creator understand the implications right up front. Kitely objected in that they felt the majority would respect the perms and that is why Opensim master has a broken export implementation while Kitely has a working one.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Melanie only wishes she was involved. The code was never given to the core team. She was simply opining.

          •' Arielle says:

            see hypergridbusiness(dot)com/2013/03/avination-singularity-create-export-permission/

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            “but the last time it came up for discussion” was not march 2013.

            You’re attempting to tie together two very separate development efforts. Nobody on Core, including Melanie, was ever involved in the hypergrid implementation.

          •' Arielle says:

            An Export flag is of no value to anything other than the hypergrid and the linked article mentions the flag was to give creators greater control over whether an item leaves their grid or not.
            If Digiworldz was implementing its own export flag like Kitely did at some point, then that is not the one I was mentioning to Geir.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Nope, as implemented in 2013, it only applies to exporting from the viewer. Nothing involving hypergrid, and no Digiworldz wasn’t “implementing its own export flag like Kitely did” either. Apparently your memory is faulty regarding the whole thing.

          •' Arielle says:

            as per the article: “The new “export” permission setting will allow grid owners to configure their grids so that only exportable content can leave via hypergrid teleport, or via OAR or IAR exports. Its there in black and white. My memory might be faulty at times but my reading comprehension is intact today.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            “will allow”

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Like a lot of OpenSim, it was only partially completed. I can say the new checkbox will allow all prims to quack like ducks. Promising something and doing something are different things.

            Also, you’re now contradicting yourself. “An Export flag is of no value to anything other than the hypergrid” yet OAR and IAR exports are mentioned as well, but to be sure, OAR and IAR restrictions didn’t come from Melanie either. They were contributed by Spellscape grid.

          •' Arielle says:

            That it was left partially completed was the reason I said “the intent was”.
            The contributions for filtering OAR’s and IAR’s are relevant only upon using the –perm modifier and is only of value to those grids that utilize it when giving an ex-resident their inventory to take to their new home. Since that is not the sort of grid I would take up residence in, it is of no consequence and being that my example wasn’t meant as an in depth discussion of the feature, unnecessary.
            Thx for bringing it up though. I was wondering too what I was going to do with this lovely but frigid friday afternoon. 🙂

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Yes, so you agree that Core team had nothing to do with the hypergrid export implementation rendering your original argument “Backward compatibility has not always been a high priority for the core devs” baseless.

          •' Arielle says:

            Not at all. Firstly, Core team (Mel) did obviously bring in an Hypergrid export implementation that is actually supposed to work as per http://opensimulator(dot)org/mantis/view.php?id=5892 (last post). The fact that it doesn’t work doesn’t mean Core didn’t try. Secondly, it was only one example of backward compatibility not being a priority for them.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Nothing in that mantis says anything about a hypergrid export implementation in Core. lol. You’re confusing the export bit with an actual export implementation *again*.

            Also you gave no other examples, so yes, it DOES make your claim baseless. If you only have one example, and the example is completely fabricated by misinformation, that makes it baseless.

          •' Arielle says:

            WhiteStar’s mantised feature request states: “If the export permission flag is set to disallow, then the material could be prevented from XML, IAR, OAR and HG (Hypergrid)”. Pretty plain that it speaks of Hypergrid Export. Are you thinking of the viewer export that some of the copybot viewers have?

            Another example would be the ubOde physics not being backward compatible with older mesh. Differing sit implementations, differing scripting functions from one version to the next. No doubt others could come up with other examples.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Can’t tell if you’re trolling now or if you just aren’t the brightest bulb.

          •' Arielle says:

            I have faith in you that you’ll figure it out. 🙂

          •' Arielle says:

            Ok Ilan here is a scenario I wondered about:
            A while back I purchased the Sapphire body from your marketplace and at the time considered whether to purchase it with my Kitely avatar or the avatar on my own private Grid. I eventually decided to do it with my private grid avatar simply because it gets more use then my Kitely one, however later I realized that because some parts were no copy, that had i purchased it with my Kitely account even with export capability, I would not have been able to because of that permission limitation. Perhaps I am missing something in that as that would make my Kitely purchases worth less then purchases made by accounts outside of it.

            Another scenario I have wondered about is if like Digiworldz, should a resident decide to pull up stakes and move everything to a new grid and wish their Kitely account closed, would Kitely also not allow an inventory/region backup to be migrated to the grid except for those items with the proper permissions that would allow it? My reasoning being that if one is closing an account for whatever reason whether by the residents choice of if Kitely decided to close, the inventory and region backups are not being transferred to an additional account but the same one in a new home.

          •' Ilan Tochner says:

            Hi Arielle,

            Kitely uses a different system for deciding exportability of items bought from Ktiely Market and items bought inworld (which didn’t originate from Kitely Market). Neither one of these systems use the viewer/OpenSim Export flag.

            The Kitely Market Export permission works differently from the standard OpenSim permissions (Move/Copy/Transfer): instead of setting it in the viewer, this permission is set in Kitely Market. The Kitely Market Export permission isn’t shown in the viewer.

            Content creators that add a product to Kitely Market can choose whether to enable Export on their product by clicking on a checkbox. They can do so regardless of how the other permissions (Move/Copy/Transfer) are set. So, for example, you can find items in Ktiely Market that are sold with Export but without Copy and those items will be exportable from Kitely regardless of whether you deliver them to your Kitely avatar or to your avatar in another grid.

            In other words, your purchases for your Kitely avatar are as valuable (and in some cases more valuable) than your purchases for your avatar on another grid. One example of why they are sometimes more valuable is that merchants can reliably send Kitely avatar’s product updates via their Kitely Market store’s Sales page but that functionality has many common issues when used with avatars from other grids.

            Please note, however, that if you buy something that has no Transfer permission then you aren’t allowed to transfer it to another avatar regardless of whether or not you are allowed to take it with you when you HG teleport from Kitely or when you export that item in an OAR file.

            Only when items do NOT originate from Kitely Market do we use the Copy+Transfer logic to decide exportability.

