Reporting issues cause stats drop this month

OpenSim grids reported a net fall in both regions and active users this month, but the regions drop was due to one grid with server issues, and the active users drop was due to a couple of grids that had problems with their stats.

Overall, OpenSim lost 975 active users this month, with DreamNation, which had 559 actives last month, not reporting its active user numbers and Sinful moving to a new hosting provider. The Public World also suffered some server issues, resulting in a drop of more than 400 actives on that grid alone.

And the number of regions went down by 839 standard region equivalents, as Virtual Worlds Grid turned off the less-used servers to allow for a greater than usual load on its welcome regions. That led to a net drop of 2,380 regions on that grid alone.

Without these issues, both land area and active user numbers would have shown an increase this month.

Meanwhile, registered user numbers went up by 13,228, the highest gain in the last two years.

There are now 272 active grids, which represents a six percent increase or an additional 16 grids this month.

Party Destination Grid gained the highest number of registered users — 3661, but that’s only because they just made their grid public and we added their data to our list this month. They still had the registered users or most of them before becoming public. Kitely gained 2028 and InWorldz gained 1551 new registered users. All the rest had less than 500 new registered users with OSgrid closest at 452 and Island Oasis 328.

The number of hypergrid enabled regions, which reached a record high in January, fell by 700 regions this month.

Land area of OpenSim’s public grids, in standard region equivalents. (Hypergrid Business data.)

OpenSim is a free, open source virtual world platform that’s compatible with the Oculus Rift. It allows people with no technical skills to quickly and cheaply create virtual worlds, and then teleport to other virtual worlds. Those with technical skills can run OpenSim worlds on their own servers for free, while commercial hosting starts at less than $5 a region — compared to $300 a region for the same land in Second Life.

A list of hosting providers is here. Download the recommended Firestorm viewer here. And find out where to get content for your OpenSim world or region here.


When it comes to general-purpose social grids, especially closed grids, the rule of thumb is: the busier, the better. People looking to make new friends look for grids that already have the most users. Merchants looking to sell content will go to the grids with the most potential customers. Event organizers looking for the biggest audience… you get the idea.

Top 25 most popular grids this month:

  1. InWorldz: 5276 active users
  2. OSgrid: 4040 active users
  3. Metropolis: 3678 active users
  4. DigiWorldz: 1682 active users
  5. AllCity: 1439 active users
  6. Kitely: 1410 active users
  7. Island Oasis: 1406 active users
  8. Craft World: 1202 active users
  9. Great Canadian Grid: 1146 active users
  10. Lost Paradise: 1085 active users
  11. Genesis MetaVerse: 941 active users
  12. Party Destination Grid: 833 active users
  13. Eureka World: 793 active users
  14. Virtual-EPI: 636 active users
  15. Exo-Life: 636 active users
  16. YrGrid: 554 active users
  17. ZanGrid: 517 active users
  18. FrancoGrid: 453 active users
  19. EdMondo: 447 active users
  20. 3rd Rock Grid: 429 active users
  21. Dynamic Worldz: 395 active users
  22. Anettes Welt: 394 active users
  23. Naras Nook: 365 active users
  24. The Adult Grid: 355 active users
  25. Refuge Grid: 318 active users

The Party Destination Grid is on the most popular list for the first time. The grid, which had previously run in private mode, opened up to the public this month and we began tracking its stats.

As mentioned before, Sinful Grid and The Public World both saw a drop in active user numbers. The other biggest change on this list was that InWorldz lost 210 active users, though it retained its spot as the most popular grid.

InWorldz’ share of all active OpenSim users has fallen from a high of 40 percent in the summer of 2012 to its current low of just 15 percent. But the next-most-popular grid, OSgrid, still has a long ways to go before it catches up.

InWorldz also has the highest number of registered users of any grid, at 164,806, with OSgrid in second place at 115,300. InWorldz is also a grid that brings in a lot of new users. This month, it reported 1,551 new registrations, second only to Kitely with its 2,018 new users.

InWorldz is a closed commercial grid, meaning that users cannot teleport to other grids, go shopping on other grids, attend events there, join hypergrid groups, or send messages to friends on other grids. OSgrid and Kitely both allow their users to teleport to other grids.

In fact, many closed grids have either been moving to the hypergrid, losing users, or shutting down over the past few years. Today, non-InWorldz closed grids total just 1,526 active users, or about 4 percent of OpenSim’s active user base.

(Hypergrid Business Data.)

The hypergrid also offers more renting options for users, with average prices lower than on InWorldz, and some grids allow users to connect their own home-based regions for free. In fact, several grids offer free parcels or even entire regions to users. As a result, hypergrid-enabled grids currently account for more than 95 percent of all OpenSim land area.

The full list of all hypergrid-enabled grids, ranked by traffic numbers, can be found here.

Kitely Market now reaches 185 grids

Kitely’s online shopping platform, the Kitely Market, now exports to a total of 185 OpenSim grids. There are currently 9,104 products listed in Kitely Market containing 17,429 product variations, of which 12,502 are exportable.

Growth in exportable and non-exportable content on the Kitely Market. (Kitely data.)

Ever since Kitely turned on the hypergrid export functionality, exportable content has been growing at a much faster rate than non-exportables, as merchants increasingly become comfortable to selling to the hypergrid.

VirTec Network sales down slightly

The total revenue for the 72 merchants using the VirTec vending network for the month was $475, a drop of 17 percent from last month.

InWorldz still had the highest number of merchants with 14 merchants, followed by DigiWorldz with 10 merchants, although Genesis Metaverse had the highest number of  transactions with 195 transactions. InWorldz had 179 transactions while DigiWorldz had 90 transactions.

February spending, in US dollars, on individual grids. (VirTec data.)

Twelve more grids adopt Gloebits multi-grid currency

The number of grids that use the Gloebits currency on one or more regions has grown from three to 15 over the past month, Gloebits CEO Christopher Colosi told Hypergrid Business, and the list now includes OSgrid and DigiWorldz.

Some of the grids accepting Gloebits are listed on the Gloebits app discovery page.

“I expect to see a couple more pop up on the discovery page by the end of the week,” Colosi said.

For example, one grid which has recently deployed the currency is 3rd Life Grid, which now has two Gloebits shopping regions. Both local and hypergrid merchants can sell products on these regions. Creators from other grids can contact DJTommy Seetan to set them up with the shop, grid spokesman Gary Justus told Hypergrid Business.

The hypergrid address is Stores 3.

Sinful Grid has also added a shopping region named Sinful Grid Gloebit Mall just for Gloebit purchases. The grid is offering free stores, each with up to 400 prims.

The hypergrid address for the Gloebits Mall is Grid Gloebit Mall.

Grids can opt to have the entire grid use the Gloebits currency, or enable individual regions. Other regions can have no currency at all, or a grid’s own currency. More info about Gloebits and how they work is here.

Total transactions, in US Dollars, and total users on the Gloebits platform. (Gloebit data.)

Gloebits processed about 100,000 Gloebits, the equivalent of about US $400, between January 28 and February 28, and this month is on track to process about 180,000 Gloebits, or $720, said Colosi.

The currency first launched last summer, on Mobius Grid, but really took off last month when the platform began allowing merchant cash-outs.

In addition to more grids signing up, more users did as well. Gloebits had 200 people using the currency as of the end of 2016, and has more than doubled since then to 471.

ZanGrid Hypershopping I and II regions are also Gloebit-enabled. (Image courtesy ZanGrid.)

AviWorlds is back online, and back in the garage

After a short-lived experiment with getting hosting from a solid, reputable provider, AviWorlds is back in its garage after the owner failed to pay for their servers on time.

The grid has also changed its loginURI, to  A few regions are back online and the grid is open to visitors. There’s no website yet, but the Facebook page is back up.

The rest of the functionality will be built by this summer, grid owner Alexsandro Pomposelli told Hypergrid Business.

“Its not full power yet,” he said. “It has a few regions online until June, when I will go full power with ads, bill boards on the beach in Brazil and also building structure for the grid.”

And he still plans to give away 1,000 free regions.

“Only the ones that can build an entire region, knows how to build or can pay someone to build it for them will qualify for the free region,” he said. “The ones that cant build yet will get a plot 4,096 square meters with 937 prims already built for them with a home and all.”

The grid shut down earlier this month with no warning to residents. At first, because the social media accounts were also closed and Pomposelli could not be reached by anyone, we counted the grid as closed. But since it was up relatively quickly, and there was no official announcement of closing, we’re going to count it as a temporary outage instead of a full shutdown. That means that AviWorlds has closed up shot nine times, and is now in its tenth incarnation.

Public Grid is back online, has a new server

Public Grid, which had some server issues for a few days, is now back online and running, and most of the regions are back as well, according to a Saturday post. Owners of affected avatars may need to re-register. The loginURI has not changed and is still but users may need to double-check that their viewer settings are correct.

The grid has put in place a second server to avoid future problems but is testing everything on it before bringing it online, said the announcement.

Public Grid is now back online. (Image courtesy David Kariuki.)

Party Destination, PMGrid offering free land

Party Destination Grid, a closed grid that has been in testing for two years and opened to the public this year, is offering its first 100 regions for free to content creators, of which 50 regions are still left. Communities or schools can also claim free land for learning and teaching purposes.

Those who claim the free land  are required to create content for the free region within four months. But users can also opt for a plot measuring 7400 sqm or a store if a region is too big for you to create and fill content, grid owner Aleš Moškon told Hypergrid Business.

Aleš Moškon

“We allow users to upload OAR or IAR files but first we all check with our own mechanism if everything is legal,” he said.

Once testing is done, the team will charge US $27 for a full region.

The grid is not hypergrid-enabled, but is currently working on setting up Kitely Market deliveries.

The lack of hypergrid access is due to security concerns, he said.

“As we all know hypergrid is not so great if it’s in the wrong hands,” he said. However, they have users from all over the world, he said.

Another grid which has recently announced a new free land offer is PM Grid, one of the oldest grids in OpenSim. The grid celebrated its ninth anniversary last month and is hypergrid-enabled.

The grid is offering free regions to builders and the land is given according to what the user wants to use it for, grid owner Bob Wellman told Hypergrid Business.

“I talk to them to see what they want build and try to, as far as I can, allocate enough land for that,” he said. “That could be a parcel a standard region or a large var region. The only proviso is use it or lose it.”

More free land options are listed on our Free Land in OpenSim page.

Sinful Grid moves to DigiWorldz hosting

Sinful Grid Welcome Center. (Image courtesy Sinful Grid.)

Sinful Grid has moved to DigiWorldz, a change that has come with some upgrades and new functionalities such as search and offline IM to email. Users need to update the viewer URL to  and migrate their account to the new service to change to the new control panel, Sinful Grid CEO Tony Moore told Hypergrid Business.

The grid has also posted new land prices, with a 15,000-prim region available for $14 per month.

Users who rented regions under the previous price schedule can keep their existing prices, Moore added.