            As mentioned in the first link I mentioned, you can export your Kitely world to an OAR file at any time. This is done automatically and doesn’t require any support ticket. Content will be filtered out from that OAR file based on its exportability; You won’t be able to export it if it was purchased from Kitely Market with no Export permission, or if it didn’t originate from Kitely Market but is lacking both Copy and Transfer permissions for the world owner creating the OAR file.

            Export controls are designed to work regardless of the intentions of the person attempting to export an item as they embody the will of the person who gave the current owner the items. If you find buying non-exportable content prohibitive (as many people do) then simply avoid buying any content that isn’t sold with the Export permission. Most items in Kitely Market are sold with the Export permission so this rarely limits your buying options.

            Similarly, if you wish to be able to export something in the future (which didn’t originate from Kitely Market) then make sure to ask the person who gives it to you to grant you both Copy and Transfer permissions for that item. If they are unwilling to do so then they obviously do not agree to you creating copies and/or transferring them to another avatar (on Kitely or any other grid).

            Our goal is to enable people to use our system to help them enforce the licensing terms that they had in mind when they decided to sell/share an item with others. The SL/OpenSim permission system is not quite up to this task but it (and our additions to it) are what we currently have to work with.

          •' Han Held says:

            Again, you are one of the individuals who reads only what they want in my posts …if I was to rant for hours advocating for an Ayn Rand marketplace but happened to drop the name Marx once you would turn around and claim that I spent the entire time reading the communist manifesto.

            In short -you, along with specific others, have always cherry-picked what reinforces your own agenda out of what I’ve said.

            Arguing against people setting up a monopoly is not arguing against commercial uses of opensim. I am fine with commercial opensim -and have even rented regions here from commercial vendors (eg Digiworldz), and I have plugged commercial products I like on my G+ stream as well.

            I am wholly and unrepentantly against the formation of cartels, however. You, on the other hand, are attacking me at least in part because you are in the Hypergrid Chamber Of Commerce (the G+ group if not the org itself).

          •' Geir Nøklebye says:

            There you have it: “I am in the Hypergrid Chamber of Commerce”.

            Indeed I am – a passive member who accepted an invitation, in the same manner as I do with other G+ groups.

            If that is all it takes to tick you off, I think you proved beyond doubt the points I made earlier.

          •' Han Held says:

            Indeed you are. And instead of directly attacking my critique of it, you instead come up with some straw men and beat them down instead.

            The rhetorical failure is yours, and not mine.

            I don’t care what groups you join, though I do admit that I find it cowardly that you exploit the fact I am not there to gossip about me, believing that I will not see it. But again -that reflects more on you, than on me.

          •' Han Held says:

            Also you’re coming in to the conversation after half of it has been deleted and you’re either missing or taking the opportunity to actively ignore the context of what I was replying to. Cheap shot is more cheap than shot, and as usual misses the mark by a country mile!

          •' Geir Nøklebye says:

            At what point I enter the discussion is immaterial. Besides you have no knowledge of to what extent I have followed the discussion and read the deleted messages?

            One only need to follow you over some time to know that virtually irregardless of context on the subject of commerce and OpenSim, you fall down on wanting to monopolize the utilization of the software for your particular utopia.

            Arguing for YOUR use of the software is all fine, but as Cinder pointed out above, there is neither any restrictions in the licensed of OpenSim nor any indication that core developers were negative to commercial use of the software. On the contrary, as Cinder have pointed out, core developers have in various ways and degrees, used it for commercial purposes.

          •' Han Held says:

            1)Context; it’s a thing. A thing you’re woefully missing.

            2)My stance on how Opensim is used is far more nuanced than people like you give me credit for. This is something that people who have read my posts over time _and have decent reading comprehension_ are aware of. I’ve learned years ago that people who choose to only focus on half of what I say …a characteristic that you’ve displayed repeatedly…aren’t worth the effort.

            3)Again, see context. I’m not even gonna give you a mulligan on this one. You could have been here, you could have been making arguments to the person arguing for copybotting -but instead you opted to lurk in the shadows, coming out only to make the usual cheap shot.

            So yes, you would have actually had to have been here during the actual conversation in order for your ad-hominems to make sense, instead of coming in long after the danger was past and making a context-free personal attack.

          •' Geir Nøklebye says:

            I am sure you will make sense of what I said regardless of which particular post I replied to. It could have been any, because the address was primarily directed at your general contempt of anyone who don’t agree to your utopian “vision” for OpenSim.

            The fact that you waffle at times in your quest does not negate the overall negative and spiteful attitude you host towards large sections of creators, developers and providers of services and experiences.

          •' Han Held says:

            Don’t confuse my contempt for you for having contempt of commercial opensim in general. I am just fine with commercial opensim which behaves ethically. I believe that it would violate HGB posting policies to clearly state my opinion of you.

          •' Geir Nøklebye says:

            Feel free to send me a private message with your opinions if that makes you feel better! 😉

          •' Han Held says:

            As if you’re worth the time.

            Indeed …it isn’t me who gossips about you where I believe you won’t see it. The reverse is not true, however. 🙂

          •' Han Held says:

            >one other person is typing…
            Have fun with that. 🙂

      •' Cinder Biscuits says:

        “Rejecting economy would involve making their own content and teaching others how to create …like Richard Stallman and GNU (who didn’t crack and hand out UNIX, but instead made their own). Truly rejecting economy would involve creating an alternative to it.”

        Littlefield is the only grid I have seen do this, and they do it really well. No currency on their grid and no competition, and they’ve got incredibly unique and beautiful sims as well as great avatars and clothing all made in Littlefield and all available for free to residents there.

    •' Suz Blessed says:

      This article as I understand is not about offering FREE items, which I think is totally ok, but about offering stolen content for free.

      •' oopsee says:

        and it neglects to mention the thousands and thousands of opensim residents who really don’t care … you and a few others are standing in the face of thousands who do not agree with you … so good luck with that …
        It is not a question of “stolen” or “legal” or “morals” is it?
        The majority by their actions decide until there is a policeman on every opensim corner to say otherwise I would think.

        •' Cinder Biscuits says:

          You’re really off your rocker if you think there are “thousands and thousands of opensim residents.”

          •' oopsee says:

            Can you prove me wrong?
            What evidence do you have to the contrary besides your feelings?
            What qualifies you to know?

            Yes, I am in a position to know.
            Yes, I can prove it.

            Go ahead, try and prove me wrong or delete your comment.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            “Can you prove me wrong?”

            Oh dear, forgive me for laughing, what you are doing is trying to win an argument using confused thinking, and making yourself look a bit foolish to anyone unfortunate enough to witness your crude and unsubtle attempts at rhetoric. “Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam” an appeal to ignorance. This is a silly way to argue. You cannot use the “absence of evidence” supporting one position as if it were definitive evidence supporting the contrary position.

            But hoo boy, I actually do have evidence. I ran a grid for two years and kept very in-depth statistics on users both inside the grid and visitors from hypergrid, and what do you know, there was an average of seven alt accounts for every unique user. I am also friends with several large grid owners who run my user metrics module and they correlate this. I also have a ViVox administrator account and can see at any given time how many users are connected to a voice channel. Mind you, not every grid uses Vivox and not every user enabled voice, but if there were “thousands and thousands” one would suspect that there would be more than twenty users across ALL opensim grids at any given time. Thanks to both OSSL and shared media, I also have freebies that can track users in range by IP address. It’s wonderful. Not only can I weed out the alts, I can correlate local users from one grid to another.

            Your turn, poopsie. Show me your cards.

          •' Tony Lester says:

            Cinder you are so right… This is the great tragedy of OpenSim, many believe the way over inflate numbers. And btw same is true in SL. People are fighting over the pennies and don’t realize the ship has left the building. New people are being attract to OpenSim or SL for that matter. Sooner of latter attrition will kill it.

          •' Han Held says:

            >People are fighting over the pennies and don’t realize the ship has left the building.

            Just like in Academia, In SL the fighting is so fierce because the stakes are so small. That is 100% more true for Opensim.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            It’s a zero sum game, really.

          •' Han Held says:

            Maybe -in the sense that it’s hard to get a piece of the pie when it’s only the size of half of a hostess pie. Sure. (picture included for reference)


          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Used to love those pies. My mom would buy me one when I went shopping with her in kindergarten. They made a Bavarian cream filled flavor that was to die for.

          •' oopsee says:

            You might be in an argument but I am not. You can agree with me or disagree but I am not about to argue the point as I am confident in my statement and really don’t care who agrees or does not. I am not out to “win” anything as you suggest. I asked as I don’t want to respond to “well, i think … so therefore your mistaken.
            I will preface this by saying the number whatever it is will be fantastically larger than the 5-10 people who promote economy and continue this drama. Tell me are equivalent numbers who are promoting economy?
            There are thousands of opensim residents. Banter that if you will with “one would suspect ….”.
            The statistics I have for just one region is 5k unique visits per month. Now you can “assume” these are not unique and are full of alts. Let’s do that ok. What is a fair number then? 1 out of 5? Now lets half that number to 500 unique per month so that easily falls under your assumption of 1 in 7.
            Lets multiply that by x number of regions and grids. Hmmm, we need just 2 similar regions to get to a thousand in one month. Let’s half that and say 4 regions to get to 1,000 in a month. Well maybe this one region is a fluke, sure ok, but what about 15 or 20 regions? Yup, some of the same people visit all of them. But lets add in about 20 separate grids both public and private.
            Now I have access to only one region and the actual verifiable stats. The others I can only speculate. I feel confident if i dig up the stats for all of them it will be many thousands. Yes, I know many large grid owners too and hear what their numbers are.
            Doubt there are that many regions and grids serving up this content? Think again as I underestimate the number on purpose. Let’s just say it is pervasive and rampant. Let’s just say the traffic – alts and all – is verifiable off the hook.
            I think my assessment for you here for general conversation has been conservative.
            A little more math for you? 300 opensim grids (could be more/less depending on point in time) times 20 would be hmmm 6,000 at any given time. While I doubt this high of a population I do think over the course of many months many thousands of unique individuals come and go. So yes, over the course of time, a few months maybe, thousands and thousands is not as wild a statement as you think.
            So regardless of your agreeing or not I stick by my statement.
            By the way your ip assessment is weak to say the least. Unless the ip is static you can not say who is an alt or not. Many countries do not use static ip’s. Anyone can offer up any ip they like from any country. Spoof on you eh. Now using this new information actually cuts my numbers but then I have been over conservative.
            My name is oopsee not “poopsie” and I find your calling me that rather condescending. Kinda reflects badly on you I think. The rest or your diatribe about arguments and tactics is rather silly in this context. I can think of a number of variations of your name but won’t swim in that pool with you.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Oh but poopsie, you most certainly, by definition, are arguing, and you don’t even have a nail to hang your hat on. lol

          •' oopsee says:

            alright I will concede it is an argument by definition but will qualify it by saying it is not heated or angry – at least my side of it … Can’t help it if your “grid” was a loser without traffic and you avoid saying what that traffic number is. So let’s see, you have a dud grid, no traffic so base my numbers that i do give as fake. Makes sense lol.
            What hat? what nail? I don’t wear a hat.
            I made a statement and you don’t agree fine. You threw out no numbers and I did. My numbers are as valid as the lack of the ones you proferred –
            To Tony below this .. I swear to you the numbers for the region I have access to are accurate, not inflated. The speculation of accuracy comes with the alts as Cinder says. But with 5,000 a month I dont care how you cut the cake it is thousands metaverse wide.
            It is not necessary to inflate as the population as it is so much larger than the detractors here – it’s not even a contest.