Twelve new grids were added to our list this month, including Party Destination Grid, Gnosis Grid, UpSideDownFriends, Survgrid Otago, OpenSim Pride 2017, WedjLok, MisFitz Grid, Relic, Microgrid Sundance, Ancient Rome and Outworldz.lnk.

The following 11 grids were suspended this month: Bess Research, HyperWild, KoolPheller Estates, Montefiorino, Open Dream, Osirus, Regno Di Camlaan, Second World, Unreal, Virtual Final World, and Watcher’s World.

Grids that have been suspended for more than two months will be marked as closed. If your grid isn’t on the active grids list, and not on the suspended list, it may have been marked closed when it shouldn’t be. Please let us know.

And if there’s a public grid we’re not tracking, please email us at [email protected]. There’s no centralized way to find OpenSim grids, so if you don’t tell us about it, and Google doesn’t alert us, we won’t know about it.

By “public,” we mean grids that allow hypergrid visitors, or have a website where people can register for or request accounts.

In addition, if a grid wants to be included in the monthly stats report and the most active and largest grid lists, it needs to have a stats page that shows the number of unique 30-day logins, and the total number of regions on the grid. In order for the grid not to be undercounted, 30-day active users stat should include hypergrid visitors, and the land area should be in the form of standard region equivalents, square meters, or square kilometers.

March Region Counts on the Top 40 Grids

The list below is a small subset of existing OpenSim grids. We are now tracking a total of 1,216 different publicly-accessible grids, 272  of which were active this month, and 194 of which published their statistics.

All region counts on this list are, whenever available, in terms of standard region equivalents. Active user counts include hypergrid visitors whenever possible.

Many school, company or personal grids do not publish their numbers.

The raw data for this month’s report is here. A list of all active grids is here. And here is a list of all the hypergrid-enabled grids and their hypergrid addresses, sorted by popularity. This is very useful if you are creating a hyperport.

You can see all the historical OpenSim statistics here — dating all the way back to 2009. Including polls and surveys.

Below are the 40 largest grids by total land area, in terms of standard region equivalents.

Related Posts

David Kariuki

David Kariuki is a technology journalist who has a wide range of experience reporting about modern technology solutions. A graduate of Kenya's Moi University, he also writes for Cleanleap, and has previously worked for Resources Quarterly and Construction Review. Email him at [email protected].

141 Responses

  1.' Destiny Moore says:

    Thank you David for the colorful comments and the great article. We at Sinful Grid, are very thankful to be a part of this ever growing community.

  2.' Da Hayward says:

    Great article David!
    Oh welcome to the DigiWorldz family Destiny, I am certain Butch and the team will give you a wonderful experience

  3.' lmpierce says:

    “OpenSim is a free, open source virtual world platform that’s compatible with the Oculus Rift.” True, but with the qualification that although OpenSim is accessible with Mac-based viewers, Rift development changed from the original plan and Mac is not currently supported.

    •' XMIR Grid says:

      I am not sure there is any point in even mentioning Oculus Rift support at this point in time as viewer support is close to inexistent.

      Even Linden Lab has said they are not going to bother for SecondLife as they don’t see any way of making the viewer produce the 2 x 60 fps needed for a proper stereoscopic view. it would require a complete rewrite ala Sansar, and even there they are struggling.

    •' Peter says:

      IMO advertising OpenSim as a VR platform is extremely disingenous and only bound to disappoint newcomers. VR only works with a single consumer headset (and not even the most popular one), and only with a single viewer (which has been abandoned and is no longer being maintained). A future updated model of the Rift or even just a driver update for existing models could instantly break the support. Firmware updates from Oculus have already forced developers to update and recompile their VR software before in the past to maintain compatibility. It’s happened before (I speak from experience), and it will happen again. Just a matter of time.

      At this point advertising OpenSim as a VR platform only gets people’s hopes up for a feature that is extremely fragile and inevitably going to break in the future.

      •' Arielle says:

        Opensim as well as S/L VR is possible with Lumiya on any bargain bin VR headset with a reasonably good smart phone.

        “Lumiya works with Google Cardboard and provides full VR experience for Second Life world.”

        I myself have tried it multiple times on a $10 VR headset in Opensim using an LG5 phone and some older phones on previous versions of Lumiya with a Bluetooth mouse for control.

        • David says:

          Yes, that could be a great way. I tried Lumiya but didn’t know it works with Google Cardboard. That should be my next thing to try! Thanks Arielle

        •' noxluna says:

          hi arielle, would love to know your thoughts on the experience you had with that

          •' Arielle says:

            It’s different but I need more practice in moving around as well as keeping an eye on chat, IM’s etc. The field of view is also a bit limiting in that I haven’t found a way to cam about. It might be possible but since i am still learning and haven’t discovered it as yet. I think too though that the S/L OS viewers may have spoiled us in the amount of options we have available to us for interacting within world so that VR headsets seem more for viewing then interacting. My next purchase will be a bluetooth keyboard for the phone so that will hopefully give me a greater degree of control within the virtual environment and augment the options available.

          •' noxluna says:

            i tried to use it on my phone (samsung s7) but the terrain/world doesnt load, nor my avi…just other prims and meshes. i have tried googling for a “fix” but have found nothing…very sad making

          •' Arielle says:

            I think VR works in First person view so shouldn’t see our avatar anyway but i noticed that I had problems with the terrain/world not loading yesterday when i was playing with it. After seeing you had the same issue I thought what it could be and realized I had installed the Google Cardboard app from the play store when i saw the link come up in settings and it messaged that to configure the viewer I needed that app. The Cardboard app only seems to be for setting the viewer type I had and since it wasn’t listed I chose what I thought was the closest to it. The world and terrains did not load after that. Instead of experimenting I just uninstalled the Cardboard app and now I again have everything loading in the default VR mode which works fine. Hopefully your issue is as easily resolved.

          •' noxluna says:

            i will try that and thank you so much arielle!

        •' Peter says:

          That’s neat, thank you for informing me. Unfortunately I don’t own any Android devices that can handle Lumiya.

  4.' Fanny says:

    ” OSgrid and Kitely both allow their users to teleport to other grids.” – Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I think you’ll find there are more than just those 2 grids that allow their users to teleport to other grids.

    •' lmpierce says:

      Right… the statement was a continuation of the previous comparison between InWorldz and Kitely for the highest number of new registrations and the point was being made that InWorldz is closed versus Kitely which is open. The statement did not imply that there weren’t other open (or for that matter, closed) grids.

      In fact, the next sentence of the following paragraph begins: “In fact, many closed grids have either been moving to the hypergrid, losing users, or shutting down over the past few years.” And this paragraph ends with a strong affirmation regarding the hypergrid: “As a result, hypergrid-enabled grids currently account for more than 95 percent of all OpenSim land area.”.

  5.' XMIR Grid says:

    A small update on XMIR. Everything is up and running on the servers, but I am not sure when I will be in a position to let people back in.

    The short story is that in August I had a small heart attack, which they found was triggered by a 7 day stop in a medication we had to do to draw a blood sample not skewed by that medication. The CT and Angiography showed that the artery supplying the left half of the heart was blocked, but compensating vessels had formed so it sort of worked under normal load. I was therefore scheduled for an open chest coronary graft procedure in early October.

    The operating hospital sent me right back home because they found it too risky to go through the procedure as I had developed GI bleeding from the blood thinners administered after the heart attack, and they had to use a lot more of those during and after the procedure.

    In January this year it was determined we just “had to” go through with the procedure, which happened 5 weeks ago. The procedure itself is successful, but it resulted in a larger GI bleeding that is still ongoing, but no longer dangerous. In addition the heart is beating too slow for comfort, so the hospital is on the task of getting it back to where it needs to be. As a consequence of this I am currently very tired and unable to concentrate much more than half an hour at the time.

    So the little effort I can put in for the time being is going into the Kokua viewer.
    – We actually built a new release version of Kokua for OpenSim yesterday which you should get your hands on shortly. Because of the above, there are only bug fixes and minor improvements in this version compared to the version we released in September.

    When I regain my ability to concentrate again it will be possible to make more drastic changes to the viewer. My current feeling is that XMIR will only be a test grid for the viewer, but people will again be able to visit when I have the strength to cope with it.

    That’s how it is right now.

  6.' SkyLifeGrid says:

    Keep up the good work Alex Determination is what will make you succeed .. I hope you and the family are well. You old Friend Josh B

    •' Alex Ferraris says:

      Hey Josh thank you. I am sorry about your father. I tried contacting you but I cant find your facebook page and I dont have your cell number. Says private the records that I have. Hope all as well with you my friend.

  7.' Alex Ferraris says:

    My opinion is that you can only say the grid SHUT DOWN for good when it does shut down for good like Avination. AviWorlds was down 10 times or so. NOT SHUT DOWN. It was down and I have lifted up every single time it goes down.
    I had a huge family problem this month I am keeping it private because it involved another person, a family member and I dont want to expose the privacy of the matter.
    I did tell BUTCH I would be able to pay the following Friday and he gave me 1 day grace. So it is what is it.

    AviWorlds is up and running and it has never been SHUT DOWN. It was down for periods of times.

    Thank you very much


    •' Fanny says:

      *yawn*. You know what Alex? You’re probably the single biggest reason Second Life users see Opensim as one big joke.


    •' Butch Arnold says:

      Hi Alex.. you said…
      “I did tell BUTCH I would be able to pay the following Friday and he gave me 1 day grace.”

      Please look back at your skype messages starting on Wednesday March 1st.
      What you are putting out to everyone is not true.

      •' Alex Ferraris says:

        I think that conversation was over emails. I said would only have the money the following friday. but look Butch its ok. Its over. Case closed. I really enjoyed your service. Excellent! Thank you!
        This conversation is also over. Thanks for everything BUTCH!

        •' Thelma Marks says:

          For someone that is happy with their services you sure keep trying to make others look bad for your own mistakes. Do us all a favor and join a grid like Kitely. Load up your oars and be done with it. This is getting old!

          •' Alex Ferraris says:

            Thelma please ok…I am simply giving my opinion and I am entitled to do that. You like kitely thats ok it is your waste of cash not mine. I own my own machines now which I think is a lot better than depending on a 3rd party. I tried digiwordz hosting and I loved it ok. But it did not work out and it was not DigiWorldz fault.

        •' Butch Arnold says:

          Hello Alex,
          You did not say that, the conversation happened on skype.
          I too would like to put it all behind us and move on, but I really am disappointed you are implying you said you would pay a week later and that’s just not the truth.
          Like I said, I would be happy to post screenshots of the skype conversation with your permission?
          Do I have your permission to show the exchange so everyone else can see that what you are saying is wrong?
          The choice is yours, I think you should be telling everyone what really happened, or let me prove what was said by sharing a few screenshots.
          As I’ve said before, you’re most welcome, and thank you for trying our services.