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            I didn’t read anything but the first few lines of your last post (or this one) since you’re so bad at this so I have no idea what you’re on about, poopsie. lol

          •' oopsee says:

            well i read all yours and your so cheeky and cutsie

          •' Cinder Biscuits says:

            Let the record reflect that my comment was only deleted because Lawrence doesn’t like terms of endearment or fun.

    •' ban joe says:

      and of course – the biggest double-standard here – the above “don’t want another shitty life”. Then WHY encourage it all flooding into Opensim which currently looks nothing more than a ‘knock-off second-life’? To say you are rejecting second-life economy is the hugest hypocrisy when you’re avidly distributing it around Opensim like a plague, and encouraging others to do so! This is not free content. This is stolen content. If you fail to see the ethical issue here – and those who greedily await these products like hungry nestlings, then I suggest your moral compass may well be broken.

      •' oopsee says:

        what a silly proposition … it is not the content that makes sl shitty is it?
        It is preciscly the economy of sl that makes sl shitty, beggers, chat spam for tips, bloggers advert spam for sl content in every outlet possible – flicker for example is inundated with it. Avatar prostitution and rl prostitution (skype me for xxx Lindens). Should i go on, ick.
        All that comes from an economy of greed and it can stay in shittylife.
        The biggest difference from sl that I applaud in opensim is a large community of sharing, helping, giving and in general a peer to peer friendly environment. People just in from sl mention this to me daily ! This (my opinion) is a direct result of no economy. Agree or not I really don’t care.
        Make no mistake ban joe whoever you are … i get nothing, have no vested interest or gain whatsoever from any content mine or others. If all this suspect content magically disappeared tomorrow I could care less.
        Well ban joe or should I call you the infamous Linda Kelly. Help or hurt opensim is not possible as it has reached a population of majority. Those in the majority will by their actions determine the direction not you nor me.
        Like it or lump it but this subject is a flat tire. hahahahaha

        •' ban joe says:

          Hypocrisy is Hypocrisy, call it and me whatever you want. What you’re saying here is you don’t like their economy, their lifestyle, but you want their content? Cherry-picking hypocrisy. hahahaha

        •' ban joe says:

          Ultimately, the message your distribution is sending out leads to the exact title of this article. You are simply saying (loudly) that Opensim creators aren’t good enough, we don’t want SL – just their stuff, and Opensim is only good for harboring content thieves! (queue more maniacal cackling…)

          •' oopsee says:

            I am an opensim creator so hmmm why would I say something as you suggest Linda?
            The fact is much content created in opensim is far superior to anything in sl. Much of it is created by my many friends so I would know.
            The point I make here is you and the economy cheerleaders do not even qualify as a minority.
            The majority opensim residents rule by their activities and you don’t like it, boo hoo.
            So attack poor oopsee for delivering the real news, yaya that will work hahahahaha

          •' ban joe says:

            I however am ‘not’ a creator! I am merely a visitor and a consumer. I am a cheerleader for noone, and I have no vested interest in an economy for myself, And as a relative newcomer to Opensim, I’m certainly not this ‘Linda’ you refer to for whatever business that may be of yours! I just don’t happen to enjoy a moral wasteland of stolen stuff, no matter how magically meshy or brilliantly Bento it may be! I aim my comments toward you as one of the loudest and most prevalent distributors of such content.

          •' oopsee says:

            a moral wasteland full of thousands and thousands who could care less about your moral highground … good luck with that Linda
            To say I am the loudest and most prevelent tells me you have no idea whatsoever the extent and involvement of many many hundreds, hahahahahahaha. Fyi I could go away and the impact would be nil to none. Thanks for the credit even if it is misplaced.
            Don’t like the direction opensim is moving then I can teach you how to make a soapbox and I will be happy to put you right in the midst of the inworld moral wasteland … you can prostalitize to the masses … hell I will even make it for you since you seem to be building challenged … how about a sign you can hold too … why settle for this comment section only a few read when you can reach out to thousands?

          •' ban joe says:

            Hypocrisy sting much?

          •' ban joe says:

            And many thanks for your patronising offers to ‘teach me how to build’ – I didn’t say I ‘couldn’t’ build, just that I didn’t, for whatever reason that may be. Given the title and content of this article, I’m sure that’s pretty obvious.

          • Now the “ban joe is Linda” thing is getting old.
            You do realize that you are the only voice here that is “pro” illegal ripped off items being in OpenSim right?
            I see people who are pro ripped items in the same light as those people who loot stores during a cities natural disaster.

          •' oopsee says:

            Do you realize that the majority of opensim residents who “loot stores during a cities natural disaster” don’t give two cents what you think.

          • OMG once again you think that ban joe is me. I post as myself. I am not the least bit afraid to confront you. You are grasping at straws to try and distract and make this article about something other than stolen SL items.

        • I am not Ban Joe. I post as myself.

    • You said “Seems to me the very few (I submit less than 10) who continue this drama are the same few who want to profit in opensim.”

      I have created a ton of free OpenSim items and I don’t get any profit and I am guessing that I am one of the 10 you speak of.
      I already know that you have no morals because when I did try to sell hair from a 3rd party creator that I had a license for in opensim you took one and made it full perms and gave it away in one of your packages and when I confronted you with that you basically told me to go to hell and that everything in opensim should be free. You are way too much of an activist for the “GIVE ME FREE STUFF” group that any opinion you have is not worth giving a second thought; it’s too one sided.
      And as far as you saying that this isn’t fair and balanced (I’m assuming here that you are an avid Fox News watcher) is just wrong. It’s wrong because everyone can post comments here as you have done stating their side…….. even when it’s wrong!

      •' oopsee says:

        Umm no i certainly did not make your hair full perms as you accuse me of doing now and at the time. I explained to you I had no idea it was your hair and it came into my possession as full perms. Within minutes of your RUDE REQUEST the hair was removed as you requested.
        I absolutly did not tell you to “go to hell” and that is an outright lie. I did not tell you I thought everything in opensim should be free. That also is an outright lie.
        I did say to you I thought a simple request on your part to remove this hair would have been nice without the false accusations that you made.