          •' Alex Ferraris says:

            I have the email where I say I would not be able to pay ontime only the friday after…But its ok Butch I am not trying to make you look bad at all.
            It is only a suggestion that perhaps you can give a longer grace period. Thats all. Dont worry about it. Like I said it here over and over again I really enjoyed your service THE BEST I ever employed!
            Take care now.

          •' Butch Arnold says:

            Hi Alex,
            I’m sorry, but that Email could not exist, because I never had any email exchanges with you regarding this matter as it all happened on Skype.

            I’m not going to sit by and watch you imply things to the public which aren’t true without defending myself.
            You say our hosting was great, but then you say things about this specific situation which aren’t true.. maybe to try to save “face” in the whole matter, I don’t know, but I won’t sit by and watch it go on without making sure my side is heard.

            I must have been crazy to think if I treated you with fairness and respect I wouldn’t have the same issues with you as many others have indicated having with you.
            I seem to have been wrong as you seem to be indicating I was unfair in some way and that you are the victim here.
            Let’s be clear, in my opinion the only victims here are your users.
            They counted on you to do what you said you would do, in the same way I counted on you to do what you said you would do.
            You failed on both.

            Now, in what looks like a meager attempt to save your reputation, you seem to be pointing to our “Unfair” billing policies as to the reason your grid went down again.

            Let’s be clear and honest here… You knew at the time of your initial order the bill would be due again in a month. You’ve already confirmed our billing program had sent several reminders to you starting about 2 weeks prior to your bill being due, so you knew for 2 weeks it was coming.

            On the day before your billing due date, which was a thursday, you requested me to wait until Friday at which time I agreed… then you went “Missing”.

            I’m not a victim here, as our policies and our decisions kept us from becoming a victim.
            You were not a victim here as we clearly were fair, honest, and as you have indicated already, we provided the great service.

            Your inability to pay your bill and the fact you didn’t keep your word is what caused this issue.
            The only victims here are your users who had counted on you doing what you said you would do.
            I was willing to give you a “Fair Shake”, so to speak.. I was willing to ignore everything I had read and heard about you as I knew “We” could keep your grid online for you as our track record speaks for itself.

            As I said, things were rolling along fine until you did exactly as you have reportedly done in the past.
            You confirmed with me to be exactly the type of grid owner I had read and heard you were, one who could not be counted on, and one who points fingers at others when your decisions cause issues.

            We made every attempt at providing you a stable platform on which to build your “Dream”. Your inability to do “Your Part” is what caused it to fail. Remember, if you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always gotten.

            Take a look at your skype history Alex.. it’s all right there… Not only did I leave this info on Skype, but I also sent emails containing the exact same info to your email address.

            Wednesday the 1st @ 7:44pm EST.. you sent me a message on skype indicating you knew your bill was due on the 2rd which was a Thursday but you asked if you could pay it on Friday.
            I said sure, but also told you at that time it had to be paid by Friday evening before midnight or the servers would be shutdown.
            You thanked me, and apologized, indicating you didn’t get your funds until Friday.. and also said that yes, Friday will be good.
            Then you went completely silent.
            I left a message for you on skype on Friday afternoon at 3:20pm asking if you were still on schedule to have your server paid that night before midnight… and reminded you they would be turned off after that if not paid.
            At 9:03 I left another message because I had not yet heard from you letting you know we only had 4 hours to go and we should shutdown your grid so I could grab backups of your databases. I asked what you wanted me to do.

            15 minutes before midnight I again sent a message letting you know I was shutting down the grid and databases.

            At 4 minutes past midnight I sent another message letting you know the servers were offline and told you to let me know what your intentions were as we would lose the servers for good on Sunday.. after that we would need to start from scratch again.

            At 11:19 on Saturday I sent another message to you letting you know one of your users had contacted me wanting to know what was going on and I indicated I had told him I was aware the servers were offline, but I could not share the reasons with him and I had not been able to get hold of you. I also indicated again, it was important you get hold of me before Sunday night or you would risk losing everything on those servers, including your backups.

            On Sunday, March 5th at 8:03pm I left yet another message for you on skype and also sent the same to your email indicating you only had 5 hours left to get this sorted out or you would lose everything on the servers.

            It’s also important for everyone to know, during our short dealings, previous to this exchange starting on Friday, you had never ignored a skype post from me.. you had always responded within minutes of me leaving anything for you on skype.

            On Monday, March 6th I sent another message to you indicating your account at DigiWorldz had been cancelled and told you I would not be interested in helping you in the future.

            I’ve indicated you seemed like a nice guy and I had no issue with you until this incident.
            Again, I thank your for the fair report on our grid hosting services, but I’m very disappointed you seem to be trying to point the finger at us and our “Unfair” billing policies for your loss when it was really lack of you “Doing your part”.

            As I said, give me permission to share screenshots of my skype and everyone here can see things exactly as they happened and there will be no confusion.
            I’m not afraid to let everyone see the screenshots… are you? If not, give me permission Alex.. then the community can know the truth as it happened and not as you are implying.

            Just give me permission to post our skype exchange.. that will clear everything up.
            Not sure why you seem to be ignoring my request to post those screenshots?
            You’re not trying to keep that from everyone here?
            It’s funny how some people think if they say something enough times, it seems to make it true.
            The truth is, I have everything I need on my end to back up what I’ve said.. If you have nothing to hide alex.. simply give me your permission to post the screenshots… let everyone here know the truth.

          •' Alex Ferraris says:

            Hi Butch ..
            I am not questioning what you said on skype and neither I am questioning your right not to give more than 1 day grace. It is your business.
            I always said I did tell you that I could not renew the services. So I am not blaming on you. I also am not sayiing it is your fault.
            What you have explained above is correct.
            I am not talking about that. I am talking about you being able to give perhaps 7 days grace but it is merely a suggestion.
            All I am doing here was to suggest to you about a longer grace period. I am not talking bad about you or your services.
            I am not saying I asked you for a longer grace period neither. We discussed that I had a huge private problem and that was it. You did not offer a longer grace period. Thats all.
            No I am not trying to make you look bad and no I do not give you permission to expose our conversation because you also already said everything that we talked about on here anyway.

            So being all that said I do apologize to you if I made you feel uncomfortable for suggesting a longer grace period.

            Yes everyone knows the truth. I am a bad guy, bad grid owner as it is usually said on here.

            bye now.

          •' Butch Arnold says:

            Hi Alex.. I wish you luck.
            Additionally, I’ve never had any chat with you about “We discussed that I had a huge private problem and that was it. You did not offer a longer grace period. Thats all.”
            This reported discussion has never taken place and this statement is false.
            You also said… “I always said I did tell you that I could not renew the services.” and this is also false, you never indicated this to me in any way. This too is a false statement.

            This should tell the tale…
            you said.. “no I do not give you permission to expose our conversation”.

          •' Minethereé says:

            Row, row, row your boat,
            Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Gently down the stream.
            Row, row, row your boat,
            Life is but a dream.

            Everything is fine!!

          •' Thelma Marks says:

            The truth will set you free.

  8.' Da Hayward says:

    Its not the way to go. I definitely agree. But in saying that quite of a few grids do this (even some who paint themselves as the pillar of our community) Only way to stop it i guess is by blocking that grids access, but then you are also blocking potential future residents from your grid.

  9.' Minethereé says:

    The hyperverse keeps growing all the time. There is also a continuing increase in events. Things are very busy. And not just events, there is an ever growing imagination that is producing some wonderful builds, wonderful regions and varregions.

    Using the hypergrid and enjoying vast spaces that core opensimulator affords us, it is all a positive and sense of freedom more and more people are enjoying. Collaborations of all kinds across the hyperverse is fun to see happening so much.

    Some like to continue to spread FUD by stressing the security issues of Opensim, but they miss the point, and that kind of talk just takes one small part of what the Hyperverse is and tries to make it the ONLY thing about having hypergrid, it’s not, it is a small part of what it all means to a growing amount of people who are having fun and enjoying the best parts of OpenSim.

    Often blowing out of proportion a single issue and making it seem like it is the be all of hypergridding is those with negative agendas.

    They miss the point entirely and most are selfish people who just want to keep control.

    Denying their customers the freedoms of opensim only results in them losing more people who are smart enough to see past such restrictions. So they blame something else or someone else simply because they want to control their customers.

    But they are doing their customers a great disservice.


    More and more see this for what it is and leave for core opensim, and more and more have avatars in both places. Many, Many people I know still use SL and like it, and at the same time see core opensim for it’s advantages in so many ways.

    If someone is trying to divert you from the hypergrid it might be time to consider why they are saying so, what agenda does it serve, and follow the money in most cases you can see why.

    I like this Maria, “InWorldz is a closed commercial grid, meaning that users cannot teleport to other grids, go shopping on other grids, attend events there, join hypergrid groups, or send messages to friends on other grids. OSgrid and Kitely both allow their users to teleport to other grids.

    In fact, many closed grids have either been moving to the hypergrid, losing users, or shutting down over the past few years. Today, non-InWorldz closed grids total just 1,526 active users, or about 4 percent of OpenSim’s active user base.”

    because it spells out more reasons why the hypergrid enabled Metaverse is alive and growing daily. Check the facts folks before listening to those who try to limit you.

  10. David says:

    Tarber, thanks. The share of hypergrid-enabled land area (regions) (out of the total land area) didn’t change that much this month. It is still over 95 percent as per last month; just a 0.1 percent increase this month. This month’s 95.2 percent share is still the highest value so far

    •' Jim Tarber says:

      Right, but you did not indicate what the percentage change was for any other grid, such as the same percentage change for Kitely since 2012. Or Metropolis… or any other grid. So you’re just repeating the same weirdly misleading stat from last month, which implies a huge decline where none actually exists. The truth is the *total* has increased dramatically so roughly the same percentage changes apply to just about every grid, yet InWorldz is singled-out to look bad. Not nice, not fair to InWorldz, or your readers.

      • David says:

        Top 25 most popular grids this month: number one is InWorldz. Do you still want everyone to believe that the article was unfair to InWorldz? Really.

        I guess you need to read the article objectively from the start. Overall, OpenSim lost 975 active users this month and that was the article’s lead that needed to be explained further. Of the 975, InWorldz lost 210 active users.

        InWorldz was mentioned because it had the biggest change in the number of active users on the list. There are some other grids mentioned too. Did you see that?

        In my previous comment, I said there was an increase of 0.1 percent this month compared to last month…we aren’t repeating any stats.

        •' Jim Tarber says:

          I didn’t say the article was unfair, but rather that when the total number of grids is rising and the total number of actives across all grids is rising, reporting month after month that ONE of the grids is showing a decline *as a percentage*, from their own *peak*, is unfair. I’m pretty certain that, other than for exceptional cases (like new grids), that most grids are down, and by quite a bit, as a percentage of the total, from their own highest percentage of that total.

          So let’s just pick a grid that’s been around for some number of years. What was their peak actives count? When it was at their peak, what was their percentage of the total actives? What is their percentage of the total actives today? That’s what was done for one grid here, each month, but not the others. And since the total is growing pretty steadily, any established grid will likely be down over time, especially if you compare it to their own historical peak. By *definition*, it’s going to be lower, unless this month was their peak. So why is InWorldz chosen for this special treatment month after month? Have you considered the same test applied to other grids? Why not? I’m sorry, but this isn’t “sour grapes” here; it’s just that including that, especially more than once, is screaming that HGB is specifically looking for something bad to say, and without applying the same calculation to other grids. Okay fine. Post whatever you think you need to do in order to promote the hypergrid. I’m done here.

          • David says:

            You could concentrate on that sentence alone, and I could concentrate on the next sentence just after the one you are talking about. It has a lot of good things to say about InWorldz.

            I already explained why that sentence came by.

            We do not keep looking for anything negative or bad to say about OpenSim unless that makes a headline. We are always on the lookout for positive things to say for the best of everyone. And you see, an analysis is an analysis. You just say the facts because if you dont and take some things out, it seizes to be an analysis. It gives facts.

  11.' noxluna says:

    how are “closed” grids considered protected-content? copybot viewers and copybotters do not care if a grid is closed or an hg grid? Look at the “big” grid where most of the copybotting is done and its a closed grid

    •' Jim Tarber says:

      Grids on the hypergrid are directly connected to regions where the region owner can take full possession of a limited-permissions objects, copying no-copy objects, giving no-trans objects to others, reading no-mod scripts, etc., without using anything like a copybot viewer. It’s not a replica uploaded again after copybot usage; it’s actually the original object, with permissions violated, directly supported by the region server.

      The reality is that to display a texture at the viewer end, you need to give it to the viewer to apply (unless rendering is implemented server-side). But there should at least be proper server-side protection of content. With HG-enabled grids, there isn’t even that. So you might as well ship the dang thing full-perm anyway. Even with a copybot viewer, you can’t copy scripts on a protected grid, but you certainly can if they are allowed to be transmitted over the hypergrid.

      So I just find the claims that permissions are controlled on the Hypergrid to be the spreading of a falsehood. And markets that default to exportable to be a disservice to creators. Melanie called it “inviting wholesale permission exploits” and I believe she is one of the creators.

      •' Fanny says:

        HGB is never fair, I thought you’d of noticed that by now.

      •' noxluna says:

        Sorry Jim, but NOT all grids on the hypergrid allow region owners to do that, please do NOT spread such falsehoods yourself. Yes, there are some that do, but certainly not all of hypergrid is that way, furthermore items that are bought with a grid’s currency can be kept within a grid that is hypergrid enabled. So, we go back to the whole “protected content” closed grid. There is no such thing.

        •' Jim Tarber says:

          I did not actually say that all grids did. It only takes one that allows self-hosted regions to connect. (It is not uncommon: osgrid is one, but I think there are probably many.) On a self-hosted region, all bets are off.

          •' Moonrise Azalee says:

            Metro allows you to also, and with both OSgrid and Metro being hugely popular, there is a huge potential to take anyone’s items. There are many ‘free regions’ for rent and many are self hosted. Which means that region owner can simply ‘own’ all the tenants things no problem.

        •' Moonrise Azalee says:

          I’ve had a few regions over the past few years attached to various grids in opensim, in OSgrid and Metro and had the ability to take pretty much anything that was on my region. Boats with scripts, made for sale only, non transfer homes from some sellers on the market- I did some testing with some friends of mine that sell on Kitely market as well as just testing various permissions and I was able to take things, then could download the OAR to my computer and upload it all as mine. It’s not that hard to do. Yes a copybot viewer can be used anywhere but has limitations. I agree that really, nowhere is fully ‘safe’, but non exportable items make it a lot harder to steal.

          •' Arielle says:

            Non exportable items also shrink the potential market significantly. IW is really only limiting the choices of its creators and forcing them to go register an account elsewhere if they wish to have access to a market almost 7 times the size. Jim’s claim that the exportable markets are a disservice to the creators is fictitious because those markets that allow exports are giving creators the choice which IW doesn’t.
            What IW does is fine but remember too that in grid like metro and osgrid, should the grid close, have a catastrophic data loss etc, the residents unlike the late great Avination citizens will have their backups for those products they accumulated and have the choice of taking it to a new grid or importing it to a standalone.. As we saw from a previous article, the ex residents of Avination not only lost their credits but also any content they had in their inventories. Maybe they will at some point have access to them on a new grid if all the legalities are sorted but likely by that time the majority will have moved on and replaced that content already and suffer the loss. This is the problem with closed grids like S/L, Avination and perhaps IW. The day will come when the lights will go off and all inventory that was accumulated will be forever lost.

          •' mikka says:

            Yes indeed, IW and SL may well one day close down – but unlike certain others won’t appear magically then vanish after a few months (weeks in some cases) or rise from the dead repeatedly 🙂
            Now I love OS and gosh even have the odd bit available with export possible (at my discretion – never where it is the ‘default’ or all that nonsense so limited to grids I trust) but that is being aware of the ramifications.
            And a market ‘almost 7 times the size’? Multiple/non verifiable counted logins does not equal a market.

          •' Jim Tarber says:

            > “Jim’s claim that the exportable markets are a disservice to the creators
            is fictitious because those markets that allow exports are giving
            creators the choice which IW doesn’t.”

            My understanding is that the default is for market content to be exportable, it’s opt-out, not opt-in. Furthermore, some grids misuse the transfer permission to *imply* exportable when that removes the ability for creators to actually sell transferable items on that grid without them leaving the grid. This misuse of the permissions system is the disservice, and defaulting to allowing objects with limited permissions off-grid to where the permissions system is not fully supported is the disservice I’m referring to.

            I think users like Mikka (who also replied to you), who wants to export *some* items, at her discretion (and “never where it is the default”) would find this application of default-exportable to other less protected grids or where something is sold no-copy/trans (where that suddenly means exportable to places where everything is copyable without a copybot viewer) to be unexpected at best, perhaps even horrifying because it is so unexpected for a creator listing something with restricted perms.

            It may not be clear but I am a big fan of the OpenSim community, and the hypergrid, and traveling around and exploring, even if you consider a grid like InWorldz home. I think there are two quite different environments:

            – one where everything is full-perm, open-source and wonderfully free, and

            – the other environment where creators can invest a lot of time and money to produce more complex systems that need some form of content protection and a commercial sales environment.

            I think the larger and more popular one will be the open and free one where permissions aren’t really necessary. This is also the likely environment for corporate or educational worlds, like MOSES, schools, churches, social clubs, role-play grids. That is what OpenSim and hypergrid are most excellent at.

            On the other hand, if you are a creator who has invested a lot of time and/or money into developing something that you don’t want to give away for free, or what to provide with permissions restrictions, that is certainly not a candidate for hypergrid enabled worlds, where you can bring that content to self-hosted regions.

            The only real point I’m making with whole hypergrid vs protected comment is that it is completely disingenuous to claim a permissions system on a hypergrid-enabled world. It doesn’t exist. And that’s okay for the more common free edu/corp/org open permissionless worlds. But if you are being sold a claim that “no-copy” works on hypergrid, or anything like that, you’re being misled.

            I think it’s okay that permissions are ineffective, because those open-source/free worlds are hugely important in the non-commercial environments (e.g. MOSES, schools). But you won’t hear that from HGB because they don’t like to admit that “hypergrid” and “business” are self-contradictory when it comes to in-world products and economies. It does however make a lot more sense for running an actual business to provide services to organizations and users, like MOSES, or some school board, etc., like hosting, or backups, or custom development, etc. But if you’re a commercial creator, who wants to sell products that are *not* full-perm, especially *scripts*, then it makes sense for you to restrict your products to a closed grid.

            Here’s a specific example that may explain where I’m coming from here: I have a product I’m working on that was intended for *all* grids. It’s something that could bring the grids together. It’s a social/web/mobile product, and I was fairly heartbroken when I realized I couldn’t allow it on hypergrid enabled worlds. Not because I wanted to sell it, it will be free, but because the scripts include API keys that I cannot allow to fall into the hands of others, because they cost me money from Google and Microsoft cloud services. I can’t release that on HG-enable grids. So it will be SL and IW and some other grids that support protecting script content. That’s very disappointing.

            And then I see this blog and other markets advertising permission-protected exports to hypergrid-enabled grids and I feel bad for those creators that fall for it. But I also don’t want to be repeatedly pointing this out in posts. I tried to avoid it here, but Arielle calling this “fiction” and saying that *I* or protected grids are the ones doing a disservice to creators has forced me to spell it out in detail, yet again. I’m sorry for having to point this out but your content is wide-open on HG, and that is at odds with commercial in-world projects. I’d love to see OpenSim and HG grow, but in a deliberate growth of unprotected full-perm content where everyone shares everything.

            The differences between closed/protected grids and open hypergrid-enabled grids could be embraced (just as the differences between ethnic groups can be, and I can have chinese takeout tonight for supper). These differences can be highlighted, welcomed, embraced. Instead I see this blog and other individuals trying to use them to divide the community, with it’s constant publishing of the same closed-vs-open and exportable-vs-protected charts each month. It’s really two communities with 99% overlap in goals and software and methods but one small difference, protected content. I don’t really think we need to divide them, but work together to grow the community as a whole. And if the open one tries to claim they can do the protected content too, expect the person who implemented Halcyon permissions (me) to toss a red flag on the play.

          •' Fanny says:

            And there’s always the risk that somone will copy a grid’s OARs and share them on torrent websites…

          •' Jim Tarber says:

            “And there’s always the risk that somone will copy a grid’s OARs and share them on torrent websites…”

            Yes. That’s why it’s important that Butch and the rest of us limit OAR exports of content that the region owner did not create, and that is critically important when it is not full-perm content.

          •' Butch Arnold says:

            Very good points Jim.
            I have been a strong advocate for protecting content in OpenSim since 2008.
            At DigiWorldz, we do not allow a user to have an OAR file unless it only contains only items where the content creator has Full permissions on the item.. (Copy/Mod/Transfer) and we do not allow any external instances of OpenSim to connect to our grid.
            Additionally, we have only one user with God permissions on our grid who isn’t an owner and this person is a trusted manager.
            Obviously, our integrity in this cannot be proven beyond the trust we’ve earned from our users, but thus far, those who deal with us on a daily basis feel like they can trust us, and as a person with integrity and honestly, I would never betray this trust.
            As management, we have the ability to download an unfiltered oar, login as one of our users, create a copy of a user’s inventory, etc.. but we internally hold ourselves to a high degree of accountability.
            We never allow a user to have an unfiltered OAR or IAR file which ensures they are only able to obtain content in which they have full permissions anyway.
            This has, at times caused some disappointment from some of our users who expect a full copy of their inventory, or a full copy of their OAR, but we do not waiver, our policy is to never allow this in order to protect content creators.