    •' Jamie Wright says:

      “What about the many thousands and thousands and thousands of opensim residents who have created an insatiable demand for this free content and support it?”

      Yes free, but not stolen and redistributed for free. That’s not truly free and gives a horrible name to the OpenSim and anyone making freebies from scratch or mods of existing legitimate freebies. It’s also not creating. If you’re fighting for creative freedom, create stuff. By redistributing stuff you know is stolen you make everyone who gives things away freely a suspect of the same and that’s not OK.

      I love freebies. I’m all about freebies. But make them. You can choose not to participate in consumer culture, but by sharing stolen stuff, in a way you actually are participating in that culture. In a not good way at all.

      In the real world if you don’t want to support corporations and consumer culture you could move off the grid, grow your own food etc. Don’t go to the grocery store, brand name clothing stores etc. In the virtual we create our own alternatives to commerce based interactions by creating our own and it’s as satisfying as gardening.

      I believe there’s room for commerce and free culture, but if you truly believe that free is the way you want to go, make it happen authentically.

      •' oopsee says:

        never said distributing content was creating — i do create my own stuff and give it for free – now should you do that?
        Its up to you isn’t it.

        •' Jamie Wright says:

          The true spirit of the OpenSim has always been about creating and creative freedom. I am aware that you do create some things, but if most of what you do is give away things made by others, which may or may not be for sale elsewhere, you’ve missed the point of what the OpenSim is working towards. If people want to step away from the consumer culture of Second Life, they come to the OpenSim. They don’t come here to get stuff you could by in SL for free, they come here because you can get space to create for free or much more fair pricing than land in SL. They come here because you can get lots of legitimate free content made by creative people who think outside the box and share. Yes some people do sell stuff because that’s an option here now too, but the original pioneer spirit still bleeds through it all.

          •' oopsee says:

            The point here is the majority of opensim residents decide what “opensim is to be” by their actions and what they choose as a community majority to participate in not some small tiny group with opinions of moral superiority or profit agendas.
            The reasons people choose to play in opensim are so varied and diverse i really don’t think one can define it
            What can be defined in “loose terms” is what all these folks are doing ya?
            The opensim culture will be defined by its participants majority and my “point” is just that.
            Those who are wanting to set the standards, set the policy, decide for others what is right or wrong, legit or not etc aught to zip it up and go with the flow, Don’t like where the flow is going then find another happy place.

      • Jamie I just wanted to say I absolutely love this response, it is perfectly and eloquently said. It represents a huge portion of the opensim population, one that I admittedly forget about rather easily when I let my disgust at botted and redistributed items cloud my view. Thanks for the reminder that these ideals and the pioneer spirit are still alive and well.

    •' Arielle says:

      Not to gang up on you here Oopsie but I know I speak for a few of us that pick up your content as a vote for better quality content rather then a vote against some commercial content. I don’t see the content you are distributing as preventing that but has rather raised the bar and given quite a few Opensim residents the motivation to modify and enhance what is being brought in so that some of the locally produced content is actually better and more user friendly then what can be had in S/L itself.

      I don’t see this content as being a moral dilemma. A few years ago my car went missing and the police were called in. They found it and the one who had taken it who was an acquaintance. I chose not to press charges and as a result in the eyes of the law, no crime was committed. In the same way these creators who originally made this content are not filing dmca’s or even voicing their displeasure here or any other publically accessible Opensim venue so to my mind, there has been no infringement.
      I noted the prominently displayed notices at several distribution regions, inviting any creators who might have content being given out, to where and how to file a dmca objection.

  8.' Mika Mesmeriser says:

    In a dilema here, i shop on kitely and globit malls(my good) and wear one of the free mesh body as discribed here (my bad) and tbh even when i first started using OS(7yrs) i saw many things avaliable for free which i had seen in SL market place which could have been ripped/stolen content but as there was no economy then nobody thought or did anything about it.

    •' oopsee says:

      you got it Mika and said it perfectly … well done hats off to you !!!!
      If i could give you twenty upticks I would

  9.' Tony Lester says:

    The great legacy that Linda Kelly did was provide a tremendous amount of content for OpenSim that people could use when there was none. Many others have done that. When I make content, I don’t care if people use it. Ultimately over the years, like most people I lose money on SL and OS, thousands of dollars, and that is the cost of entertainment. I wish more people where in OpenSim to steal my stuff and even make it better. Anyone, as stated before, that is trying to make a living in OS is delusional. Not because of copyboting, but because of the shear low numbers of people. It is a catch22, not enough people, not enough economy, no new development, no reason for new people to come in.
    There are many like Fred Beckhusen,Shin Ingen, and so many many others, that are always working to make OpenSim better. And still believe in it. And don’t focus on whether someone stole my something. They give it away for the community. Some people look at VR as a money maker it is their job, fine. Most of us it is what we do before we go to bed to relax. We have had enough with the politics and greed in our RL. We come to OS to relax… So those type A personalities that want to make OS like the Real World please go back to SL, with all the other Condo Commandos.

    • You do know that you aren’t required to buy anything if you don’t want to right? Why should people who want to buy and sell go back to SL? Is there only room for one type of person in your world? That’s sad.

    •' Han Held says:

      >There are many like Fred Beckhusen,Shin Ingen, and so many many others,
      that are always working to make OpenSim better. And still believe in it.
      And don’t focus on whether someone stole my something. They give it
      away for the community.

      Hear here! -if anyone’s “keep(ing) Opensim Free” its Fred, Shin and Creators like them. 🙂

  10. I’m no longer in OpenSim and I came here to reply because I feel like I should since quotes from me were used in the article. I am not going to waste another minute trying to tell people that stealing is wrong, using stolen items are wrong, distribution of stolen items is wrong. If your mother didn’t teach you that then I feel sorry for you and I am glad that I am not your neighbor in real life.
    And because Oopsee seems to want to make everyone believe that I am posting under a different name let me assure you that this is the only account that I have for this program. I’ve never been afraid to use my name (even when I have alt avatars in virtual I told everyone who I was)…..and Linda Kellie Henson is my real name. I’m not ashamed of who I am. I am an honest person who doesn’t steal and I try hard to stand up for what’s right.
    I am done posting now. Good luck to you all with this debate. I truly hope it doesn’t end until it is solved.