            We always try to educate our users and let them know, almost everything can be stolen by using copybot, in any grid, including yours and SL.

            We’ve looked over the standard “Export” code in OpenSim and can confirm, from at least my position, it’s useless as it is not usable in it’s current form and can only give one a false sense of security.
            A mutual friend had attempted porting some of the Halcyon permission code to a version of 8.2pf and while some things seemed to work as they should, many other things did not, but we hope to one day do some more work with this to try to bring some type of “Workable” solution in a situation where the grid does not allow external instances of OpenSim to connect, and management strongly watches out for the content creator’s rights.

            While it may seem at times like IW should not be counted as an OpenSim grid, I for one believe you should be.
            I’ve looked over your code, I’ve setup a test grid, I’ve used it and played with it, and I for one am impressed at the work you folks have done and am indeed very thankful for the code you’ve contributed and the reports you’ve made back to core, etc. I know many think Halcyon should not be included, but that would be like saying Ubuntu, or CentOS should not be included as a Linux OS.. yes, your code is very different in many areas, but there are still enough similarities, shared goals, and things to be learned where both sides could benefit.

            Maybe in the future, both sides could work towards a common goal with a better method of interconnectivity where many of these issues could be addressed in some way.. until then, we can only do what we can do and I for one will continue to educate and make sure our users know the limitations of our platform and continue to protect the content where I can.. that’s all we can do for now.

          •' Arielle says:

            So your grid opts to screw the consumer/user for a full backup of the content they have obtained legally with either free or paid for licenses but that doesn’t have full perms on all items, either because the creator didn’t know how to or a bug in opensim software changed a perm. Many creators also simply set certain permissions out of habit not realizing the implications for their customers when it comes to dealing with anti-consumer grids such as yours.

          •' Butch Arnold says:

            Hi Arielle,
            Imagine you are a content creator.. you have made a product and you have sold it as no copy. This means the creator’s intention is to allow you only one copy of the item you bought. Let’s say the item came from Kitely’s marketplace and was delivered to the user on our grid. They now have their item and they can use it as they please. One day, they decide to buy a region on another grid with the intention of having a region in both grids. They request an OAR file of their region so they can take it to the new grid to have it loaded. The item they previously bought from the marketplace is rezzed inside the region, so when we make the OAR file for the user, they can then go to the next grid, have them upload the OAR file and voila! This user now has 2 copies of the item instead of the single copy they purchased.
            So Implying we “OPT to screw the consumer” is a one sided view.
            We instead opt to protect the creator in this instance to the best of our ability as it is the right thing to do, so we do not allow a “Copy” of no copy items to be taken from our grid if we can avoid it.
            We do the same with no mod items as we can’t be sure the oar won’t be taken to a standalone where the user would have god powers, and we do the same with no transfer items for the same reason.

            If you were the content creator in this instance, you would appreciate the fact we do things the way we do.

            The same way you go to Walmart or another store and buy a DVD… you’re not allowed to “Burn” a copy of this DVD and give it to a friend.. etc..

            We can’t control a creator setting the wrong permissions on an item, all we can do is go by the permissions which have been set… if the creator has made a mistake, then the user will need to contact the creator.
            We as grid owners have an unwritten moral responsibility to the content creators to do things this way.

            All of our users know up front, we do provide OARS and IARS but they will be filtered to protect the content which is not full perm.
            In contrast, some grids will not provide IAR or OAR files to their users at all.. or, there are grids where it doesn’t matter what the permissions are, the user can have a full backup of everything, regardless of the intended permissions.
            I’ve heard the argument from both sides, but I have chosen to side with the content creators on this issue and will continue to do so.

          •' Arielle says:

            >”One day, they decide to buy a region on another grid with the intention of having a region in both grids.”

            That is a valid scenario for restricting that product and so therefore it follows that if the user decides to close his account on your grid and move to the new one, you will allow that product to be included in the OAR or IAR, correct?

            “We do the same with no mod items as we can’t be sure the oar won’t be taken to a standalone where the user would have god powers, and we do the same with no transfer items for the same reason.”

            This is where things get a little flaky. Your first and foremost contractual obligation is with a user paying you for the use of the services you provide. You have no moral or contractual obligation with the Creator of another grid to police their content nor a moral obligation to presume the guilt of a user who asks for an archival copy of the products they have purchased or obtained for free from another user or creator.

            From the perspective of a creator, I would resent the need to deal with what is likely to be a somewhat irate customer looking for a resend of one or more items they purchased from me because you withheld those products from them. Multiplied by all the potential customers of all the users of your service that could become very tedious and time consuming to a Creator.

          •' Da Hayward says:

            yes Arielle but as a creator if your products are copy or full perm butch would have no hesitation in providing them in the oar. I think what he is saying is that if a creator makes a product no copy no mod no transfer is that he has no right to include it in an OAR being moved to another grid and rightly so. If the creators says they are fine with it then its ok.

          •' Minethereé says:

            He, or any grid owner, actually has no “right” to not include a creator’s own items rezzed in a region the creator wants to move, nor in withholding a full backup of said creator’s inventory, whatever perms they set on their own stuffs.

            Now some grid owners (commercial grid owners) have made a moral judgement call based upon their own sense of morals.;..nothing is to say they are right, or even wrong…but it is “their” morals. No grid owner all of a sudden becomes “the person who knows what is best for their customers” just because they can run a grid….anyone can do that.

            Of course we can go back to that a creator accepts this as part of being a citizen of said grid in the first place…but this also presumes that any grid owner has their creators best interests in the first place, or is merely finding the words to argue for limiting their customers which forces them into a lock-in situation with their grid… that is keeping their profit margins up and trying to get more of it.

            Some few people have made up so much nonsense that when the smokescreens have been pierced one can easily see it for being bullshit. OTOH, it is obvious that some people also like to feel they are protected and in their mother’s womb and won’t deal with reality otherwise.

            Of course this really all boils down to, in whatever words, limiting customers the freedom of choices, even if they knew of that in the first place…which most don’t.

            Customers being both creators and the vast larger percentage of “customer/users”.

            And of course that other basic issue of appeasing creators wants even at the expense of the majority of regular users seems to me a little out of wack in the first place.

            But as things are many (but certainly not all by a far stretch) grids are in such a desperate need to not only get creators in the first place due to their own choice of business model, that it already has builtin stress on the overall system.

            But really, if we all did actually agree on one thing, it should be the regular user experience, stop dealing with all this whose is bigger than whose nonsense, let the Kitely market go ahead and have those headaches, and all this talk would mostly come to a halt…talk, I should point out, that only comes from a few places who best interests are served by retaining their own creators and screw their other customers.


          •' Da Hayward says:

            i definitely agree with the lets stop all this nonsense about who is bigger.
            But if a creator creates something then they can take it to their next grid and if its their creation it should be included in the OAR. I do know some creators don’t seem to want their products on every grid.
            But that’s their decision I guess. ( I thought more exposure would be better for them). Recently on another thread a couple of Grid owners were accused of wrong doing by providing OAR’s with everything on them so how do these grid owners protect themselves? They give the OAR out with everything on and are called thieves, they Don’t give the full OAR out and are accused of with holding content…seems to be a no win situation for them

          •' Minethereé says:

            I agree as to it seems a no win situation…”as these discussions have been blown out of proportion by people intent upon doing so for their own self-interests”.

            And it is a no win situation even so because of all the egos around who want one thing or another and they are right and that is that.

            As I said it takes people being able to see past the smokescreen thrown up by some.

            All this perms stuff could easily not be so often a source of such comments as we see here and multiplied exponentially in other places.

            I mean really, doesn’t everybody in the entire experience of ours know full well that SL has been clear that nothing can go out and that your stuffs is really their stuffs?

            It’s really the same in any commercial grid, but especially on the closed ones, as their customers are further limited from even moving their stuffs anywhere else they want due to hypergrid functionality issues also being blown out of proportion.

            It often occurs to me that there has been some kind of bend in reality in these discussions.

            What I would suggest is that people stop taking “possible” edge cases and deal with the real problems….perhaps, this is done intentionally to take the people’s eyes away from other matters that are likely of far more worthiness to discuss? something to think about anyway.

            That people stop saying things like “it is possible to steal”…nobody all across the (real) world can possibly make anything and everything perfect. The closest that comes to that is a dictatorship (although a good debate could ensue as to whether or not some places are already dictatorships in our little spaces.

            And there is absolutely no reason for anyone to suggest that such things that are basic to freedoms and that are actually fun things…that of hypergridding, that of god powers, etc. as being some kind of ogrish thing people should avoid at all costs (and some people have been convinced of this—even tho they could simply turn their computer off or just log out and be back to their safe “real homes” toot sweet (yes I borrowed toot sweet).

            So let us delve into this further. Those grid owners who say they are protecting people by denying god powers or hypergating…how about they deny themselves god powers also? I mean, one can easily see that this is some kind of power play.

            Why anyone would think some person they don’t actually know is less likely to steal than any others is ridiculous, really. One can imagine that some few want the god powers all to themselves…this is where some would have us go, and is in reality the case in several grids.

            getting tired now lol

          • Minethere — I agree, mostly, except that it doesn’t really put the creators ahead of customers to limit the possibility of exports from a grid. I’m not talking about grids like DigiWorldz or Kitely here, that filter content. But completely closed grids that don’t even offer it as an option to creators. There is zero actual security benefit for creators of most content (with the exception of scripted content) to be on a closed grid, since the crooks use copybot, and that works on any grid. All it does it limit the number of potential customers.

            The grid’s actual selling points would be something else, like their community, say, or their events, or whatever it is that brings people to the grid. Attempts to spin “closed” as “more secure” are just that — spin. The only folks who benefit from a grid being closed are, typically, the grids themselves since they can lock in their users. If the rest of their offerings make up for it, that might work out okay.

            The iPhone locks people into their hardware ecosystem, but the usability advantages work for enough customers that they can do this. And part of the reason they’re able to offer usability is the limited hardware options, so part of the spin there is actually justified.

            Other reasons to have a closed grid into providing a private environment for, say, persecuted minority groups (LGBT’s in Russia, say), for elementary school classes, or for proprietary role playing games.

            SL and InWorldz offer strong communities and enough other value that they’re both able to charge significantly higher for land than other grids. But the export controls don’t benefit either the creators or the residents. It forces creators who want to sell to the hypergrid and residents who want to travel the hypergrid to have to create second accounts on other grids.

            So far, that hasn’t been a significant obstacle for users of either SL or InWorldz, so it’s very likely that they’ll be able to continue this strategy until the virtual worlds platform as a whole becomes obsolete and we all move on to some VR-first kind of environment and the whole closed-or-open thing becomes completely moot.

          •' Minethereé says:

            I think we both mostly agree with each other in these comments, Maria.

            I haven’t been referring to purpose driven closed grids…those are a given (as in schools).

            I don’t really agree, but with caveats, that core opensim has not presented issues for such grids you mention. I think what is being said here and what has been said in associated comments that are more indirect for your readers proves this to be so.

            Even to the attempts by some who say they want us all to be a big family (but whom hasn’t really) but that is “their” big family they want.

            Any half intelligent human can see where things have been going and I don’t think those who would say otherwise are actually stupid, just that their thinking is a bit unrealistic and misinformed because it sits well in their minds, it fits with their own needs usually.. I have seen lots of people do that, form conclusions based upon another’s misinformation, then take it as their own, and the entire thought process becomes like something from another dimension or some LSD trip like I used to have….ummm hmm

          •' Jim Tarber says:

            Maria wrote: “There is zero actual security benefit for creators of most content (with the exception of scripted content) to be on a closed grid”

            That’s the kind of “closed vs open” misinformation we’ve been complaining about. Many objects are useless without the scripts, so how exactly is a copybot going to help here? As I explained with my social product above, only a closed grid can protect it. And it can be 100% safe, if the permissions system is implemented correctly, and asset IDs are protected correctly. This is why many creators are fine with providing products on one grid but not others. Your mileage may vary between closed grids with various degrees of protection depending on whether they respect creators’ permissions choices when they sell a product, but its wide open on any hypergrid-enabled grid. The claim that closed grids are just as bad due to copybot is just an excuse by those promoting hypergrid for more than it was intended for (i.e. including commercial trade with “permissions” that are completely ineffective).

            MT’s pro-buyer “rights” comment below is equally misguided and ignores the fact that creators get to specify the license for any product. Buying it on one grid has no implicit permission for use on another grid unless the copyright holder grants the buyer that license. And the buyer has no claim to say “but I paid for it” because they purchased it with certain permissions, on a specific grid. You can wish it was different but unless you’ve purchased a multi-grid license, or the creator has explicitly granted the product licensed for use on other grids, then it’s yours only on the grid it was purchased.

            They hypergrid has all kinds of positive benefits. It’s ideal for organizations and schools and various groups. I really don’t understand the need to spread claims that it is suitable for all the things it’s terrible at, namely permissions-based protections. It just weakens the argument for the many actual benefits, and creates drama when a creator finds out someone is using their product on a grid that has no permissions protections and it’s been copied all over. I think we should be promoting the strengths of both open and closed grids, not their weaknesses. It would be like suggesting how easy it is to visit several closed grids “just by relogging”… it’s not one of their strengths!

          •' Fanny says:

            “Many objects are useless without the scripts” – so all the trees, houses, mesh clothes, system clothes, hair, skin, eyes, shoes, mesh hands, feet, boots, landscaping buildings etc. are useless?

            I’m actually struggling to think of items that most people use/buy that would be useless without the scripts.

          •' Jim Tarber says:

            “so all the trees, houses, mesh clothes, system clothes, hair, skin,
            eyes, shoes, mesh hands, feet, boots, landscaping buildings etc. are

            Of course not. I didn’t even come close to saying that. Most of that cannot be protected against copybots since they must be delivered to the viewer in order to render the object.

            However, some content can, and closed grids do protect some content, and as important as scripts are (in some cases, not all), that protected content includes more than just scripts.

            For example, configuration notecards with information private to the creator, such as API keys, private URLs, or even all the work to set up a complex animated object are also protected, only on a closed grid, if the notecard is not full-perm.

            I’m not saying the items that can be copybotted have no value; I’m saying the inverse: the ones that *can* be protected by closed grids are important too and that protection should be recognized as important to many creators. And unlike on closed grids, there is no way to provide that protection if delivery includes regions on hypergrid-enabled grids.

          •' Minethereé says:

            I wasn’t writing that to you, per se, Da…I just have found you to be a safer place to comment on unless I start my own comment lol

          •' Da Hayward says:


          •' Butch Arnold says:

            My first and foremost “personally chosen” responsibility is to protect the content in our grid, no matter if it was made by one of our users or not, it does not matter to me. My first “chosen” obligation is to protect the content. If the content is a full perm item, then there is no protection needed on my part.
            I will always honor the permissions on an item over a user’s request.
            If a user insists their backup should include an item which is not full perm, if they can have the content creator tell me in an email it is ok to include the item, then i will, otherwise, the user can be upset all they want.. I will not allow it out of the grid.
            If the user were to tell me to close the account on our grid and let them take it with them, I still will not allow it out of our grid unless the content creator specifically tells me it is ok to let it go.
            Some may not like this position, but it is the position I have chosen to take, and I’ll stay with it as it is my choice as the grid owner to make that rule.

            My first obligation is always to protect the content, as I feel this is of the utmost importance, and some may disagree, and that’s fine, but it is my choice and the path I have chosen.

          • Jim — I think you’re conflating two issues here. One is exportability, and the other is implementation.

            Some grids offer full exportability, some grids offer no exportability, and some grids opt for a mixed approach.

            And some grids implement it well, some grids implement it badly, and some grids are just so-so.

            Saying that some grids implement mixed exportability badly does not mean that mixed exportability is a bad approach. Just that some grids do a bad job of it.

            As you mentioned, some grids promise creators one thing and deliver another, or over-promise and underdeliver, or change policies mid-stream without properly dealing with existing content.

            However, other grids do it well and consistently. Kitely, for example, offers a mixed exportability approach where original creators have full control over the export permissions, and the policies are consistently enforced through the markets, through hypergrid teleports, and through OAR exports and all other functionality of the grid.

            It is a tricky thing to pull off, and I agree with you that it’s a lot easier to implement an all-or-nothing system. A mixed approach requires a great deal of planning, technical acumen, communication skills and business management ability to pull it off.

            Grids that don’t have that in place should either outsource their infrastructure to a provider who can handle it, or opt for all-or-nothing. And if they do plan to switch to a mixed approach at some point in the future, they need to lay the groundwork for that well in advance so that creators don’t get a nasty surprise.

          •' XMIR Grid says:

            Kitely may have reasonable control of what happens on their own grid, but once something has been “exported” via the Kitely Marketplace to other grids, all bets are off for what happens to the item.

          • That’s a separate issue, and true for all exportable content. My point is that Kitely lets creators decide what is exportable and what isn’t, and does it in a consistent, predictable, reliable way.

            This means that creators don’t have to pick one of the all-or-nothing grids — either everything is exportable or nothing is. They have a “have your cake and eat it, too” option.

            This is particularly critical for creators who have a mixed content collection.

            For example, they might decide that their basic prim content should be exportable, since there is no added security benefit to keeping it on a closed grid. (There is currently no way to protect against copybots.) This way, they give folks a convenient, legitimate, reasonably priced way to get the content, reducing the demand for pirated goods significantly, while at the same time making additional revenues from what was previously an inaccessible market.

            But they might decide to keep high-end, scripted content limited to a secure, closed environment. This kind of content is copybot-proof since you can’t steal scripts, so keeping it on a closed grid makes sense from a security point of view. By selling the content on Kitely, and marking it “non-exportable” they can ensure that it stays safe.

            This seems to be a very popular approach with creators, since the Kitely Market has been really taking off, while all other attempts at online marketplaces for OpenSim have failed. Plus, much of the growth in Kitely Market content has been on the exportable side, showing that merchants are increasingly comfortable with selling some of their products to the hypergrid.

          •' XMIR Grid says:

            I would have less doubt about exporting highly scripted items exactly because the script cannot be copied, so the item becomes essentially useless if copybotted.

            I think you underestimate the revenue potential of “simple” but easily copy-bot able items, including animations and poses, skins and other wearables. Houses fall in the same category. These are the items that carry most of the creators in SecondLife and makes it worthwhile (for some even to make a living). Only a handful master the advanced items you talk about.

          • That’s the opposite of how it works.

            If you export a scripted item to an open grid, where users can connect their own regions, they have access to the underlying database and crooks can, if they want, change themselves to be the owner of the item and do anything they want.

            As a result, keeping a scripted item on a closed grid adds a level of security.

            For regular items, there is no additional security. As far as crooks are concerned, selling a dress in SL or on InWorldz is exactly the same as selling it on OSgrid or Metropolis. The crooks just use copybot to steal it without even bothering to buy it first. So selling it on a closed grid (or marking it “no export” on Kitely) does nothing for security. It just makes it harder for legitimate customers to buy and use it.

            So a merchant selling regular, non-scripted items, selling it exportable to the hypergrid means more customers and more income, with the same exact copybot risks as selling it closed.

            A merchant selling high-end, expensive scripted items, selling it exportable to the hypergrid adds the risks of crooks stealing the underlying scripts, and may — or may not — be worth the extra income.

          •' XMIR Grid says:

            You usually don’t have access to the asset table in the database unless you are the grid owner. So any serious grid owner will not let their users have access to the human readable data file for scripted items.

          • Okay, operating on the principle that crooks who want to steal scripts already know this … you create your own minigrid. It takes about five minutes. You bring any content you want to it. You have access to the entire database.

            The only way to protect scripted content in the open metaverse is to use server-side applications. This is the direction a lot of software development has been moving to, anyway, in many genres.

            So you have your main scripts running on your own server, or a rented server, or a virtual machine, or in the Google cloud or wherever. And the items you sell are just thin clients. You control access by tracking credentials. So a stolen piece of content only gives the crook access to the client-side code, not the big juicy server-side application.

            Then you use an out-of-band authentication mechanism, so that if crooks get into your client code, they can’t use it to abuse the system. For example, each legitimate customer gets a separate, unique, individual access code when they pay for the product, and each code can only be used once and if a customer has a problem with their code, they have to contact customer support to get a new one. A crook filing customer support requests constantly asking for new activation codes would set of all kinds of alarm bells.

          •' JozeeTungsten says:

            Unfortunately, lsl is designed to be written in snippets and included in prims. Think of how javascript works on a web page. Also, as scripts are for some unaccountable reason currently stored in a blob in the asset table, they are already being downloaded from the server, which in itself causes an increase in packet traffic to the detriment of all concerned. Why not just introduce database encryption, or at least encrypt some critical fields?

          • You wouldn’t write your server application in LSL. You’d write it in PHP or C# or Ruby on Rails or Python or whatever your preferred development framework was. Only the client-side snippet would be in LSL.

            And by “server” I don’t mean “grid server.” I mean something like the Amazon cloud, the Google App Engine, or some random server you rent in a data center somewhere.

            Sorry for the confusion there.

            Though, in OpenSim, you COULD write a module that does run server-side on the grid’s own server. Grid currency systems, for example, are often these kinds of modules. They aren’t written in LSL either.

          •' JozeeTungsten says:

            You cannot just write an arbitrary piece of code and include it in Opensimulator. Well you can and it becomes available on your simulator version only. You need to approach the dev team with the idea, ask for it to be included in the project so you can gain access to the git hub etc. etc. This is way beyond what most folks have in mind when building something. More to the point it requires access to Visual Studio and expertise in C#. The former is not cheap and the latter is usually acquired through computer science degrees and years of experience.