    •' David Cunningham says:

      I completely agree with you!.. there is so much stolen stuff in the Grid, is there any resource I can refer to to double-check if something I have or have seen is stolen?
      its a daunting task when you don’t even know what you have is legit, I delete and replace when I do find stuff in my inventory.
      Thank you for all the things you made, and OAR’s you have created!

      •' Arielle says:

        An easy rule of thumb I use is that if the content is being distributed on a grid who I trust to honor Dmca takedowns (Osgrid, Metropolis) then it must be ok. There really is no other way i know of other then relying on the words of the anti cobybot squads who are unfortunately mostly S/L and Inworldz trolls.

    •' SirSwagHorse sir swaghorse says:

      totally agree with you

    •' Lara Nguya says:

      Frankly, my life is easier if I never learn about the items that have been stolen from me and that’s just one of the vagaries of a virtual world – goods are stolen without anyone except the thief knowing about it at that point in time. But the gut wrenching starts when I see one of my builds in a new place with some other person’s name as creator for I know that it is an uphill task for me to do anything about it. This has happened to me dozens of times and I have learnt that most owners of stolen goods couldn’t care less where the goods come from and me claiming that I am the creator is likely to be met with ridicule and scorn or worse. It has never stopped me trying to stick up for myself.

      Of course, what I’ve described is not the only way items can be stolen, for the bulk of stealing that I’ve seen is to do with altering permissions before they are copied and passed on. The only way you can be sure that you are not using stolen items is to
      make all items for yourself, Linda.

  11.' Alan Blogger says:

    I think people need to stop tinkering with SL in a commercial aspect. From what I understand is Opensim was never meant for commercialism.

    •' SirSwagHorse sir swaghorse says:

      and where does it say that opensim was not meant for commercialism

    •' Cinder Biscuits says:

      Pretty strange understanding you have since the majority of the Core team profit commercially from OpenSimulator and licensed it in a way that’s friendly to businesses rather than users.

      •' Geir Nøklebye says:

        This understanding is the chief lie they perpetuate to justify the ongoing content theft OpenSim.

  12.' Lurker says:

    This topic gets rehashed every 60-90 days and is getting old. Too many personal attacks.

    I’m an average joe and I’m on SL and several OS grids, so I know several of the players in this conversation. Those of you beating the drum about illegal content, should check your inventory. Yes you may have contacted the original creator and maybe they have said they don’t care, so you give up and start accepting “free” items knowing it is illegal content. I care less, but don’t continue to standup and preach you are trying to clear up this illegal content when your feet are as dirty as others.

    My perspective has been hashed over and over, but it’s my opinion and I know people will disagree. Over the years I’ve purchased close to $1000 in inventory in SL. It was my choice and I agreed to the TOS, but do I really have a choice? So if I buy a house for $8000L (roughly $32) I technically have no control of my product. I can modify and copy all I want, even share with others. I can’t transfer it unless it transferable and then the price significantly increases. Again I’m of the mindset if I buy it I should own it. If I want to bring it to OS I should have the right. But that’s not the case. Yea that’s not the terms of service, but again I have no choice. In my mind I’m not stealing content, I’ve paid for it. Then look at some of the houses in today’s markets; $26k -$50k lindens, $100 plus for a virtual item. You damn straight I will do with what want. I realize this is only part of the issue.

    Personally I think if creators price their content reasonably there would be less copybotting. Also why care about illegal items in OS when the creator is not in this market. Are they really getting hurt? If I’m selling a skin in SL for $5k lindens and i’m doing well, why do I care about OS? I DON’T !! So don’t play GOD on my behalf.

    •' Da Hayward says:

      actually lurker I wasn’t playing God on your behalf the two people I contacted were friends of mine. You obviously have a beef with me in sl so you would know who these two friends in sl were
      To a way I do agree on if you buy something especially say on SL it is yours. If you knew me in SL you would know I had that opinion. And yes I also agree somethings are drastically overpriced, again in SL and when it comes from aircraft and some of the houses in there. My advice is have a cup of coffee. calm down and if you want to have a beef with me see me in DigiWorldz

      •' Lurker says:

        Smiles, DA if I had a beef with you I would talk to you directly and not here. I simply asked you a question in regards to another post you had made here. I’m not here for personal attacks. I asked since you stated you inquired with others when you really had no clue what the the situation was. I wanted to understand why, not to be redirected that I had an issue with you.

        We all see copybotted items everyday, that is a choice that person made and it none of my business or anyone else’s what they have or where they got it. However people tend to put their nose where it dosnt belong and think they have the moral authority to do so. Some of those same people own copybotted material.

        Again if skin developers wanted to be in OS then they would be here. They aren’t. Yet people run back to them over and over about something most skin developers care less about. Now if they were selling their product here, that would be a different story.

        •' Da Hayward says:

          very true. personally i think the subject in this article has been dragged on to long, I’m not a policeman and have no intention of being one. Nor do I agree with a single body such as a chamber of commerce telling me what we should.
          do. Content theft won’t go away, its up to the individual if they participate in such or not.

  13.' Cinder Biscuits says:

    and yet, this thread has over 70 comments so we’re only encouraging David and Maria to rehash it down the line after another AviWorlds post. Oh the humanity.

  14.' Suz Blessed says:

    Why are Oopsee’s comments all deleted? All seems to be out of context now.

    •' Area Fiftyone says:

      It was obiously not in tune with the hypergridbusiness view. They remove any comments they don’t agree with.

    •' Cinder Biscuits says:

      Oopsee removed all their comments last night because they were foolish. It wasn’t moderator.