          •' Fanny says:

            or why bother sending the souce code of scripts over HG?, couldn’t just the binary be sent?

          •' JozeeTungsten says:

            There is no binary code. Its a scripting language.

          •' Fanny says:

            Really? Wow, no wonder OS scripts lag the sims to death once you get a few dozen running.

          •' Magnuz Binder says:

            Even if LSL spells out “Linden Scripting Language”, and scripting languages, unlike programming languages, traditionally don’t require a compilation step, many scripting languages today are compiled before running, to speed up execution. Examples are Javascript on the Google V8 engine and LSL/OSSL on the OpenSimulator XEngine.

            XEngine first translates LSL/OSSL code into C# code (the native programming language of the OpenSimulator servers), and then compiles it into bytecode in an executable DLL (dynamic link library). This is done the first time any new LSL script is run on a simulator. It is technically quite possible to just distribute the DLL, and there is even a setting in the OpenSim.ini to permit pre-compiled DLL’s: TrustBinaries.

            However, unlike the limited LSL/OSSL, not permitting any actions that could damage or really compromise a server, a DLL can very well wipe, change or transmit any file the file system gives it permissions on. It could turn a server into a spam bot, use it for DoS attacks or a lot of other really nasty things. That’s why using DLL’s, unless they’re from a trusted source or run in a environment sandboxed beyond the capability of most OpenSimulator users, is a really bad idea, and the option in the OpenSim.ini also comes with a strong warning:

            ;# {TrustBinaries} {AllowScriptCrossing:true} {Accept compiled binary script code? (DANGEROUS!)} {true false} false
            ;; Allow compiled script binary code to cross region boundaries.
            ;; If you set this to “true”, any region that can teleport to you can
            ;; inject ARBITRARY BINARY CODE into your system. Use at your own risk.
            ;; YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!
            ; TrustBinaries = false

          •' XMIR Grid says:

            Sorry, I lost my bearing here for a bit with the goings on in London.

            Maria, I think you are confused both from the technical sides of the issue to the commercial side of content development.

            There are very few serious developers that are interested in publishing their content on OpenSim grids where their creations can meander freely between server instances. They will both be looking for content protection and a commercial upside that is equivalent to or better than spending their time elsewhere.

            Some grids have maybe cracked the code better than others for handling this, but it does not help OpenSim (the platform) an iota if these grids sit on their precious secret and not help getting it into OpenSim core. It also does not help that OpenSim core developers stop every effort to get better support for commercial transactions and content protection into OpenSim core, unless it specifically gains Avination! – Which now is bankrupt, so why they heck do they even count any longer?

          • Not really understanding what you’re getting at there.

            I agree that high-end script developers are short on the ground in OpenSim. There are a few though, and have back-end database servers. Off the top of my head, Virtec does that. So does Gloebit. Even I had database-driven content! And my development skills are VERY minimal and my back-end database was either a WordPress site or a Google App Engine thing or even a Google Spreadsheet.

            My point is that you can’t steal this back-end content just by having access to the in-world content. They live totally separately, and communicate via some kind of API. So whether a grid is open or closed is irrelevant.

            And, again, non-scripted content is generally stolen with copybots, so whether a grid is open or closed is irrelevant.

            The only time a closed grid adds security for content creators is with high-end in-world scripts. This is a meaningful level of security for these kinds of content developers.

            Improving the functionality of export permissions is nice, and I would encourage OpenSim developers to work on this to make it easier for filtered grids to better offer content filtering by having a separate “export” permission like Kitely does instead of having to cludge something together by looking at some combination or other perms.

            I agree that it would be nice to see the export perms that Avination developed be more fully tested, debugged, and made a lot more usable so that any grid could have off-the-rack content filtering without having to fiddle with it.

          • Okay, as far as I know, you’re a developer and I’m not (correct me if I’m wrong) so I don’t want to say something like, “I don’t think you understand how scripting works.”

            But I have been covering cybersecurity, as my day job, in one form or another for the past twenty years (most recently for CSO magazine:, and previously for Securities Industry News, CIO magazine and Computerworld) so I do have the capacity to understand something if it is explained to me slowly and using short words.

            Is there some aspect of OpenSim security I’m missing here? I’d like to know if that’s the case, because I write about this a lot. Or are we just talking about two totally different things, and just talking past each other?

          •' XMIR Grid says:

            Talking past each other.

            1. The owner of Avination is often referred to as the “lead developer” of OpenSim, and she has frequently vetoed initiatives that would have brought OpenSim core closer to having better currency and transaction support. We can only imagine why.

            2. It does not help OpenSim as a whole if Kitely sit tight on their export “technology” when as soon an item gets off the Kitely Marketplace it is basically free for all to mop it up. If they want to grow the market – and I presume they do as the owner of the marketplace, work to get the stuff into OpenSim core. But then again there is 1 above…
            (I think the export permission was something the Singularity developers created together with Cinder, and had nothing to do with Avination, which always was a closed grid for which export permissions would be irrelevant).

            3. It does not help market creation that Kitely, the grid, shall sit and dictate where merchants on Kitely the Marketplace can have their demo items displayed, if they can have in-world stores elsewhere, set rules for how content is presented and categorized out from PC US rules or prudish ME standards (not sure what drives them actually). For a true market to thrive it must account for different cultural norms and customs around the globe, as different as these may be in the countries and regions grids operate out of. If you try to shoehorn everything into something that goes everywhere, it gets bland and boring. In the same manner as tourists travel the world to explore, experience and make exotic purchases, likewise should those Hypergrid travelers be able to – even on a common marketplace.

            4. Most content creators – at least when they get more professional, also have financial ambitions for their creations. Meaning they will spend their effort and time where the reward is higher. OpenSim as a technology platform will never attract such people unless it can offer both reasonable content protection and financial reward. This is both a technical and cultural issue which is not solved by fostering a free for all to copy everything attitude. In the real world there are free lunches, but not always. Someone and everyone have to pick up the bill at the end of the day.

            5. All the most successful open source projects are used to generate massive amounts of revenue based on commercial use of the software despite the software being free. This does, however, ensure both continued development and refinement of the software, but also proliferation. Most of these projects allows paid-for development financed in a variety of ways. OpenSim seems completely allergic to, and incapable of setting up even the most rudimentary organization to allow for such financing.

            6. A project without a roadmap will eventually fail.

          • I actually agree with all your points except number 2 — Kitely has donated some filtering code, and the marketplace permission they use are proprietary to their marketplace. I can see why they don’t want to donate that code — it’s kind of their bread-and-butter, and would only be useful for grids that wanted to set up a similar competing marketplace.

          •' XMIR Grid says:

            In this case it probably would serve to strengthen their marketplace. I believe a separation of Kitely the grid and Kitely the Market would be good for everyone, and would encourage larger participation overall.

          •' JozeeTungsten says:

            Absolutely dead on. Especially number 5.

          •' noxluna says:

            wouldnt it be nice if kitely then shared the export code with the rest of opensim, so all could could choose to benefit their grids and customers/creators

          •' Fanny says:

            Would be nice if the big(er) grids could implment some sort of secure status, so scripts etc. could be transported across the HG without problem, but would be blocked for exported to non-secure home grids and extracted. That won’t happen of course as we’re talking about Open Sim here and such a feature would require co-operation between grids.

          • There is a way to filter content so that it is only taken to approved grids, or so that users can only hypergrid teleport to approved grids. I believe YrGrid does something like this.

            Every grid owner can decide on their own which other grids they do or don’t connect to.

            The problem with automating something like this is say I’m running the Super Criminal grid. I set it up with all possible protections in place. All the content comes in. Then I go “Bwa ha ha ha!” and turn all those protections off and everyone gets to throw a big party and steal everything.

            So it becomes a question of trust. Who do you trust? With standard filtering, you either trust everyone or trust nobody, and then it’s a lot easier to manage. Either you allow certain kinds of content to travel out, or you don’t. And you don’t worry about where it ends up.

            If you start trying to manage it, you get all kinds of political nightmares. How dare your grid say my grid isn’t trustworthy! Just for that, I’ll ban all travel to your grid! We occasionally get flare-ups of that on the hypergrid, but I don’t want to point you to any of them for fears of restarting all the drama!

          •' Minethereé says:

            Fanny “Perhaps its something Halcyon could consider – adding a secure HG-a-like to their code could make a radical change to “opensim”.”

            but then it would be called halcyonsim not opensim……..

          •' Jim Tarber says:

            >> Fanny “Perhaps its something Halcyon could consider – adding a secure HG-a-like to their code could make a radical change to “opensim”.
            > but then it would be called halcyonsim not opensim……..

            Indeed, providing travel between Halcyon grids is definitely something we’d like to see, eventually. And as for halcyonsim, maybe you should try some time. 😉

          •' Fanny says:

            I would except it needs to be complied from source – not something I have much understanding of, and then this part –
            “ presumes you also have web hosting, MySQL server for the database access and Whip for Asset store management.” which goes right over my head.

          •' Fanny says:

            How strange, a composer called Samuel Sim has wrote a theme tune to a show called THE HALCYON….

          •' Arielle says:

            I could be wrong as my memory is a little hazy because of all the talk that was going on at the time but I thought that Kitely did offer their export implementation to core but it was rejected by Melanie because she was adamant that the export function was only valid as long as all other permissions were granted also. Kitely though recognizing the potential of ripping the perms out on the HG, also believed (rightly imo) that the majority of customers would adhere to the set perms. That’s why Kitely has working export while Opensim trunk has a broken one.

          •' Arielle says:

            >”My understanding is that the default is for market content to be exportable, it’s opt-out, not opt-in. Furthermore, some grids misuse the transfer permission to *imply* exportable when that removes the ability for creators to actually sell transferable items on that grid without them leaving the grid.”

            Default was left as exportable to protect the spirit and intent of many legacy products where the original creator was no longer around to add on the exportable permission. In stock Opensim both versions .8.2 and current master, the export function does not work in the way Melanie said it did and as Butch already indicated is broken and unusable. Creators however can still configure their own regions to not allow exports of some or all their content on their own region in the gridcommon.ini.

            Contrary to the seeming implication throughout your posts that everyone in Opensim is maliciously breaking perms or lying about the security of their grids, most simply do not realize or are just doing their best to deal with a permission system that is currently a broken mess. Even with that however the holier than thou attitude of some from supposedly protected grids is a farce as anyone knows there are copybot viewers and other apps quite capable of ripping the content from anywhere. Your scripts might be safe but using that as a justification for not releasing your products for export is questionable seeing that even a quick google search of the terms “API keys+security+client+side+app” has numerous listings of various techniques to deal with such potential vulnerabilities. I am not a scripter but imo it is through phone home scripts that creators will have the best solutions to dealing with content theft but will have to lose the mindset that it can only be done in an “Protected” grid environment.

          •' Minethereé says:

            The thing that struck me the most was the nonchalant attitude Melanie seemed to me to have concerning these loses to customers.

            IW Owners are the same way as I know first person.

            I find it odd so many people have no problem at all with such things, and they will move on and just build something they already built once again.

            This is understandable with SL but should never be allowed in OpenSim.

            People should think of themselves better than to have anything to do with such grid owners. There ARE options and people are not just some UUID (well, they are… but) but actual feeling people who deserve to be treated better.

            They write off the time and any monies lost as if it is of no concern at all. This is why when I found I could save all that stuff to my own computer I knew I found the places to live in and enjoy.

          •' Moonrise Azalee says:

            Right… so a grid goes down, and suddenly the person can reupload all the items they lost with their name on it as creator. VERY few creators are okay with that. Kitely market has a lot of amazing creators on there, with amazing quality mesh original creations that take a person hours of work to complete. Those talented folks would’t be super excited about a person being able to just upload their works without their name attached to them any longer.

          •' Arielle says:

            For me I would be more concerned that a customer has lost their money and product than whether my name is on it. The customer after all would have paid me for the use of it so I should now also insist that I get free advertising from their use of the product? Creators can easily attach a notecard and/or put their name in with the name of the product as many already do anyway.
            Additionally on oar files the Grid admin saving the file simply specifies the –home switch and all creator names will be saved on those items:
            “If the –home option is specified then all names of creators from this world will be appended with links to their home world. It is not required that the service be operational; the information will be added and it will be available in all worlds that import this OAR.” Quoted from the Opensimulator Wiki under OpenSim_Archives. ( I would supply the link but then you wouldn’t see the post for 24 hours or so :))

            Sadly at this time IAR’s don’t have this ability yet. And I say sadly because as a consumer I like to know who to go to when stuff breaks, especially when I have paid for it.

          •' lmpierce says:

            Hi Arielle,

            Yes, outright links require moderation, although I’m usually much faster than 24 hours 😉 … One thing you might consider is posting your comment without the link, then providing the link as a Reply to your own comment. That comment with the link will be automatically withheld for moderation, but the main body of the comment will go through right away (unless it is withheld for some other reason). This would be most appropriate and helpful when you want to cite a source since that kind of lookup is more for verification after the fact anyways. You could make a note in your main comment that sources are pending your ‘reply’ comment. As you know, sometimes people write out a URL which sidesteps automatic moderation, but then it’s not nearly as convenient for the readers, so a second URL comment might give back the convenience without holding up the main comment.

            Let me just add that I strongly applaud your desire to cite sources. It not only adds greatly to credibility, it is very helpful for those unfamiliar with an issue to do follow-up reading. And even for those of us that are well-versed in these matters, one can spend undue time searching for the original source of something… I often want to review my own original sources of information and it can be daunting given the amount of information on the Web.

  12.' Alex Ferraris says:

    The time has come!
    Anyone who has regions, paying for regions on any grid that is charging you; get your oar and we will place the region FREE of charge for you in AviWorlds grid. Back ups daily, free oars when requested.
    I know AviWorlds hasnt been very stable lately but it is under control and you have nothing to lose. FREE !
    Feed it ! for free!

    •' Talla Adam says:

      Honestly Alex! Are you serious? What you are saying is give up paying what for most people in Opensim are reasonable prices from long standing proven hosts that give mostly stable services and generally good user support and go with AviWorlds with it known instability, lost content and money time and again and go with you, a grid owner that closes down all contact and ignores his customers when things goes pear shaped. Honestly Alex you sound more like a rogue that ever!

      I do you give you credit for trying but I really think you are dishonest now and a mischief maker that Opensim could well do without.

      •' Alex Ferraris says:

        It is your opinion. I have the right to give free regions to whom I see fit. This is competition. If you cant cook get out of the kitchen.
        I am not saying people should not pay. I am only offering my services.
        If they want to continue paying and feel it is safer thats their opinion I am not against that at all.
        I also say it on here that I do not think charging for a region is wrong. You do what you got to do… You want to charge a price and people think it is fair thats great!
        I am doing something else. I am not focusing on land to make a profit for AvIWorlds. at least not at this time.
        Here we go! Let the crucifixion begin!
        I have only one thing to say to all you haters out there! GO TRUMP!

        •' Da Hayward says:

          ok ok ok. This is enough! as Talla said she is giving you credit for trying. Aviworlds is back up on its own servers.
          That’s all that needs to be said.
          Any business between you and Butch (DigiWorldz) should be kept between you and Butch.
          Talla in my opinion has quite a bit to offer Open Sim as a whole with her opinions so the bit about if you can’t cook get out of the Kitchen was totally uncalled for. As the teacher says in the kindergarten playground…”play nice”

        •' Thelma Marks says:

          Go Trump? Are you trying to act like Trump and throw his name in here to throw the eyes off of you? lol. Maybe you and Trump should get together and start a grid 😉

      •' lmpierce says:

        I deleted a comment here for being completely off-topic.

  13.' Minethereé says:

    Hi Sara, I do hope you are doing well nowadays.

  14. I frequently get asked by grids to not talk about them when the news isn’t good. I understand their motivation, but that doesn’t help our readers, and it doesn’t help the community overall. Meanwhile, grids have plenty of outlets where they can run all-good-news-all-the-time — their websites, their social media feeds, in-world announcements, direct emails to residents, and a lot more. The Hyperica website only did positive stories. There have also been a few attempts to start all-good-news-all-the-time independent blogs but so far they haven’t gained much traction. (Hyperica only got a tiny fraction of HGB’s readership.) Though there are definitely niches that work — you can have an events-focused blog be all positive, or a fashion-focused blog.

    You’re welcome to start one, and I’ll be happy to run a free ad for it on this site.

    •' Moonrise Azalee says:

      I think (if you read the link posted by Sara) the reason isn’t due to ‘bad news’ – because after all, IW is still up there with most active users in a single grid – but that because it isn’t OpenSim technically. Lets face it – people always complain about IW being included in the statistics because most seem to feel its not opensim. I’ve met many people that have come to IW BECAUSE they read about it here, seemed like a logical next step after SL and not everyone cares about the HG, they just want stable cheap land on a grid that’s been around for a long time – so as a person who splits her time evenly between HG enabled grids and IW I’m glad it’s still included here, but I can see why others feel it shouldn’t be.

      • The “what is really OpenSim” discussion comes up here on a regular basis. There are many, many, many different branches of OpenSim. InWorldz is one of the older branches, but still a branch. There are many others. The Diva Distro is one popular distribution of OpenSim. There’s also ArribaSim, AuroraSim. It’s open source software so anyone can wake up one morning, add a few things, and make their own branch of OpenSim.

        If a grid’s branch goes too far off from mainline OpenSim, they create problems from themselves because then it’s harder for them to use new features developed for mainline OpenSim. They either have to do a lot of work to integrate those features, or throw out their entire codebase and start over. Avination and InWorldz and Kitely are the three biggest examples of grids that have veered off. Avination donated all their massive code improvements to OpenSim and has been working to combine the two lines, which is one way to do it. (Before they closed.) InWorldz also donated all their code as Halcyon, and the U.S. Army is now working on that part of it, and we might see some parts of it make its way into core OpenSim, and some parts of mainline OpenSim might make it into Halcyon (hypergrid teleports, the Army says, might be coming).

        Kitely was smart and kept their improvements separate from the main OpenSim codebase, so when a new version of OpenSim comes out, they do some testing, some patching, and then slide the updated code in without touching all their proprietary on-demand cloud-based load-balancing and Kitely Market stuff.

        I strongly recommend all grids making fixes and upgrades to OpenSim code to make their update, market it, get the biggest bang they can out of it, then donate the code to mainline OpenSim. That way, they get a second marketing opportunity — they’re good guys for donating code — the OpenSim code base improves — and the grid can still take advantage of the work of the rest of the community.

        Now, there might be a marketing benefit in saying “This isn’t OpenSim, it’s MARIAsim,” but basically, it’s all branches on the OpenSim evolutionary tree.

        I do understand the marketing appeal, though. As numerous reader surveys show (surveys where InWorldz respondents have always been a very large part), users don’t rate InWorldz particularly highly in technology. Positioning InWorldz as “just another OpenSim grid, but with higher prices, no exports, no varregions, and no hypergrid” makes it sound less attractive. And the data seems to show that InWorldz users, after they make the jump from SL and learn how to configure their viewers for other grids, then explore the rest of OpenSim, and, often, move to other grids. Even as new registered users in InWorldz are high, and the active users are still the highest of any OpenSim grid, over time, the number of both active users and regions has been falling.

        Since the summer of 2014, when InWorldz had 8,371 active users, it’s lost more than 3,000 active users — that’s more than a third of its active user base. And it’s lost more than 300 regions since its peak of 1,626. Meanwhile, other OpenSim grids have been growing. InWorldz still has a lot of strength — unless there’s some traumatic event, InWorldz may well outlive this generation of virtual worlds, and all my worries about its business model will have been proven wrong.

        But it is a very significant player for OpenSim — because of the way it brings in new users to the community, and its marketing efforts, it’s been the grid that registered the most new users — through 2014. In 2015, Kitely surpassed it slightly, and did so again in 2016.

        I did a bigger article on this here:

  15.' Serra Royale says:

    Good work on the article David. Just heads up you misspelled Mobius. It’s not a issue since Moebius is the common spelling just not the one we are using.

    •' Da Hayward says:

      David did great job on article, didn’t he.

    • David says:

      Thank you Serra for appreciation and heads up. I just made the correction and linked.

    •' Thelma Marks says:

      Any status on your inworldz script engine import to open simulator? I haven’t seen any news or updates on this effort.

      •' Serra Royale says:

        Sorry for lack of updates. We have currently gotten Opensim to load Phlox and recognize as its current script engine. however we still need to finish interfacing it for scripts to compile and run inworld. at this time Phlox loads and does nothing yet in Opensim. Our dev is currently dealing with issues irl and unabled to work on it. At this time we are looking how to progress this farther.

  16.' Rene says:

    I think it is important to keep reporting on the closed grids, especially InWorldz. There are dynamics happening in closed grids and the contrasts between the open grids say a lot about what is happening to the mix of the user base. I’d also like mention of the region counts and active counts in SL because that too is a good thing to compare and contrast against the entirety of the SL-like grids. All this data serves as a great backdrop to see the trends and to see how the next generation virtual worlds might fare. Things are changing – it is good to see where we’ve been to get a sense of where we are headed.

  17.' SkyLifeGrid says:

    Glad to see people getting along Alex Keep up the good work,,, Recent changes in my life have taken me away from opensim for a wile My father just passed and I just bought a house in Windsor so I am soo busy lately but you all have a great summer The Josh Boam will be back 🙂 Just need to get my life situated…

  18.' Woopsee says:

    Inworldz c-u-n-t-s like you should then stay the f out of other opensim grids then.