  15.' Area Fiftyone says:

    I find it just as equally demoralizing to see grid owners embezzle its users currency. But we can’t mention that, because grid owners are also often huge contributors to the opensim core, they’re sort of like robin hood, they do steal, but it’s from the rich content creators and they do give it back to opensim through new commits, sometimes through enormous code contributions, donations to the opensim foundation and so on. So that the poor average joe can get a better opensim experience.
    The solution to both problems isn’t to religiously repeat this article once every few years and hope people will react this time, they won’t. Through thousands of years of education through reason, through threat of the use of force by government (jails, death-penalty), and even by threat of afterlife complications (religions), didn’t solve that, so i think it’s safe to say, it can’t be solved with those methods, because people are going to turn their back the moment they think they can get away with it.

    What you should promote instead is to promote the solution that actually works, that is the blockchain technology (or what you get when you combine peer-to-peer network with cryptography), trust-less assets. This is exactly what Hi-Fidelity is doing, the way they’re doing it could be better but at-least they realized anything else is going to be a failure.

  16.' Philip Rosseter says:

    The, um, spirited discussion points to a partial solution that would help me at least. If knowledgeable people would find ways to say, “I believe this stuff is legitimate,” people like me could accept it with some confidence. The endorsers don’t need jackboots or any authority at all beyond their own reputations. They don’t have to comment on stuff they don’t think is legitimate: eventually the absence of endorsement will speak for itself. If rival gangs of endorsers arise, people will learn which gang represents their interests.
    I’d love to see endorsements take the form of malls with standards. Meanwhile, Hypergrid Business, Outworldz, and others have made a start on the web.

    •' Arielle says:

      Everyone thinks they are knowledgeable but the reality is that there are many aspects of content in virtual worlds that have not been tested in any courts. Copyright protections, fair use, Terms of service, perms, transfers by a legal entity between different accounts, regional differences, backups etc etc would all come into play and haven’t even been tried to any degree in S/L never mind the more complicated Opensimulator. Each and every person who has posted here, Opensim Virtual and many blogs, posts and inworld have proven that there is a wide range of opinions out there with varying degrees of permissability regarding the use of content obtained from outside of Opensimulator itself.
      On the face of this “spirited” discussion it is about alleged content theft but the undertones are about a small minority attempting to control and dictate what others are allowed to do with the some of the content found around the Opensim metaverse even though the content is not theirs to begin with. There are procedures that make it very easy for the original creators to take down any content that is actually theirs as well as multiple mediums frequented by Opensimmer’s where those creators could voice their displeasure. Very few have done so.
      Your idea of “rival gangs of endorsers” will not give you much of anything as the more permissive ones aren’t trying to enforce their will on the rest of the populace. Their endorsements are mostly done with their feet as one of the deleted posts showed with the number crunching stats. If you want what is out there, great. If you don’t, great.
      In the end it is your own conscience that needs to be your guide, not some polled and skewed comments on a site catering to the commercial population of Opensim whose views are based more on what that content might do to their bottom line long term rather then any ethical or legal considerations.

      •' Philip Rosseter says:

        1. If someone makes something I like and offers it to me for free, I want it.
        2. If someone makes something I like and offers to sell it to me, I want it.
        3. If a third party offers me the service of making 1 or 2 more conveniently available, I want it.
        4. If a third party offers me something the maker didn’t want me to have or wanted to be paid for, I don’t want it.
        5. If a third party offers me the service of obscuring the distinction between 3 and 4, I don’t want it.
        My conscience requires information to distinguish the cases. I’m not interfering with you unless your conscience requires you not to know.

  17.' Han Held says:

    Deleting Oopsee’s comments ad-hoc was a horrific mistake, from a strategic point of view. It was very clear that Oopsee had nothing to say, and no reason or actual justification for her stance. It would have been better to let those comments stand so that people could see for themselves their vacuousness and learn from it. It was an opportunity for business owners and pro-ip folks to “know your enemy” but now it’s gone. It’s not even a question of moral or immoral; it’s a question of strategy and taking advantage of an opportunity.

    By deleting those posts you’ve squandered that opportunity, and that is an honest-to-god shame.

  18.' Dorena Verne says:

    Just Bento and co are the big topic when it comes to theft again. But let’s face it. Start from the OpenSim story, moving content from SL to OS.
    A large part of the OS residents make in my opinion what if they think
    that their entire inventory comes exclusively from Opensimproduktion …

  19.' Lurker says:

    My two cents if you are going to delete comments it would be nice to share why you did it? Was due to personal attacks? Didn’t like the authors opinion? Clarity would be nice.

    •' lmpierce says:

      This is for Lurker, and for all readers… Comments may be deleted by myself as the moderator, and they may be deleted by the person who posted them. I do not offer public explanations or speculations over reader actions regarding posting, editing or deleting of their own comments. On occasion I post a note explaining a moderation action on my part, but not always. In any event, as indicated in the Discussion Guidelines, the way to clarify the actions you see take place in the discussions regarding moderation is to contact me directly at [email protected]. Thanks!

    •' Cinder Biscuits says:

      Because you’re socked.

  20.' Frank Marchall says:

    I do not believe that Creators will come at all to Opensim grids, for 1) Its all free 2) not secure 3) Most Grids are open, so not a closed sim what would be more secure hence no Hypergrid then. I asked several on Second Life can you put a GM meter and server or DCS on Opensim? As they are free anyway so whats the point (To also play GOR) on Opensim the answer from the GM creator was directly a NO, from DCS as he is in the same group as I am he would think about it but it turned into a NO same reason the grids are to open and the software not secure enough, on top most run their simulators on a simple PC and not on a real Xeon Server. Anyway in short that’s what I think in global its a hobby not a company like Linden Labs and small if you compare the users on line, some users on Opensim want Mesh and Bento and nice outfits but there are no Creators as most will not do this for free, as a hobby lets say only some say Opensim is no SL while it looks real close to how SL looks, I mean it not a complete new project what looks different in case this would not happen. Could even not happen .. Be safe.

    Best regards,

    •' Cinder Biscuits says:

      Thank you for saying the same thing as everybody else has said for the past eight years and bringing nothing new to the discussion.

      •' Frank Marchall says:

        There is nothing new, I did ask on SL for the FREE GM meter en Server no way to get that nor the DCS meter, and also this did happen the past eight years and that will not chance, if they do not share FREE Gorean Meters they for certain will not share content where you need to pay for.

  21.' Frank Marchall says:

    One thing on stolen items or copybot items, in general, HG or Hypergrid is an real great way to teleport from grid to grid like SL in 2007 it was I believe, however they closed all the doors, meaning there is only a frontdoor for users to login and it gets a bit harder to travel with stolen items from grid to grid as there is no HG on SL, if opensim grids would decide to only let avatars travel but not items that’s already a plus, the door is open but only for avatars, then the frontdoor or the viewer login restricted to certain viewers with some real encrypted viewer ID could also help, of course somebody with an external copybot software could still do this but there are many ways to block that to in a certain way. People could also use Halcyon as it has no HG and the structure is a bit different well taking with Moses about a blocking routine on the frontdoor and a UUID/Avatar Encrypted traveler is not perfect but its progress.

    The goal is to get content creators on your grid and that they do not work for free.
    Because how it is now, HG users often look like unknownxxx and items are even on other names or on the name of some unknownxxx that makes it so easy don’t you agree?

    Best regards,

  22.' Frank Marchall says:

    Just a short question why is my post deleted / removed?

  23.' Kiri Dovidov says:

    while I see only violations Hypergrid Business 1.3.The copyright to the image of any region in the Sacrarium belong to their creators and the Sacrarium team. Publications in social media and / or other publications of screenshots and screencasts of Sacrarium locations without the written permission of the owners is prohibited. Violation of this rule means infringement of copyright law. Violators can be banned and / or brought to trial.
    The rest is just plain unreasonable words

  24.' Wind says:

    I love these people. They are like Robin Hoods, they are taken from the rich and given to the poor. I respect them.

  25.' Salie Davis says:

    I am new to the virtual world. I have been mucking about for one year. If it wasn’t for being in a masters degree for learning in emerging technologies I may have never ventured into it at all. I believe I have likely broken many rules via ignorance alone. Like walking around in a foreign country insulting everyone as I go, all unknowingly. I have proactively tried to learn and having this conversation resurface, though old to some, is exactly what new people need. Hypergrid Business has been a life saver of resources where they are far and few between for those not knowing where to look. I am forever inspired by those who have offered open source items. In my excitement to explore and learn and build I always worry about breaking an unforgivable “rule” an unwittingly using an item I thought was open source, being banned, shunned, or otherwise forever marred in name and spirit. I have hoped that as I flounder, if I make mistakes, I will be approached and coached rather than simply labeled a thief. I hope to learn and become precise enough in my abilities to mirror some of those contributors I have come to admire. Looking at the bigger picture it is the kindness of OS that I hope will always over shadow those that err or seek to profit.

    •' Han Held says:

      Welcome 🙂
      I can’t speak for anyone else, but for myself I just do my best and when I mess up I generally cop to it. That keeps things from biting me on the rear too badly. There’s antagonism, rivalries, etc etc as you can see from this comment section (and from your own lurking, I’m sure). Honestly, do your best, and remember the whole “you can’t please all of the people all of the time” rule.

      Also, I just teased Arielle about her comment about the forums, but she is right. For all the heat and flame these generate the more time you spend in-world the more connections you’ll make. Eventually you’ll find and gravitate to your own crowd.

      Other than that …it’s all trial and error.

      Oh, and you will be shunned. By some.
      But embraced by others. 🙂

  26.' Lara Nguya says:

    I think that there is not just one problem, but a whole spectrum of problems with the misuse of creator’s builds in Opensim. Among those problems is ignorance and stupidity. I am aware that many people who come to Opensim do not know the first thing about permissions on builds. Many who do are unaware that the permission function is there for a purpose. However, I am equally aware that many people who have enjoyed working within Opensim also know all about permissions, why they are there, how to alter them illegally and also how to change the creator’s name on an object.

    What I see around Opensim is a blatant misuse of property and creator’s rights. Only today, I confronted an experienced member of Opensim who had copied a series of objects that were on sale in my several shops and altered the permissions so that these items were then put up for sale by a different owner. In these instances, my name as creator remained on the items. But when I confronted the perpetrator with a polite series of IM’s, I got nothing but verbal abuse and was then muted. I give this as an ongoing example of what is happening.

    Worse is when the creator’s name is altered on an object. Again, my experience is that the people who do this are experienced members and they have no qualms about presenting the objects for anyone to inspect. On an occasion this year, one of my fretted string instruments appeared in Opensim with another name as the creator. The fact that I actually had my name inscribed inside the instrument to be seen by anyone who looked inside the sound hole showed me how blatantly this sort of thing goes on around us. This was not the first time that same member had changed the creator’s name on my builds.

    If this problem is to be dealt with, the first thing that must be recognised is that the Opensim committee, the administrators who are elected to run Opensim admin matters, have a duty to respond to any report of misappropriate use of creations in Opensim. Unless that responsibility is recognised by the committee members themselves, there is really no point in pursuing the issue much further. I await developments in that regard.

    •' JozeeTungsten says:

      Sorry Lara the last time I checked there is no Opensim committee, and if there was there would not be anything they could do. Individual grid owners can respond to complaints, and this generally just results in the offending party moving to another grid or just starting their own. As long as Opensimulator software can be installed as a hypergrid enabled standalone, anybody can rip any object either with god mode or by directly accessing the database. IMHO encrypting the entire database or the uuid fields might be a way to slow this down.

      •' Lara Nguya says:

        You are right Jozee and I apologise for being glib. When I said the Opensim committee, what I should have said was (any) Opensim grid committee for that is what I meant. However, I believe strongly in working with people and that apathy and complacency will not solve the problem that this post is all about. I have great faith in what small can do in the face of adversity and there is a lot to be done.